I saw HuK do it in NASL (the build itself looked pretty odd, as it was 16 nex -> gate -> forge _> double gas into zealot sentry with cannon support and fast +1 attack ( at about 5 minutes)

Banchan

United States179 Posts

April 15 2012 20:52 GMT

It looks like it was Oz that did the FFE vs terran, not Parting

or maybe I'm just missing something here?

Oz also debuted a build that was entirely new to the GSL, an unintuitive but effective forge fast expansion into three bases with fast upgrades.

Dubsy

Canada186 Posts

April 15 2012 21:00 GMT

Hero uses this against ryung in An NASL game.

You have to be VERY sure what you're up against. It's good against gasless expands and really puts you in great shape against 4 rax marine follow ups. Good 2 rax and quick stim timings can just kill you, especially maps without 2 ff ramps at the nat.

0/2 or 1/2 chargelots with GS can be hilarious against 0/0 or 1/0 infantry.

Squigly

United Kingdom629 Posts

April 15 2012 21:00 GMT

Ive had P 15 nexus into forge into gate + cannon + cannon. Ive tried simply 3 raxing and busting it down, and that dies miserably. Im pretty sure the response is simply 1 rax FE into 3rd CC.

Just like if you see a 15 nexus you can throw down a 3rd CC, as FFE is simply a safer 15 nexus.

Andreas

Norway214 Posts

April 15 2012 21:03 GMT

If you 2rax at 12 and 14 supply you can get to the cannon with 3 marines if you scout it in time, but otherwise I think the only way you can "counter" this is by some kind of early tank push or a drop play to avoid the cannons altogether.

lifeangelus

51 Posts

April 15 2012 22:37 GMT

I have seen it pop up at tip top level play here and there over the last month. The most common build order seen and Ive been using it to on certain maps. Terrain is very important for the build. It goes

2 chrono on probes.
16 nexus
17 forge
18 pylon
18 gateway
19 cannon
20 double gas

I also chain sentrys out of the first gate once I can. Helps with silly 2/3/4 rax stuff and chruses any early aggression after a terran expand.

From here it varies on what you scout. If you scout 2 rax you chrono the wg and drop 2-3 extra gateways at 32-33 supply. If its gasless expand chrono the hell out of your probes. It puts you in a great economic position its crazy.

Get +1 armor and weapons whenever you feel comfortable. If have been getting it almost as soon as I get 100 gas and i have yet to see someone who can punish me. You can have your upgrade done in time for 1/1/1 variations and it helps so much.

Always scout the map for an early third from terran because you will need to take one. Sorry the build is not super detailed but its very scout dependant. I have yet to lose using this build at a masters level. So close to GM

lifeangelus

51 Posts

April 15 2012 22:39 GMT

Also to those saying drops and tanks will crush this. It will not. I have had gm friend terrans do all soughts of 1/1/1 variationns and barracks play knowning I am forge expanding and they cant punish it. The economy of this build allows you to support 5 gateways and a robo so early in the game. Much earlier then most builds.

edit: just read the post about 12/14 rax. No you can get 1 marine there in time everything else is way to late. the cannon actually finishes before the scouting scv gets to the base alot of the time and the have to play in the dark

phiinix

United States1169 Posts

April 15 2012 22:42 GMT

#10

Yea I think you have to metagame a little bit. I wouldn't be surprised at all if a forge build auto loses or puts protoss at a significant disadvantage in a lot of other situations. I always open gas, and protoss can be in a sticky situation a lot of times if say, a bunker with a reaper gets into your natural. Also, if protoss commits to too many cannons, it makes early drop play really hard to deal with. However if you know, or are willing to bet that terran will open gasless, I think it's a pretty good way to go.

Of course, there may be a way to outright punish it, but it's pretty new so we just don't know yet.

Genome852

United States979 Posts

April 15 2012 22:43 GMT

#11

What if the T just gets a reaper?

And wouldn't it be much harder to deal with the 9-10 minute attack with 2 medivacs since your gateways are delayed?

lifeangelus

51 Posts

April 15 2012 22:46 GMT

#12

If they open gas just got zealot stalker then sentry out of your first gateway. Your all theory crafting. Until you see the economy through correct decision making you cant judge on if certain pushes will work. If your on 1 base and have not kill the forge FE withing 7minutes your gonna lose. a protoss will be maxed saturation on both bases so so early.

EienShinwa

United States655 Posts

April 15 2012 22:49 GMT

#13

Why FFE when you can just nexus first.....?

lifeangelus

51 Posts

April 15 2012 22:50 GMT

#14

It is nexus first eienshinwa? It is done for the early upgrades. having 1-1 at the 8minute mark in the game is so helpful.

Willzzz

United Kingdom774 Posts

April 15 2012 22:56 GMT

#15

I can't see this working as a regular tactic, any sort of early elevator play is going to do serious damage.

lifeangelus

51 Posts

April 15 2012 23:03 GMT

#16

Thankfully elevator play comes to late so its a non issue

EienShinwa

United States655 Posts

April 15 2012 23:18 GMT

#17

On April 16 2012 07:50 lifeangelus wrote:
It is nexus first eienshinwa? It is done for the early upgrades. having 1-1 at the 8minute mark in the game is so helpful.

Oh, so nexus first into forges + cannons? Why not just nexus first into gateway then cyber and add more gates?

Jazzman88

Canada2228 Posts

April 15 2012 23:31 GMT

#18

It just messes up the timings that most Protoss are used to with 1-gate FEs. You can support the 5 gates plus the robo or upgrades a bit earlier, but you DO sacrifice some defense early. Good sentry control is paramount. If you can use your sentry count with enough meat shield zealots to neutralize the stim timings that Terran feed on Protoss with, then you can be in good shape. One thing to be careful of is that FFE is more defensive that early gateway expands, because the gateways/warp gate is delayed. It's possible for the Terran to spot your FFE, decide he's not going to pressure it, and just immediately take a quick third and be up even further. He'll then tech straight to ghosts and double ups, and be ready to combat whatever tech path you choose unless you spot HIS quick third and match it with your own. He'll have a narrow window to take his third and get enough Barracks up to deflect any delayed pressure you put on, so keep scouting aggressively.

lifeangelus

51 Posts

April 16 2012 00:08 GMT

#19

I posted the build order before and it shows nexus first. Also people who think WG is HEAPS delayed you can have it warpgate done sub 6:30mins depending on chrono. You have a 2nd nexus building chrono energy which helps heaps.

AC3

Canada337 Posts

April 16 2012 00:11 GMT

#20

On April 16 2012 07:50 lifeangelus wrote:
It is nexus first eienshinwa? It is done for the early upgrades. having 1-1 at the 8minute mark in the game is so helpful.

I don't believe its for early 1-1 upgrades, that may just be a side benefit of the build. The build is used by Oz on multiple occasions to take a very fast 3rd (before 7 minutes) against the Terran.

http://www.gomtv.net/2012gsls2/vod/67119/?set=4&lang= Is the first time Oz does this in his GSL group against oGsFin. You can see how tight the build is when wasting even a few force fields in the middle of the map ends means he can't hold off Fin's aggression.

http://www.gomtv.net/2012gsls2/vod/67119/?set=11&lang= In this game vs TSLPolt he executes the build to get an insane economy off of 3 bases very quickly. It also shows a great Terran response to this build, where he matches Oz's economic greed by taking an even faster 3rd of his own, and the game progresses into a macro war.