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On May 29 2012 22:45 Rimak wrote:
@ineversmile
Your gate expand is very risky, it usualy dies to mass speedlings.
Or it just gets canceled and I go up the ramp, if my opponent opened gas-pool. If the gas comes down after my probe is kicked out of his base, that means he has a pool already and the timing is so much later that I will already have a similar wall-off with a cannon that FFE would, and with banked forcefields and some units. It all depends on the timing of their gas.
Also Investment in ground force and gateway tech is really delaying your air-tech, by a lot more, than Nexus-first in FFE.
I'm not saying that it is bad or something, It seems okay, but it doubtful if you want to play mass air.
Prove it.
Also gateway oppening must WG tech first, so you will get +1 later.
I would never get +1 before WG with a FFE build either, so this is completely irrelevant. Maybe the right thing to do is to delay WG tech until the Stargate is started, since it's not that high of a priority. But I would never want to play a game without WG tech. It's way too useful to leave behind, even if I'm building my 3rd gateway at my third base to form a wall. WG tech completely changes the match-up from an aggression standpoint, as well as being an emergency defense mechanism.
Zerg's drone count will be fine, if we consider he is going 14/16 standart, and when scouts no FFE, just throws down gas and get speed.
Maybe YufFE and Nony's 2Gate sentry expo will get you some thoughts.
The whole point was to take Nony's 2gate expo and tweak it to add a faster stargate. I didn't invent the Gateway Expansion opening; I'm just trying to find one that works for this build because the Core and gases are quicker so the Stargate can be built earlier.
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On May 29 2012 23:38 ineversmile wrote:
I would never get +1 before WG with a FFE build either, so this is completely irrelevant.
You should honestly think about it with the skytoss style. I never really even thought about it until I saw White-Ra do it with his FFE carrier rush build (obviously the upgrade being hugely important with carriers), but the more that I've played around with it the more I've found that it does make a certain amount of sense with a lot of different skytoss openings. Particularly the double cyber core variants, because then you can just start WG with the second cyber core before the first is done with +1, giving you warp tech plenty early enough.
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If you get +1 air weapons ridiculously fast, where are the benefits? Assuming you aren't rushing to carriers, what does this make Phoenixes kill faster? Void Rays? +1 ground weapons gives Zealots the ability to 2-shot lings...what equivalent are we getting from a +1 air timing? Because without getting a crazy-fast fleet beacon, you simply aren't going to be getting +2 air weapons right after the +1 finishes, and without that stepladder incentive I don't see why I should want to get +1 air weapons that quickly. It seems better to just throw down a Beacon (and potentially that second Core) while the third is established, then start boosting upgrades.
The thing about delaying WG super late is that you're going to have regular gateways that are basically sitting there as walls, so your opponent will know that you have no potential for warp-ins. That means he doesn't have to worry about proxy pylons, warp prism, warping in reinforcements to respond to his harassment, etc. It also means you are basically telling your opponent that he should only worry about air units, which makes it way easier for him to make the right decisions about where and when to engage, and how aggressively he can expand/drone up. So to me, there had better be some kind of ridiculous +attack-based timing involved, if I'm going to give up WG tech until the ~13 minute mark just so I can have that attack upgrade. Maybe I'm wrong; if so, convince me if I am. What are the tangible benefits to getting +1 air weapons that fast?
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This is interesting....any problems with 11 minute roaches? Could they just overwhelm and abuse the slow speed of the voidrays?
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By the way, since you guys are discussing this, I wouldn't recommend gateway expand when using this. Benefits of gateway first is get warp and cybercore fast while getting also additional gateway units. You should go double stargate off ffe, since you can't get it earlier with 1 gate expand, you'll simply not have enough gas and risk more to get all inned and not have a proper defense.
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I feel like a corruptor response with a reasonable economy behind it is gonna trash this style the longer the game goes on.
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United States7483 Posts
On May 30 2012 13:26 ineversmile wrote:
If you get +1 air weapons ridiculously fast, where are the benefits? Assuming you aren't rushing to carriers, what does this make Phoenixes kill faster? Void Rays? +1 ground weapons gives Zealots the ability to 2-shot lings...what equivalent are we getting from a +1 air timing? Because without getting a crazy-fast fleet beacon, you simply aren't going to be getting +2 air weapons right after the +1 finishes, and without that stepladder incentive I don't see why I should want to get +1 air weapons that quickly. It seems better to just throw down a Beacon (and potentially that second Core) while the third is established, then start boosting upgrades.
The thing about delaying WG super late is that you're going to have regular gateways that are basically sitting there as walls, so your opponent will know that you have no potential for warp-ins. That means he doesn't have to worry about proxy pylons, warp prism, warping in reinforcements to respond to his harassment, etc. It also means you are basically telling your opponent that he should only worry about air units, which makes it way easier for him to make the right decisions about where and when to engage, and how aggressively he can expand/drone up. So to me, there had better be some kind of ridiculous +attack-based timing involved, if I'm going to give up WG tech until the ~13 minute mark just so I can have that attack upgrade. Maybe I'm wrong; if so, convince me if I am. What are the tangible benefits to getting +1 air weapons that fast?
It makes pheonix take out overlords faster, and it allows void rays to focus down overlords and buildings faster. It also makes heavy air defenses vs. roach busts easier (VRs will take out roaches faster). It also makes phoenix kill mutas and corrupters quicker (one less attack to kill mutas I believe), etc. It basically makes any initial pressure from air units stronger and forces more defense from zerg, and helps your air units hold off counters easier.
But mainly, if your army is going to be primarily air for a while, it might be better than warp gate while you're still on two bases: you can still make units out of normal gateways after all. A better question might be what is the benefit of getting warp gate first with a primarily air build? You get one extra round of units out right when warp gate finishes, and slightly faster gateway production. The actual warp in function only really becomes important if you're doing gateway attacks or your bases are spread out (on three bases etc.)
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United States7483 Posts
On May 31 2012 03:46 Foks wrote:
I feel like a corruptor response with a reasonable economy behind it is gonna trash this style the longer the game goes on.
Corrupters are really bad vs. void rays. Really, really bad.
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On May 31 2012 04:31 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2012 03:46 Foks wrote:
I feel like a corruptor response with a reasonable economy behind it is gonna trash this style the longer the game goes on. Corrupters are really bad vs. void rays. Really, really bad.
Fungal growth/IT doesn't solve this issue?
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how the hell do u beat this as zerg? the toss i played rushed out a mothership and it makes pressuring him a huge pain in the ass. then he got 200/200 fully upgraded carriers. i took the map and could literally build whatever i wanted to as an army with all the ups, and still got raped. i think i ended up with around 50 corruptors, mass spores and some mutas.
is mass infestor / neural parasite probably the only hope against this kind of situation? thanks 
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Thank for this strategy, solved at least one MU for me while racechanging
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I would just like to say I lost to this horribly. I had no idea what to do
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On May 31 2012 01:39 FuGGu wrote:
This is interesting....any problems with 11 minute roaches? Could they just overwhelm and abuse the slow speed of the voidrays?
Initial 5 phoenix deal with this very nice.
You disrupt his production cycles, kill queens and force spores.
so push will come @ ~13-14 minutes, and that's completely different story.
Also you should already have mothership over cannons.
Focus-fire overseers, and then watch the helples roach massacre.
On May 31 2012 04:40 Foks wrote:Fungal growth/IT doesn't solve this issue?
Nop. Just reacall your units to MS.
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On May 31 2012 17:43 Rimak wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2012 01:39 FuGGu wrote:
This is interesting....any problems with 11 minute roaches? Could they just overwhelm and abuse the slow speed of the voidrays? Also you should already have mothership over cannons. Focus-fire overseers, and then watch the helples roach massacre.
tee hee hee
On May 31 2012 11:20 GreggSauce wrote:
I would just like to say I lost to this horribly. I had no idea what to do
you can always join the dark side. 
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On May 31 2012 03:46 Foks wrote:
I feel like a corruptor response with a reasonable economy behind it is gonna trash this style the longer the game goes on.
It doesn't. I have experience of beating 3/3 mass corruptor with infestor support army when the zerg took 12 gaysers and still he got demolished (Didin't even need to vortex him) Just don't get all your HT's fingaled and get storms on clumps of corruptors.
Try not to write about your feelings in discussion thread, but rather about theory with some evidence or reasoning behind it.
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On May 31 2012 22:18 -Kira wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2012 03:46 Foks wrote:
I feel like a corruptor response with a reasonable economy behind it is gonna trash this style the longer the game goes on. It doesn't. I have experience of beating 3/3 mass corruptor with infestor support army when the zerg took 12 gaysers and still he got demolished (Didin't even need to vortex him) Just don't get all your HT's fingaled and get storms on clumps of corruptors. Try not to write about your feelings in discussion thread, but rather about theory with some evidence or reasoning behind it.
Actually I practiced with Naugrim, and he did a fast corruptor response. Basicly a push with tons of corruptors and some queens and lings behind it (lings to break cannons and queens to transfuse corruptors) could destroy the 3rd and win the game.
However such a timing with corruptors is only possible if you know 100% that your opponent is going for sky toss and getting a 3rd. Therefore you should use this build as a surprise tactic and hide your stargates. And not as a each game standard strategy.
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This build is just an epic win. I win 100% of my PvZ since I use this build. Most 12 min markish roach pushes will arrive when I already have 2-3 Carriers and a handfull Voidrays. With cannons and a mothership you can easily hold a suprised zerg and Recall is making a toss army so mobil. Once after getting mroe carriers I go for collosi and upgrades. Later i'll add archons if the zerg gets a critical mass of curropters/broodlords.
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On May 31 2012 22:29 Adonminus wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2012 22:18 -Kira wrote:On May 31 2012 03:46 Foks wrote:
I feel like a corruptor response with a reasonable economy behind it is gonna trash this style the longer the game goes on. It doesn't. I have experience of beating 3/3 mass corruptor with infestor support army when the zerg took 12 gaysers and still he got demolished (Didin't even need to vortex him) Just don't get all your HT's fingaled and get storms on clumps of corruptors. Try not to write about your feelings in discussion thread, but rather about theory with some evidence or reasoning behind it. Actually I practiced with Naugrim, and he did a fast corruptor response. Basicly a push with tons of corruptors and some queens and lings behind it (lings to break cannons and queens to transfuse corruptors) could destroy the 3rd and win the game. However such a timing with corruptors is only possible if you know 100% that your opponent is going for sky toss and getting a 3rd. Therefore you should use this build as a surprise tactic and hide your stargates. And not as a each game standard strategy.
Yuck 
I was suspicious about Corruptor first being a problem, but I've never faced it before. Zergs just never think to do it on ladder, at least up through mid/high masters. A few lings to tank cannon shots is pretty good/smart.
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On May 31 2012 22:53 Fogetaboudit wrote:
I was suspicious about Corruptor first being a problem, but I've never faced it before. Zergs just never think to do it on ladder, at least up through mid/high masters. A few lings to tank cannon shots is pretty good/smart.
I got a loss or two with Zergs that went corruptors first. Then they park your stargates so that any voidray/carrier that pops out is insta killed. This forces you to produce cannons and stalkers under the stargates, and even then, none of those kill a huge pack of corruptors very quickly, which is damn annoying.
I also got a loss or two against Zergs that traded corruptors for the mothership ( even if it's not trade cost effective for them ). In one game I lost my MS 4 or 5 times, each time I didn't have energy for a vortex. Meanwhile Zerg just mass expoes, and you can't harass / punish him due to the threat of infestors fungal when your army is out of pos since your don't have a recall.
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EPT
