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On May 28 2012 15:20 Welmu wrote:Alright sorry I couldnt post it yesterday but here is one game vs MouzCCbiGs http://drop.sc/187407/d . It was my first time trying it out and I obviously made some mistakes, but I think its still good example how easily it can be beaten by Zerg.
I always appreciate pros offering feedback and stuff on these kinds of threads. So thanks Welmu! <3
But with that said, I think it needs to be noted that 99% of people play this game to have fun rather than trying to earn a living. Even if you win on ladder with a cool build just because your opponent didn't expect it, rather than because you had a super-solid plan, I think it's still reasonable to call it "viable" because it's "viable" for the 99% of people that just want to have fun. Pro players should obviously be solving their own problems and making their own builds that work for their skill level.
And secondly, there are a ton of "standard" builds out there that you'll see pros all the time that outright lose to X or Y build/tactic/composition. Just because they lose to it doesn't mean that's what every opponent is going to do against it. And with every build, the way it's operated, the way units are micro'ed and the decisions that are made within the game often make for dramatically improved or reduced effectiveness.
So, long story short, I don't think anybody should call a build bad (or not "viable".. whatever) just because they lost with it, or just because a pro wouldn't use it. 99% of players aren't pro, and just want to come on TL to look for a cool build they can use in their ladder games. I think if a build has a good idea behind it, or even wins in Masters with reliability, I'd say it's worth posting. Posting criticism purely to help the build grow should be welcomed, and posts that just say "this is bad" really don't add anything useful to the conversation, assuming it's met the prior criteria I mentioned.
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On May 28 2012 15:20 Welmu wrote:Alright sorry I couldnt post it yesterday but here is one game vs MouzCCbiGs http://drop.sc/187407/d . It was my first time trying it out and I obviously made some mistakes, but I think its still good example how easily it can be beaten by Zerg.
Thanks for the replay!
It's always nice to view a high level game. Sorry about my language earlier, I obviously didn't mean to offend anyone, Monk tends to troll me a lot.
as for the game:
why are you making 3 Stargates? My build is 2 stargates on 2 base, that's all I can support with constant production while teching to MS and getting air upgrades going.
I prefer 1 SG > Fleet Beacon > second Stargate > Mothership Asap
at 12:30 you have no idea where his tech lies, and just begin the Fleet Beacon. Your mothership should almost be completed at this time.
You run into chain fungals, and lose 2 Voidrays. It's really important to not lose any units, but okay we all make mistakes. I would like to see 1 phoenix to identify the threat. Once Fungal is on the field we need to gtfo!!!
At 15 minutes he is preparing an attack at your third. You throw down a 4th and 5th Stargate. This is like an antitiming, as you should be producing out of 4 Stargates right now.
Your mothership is not part of the battle, and you have very little cannon support at your natural. You also have a VoidRay Harassing the main, which is always nice, but it would be better with your army adding to the total firepower.
You have 9 Voidrays, 1 carrier, and no Mothership fighting against infestors in the middle of the map (okay not the middle exactly, but you are not using architecture or ramps to your advantage,) with idle units not participating in the battle. everything needs to be well spread and positioned defensively. You let him snipe the cannons without having your army in place, then you went army vs army too late without the help of any sort of static defense or mothership which is the entire point of my strategy 
You lose like 10 voidRays which are fighting on their own out in the middle, and the game spirals out of control.
Things I would consider:
Faster Mothership (like way faster, very crucial defensive unit)
Scouting Phoenix (need to identify where zergs gas is going, Mutas, hydra drops, infestors, all have very different responses but can all be held)
More Optimal Static defense (3/4 cannons at natural ramp, 1 in main on highground, less at third but clumped tighter)
More optimal engagement (army and mothership and cannons at the same time vs zerg army, not zerg army vs cannons then zerg army vs half of protoss army without using map architecture to your advantage)
Mothership pops at 16 minutes just in time to see the swarm invasion, poor momma wasn't there to defend everything.
I can tell that your an amazing player based on your mechanics and I feel like if you watch the game again and really tried to optimize your defense, you would have held easily.
Here is how I would try to engage.
At 15:30 I would have a Mothership and all of My Air units together splitting the difference between my natural and third, as soon as he commits to dumping energy into infested Terrans, I would attack move and try to hold my naturals ramp. You will snipe up most of the Infested Terrans before they even hatch, you will cloak everything and have micro opportunities to snipe overseers. You will also have a vortex at your disposal. When your air units are not scattered everywhere, and are positioned very optimally to deal all of the damage in a focused area (the natural ramp in this case), the zerg units just melt. Also you missed a chance to forcefield your natural ramp which would have slowed everything down temporarily and at least given you time to position more optimally. Also, you have 3 zealots which are holding a watchtower but they should be in the fight along with whatever you can warp in at the last minute. Honestly I don't even think that battle would have been close if you engaged better/ had the composition, that zerg army at 15 minutes is just not scary.
On May 28 2012 06:10 Fogetaboudit wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2012 05:47 Welmu wrote:
Im not really sure about timings, but to say once more zergs attacked on 3-4 bases with big infestor count and I had mostly void rays/some carriers/mothership done in one game and not done in one and I used void rays to pick off drones and harass a lot while building up big air army in behind and getting a lot of cannons, but both times I just got crushed by big Zerg army and mostly due big infestor counts pretty early in game. I can try searching for a replay tomorrow ^^ sorry to hear. You should never be in a position to lose your army, it's like a mech army, super expensive, strong in numbers. If he took the fight to your side of the map, with only infestors, and he beat Stargate units/ mothership support/ many cannons, with defensive positioning, and beat it with just infestors I would really like to see how the battle turned looked so I could study the game. Of course you will lose your army if your poking around the middle of the map versus mass fungal and no recall, I hope thats not what you are referring to.
I gotta say I think I nailed it here, we lost 2 VoidRays, and a third Voidray was not in battle.
While he had pretty much only infestors and won the fight, you didn't have a mothership or enough cannons, or a good engagement, or defensive positioning. Your positioning was very offensive as you have 7-9 VoidRays fighting in the open with no static defense participating.
It was nice to Study the game and I thank you for that, but this certainly doesn't prove the strategy is not viable. It might not be a viable strategy (I have my doubts against some builds) but this game doesn't really prove anything.
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Any experience on Shakuras ?
I have mixed feelings on that map. The fourth is for free after you take and defend the third, and there are ramps both on the natural and third. On the other hand, the distance between the natural and third is quite big and in open space. I've had a lot of Zergs attack the base where my army/mothership was not stationned in, and just roll over me. The fact that there isn't much area space to fit enough cannons doesn't help either ( especially at the natural, since you're walling with gates, forge etc.. ).
I'm considering doing a different build on Shakuras and Antiga ( on Antiga, taking the fourth is just too hard ).
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On May 28 2012 20:46 Nyast wrote:
Any experience on Shakuras ?
I have mixed feelings on that map. The fourth is for free after you take and defend the third, and there are ramps both on the natural and third. On the other hand, the distance between the natural and third is quite big and in open space. I've had a lot of Zergs attack the base where my army/mothership was not stationned in, and just roll over me. The fact that there isn't much area space to fit enough cannons doesn't help either ( especially at the natural, since you're walling with gates, forge etc.. ).
I'm considering doing a different build on Shakuras and Antiga ( on Antiga, taking the fourth is just too hard ).
I've had more luck taking expansion, that is under your main, closer to the center, as third and cannoning it.
Tried?
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On May 28 2012 20:57 Rimak wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2012 20:46 Nyast wrote:
Any experience on Shakuras ?
I have mixed feelings on that map. The fourth is for free after you take and defend the third, and there are ramps both on the natural and third. On the other hand, the distance between the natural and third is quite big and in open space. I've had a lot of Zergs attack the base where my army/mothership was not stationned in, and just roll over me. The fact that there isn't much area space to fit enough cannons doesn't help either ( especially at the natural, since you're walling with gates, forge etc.. ).
I'm considering doing a different build on Shakuras and Antiga ( on Antiga, taking the fourth is just too hard ).
I've had more luck taking expansion, that is under your main, closer to the center, as third and cannoning it. Tried?
Yeah I tried without success. There's too much open space between the natural and the third closer to the xel naga tower, Zerg can attack from two sides ( XNC, and between rock and main's cliff ), and there isn't much room to place cannons either. In the game I lost trying that, Zerg made mass hydras and kept attacking from that side, I didn't have enough cannons to defend.
Ohana is the perfect example of a good map to do this build: you can full-wall your natural, destroy the rocks, take your third, and there's ton of space to put cannons around the third. There's only one attack path for the Zerg: attacking at the third, cause the natural is blocked. So you can place your mothership at the third and easily defend anything there.
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On May 28 2012 21:23 Nyast wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2012 20:57 Rimak wrote:On May 28 2012 20:46 Nyast wrote:
Any experience on Shakuras ?
I have mixed feelings on that map. The fourth is for free after you take and defend the third, and there are ramps both on the natural and third. On the other hand, the distance between the natural and third is quite big and in open space. I've had a lot of Zergs attack the base where my army/mothership was not stationned in, and just roll over me. The fact that there isn't much area space to fit enough cannons doesn't help either ( especially at the natural, since you're walling with gates, forge etc.. ).
I'm considering doing a different build on Shakuras and Antiga ( on Antiga, taking the fourth is just too hard ).
I've had more luck taking expansion, that is under your main, closer to the center, as third and cannoning it. Tried? Yeah I tried without success. There's too much open space between the natural and the third closer to the xel naga tower, Zerg can attack from two sides ( XNC, and between rock and main's cliff ), and there isn't much room to place cannons either. In the game I lost trying that, Zerg made mass hydras and kept attacking from that side, I didn't have enough cannons to defend. Ohana is the perfect example of a good map to do this build: you can full-wall your natural, destroy the rocks, take your third, and there's ton of space to put cannons around the third. There's only one attack path for the Zerg: attacking at the third, cause the natural is blocked. So you can place your mothership at the third and easily defend anything there.
I prefer the third thats kinda far away which allows for easy fourth. I cannon natural and third even harder because you don't need that extra army strength to establish a fourth. It can still get tricky but if they split their army you can roll half of it with almost perfect retention and then roll the other half. If they kill a nexus 20 probes and 6 cannons and lose an entire army this is acceptable, imo.
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On May 29 2012 09:02 Fogetaboudit wrote:
I prefer the third thats kinda far away which allows for easy fourth. I cannon natural and third even harder because you don't need that extra army strength to establish a fourth. It can still get tricky but if they split their army you can roll half of it with almost perfect retention and then roll the other half. If they kill a nexus 20 probes and 6 cannons and lose an entire army this is acceptable, imo.
One major problem is that it keeps you on the defensive. I've had Zergs do this strat successfully: they do a regular build with a regular compo ( roaches hydras infestors or corruptors ), and starting attacking you when they're maxed, let's say 13-14'. At this time you've secured your third but your army is still small ( < 10 voids and a mothership ). While they attack, they double expo ( 4th and 5th ) and immediately take the gas. Then they repop with the same compo and attack again 2-3' later.
The consequence of this style is that at no moment you are in the position to harass / deny Zerg's expos. You can defend your third fine but you'll lose a third to a half your army each time. By the time you remake it, the next wave is coming. As a result, your army size is growing, but very slowly. Once you're in a position to secure the fourth, Zerg's on 6-8 bases and can afford trading entire armies every 3 minutes. Then as your main and natural get exhausted ( past the 20' mark ), you're only on 2 mining bases, and still far from the 200/200 max.
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@ Nyast:
This is one of the major problems of this strategy if you are facing a Zerg who instantly knows how to deal with it.
That's why I rely on killing off the Zerg bases as early as possible. So if I have the mothership out and can afford Recall, I start harassing with void rays as they can destroy hatcherys or tech buildings pretty fast.
Still, I have to experiment with this strategy a lot, but as Protoss you have to do the same as with other strategies: Deny Zerg bases as long as possible. But with Airtoss you can deny their bases a lot later as you rely on a fast Mothership.
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I hope this question has´t be asked yet but what do you think about what HOTS will do to this kind of strat?
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considering this 3rd with air way more than the robo version - forces the zerg to tech instead of massing tier 1 - really helps vs the all ins
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On May 29 2012 19:38 Lomasa wrote:
I hope this question has´t be asked yet but what do you think about what HOTS will do to this kind of strat?
I think it's still going to be viable.
Tempests with grades should work pretty nice against corruptors (possibly), and nexi will have recall.
Only thing I really gonna miss is mass cloak.
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On May 29 2012 18:18 Nyast wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2012 09:02 Fogetaboudit wrote:
I prefer the third thats kinda far away which allows for easy fourth. I cannon natural and third even harder because you don't need that extra army strength to establish a fourth. It can still get tricky but if they split their army you can roll half of it with almost perfect retention and then roll the other half. If they kill a nexus 20 probes and 6 cannons and lose an entire army this is acceptable, imo. One major problem is that it keeps you on the defensive. I've had Zergs do this strat successfully: they do a regular build with a regular compo ( roaches hydras infestors or corruptors ), and starting attacking you when they're maxed, let's say 13-14'. At this time you've secured your third but your army is still small ( < 10 voids and a mothership ). While they attack, they double expo ( 4th and 5th ) and immediately take the gas. Then they repop with the same compo and attack again 2-3' later. The consequence of this style is that at no moment you are in the position to harass / deny Zerg's expos. You can defend your third fine but you'll lose a third to a half your army each time. By the time you remake it, the next wave is coming. As a result, your army size is growing, but very slowly. Once you're in a position to secure the fourth, Zerg's on 6-8 bases and can afford trading entire armies every 3 minutes. Then as your main and natural get exhausted ( past the 20' mark ), you're only on 2 mining bases, and still far from the 200/200 max.
There's a reason why protosses do things like +1 4gates on 2 bases, or sending out a void ray and some other units to deny an expansion. You have to find some way of evening out things so that you're not just fighting down a full base while the zerg drones through the ceiling. But a lot of the timings are pretty well-known, off a FFE, and a zerg with the right information (relatively easy to come by these days) has a really good shot at just hard-countering the pressure, and then you're significantly behind as protoss.
Something I have been experimenting with lately is the 2gate expo. There has been a fair amount of recent discussion on opening with gateways as opposed to a FFE. I'm not fully sure whether or not it's worth using (as opposed to FFE), but it certainly brings a few benefits to the table:
-Your tech is waaaaaaaaaay faster because your are going to have a Core significantly earlier than you would if you were going forge first. Even if you do something greedy (if warranted) like dropping Nexus right before or right after Gate (which you can just cancel if you get hit by a timing), you are still going to have a faster Core and gas simply because you're spending that 300 on tech instead of Forge+Cannon. Now, there's something to be said about powering up tech on 2 bases with double chrono going down on upgrades, but the point here is that you will have an earlier Stargate if you tech directly towards it with a gateway expo.
-Because of a faster Stargate, you can do things like get 2-3 Sentries, then start dumping gas into that squad of Phoenixes. Really early Phoenixes are a total pain in the neck because you can wreck the queens at crucial early moments, which really messes with larva and creep spread. Also, the earlier you start making Phoenixes, the earlier you have a pool of energy banking up on those Phoenixes. Alongside the Sentries, having a steadily charging energy pool is one way of countering zerg's natural economical advantage, since you have a resource that grows over time. Often, this means killing stuff for free--both in the case of grav lifts and in well-positioned forcefields.
-You can get a Stalker out much sooner, this way. While it isn't going to provide the DPS of an early cannon, a Stalker can deny/punish overlord scouting, and that means you're threatening to do something like a 4gate, 5gate Nexus cancel, DT rush, or some other kind of 1base timing. So you force either a sac overlord or a blind response to the predicted pressure, and a blind response to one timing is often not going to be that effective against another (i.e. building spores blindly and then not having enough stuff to survive a warpgate push without taking significant damage). Sure, you have less gateways and upgrades, but the timings are much earlier. It's a trade-off to consider.
-Because the plan is to get a Core before a Forge, it means you can get +1 air weapons earlier than you would if you went Forge-Gate-Core. This seems to benefit Carrier timings more than anything else, since Carriers get enormous benefits from damage upgrades.
-Having actual mobile units on the map means you can walk across the map and attack your opponent, do pokes, deny the third quicker, etc. So the big trade-off here is that you're going to be down a base for a small portion of time, but you're not automatically defaulting to a 2base vs 3base situation, which often happens from a FFE.
I had honestly just assumed, for a while, that the FFE is better for air play because the fast expansion gives you 2 more gases, and you plan to make a bunch of cannons anyways. But that doesn't necessarily mean it's strictly better. I think there might be some serious merit to a build which has a significantly faster first stargate. It's much less passive, which is important when considering a zerg trying to get a lot of bases going.
I'm going to start posting some replays of this, when I have a bit more grasp on streamlining the build order. Right now, I'm just feeling it out and winging it, and I've also just been running into zergs that seem to think the correct response to a 1-gate is to roach-ling all-in into a bunch of banked forcefields. 
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This recently happened in the GSL on Ohana I believe. It was either STCurious or SlayerSYuGiOh that stopped this air strategy pretty easily. Without much mobility the skytoss is forced to established a 3rd base and ultimately a fourth while the zerg is able to as well establish bases and create a composition to defeat this. The one that works the best (that I've even experienced as surprisingly I've been 2 stargate phoenix into carrier rushed on KR diamond) is spore, infestor, queen, corruptor. I don't think that skytoss is the new go to strategy but it has some viability if it is done secretively and the zerg has no way to prepare. If the zerg knows about it it's almost an auto-lose if they know what to do.
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On May 29 2012 21:15 Felvo wrote:
This recently happened in the GSL on Ohana I believe. It was either STCurious or SlayerSYuGiOh that stopped this air strategy pretty easily. Without much mobility the skytoss is forced to established a 3rd base and ultimately a fourth while the zerg is able to as well establish bases and create a composition to defeat this. The one that works the best (that I've even experienced as surprisingly I've been 2 stargate phoenix into carrier rushed on KR diamond) is spore, infestor, queen, corruptor. I don't think that skytoss is the new go to strategy but it has some viability if it is done secretively and the zerg has no way to prepare. If the zerg knows about it it's almost an auto-lose if they know what to do.
edit: Actually I should be able to find the replay hopefully 
It's frustrating when people say "I saw a Stargate build lose, therefore, your Stargate strategy is not viable"
Your last sentence is pretty misguided, and based on nothing other than your own opinion. I don't mind when my build gets scouted, I actually prefer when my double stargate gets scouted quickly by the zerg on ladder, I want them to make the best composition, and I want to see if I can still roll it. It does wonders for the learning curve, and I get better games than when I just build order win versus some roach pressure.
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On May 29 2012 18:18 Nyast wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2012 09:02 Fogetaboudit wrote:
I prefer the third thats kinda far away which allows for easy fourth. I cannon natural and third even harder because you don't need that extra army strength to establish a fourth. It can still get tricky but if they split their army you can roll half of it with almost perfect retention and then roll the other half. If they kill a nexus 20 probes and 6 cannons and lose an entire army this is acceptable, imo. One major problem is that it keeps you on the defensive. I've had Zergs do this strat successfully: they do a regular build with a regular compo ( roaches hydras infestors or corruptors ), and starting attacking you when they're maxed, let's say 13-14'. At this time you've secured your third but your army is still small ( < 10 voids and a mothership ). While they attack, they double expo ( 4th and 5th ) and immediately take the gas. Then they repop with the same compo and attack again 2-3' later. The consequence of this style is that at no moment you are in the position to harass / deny Zerg's expos. You can defend your third fine but you'll lose a third to a half your army each time. By the time you remake it, the next wave is coming. As a result, your army size is growing, but very slowly. Once you're in a position to secure the fourth, Zerg's on 6-8 bases and can afford trading entire armies every 3 minutes. Then as your main and natural get exhausted ( past the 20' mark ), you're only on 2 mining bases, and still far from the 200/200 max.
I feel like your saying "if they trade a lot, you can be in trouble." This has always been a concern that deserves attention. I think trading becomes easier, and harder on different maps, and makes the build gets better or worse on certain maps as a consequence, but I don't think it's so much so as the strategy needs to be abandoned completely, at least on Shakuras.
To be honest I really like Shakuras, There is a natural splitmap, and while your inner bases can be sieged by static defense + creep pushing + a few broodlords, their inner base expansions are easy to harass in the early lategame, and the topcenter and bottom center bases are really easy to harass and secure throughout the entire game.
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@ ineversmile
I definitely feel like there are tons of improvements and refinements that could be done to the build. I'm excited that you are working on a gateway opener, can't wait to hear the results.
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Gateway oppening is a nice Idea.
Zerg are so used to tosses that play FFE, this can bring some tension back.
Things that shot in my mind, is 3 gate-stargate allin vs fast 3 hatch zerg, is it viable?
If zerg is not going 3 fast hatch, then something like Phoenix-expand would be suitable.
Just thoughts.
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Basically, here is what I'm set on for the earliest part of the build:
9 Pylon (high ground)-->Scout (I like information)
14 Gate
16 Pylon
17 Gas
Core/2ndGas right after that (not sure what the supply is at that point, probably 20ish), followed by a Zealot when 100 minerals is available.
I build a Sentry after Zealot, then either start my second gate or my Nexus, switching the order around depending on what I scout (right now I think gas=get the gate first, whereas no gas I get the Nexus first). Then I make a Stalker, so I have one of each unit (which is optimal, IMO, since they all work better together). Usually after that, I get a Stargate in my main followed by a Forge on the low ground to start my wall-off, and while the Stargate is building I get a second Sentry. I'm not sure if this is the right order of operations for building units, but it's a work-in-progress. The bottomline is that this gives me a very fast Stargate while still granting ample unit-based defense and a reasonably-timed Nexus.
Unless I'm planning to just jump ship on the expo and go for a 4-gate/5-gate Nexus cancel, I don't cut any probes, after starting that first pylon. I boost my nexus 3 times, and then depending on what I scout I usually go ahead and boost it a 4th time if I have a Nexus already in production and I want to race worker production to have a well-saturated expo quickly. The third boost comes down right when I have the energy for it, which is why I pylon before my first gas (I'm not building a Nexus on 15 or 17 food, so I need to be producing workers quickly to compensate for it). That's is I drop the Nexus before my 2nd gate. Otherwise, I tend to just boost my gateway if I'm planning to Expo or I boost warpgates if I'm going to build more gates and do a warp timing. But generally, I think boosting gateways is better for this build because I'm intending to commit to a stargate army in the midgame, so I don't want a bunch of gateways; I just want ~2 for survival and boosting those gates allows for a pretty quick standing army to defend that natural. I'm planning to use gateways later on as part of sim cities and major wall-offs to protect my cannons at the 3rd/4th, so I don't need to be slamming them down in my main where they're just going to be dead weight. That's the point when a big switch to ground catches the Zerg off guard when his army is basically massed antiair, or when I simply want to get some multipronged aggression going. I'm fine with having extra gates beyond my production capability (they are useful, after all), but I prefer them to be somewhere in front of an expansion where they can do more than sit there in case of emergency.
I'm finding that I want the first 2 pylons on the high ground, and probably the third one up there as well. You don't have to start committing to the low ground with buildings if you have units and 2 gates pumping; my early low ground defense is forcefields and army positioning on the ramp. If my opponent decides that he really wants to cancel my expo, it means that he's going to have to build a lot of roach/ling to do so, meaning his drone count will be garbage and my delayed expo isn't a big deal, since I'll have awkward saturation for a moment but that's compensated for by the potential for warpgate counterattacks (if he overdrones) and my way superior tech. If you have nothing but a nexus on the low ground, a roach/ling (or even bling) all-in is only going to cost you a small number of minerals lost for canceling the Nexus, whereas if you put pylons and other stuff down there, it's an investment you might not get back if you have to go back up the ramp.
I boost my first Phoenix, then send it directly to my opponent's base along the most direct path which ground units would travel to come to my natural. Picking of overlords isn't a big priority at that point because my cards are basically on the table: I have an expansion and a really quick stargate, and obviously I'm going Phoenix first. So it's more important to me to just go across the map and see if I need to brace for an immediate attack, then check the bases for all the relevant information possible: the tech structures, the drone count, the queen count, gas count, etc. After I do that, my second Phoenix comes out and I use that one to clear overlords by my base, while I send the first one around to check for some less obvious expansion spots/to snipe overlords for free on the map. When I get my third Phoenix out, I group them back up and go kill a queen if possible, otherwise I wait for the 4th/5th one to do this (if there is more antiair, I wait for more Phoenixes). This way, what I am doing is getting as perfect a picture of the Zerg as possible and then attacking his production. I don't pick up drones this early unless I somehow managed to murder all the queens and I have a couple spare grav lifts at the time, and I don't forsee immediate aggression--it's good to have some spare energy to be able to turn the tides of an engagement at that stage of the game with clutch grav lifts.
I'm pretty certain about all of the above, but from there I don't have the build completely fleshed out. That's OK, though; that's why things are discussed and developed. I know that I want to have 2 gates, then a stargate and I know that I want a small gateway force and then Phoenixes, and from there I decide tech paths (commit to stargate army, double robo into colossus, big warpgate aggression, etc.)
Oh, and a transition I've been really happy with is going Robo while the Phoenix harass commences, which allows me to pick up 3 full-energy Sentries and do a major attack on the main with infinite forcefields on the ramp. Because Phoenixes clear the overlords out of the way, the drop comes out of nowhere and gives the zerg so little time to react. At best, you wreck the zerg on the spot and the game is yours. At worst, your opponent puts up a defense in his main and you just fly away with the Warp Prism intact and all your units still alive. I'll be sure to post a rep of this as soon as I get a good game to show.
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Thanks to the skytoss build I got my "Frugal Fighter" Achievement on my void rays. It's a fun way to play, will probably use it more often.
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@ineversmile
Your gate expand is very risky, it usualy dies to mass speedlings.
Also Investment in ground force and gateway tech is really delaying your air-tech, by a lot more, than Nexus-first in FFE.
I'm not saying that it is bad or something, It seems okay, but it doubtful if you want to play mass air.
Also gateway oppening must WG tech first, so you will get +1 later.
Zerg's drone count will be fine, if we consider he is going 14/16 standart, and when scouts no FFE, just throws down gas and get speed.
Maybe YufFE and Nony's 2Gate sentry expo will get you some thoughts.
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EPT
