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On June 02 2012 03:38 NMHU. wrote:
This army composition is so good, since I've started using it, I have a 95% winrate in PvZ right now. I still don't see how this composition can get hard countered imo. (mid-high'ish diamond US)
- NMHU.
Does this stand for "No Money Heads Up"?
happy to hear about the success
On June 02 2012 07:39 Teoita wrote:
I don't care if this build isn't viable unless the other guy screws up reacting to it and bla bla whatever, it's so fucking hilarious i will definitely start adding it into my macro builds. I feel like white-ra doing this lol.
LOL <3
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Ok since I started doing this build I haven't lost a single game against zerg, except for quick all-ins that i failed to scout or react to appropriately, and those losses weren't because i was doing this build, but because i simply failed to react properly or scout. So if the game goes to ten minutes or so then I haven't lost a single one.
Now because I love replays so much I decided to put a couple of my own up, and constructive criticism is always appreciated.
http://drop.sc/189673
http://drop.sc/189906
This one was against a player in a league higher than me, and I wanted to draw attention to the final battle, in which he has 34 corrupters and I have 29 voids I believe. What absolutely blew my mind was that i barely lost any voids at all, i almost felt bad for the dude. I did have better upgrades and it took a couple seconds for him to get his corrupters into the engagement but it was actually quite frightening to me how soundly i defeated his corrupters.
Anyway cheers to you Fogetaboudit for the wonderful build, I am having a great deal of fun with it!
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Bulldog, I've done the exact same thing -- I switched to Protoss because I'm tired of all the bs zerg has to deal with. I read this guide a long while back, and was like "lol hope i never play against this style"... Yesterday I switched to Protoss, and this build is SO good. I typically grab my third, wall in EVERYTHING with gateways + cannons, get a total of 4 stargates, double cyber, and keep them upgrades flowing. there isn't a counter to cloaked 3-3-3 voidrays, and I imagine that you could even do an archon toilet just to make the zerg cry "imba!" even more. The mass recall harass is actually hilarious, and I laugh and type "YOINK!" everytime I use it.
Those replays were fun to watch 
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On June 01 2012 20:46 Harbinger631 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2012 20:05 Rimak wrote:On June 01 2012 19:57 Fogetaboudit wrote:
yeah I'm a little worried about corruptor/ling first, with no gas wasted on roach/hydra/muta
I think it's the biggest problem at this point but this is based only on replies itt. Also, if you make 1 Phoenix like I do, and scout no units + spire, I have a hard time knowing how many additional Phoenix to get. Can't know if they are going Muta or Corruptor until you physically see them hatch. Uhu, that's why i swithced to 5 phoenix firs instead of VR to harass, gives you much better scouting. Economic damage is pretty similar, but scouting is so good. And I was saying earlier that infestor is bad, but i actually feel much safer when see infestor follow up. Do you have any replays of your 5 phoenix opener you would like to share? :D
Myself and Zerg's were just terrible, sorry for that, I'm really far from being good, but at least It'll give you some ideas on what i mean opening with phx.
http://drop.sc/191799
Roach-Ling drop in my main
http://drop.sc/191798
Late 3rd on shakuras.
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skytoss in pvz works only because is so rare that zergs just don;t know how to play vs it. yet...
User was warned for this post
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On June 04 2012 04:47 Mavvie wrote:Bulldog, I've done the exact same thing -- I switched to Protoss because I'm tired of all the bs zerg has to deal with. I read this guide a long while back, and was like "lol hope i never play against this style"... Yesterday I switched to Protoss, and this build is SO good. I typically grab my third, wall in EVERYTHING with gateways + cannons, get a total of 4 stargates, double cyber, and keep them upgrades flowing. there isn't a counter to cloaked 3-3-3 voidrays, and I imagine that you could even do an archon toilet just to make the zerg cry "imba!" even more. The mass recall harass is actually hilarious, and I laugh and type "YOINK!" everytime I use it. Those replays were fun to watch
"and I laugh and type "YOINK!" everytime I use it. " so You are just telling that you are a f****n BM d**k ? O.o acknowledge
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On June 05 2012 22:38 Sapp wrote:
skytoss in pvz works only because is so rare that zergs just don;t know how to play vs it. yet...
excellent contribution!!!
"WELL THIS ONLY WORKS BECAUSE ZERGS DONT KNOW HOW TO MAKE IT NOT WORK!"
This is how a meta-game develops, it's also stating the obvious. When they start to figure it out, it will be fun to try and solve the new problems.
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On June 05 2012 22:41 Sapp wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2012 04:47 Mavvie wrote:Bulldog, I've done the exact same thing -- I switched to Protoss because I'm tired of all the bs zerg has to deal with. I read this guide a long while back, and was like "lol hope i never play against this style"... Yesterday I switched to Protoss, and this build is SO good. I typically grab my third, wall in EVERYTHING with gateways + cannons, get a total of 4 stargates, double cyber, and keep them upgrades flowing. there isn't a counter to cloaked 3-3-3 voidrays, and I imagine that you could even do an archon toilet just to make the zerg cry "imba!" even more. The mass recall harass is actually hilarious, and I laugh and type "YOINK!" everytime I use it. Those replays were fun to watch "and I laugh and type "YOINK!" everytime I use it. " so You are just telling that you are a f****n BM d**k ? O.o acknowledge
lol, yeah but at least its funny and light hearted, imo. Personally I would only work this awesome BM in against players who BM first.
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On June 05 2012 22:41 Sapp wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2012 04:47 Mavvie wrote:Bulldog, I've done the exact same thing -- I switched to Protoss because I'm tired of all the bs zerg has to deal with. I read this guide a long while back, and was like "lol hope i never play against this style"... Yesterday I switched to Protoss, and this build is SO good. I typically grab my third, wall in EVERYTHING with gateways + cannons, get a total of 4 stargates, double cyber, and keep them upgrades flowing. there isn't a counter to cloaked 3-3-3 voidrays, and I imagine that you could even do an archon toilet just to make the zerg cry "imba!" even more. The mass recall harass is actually hilarious, and I laugh and type "YOINK!" everytime I use it. Those replays were fun to watch "and I laugh and type "YOINK!" everytime I use it. " so You are just telling that you are a f****n BM d**k ? O.o acknowledge
Someone here is a sensitive flower. I think friendly smack is a welcome addition to the build, and should be included in the op.
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On June 04 2012 04:47 Mavvie wrote:Bulldog, I've done the exact same thing -- I switched to Protoss because I'm tired of all the bs zerg has to deal with. I read this guide a long while back, and was like "lol hope i never play against this style"... Yesterday I switched to Protoss, and this build is SO good. I typically grab my third, wall in EVERYTHING with gateways + cannons, get a total of 4 stargates, double cyber, and keep them upgrades flowing. there isn't a counter to cloaked 3-3-3 voidrays, and I imagine that you could even do an archon toilet just to make the zerg cry "imba!" even more. The mass recall harass is actually hilarious, and I laugh and type "YOINK!" everytime I use it. Those replays were fun to watch
Lol, not really my style but funny nonetheless. What I find funny, is the rage this build induces. There is something funny about a zerg player getting upset at you for massing one type of powerful unit.....
Anyway I am going to continue to use this style because it WORKS, it is very viable and very powerful.
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Hey, Diamond P here. I decided to try out this build the other day, and the least I could say is its quite fun building up a skytoss deathball. Here's the replay: http://drop.sc/192376
Some thoughts about the build:
-First of all its funny, the zerg starts out the game so friendly but losing to mass air makes him rage quit pretty hard.
-I didn't play this very well: I get scouted quite early, lose a lot to an early zergling runby, don't do much with my voids except cancel a hatch, and my army control is sub-par to say the least. However, the pros are that this army composition is ridiculously easy to control. All you need to do is A-Move and throw storms on all the zergs clumped units.
-I think the zergs response was bad. He played really passive and had wasted supply in ground units. He also did a really bad zergling drop attempt where he just suicided all his drops and ovies to my air army. I did a really greedy variant where I skipped warpgate (thus couldn't warp in when I had my zealot plug out of position when he did his zergling runby), went phoenix and got the third at 8 min. When my third actually finished my only army was 5 phoenix and 2 zealots. Obviously I had some cannons as well, but is this actually viable in response to a 3 hatch or couldn't I just die if the zerg built some units instead of drones and attacked?
-I figure that if the zerg is going 3 hatch they are going to want to get as much drones as possible and attack at a later timing. At least in my league, zergs don't seem to push out until 12 min or so. I think that with the phoenix as another deterrent to stall them (forces them to get spores and additional queens, some might overreact and go hydras or something) that you have time to get your mothership out for protection. Also, with mass air its really easy to kill overseers, so using a defensive mothership as protection for at least one base seems really viable.
-The build is really gas heavy. Even with getting my gases at my nat really quick, funding a double stargate, early fleet beacon, and a mothership does make warp gate difficult to get early, as well as any stalkers or sentries. And when is the best time to tech to storm? I didn't get storm until pretty late, but if the zerg starts actually pressuring earlier with an army that can actually attack air, I think this build would struggle a lot to take a 4th.
-Lastly, archons are really damn good against corruptors. Mass corruptors clump hard when they attack anything.
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Alright, so after running this for about 10 games, I have a decent winrate just because of my prior experience and comfort level with Void Rays, Mothership and Carriers.
I love the opener. The opener is actually really solid. Something that should be noted is that there's no reason to rally forward Void Rays after the first 4. The remainder should be rallied to the wall at the natural, along with about 3 extra cannons so a blind eco Roach counter doesn't just autowin (happened to me before vs a rank 1, 1350 point Masters Zerg.. really irritating because I killed his 3rd too and was miles ahead). And if you can keep your 4 Void Rays busy around the Zerg base, the chances of killing a hatch, forcing tons of Spores or making them waste all of their Roaches to a pointless counterattack makes this opener much, much better than not knowing when/how to rally your Stargates. So, to get the most out of it you definitely need good APM and good Void Ray control.
However, I think the transition into Carriers is too damn slow. Maybe make 2 just to handle the first wave of Hydras if that's what they choose to attack with, and maybe bait out Corrupter fire. But still I think you could do better by just researching warpgate and powering up a handful of gateways with Charge Zealots. Like somebody had said in this thread, if they just Corrupter dive with lots and lots of lings to kill the cannons, you just can't reinforce well enough to overtake the Zerg's reinforcement rate. Plus, if they mass Hydra and you are still making only Carriers, your cannon wall won't last forever with assuming they support the Hydras well, but a good Vortex and a lot of Charge Zealots in there means they lose their entire army and you lose.. Zealots.
I think the winning move with this build is a really aggressive, strong ground army. My personal choice would be Mothership along with Charge Zealot, Archon/Storm and maybe 4-6 Immortals. If you can keep your Void Ray count high (like 8) and +3 ground weapons, it's a super sick army assuming you keep your Mothership alive.
I don't think winning with a full Stargate army is very viable just because of how contained you are to your Cannons. Taking a 4th base with Carrier, Void Ray, Mothership versus somebody that just makes a zillion corrupters is basically impossible unless you find ways to put them out of the position so you can take your Nexus, and get cannons up before moving your Mothership.
So, as a whole, great opener (the Mothership is the key to the opener), but I think the transition needs to turn into some sort of Templar and Immortal army. I am going to try to keep moving forward with 2 Robo Immortals, Charge Zealots and probably Archons. For some reason I just can't handle Mothership and Templar at the same time. Having two awkward, slow casters in the same army just messes with my brain.
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using this strategy helped me take my game to the next level in PvZ, I rarely lose unless I strongly misuse the Mothership
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So, I've been experiencing this play on the ladder a lot and I don't know how to stop it as Zerg. What kind of unit comp should I be looking for to combat this air stratgety?
Corruptor/Infestor/Queen?
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On June 06 2012 10:59 Nightmarishpie wrote:
So, I've been experiencing this play on the ladder a lot and I don't know how to stop it as Zerg. What kind of unit comp should I be looking for to combat this air stratgety?
Corruptor/Infestor/Queen?
From what I gather the single most important thing you must do is get double spire and get the air upgrades ASAP, as well as making a ton of Queens and Infestors as ground support.
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I agree about the zealot transition from air. Actually, I think it works both ways; going mass gateway style with double forges and then transitioning into triple stargate with +air weapons after taking a third. I like going +ground weapons and +shields from the forges, so I can eventually have x-0-x ground and air to fight hydras etc. It's also worth noting that shields are good for your buildings, as this comes up a lot when you're turtling and they want to use lings to do damage. Shields counteract ling and hydra dps pretty well for buildings and they help with air units and warp prisms flying over queens and spores to get into position.
I have been meaning to post some replays, but I just find myself going ground and then eventually swapping my army for air later on in the game when I have the gas and my opponent is going for the broods. Part of this is because I'm feeling much more comfortable opening gateway expo than FFE. Maybe it's just the old War3 side of me that's coming out and wanting to have an active army instead of a bunch of stationary cannons.
So my opening lately is 1gate into nexus with zealot-sentry-stalker, and if I see a fast third I just 4gate or 5gate nexus cancel, or I go DTs and get the sentry after stalker so I can pressure. I get a stargate as the expo finishes and get 5 phoenix, use them to get queens and stray ovies and scout, and then I just boost 2 forges and immortals while sim-citying with a shitload of wall-off gateways at my third/natural and then I get the other stargates when I'm nearing 140 supply or taking a 4th/hitting a timing.
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On June 02 2012 06:50 Nyast wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2012 03:11 iAmBiGbiRd wrote:
You do realise that unless he had a stroke he had won that game right?? 25 infestors, despite not being full energy and that bank means he could instantly go to 200-200 with like 30 corruptors while taking another base. In a fight you would straight up lose without recall and he coudl just deny all your expos and camp. You were not going to win that game and seeing as it was practice i would have left too. Tbh it seems like that guy was actually right and you are just refusing to see weaknesses in the build. I'm a protoss player btw before any "Zerg bias you have no idea what you are talking about"
You do realize that Zerg has 25 infestors.. and nothing else right ? Like.. 25 infestors.. and 1600 gas in bank ? So let's assume for a second that he already has 16 corruptors. That's 25 infestors + 16 corruptors versus 1 mothership, 29 voidrays and 3 carriers. Army wise that's rouhgly 80 food vs 120 food. Assuming full upgrades on both sides, the result of a direct fight is a slaughter in protoss favor.. like.. it's not even close... and by direct fight I mean, not even relying on vortex ! I mean, if you're going to criticize the build, you better have some experience with it, or test compos in a map unit, or whatever. To me it seems like you have absolutely no clue how strong that compo is. That Zerg was 100% dead. Just run a unit tester and see by yourself. Now if he had 7000 gas in bank it would have been a different story..
That protoss army is so immobile. Yes 1.6k gas so 16 corruptors, but with 4 bases fully mining gas at around 800 gas per min how long do you think it would take him to get more?? Also using a unit tester comparison in a case like this is stupid. At the very least he could have sacced the top base giving him time for corruptors and more energy on the infestors as he has 7k banked it doesnt matter much. Think about it. 25 full energy infestors and he probably would have added a few more with the corroptors. Thats like 50 fungals and over 100 infested terran PLUS the corruptors which in that number would one shot a mothership/carrier. Im not saying the build doesnt have potential, although i think it would get crushed by a lot of things/by actually good zergs, i am just saying that the posted screenshot was a waste of time trying to prove a point. If the zerg wasn't retarded he WOULD NOT have lost that game, simple as that
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On June 06 2012 12:39 iAmBiGbiRd wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2012 06:50 Nyast wrote:On June 02 2012 03:11 iAmBiGbiRd wrote:
You do realise that unless he had a stroke he had won that game right?? 25 infestors, despite not being full energy and that bank means he could instantly go to 200-200 with like 30 corruptors while taking another base. In a fight you would straight up lose without recall and he coudl just deny all your expos and camp. You were not going to win that game and seeing as it was practice i would have left too. Tbh it seems like that guy was actually right and you are just refusing to see weaknesses in the build. I'm a protoss player btw before any "Zerg bias you have no idea what you are talking about"
You do realize that Zerg has 25 infestors.. and nothing else right ? Like.. 25 infestors.. and 1600 gas in bank ? So let's assume for a second that he already has 16 corruptors. That's 25 infestors + 16 corruptors versus 1 mothership, 29 voidrays and 3 carriers. Army wise that's rouhgly 80 food vs 120 food. Assuming full upgrades on both sides, the result of a direct fight is a slaughter in protoss favor.. like.. it's not even close... and by direct fight I mean, not even relying on vortex ! I mean, if you're going to criticize the build, you better have some experience with it, or test compos in a map unit, or whatever. To me it seems like you have absolutely no clue how strong that compo is. That Zerg was 100% dead. Just run a unit tester and see by yourself. Now if he had 7000 gas in bank it would have been a different story.. That protoss army is so immobile. Yes 1.6k gas so 16 corruptors, but with 4 bases fully mining gas at around 800 gas per min how long do you think it would take him to get more?? Also using a unit tester comparison in a case like this is stupid. At the very least he could have sacced the top base giving him time for corruptors and more energy on the infestors as he has 7k banked it doesnt matter much. Think about it. 25 full energy infestors and he probably would have added a few more with the corroptors. Thats like 50 fungals and over 100 infested terran PLUS the corruptors which in that number would one shot a mothership/carrier. Im not saying the build doesnt have potential, although i think it would get crushed by a lot of things/by actually good zergs, i am just saying that the posted screenshot was a waste of time trying to prove a point. If the zerg wasn't retarded he WOULD NOT have lost that game, simple as that
You are an idiot. I love how "roughly 45% energy" is the new "full energy"
http://drop.sc/171090
+ Show Spoiler +
On June 06 2012 12:39 iAmBiGbiRd wrote:
i am just saying that the posted screenshot was a waste of time trying to prove a point. If the zerg wasn't retarded he WOULD NOT have lost that game, simple as that
It's not a waste of time, I'm not going to tolerate lying, and I will hold those who do it accountable.
I clearly point out where the player is lying in an attempt to mislead people and boost his own ego.
You can theorycraft all you want about how the game could have continued, you can spam different statistics, but based on my experience, you are wrong, and my advantage is decisive, but this doesn't really matter, thats the point.
The whole point is, I wanted to practice my build (including the lategame) to further increase my samplesize of games that I can learn from, and to actually have a replay of a lategame to review. If I was playing a helpful practice partner, and not a lying scumbag, we wouldn't be having this discussion right now.
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I checked the OP, but is opener what the Air Force Ace player did? I feel some sort of gateway pressure should be used early in the game to keep the Z from making too many drones and 13 minute hive trololololing. Is this build possible following a 4 gate +1 timing?
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On June 06 2012 12:50 NoMicroWin wrote:
I checked the OP, but is opener what the Air Force Ace player did? I feel some sort of gateway pressure should be used early in the game to keep the Z from making too many drones and 13 minute hive trololololing. Is this build possible following a 4 gate +1 timing?
With this style you don't really care about Hive, imo. But having said that, I think using a timing attack in conjunction with this is pretty viable. But the goal of a timing attack is to try and limit the number of drones/bases/geysers the zerg can acquire, and if you happen to delay tech then thats just a bonus. Adrenal is the only HiveTech that is pretty annoying. Broodlords only come into play in very lategame.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i432.photobucket.com/albums/qq47/andrewmboccia/lol.jpg)
