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On May 31 2012 23:51 Nyast wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2012 22:53 Fogetaboudit wrote:
I was suspicious about Corruptor first being a problem, but I've never faced it before. Zergs just never think to do it on ladder, at least up through mid/high masters. A few lings to tank cannon shots is pretty good/smart. I got a loss or two with Zergs that went corruptors first. Then they park your stargates so that any voidray/carrier that pops out is insta killed. This forces you to produce cannons and stalkers under the stargates, and even then, none of those kill a huge pack of corruptors very quickly, which is damn annoying. I also got a loss or two against Zergs that traded corruptors for the mothership ( even if it's not trade cost effective for them ). In one game I lost my MS 4 or 5 times, each time I didn't have energy for a vortex. Meanwhile Zerg just mass expoes, and you can't harass / punish him due to the threat of infestors fungal when your army is out of pos since your don't have a recall.
This is why I think it's important not to forget to start massing up Warpgates and get shield/ground attack upgrades. There should be a lot of good windows between trades where you can warp in a cycle of Dark Templar/Archons/Templar/Zealots, in between rebuilding your fleet.
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I love this style since I don't have to deal with broodlords. I always open void ray, but does anyone have any replays of doing a defensive mothership after opening with 4-5 phoenix?
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On May 30 2012 13:26 ineversmile wrote:
What are the tangible benefits to getting +1 air weapons that fast?
Whitewing touched on the pretty much all of these, but these are the numbers:
- Phoenixes kill overlords in 17 shots instead of 20, thus 3 phoenixes kill an overlord in 6 volleys instead of 7.
- Phoenixes kill mutas in 11 shots instead of 12 (and if you can get +2 attack before they get +1 armor then it's 10 shots).
- Void rays gain a boost of 1.7 dps (from 10), plus an additional 1.7 when charged up against armored units (meaning that when fully charged, void rays do 30 dps instead of 26.6 to roaches, killing them close to 20% faster).
Most of the time when I decide to go for +1 air weapons before warp tech, I'm focused on using a pretty heavy air comp throughout the game, and thus I'll get the second cyber core very early, usually when +1 weapons is about 30% done. That way, I can start warp tech on the second cyber before +1 weapons is done, start +1 armor on the first cyber after +1 weapons is done, and still have plenty of time to set up a third and a fleet beacon before +1 armor and warp tech are done, then leaving me with double cyber cores for +2/+2 as soon as the fleet beacon is done. If I see fast 3 bases from Zerg and suspect mass roaches with the probe/zealot scout, I'll usually go for +1 air weapons first just because of how much faster void rays will kill roaches, which is much more useful than the extra zealots you would have out by having faster warp tech.
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I just have to say it - 3/3/3 upgraded fleet with guardian shield and storm is the most beautifull army in this game.
And probably the most rage inducing aswell 
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I am only high platinum, so my experience doesn't count, but I managed to beat this by first making the typical roach/hydra army to attack his natural and destroyed it. (And managed to do some damage in his maina s well.) My follow up was pure baneling to destroy a bunch of cannons at the natural and his natural nexus (again).
In the mean time he kept making voidrays and phoenix; I kept expanding and putting down 10 spores at each expansion and getting infestors at all of them. It seems that pure offensive ling/bling and defensive spore/infestor is pretty good against this.
Map was Ohana.
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On June 01 2012 19:32 AdrianHealey wrote:
I am only high platinum, so my experience doesn't count, but I managed to beat this by first making the typical roach/hydra army to attack his natural and destroyed it. (And managed to do some damage in his maina s well.) My follow up was pure baneling to destroy a bunch of cannons at the natural and his natural nexus (again).
In the mean time he kept making voidrays and phoenix; I kept expanding and putting down 10 spores at each expansion and getting infestors at all of them. It seems that pure offensive ling/bling and defensive spore/infestor is pretty good against this.
Map was Ohana.
Would you care to share a rep of that game?
We are still working on getting this build to solid stanc, every little pice of info helps.
Also, got rolled over with corruptor-ling, when was taking third at shakuras, basically he traded corrupters for my MS and lings to do cannons, really thinking of adding more zealots and earlier archon to secure third if see a corruptor follow-up.
Going back to WG tech vs +1.
For me getting +1 early is really important for initial phoenix harass.
And there is a timing window right after your +1 is done and you are getting FB and MS, it's perfectly suitable to get WG then.
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yeah I'm a little worried about corruptor/ling first, with no gas wasted on roach/hydra/muta. I theorycraft that a supersick Vortex could help out in the battle, allowing cannons to clean up an extra amount of lings, allowing for more time to spit out whatever extra units you can get, and allowing a few stray units to get picked off.
I think it's the biggest problem at this point but this is based only on replies itt. Also, if you make 1 Phoenix like I do, and scout no units + spire, I have a hard time knowing how many additional Phoenix to get. Can't know if they are going Muta or Corruptor until you physically see them hatch.
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On June 01 2012 19:57 Fogetaboudit wrote:
yeah I'm a little worried about corruptor/ling first, with no gas wasted on roach/hydra/muta
I think it's the biggest problem at this point but this is based only on replies itt. Also, if you make 1 Phoenix like I do, and scout no units + spire, I have a hard time knowing how many additional Phoenix to get. Can't know if they are going Muta or Corruptor until you physically see them hatch.
Uhu, that's why i swithced to 5 phoenix firs instead of VR to harass, gives you much better scouting. Economic damage is pretty similar, but scouting is so good.
And I was saying earlier that infestor is bad, but i actually feel much safer when see infestor follow up.
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On June 01 2012 20:05 Rimak wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2012 19:57 Fogetaboudit wrote:
yeah I'm a little worried about corruptor/ling first, with no gas wasted on roach/hydra/muta
I think it's the biggest problem at this point but this is based only on replies itt. Also, if you make 1 Phoenix like I do, and scout no units + spire, I have a hard time knowing how many additional Phoenix to get. Can't know if they are going Muta or Corruptor until you physically see them hatch. Uhu, that's why i swithced to 5 phoenix firs instead of VR to harass, gives you much better scouting. Economic damage is pretty similar, but scouting is so good. And I was saying earlier that infestor is bad, but i actually feel much safer when see infestor follow up.
Do you have any replays of your 5 phoenix opener you would like to share? :D
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On June 01 2012 19:52 Rimak wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2012 19:32 AdrianHealey wrote:
I am only high platinum, so my experience doesn't count, but I managed to beat this by first making the typical roach/hydra army to attack his natural and destroyed it. (And managed to do some damage in his maina s well.) My follow up was pure baneling to destroy a bunch of cannons at the natural and his natural nexus (again).
In the mean time he kept making voidrays and phoenix; I kept expanding and putting down 10 spores at each expansion and getting infestors at all of them. It seems that pure offensive ling/bling and defensive spore/infestor is pretty good against this.
Map was Ohana. Would you care to share a rep of that game? We are still working on getting this build to solid stanc, every little pice of info helps. Also, got rolled over with corruptor-ling, when was taking third at shakuras, basically he traded corrupters for my MS and lings to do cannons, really thinking of adding more zealots and earlier archon to secure third if see a corruptor follow-up. Going back to WG tech vs +1. For me getting +1 early is really important for initial phoenix harass. And there is a timing window right after your +1 is done and you are getting FB and MS, it's perfectly suitable to get WG then.
I'll see if I can find it. Again; the execution was probably not perfect, but neither was my response. 
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Just tried this on the ladder but I probably wont do it again.
My VRs + mothership died over and over again to his muta/hydra/corruptor composition. I had a hard time denying creep spread and couldn't really do any damage because of queens + spores.
I am only top gold so I am pretty sure that it was just me executing it poorly but I didn't know how to engage him..
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I met this style on Shakuras. Went double Spire upgrades and took as many bases with gas as fast as I could. My opponent added a few Archons, and the fight become Archon/Voidray/Mothership/Carriers/Sentries (2 for Guardian Shields) vs Corrupter/Infestor/Ling. I'm not sure how exactly this turned out the way it did, but his four bases were pretty impossible to break early.
and somehow 2/2 corrupter+Infestors don't do all too well vs the Protoss fleet. In fact, my stuff died insanely fast to his blob of units, barely killing anything. I believe for 40 corrupters and 10ish Infestors I killed maybe half his army. I was a bit surprised at just how hard it was to murder a maxed fleet.
If I hadn't had all the center expansions gas aswell, my remax had been too poor to fight off the remaining fleet, especially after the Mothership Recall harass.
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On June 01 2012 20:46 Harbinger631 wrote:
Do you have any replays of your 5 phoenix opener you would like to share? :D
I'll do some games and upload them.
Dunno when tho, busy weekend ahead =)
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don't forget, with this style, the anion pulse crystals mean that with proper micro phoenixes can actually trade pretty effectively wit corruptors, i believe, since they have identical range
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On June 01 2012 23:38 polysciguy wrote:
don't forget, with this style, the anion pulse crystals mean that with proper micro phoenixes can actually trade pretty effectively wit corruptors, i believe, since they have identical range
Corruptors have 2 armor which makes them do way more damage relatively speaking. Its better to go harass than try to take them on head to head with Phoenix. Though of course, if you can pick of a straggler, it's worth it.
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On May 04 2012 00:33 Fogetaboudit wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 00:22 oOOoOphidian wrote:On May 04 2012 00:16 Fogetaboudit wrote:except you ragequit every game except for 2? You claimed you "didnt want to do it to me again" as I trucked your army. stop playing stupid and misleading everyone http://drop.sc/171090You have 130 supply here after your main army is decimated, lol, you ragequit but claim to be doing me a favor. Do everyone a favor and go away. + Show Spoiler + You realize I had 6 bases and 7k/2k banked with 25 full energy infestors, right? You were mining one base and cannoning it up, just like the first game you lost. Anyway, I talked about a build someone used against me a while ago on ladder that was similar, here it is: http://drop.sc/171222If you want to do mass void rays against a 3 hatch zerg, that opener is a lot better as it gets a much faster third and better production, though he ended up losing to mutalisks he made quite a few mistakes that made it pretty lopsided when it shouldn't have been. I checked the replay just to make sure your lying, again. I'm suprised at how much you literally make up, especially when the replay is right here. http://drop.sc/171090Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 00:22 oOOoOphidian wrote:
You realize I had 6 bases and 7k/2k banked with 25 full energy infestors, right? You were mining one base and cannoning it up, just like the first game you lost. WRONG - When you ragequit I have 3 mining bases (not 1), and you have 4 (not 6). I even numbered them for you! All of your infestors have about half enery, some are much lower (not full). ![[image loading]](http://i432.photobucket.com/albums/qq47/andrewmboccia/lol.jpg) Anyhow, I'm trying to actually work on my build, and improve my theoretical understanding of the game. You just want to be an angry BM player who rages out for little to no reason. It's quite clear to me now that you never intended to help me hammer out this build, you just wanted to look like a wise guy on Team Liquid, lol. You blow your wins out of proportion, and then any game that I had a decisive advantage in you would just ragequit claiming to want to avoid a long game, lol. time to gtfo.
You do realise that unless he had a stroke he had won that game right?? 25 infestors, despite not being full energy and that bank means he could instantly go to 200-200 with like 30 corruptors while taking another base. In a fight you would straight up lose without recall and he coudl just deny all your expos and camp. You were not going to win that game and seeing as it was practice i would have left too. Tbh it seems like that guy was actually right and you are just refusing to see weaknesses in the build. I'm a protoss player btw before any "Zerg bias you have no idea what you are talking about"
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This army composition is so good, since I've started using it, I have a 95% winrate in PvZ right now. I still don't see how this composition can get hard countered imo. (mid-high'ish diamond US)
- NMHU.
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Belgium554 Posts
On June 02 2012 03:11 iAmBiGbiRd wrote:
You do realise that unless he had a stroke he had won that game right?? 25 infestors, despite not being full energy and that bank means he could instantly go to 200-200 with like 30 corruptors while taking another base. In a fight you would straight up lose without recall and he coudl just deny all your expos and camp. You were not going to win that game and seeing as it was practice i would have left too. Tbh it seems like that guy was actually right and you are just refusing to see weaknesses in the build. I'm a protoss player btw before any "Zerg bias you have no idea what you are talking about"
You do realize that Zerg has 25 infestors.. and nothing else right ? Like.. 25 infestors.. and 1600 gas in bank ?
So let's assume for a second that he already has 16 corruptors.
That's 25 infestors + 16 corruptors versus 1 mothership, 29 voidrays and 3 carriers. Army wise that's rouhgly 80 food vs 120 food. Assuming full upgrades on both sides, the result of a direct fight is a slaughter in protoss favor.. like.. it's not even close... and by direct fight I mean, not even relying on vortex !
I mean, if you're going to criticize the build, you better have some experience with it, or test compos in a map unit, or whatever. To me it seems like you have absolutely no clue how strong that compo is. That Zerg was 100% dead. Just run a unit tester and see by yourself.
Now if he had 7000 gas in bank it would have been a different story..
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Italy12248 Posts
I don't care if this build isn't viable unless the other guy screws up reacting to it and bla bla whatever, it's so fucking hilarious i will definitely start adding it into my macro builds. I feel like white-ra doing this lol.
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On June 02 2012 03:11 iAmBiGbiRd wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 00:33 Fogetaboudit wrote:On May 04 2012 00:22 oOOoOphidian wrote:On May 04 2012 00:16 Fogetaboudit wrote:except you ragequit every game except for 2? You claimed you "didnt want to do it to me again" as I trucked your army. stop playing stupid and misleading everyone http://drop.sc/171090You have 130 supply here after your main army is decimated, lol, you ragequit but claim to be doing me a favor. Do everyone a favor and go away. + Show Spoiler + You realize I had 6 bases and 7k/2k banked with 25 full energy infestors, right? You were mining one base and cannoning it up, just like the first game you lost. Anyway, I talked about a build someone used against me a while ago on ladder that was similar, here it is: http://drop.sc/171222If you want to do mass void rays against a 3 hatch zerg, that opener is a lot better as it gets a much faster third and better production, though he ended up losing to mutalisks he made quite a few mistakes that made it pretty lopsided when it shouldn't have been. I checked the replay just to make sure your lying, again. I'm suprised at how much you literally make up, especially when the replay is right here. http://drop.sc/171090On May 04 2012 00:22 oOOoOphidian wrote:
You realize I had 6 bases and 7k/2k banked with 25 full energy infestors, right? You were mining one base and cannoning it up, just like the first game you lost. WRONG - When you ragequit I have 3 mining bases (not 1), and you have 4 (not 6). I even numbered them for you! All of your infestors have about half enery, some are much lower (not full). Anyhow, I'm trying to actually work on my build, and improve my theoretical understanding of the game. You just want to be an angry BM player who rages out for little to no reason. It's quite clear to me now that you never intended to help me hammer out this build, you just wanted to look like a wise guy on Team Liquid, lol. You blow your wins out of proportion, and then any game that I had a decisive advantage in you would just ragequit claiming to want to avoid a long game, lol. time to gtfo. You do realise that unless he had a stroke he had won that game right?? 25 infestors, despite not being full energy and that bank means he could instantly go to 200-200 with like 30 corruptors while taking another base. In a fight you would straight up lose without recall and he coudl just deny all your expos and camp. You were not going to win that game and seeing as it was practice i would have left too. Tbh it seems like that guy was actually right and you are just refusing to see weaknesses in the build. I'm a protoss player btw before any "Zerg bias you have no idea what you are talking about"
Sounds like you already had a stroke. The point of the post was to show that this player blatantly lied about our games. I quoted what he said, and screenshot of what he was referring to. Then I even included the replay. I have a huge advantage based on being in a similar position many times before. but that's not the point. The point is that I wanted to work on the strategy which is intended to go to the lategame and Max out, ragequitting doesn't help me practice the lategame, it's just BM from a scumbag who never intended to help me in the first place.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/pE2PH.jpg)
