EPTOz also debuted a build that was entirely new to the GSL, an unintuitive but effective forge fast expansion into three bases with fast upgrades.
So if anyone could post build order I would be thankful. 
-Hilo
EDIT : It was Oz not PartinG
Forge fast expand vs terran
| Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy |
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Hilo
Estonia114 Posts
-Hilo EDIT : It was Oz not PartinG | ||
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
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NoMicroWin
United States688 Posts
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Banchan
United States179 Posts
or maybe I'm just missing something here? Oz also debuted a build that was entirely new to the GSL, an unintuitive but effective forge fast expansion into three bases with fast upgrades. | ||
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Dubsy
Canada186 Posts
You have to be VERY sure what you're up against. It's good against gasless expands and really puts you in great shape against 4 rax marine follow ups. Good 2 rax and quick stim timings can just kill you, especially maps without 2 ff ramps at the nat. 0/2 or 1/2 chargelots with GS can be hilarious against 0/0 or 1/0 infantry. | ||
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Squigly
United Kingdom629 Posts
Just like if you see a 15 nexus you can throw down a 3rd CC, as FFE is simply a safer 15 nexus. | ||
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Andreas
Norway214 Posts
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lifeangelus
51 Posts
2 chrono on probes. 16 nexus 17 forge 18 pylon 18 gateway 19 cannon 20 double gas I also chain sentrys out of the first gate once I can. Helps with silly 2/3/4 rax stuff and chruses any early aggression after a terran expand. From here it varies on what you scout. If you scout 2 rax you chrono the wg and drop 2-3 extra gateways at 32-33 supply. If its gasless expand chrono the hell out of your probes. It puts you in a great economic position its crazy. Get +1 armor and weapons whenever you feel comfortable. If have been getting it almost as soon as I get 100 gas and i have yet to see someone who can punish me. You can have your upgrade done in time for 1/1/1 variations and it helps so much. Always scout the map for an early third from terran because you will need to take one. Sorry the build is not super detailed but its very scout dependant. I have yet to lose using this build at a masters level. So close to GM | ||
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lifeangelus
51 Posts
edit: just read the post about 12/14 rax. No you can get 1 marine there in time everything else is way to late. the cannon actually finishes before the scouting scv gets to the base alot of the time and the have to play in the dark | ||
phiinix
United States1169 Posts
Of course, there may be a way to outright punish it, but it's pretty new so we just don't know yet. | ||
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Genome852
United States979 Posts
And wouldn't it be much harder to deal with the 9-10 minute attack with 2 medivacs since your gateways are delayed? | ||
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lifeangelus
51 Posts
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EienShinwa
United States655 Posts
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lifeangelus
51 Posts
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Willzzz
United Kingdom774 Posts
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lifeangelus
51 Posts
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EienShinwa
United States655 Posts
On April 16 2012 07:50 lifeangelus wrote: It is nexus first eienshinwa? It is done for the early upgrades. having 1-1 at the 8minute mark in the game is so helpful. Oh, so nexus first into forges + cannons? Why not just nexus first into gateway then cyber and add more gates? | ||
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Jazzman88
Canada2228 Posts
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lifeangelus
51 Posts
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AC3
Canada337 Posts
On April 16 2012 07:50 lifeangelus wrote: It is nexus first eienshinwa? It is done for the early upgrades. having 1-1 at the 8minute mark in the game is so helpful. I don't believe its for early 1-1 upgrades, that may just be a side benefit of the build. The build is used by Oz on multiple occasions to take a very fast 3rd (before 7 minutes) against the Terran. http://www.gomtv.net/2012gsls2/vod/67119/?set=4&lang= Is the first time Oz does this in his GSL group against oGsFin. You can see how tight the build is when wasting even a few force fields in the middle of the map ends means he can't hold off Fin's aggression. http://www.gomtv.net/2012gsls2/vod/67119/?set=11&lang= In this game vs TSLPolt he executes the build to get an insane economy off of 3 bases very quickly. It also shows a great Terran response to this build, where he matches Oz's economic greed by taking an even faster 3rd of his own, and the game progresses into a macro war. | ||
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lifeangelus
51 Posts
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pavement ist rad
United States226 Posts
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Micket
United Kingdom2163 Posts
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Inquisitor1323
370 Posts
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Inquisitor1323
370 Posts
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Carbonthief
United States289 Posts
On April 16 2012 07:43 Genome852 wrote: What if the T just gets a reaper? And wouldn't it be much harder to deal with the 9-10 minute attack with 2 medivacs since your gateways are delayed? Reaper rushes probably would be a pain to deal with since your cyber is delayed, but probably not autolose with good probe micro. 9-10 minute timing attacks however shouldn't be a problem. In general you want to finish your 2 base economy, and then start your 2 base production. FFE doesn't slow down 2 base production, only 1 base production. You get your gateway production started faster, actually, if you're allowed to play greedier earlier on. So the window for punishing this would have to be earlier than that. | ||
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Carbonthief
United States289 Posts
On April 16 2012 09:25 pavement ist rad wrote: I don't understand why you need the forge. If Terran expands, then Protoss FE is super safe and canons would be a waste of money. Well I would assume the cannon is just to deny scouting, not to be safe. The fast forge also allows you to start upgrades right away, which could lead to a faster +2 timing attack, or a faster +1 pressure. | ||
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Swift118
United Kingdom335 Posts
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Warzilla
Czech Republic311 Posts
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digmouse
China6329 Posts
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Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
On April 16 2012 07:43 Genome852 wrote: What if the T just gets a reaper? And wouldn't it be much harder to deal with the 9-10 minute attack with 2 medivacs since your gateways are delayed? If terran is opening reaper already then that kind of kills this pretty hard. If Terran decides to go reaper after scouting you, you can probably get a stalker out to deal with it without taking too much damage, maybe a probe loss or two. | ||
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GuoJing
France30 Posts
9 pylon 3 CB 17 nexus 17 forge (oz hides this forge with the first pylon being on a corner of his base) 18 pylon at natural ( so that you can build a canon at top of the ramp) 18 gate 19 canon (except if you scouted cc first maybe ?) 20 double gas 24 core 25 zealot adjust your CB depending on what you scouted or if you want to be greedy or not. main things in order (in case you scout there will be no aggression i guess) : +1 armor WG stalker, sentry + 2 gates nexus @ third base Robo +1 attack (@60% +1 : twilight council) more gates etc. choose your tech path etc. | ||
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vBr
Sweden193 Posts
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Nihonjin
66 Posts
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RandomAccount#216215
76 Posts
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tar
Germany991 Posts
On April 18 2012 02:39 isrtor2 wrote: FFE against terran...im tired of bad discussions. The reason is that a reaper will reach your base before you can have a stalker out and deny mining or kill probes for long enough to make the FE not worth / will outright lose you the game. The fact that you might(if your opponent doesnt multitask well) trap the reaper with probes is true but quite bad to say the least. How will you deal with fast banshee? helion drop? and more... the fact that the cannons delay your gateways and other core infrastructure means that holding anything but a frontal(on the ramp) mm attack into your cannon will be even more difficult. Sure this build could work against some builds, the terran may scout late / prehaps will be going for some FE build that will not allow him to get reapers/banshees/drops/tanks fast enough but as MC likes to say: " this is not a poker game", we need builds that can deal with most builds that could come out of our opponet. You might consider stop infusing a valid discussion with bad arguments then Fast banshee is not gonna kill you since u can either add cannons to ur mineral line or get a fast robo when u scout a terran not expanding gasless. Just saw a game today (code A i think, gotta check the vods once I am back home) where exactly that scenario happened and detection was out in time (even though the toss screwed up - his army being out of position). As to the other points u come up with: the boost in economey u get by expanding that early will give the possibility to hold any push that tries to circumvent ur cannons, since those attacks come late enough to let ur FE pay off ( they gotta wait for medivac/banshee-tech finishing). With regard to the reaper expand: There are always build orders that put u behind against certain builds, this one however seems to be a relatively save way to open nexus first (Hero defended a 2 rax from alive with this opener at MCSL). And u can minimize the damage from reapers with good micro and might end up even with the later expanding Terran. There are different builds, this is a very save macro opener for certain maps, no need for u to talk down on the whole discussion just because you have concerns... | ||
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
The build looks fairly economical while granting some extra safety against "tricky gasless multirax" play. If you play on ladder and you don't encounter much of that, I suggest you just don't do this build at all and go for usual nexus into double gates or even 1 gate FE. Edit: The game was Hero vs aLive, TL vs fnatic, MCSL (currently broadcasting) | ||
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Cyro
United Kingdom20285 Posts
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Aerohank
12 Posts
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Hiea
Denmark1538 Posts
With the cannon your much safer vs 2rax than a standard nexus first. A reaper will do damage yes, but if you get such an early reaper, the chances are your expansion is delayed aswell, so its probably gonna end up about even or abit in his favor unless he messes up his control. | ||
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alyselol
100 Posts
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Swift118
United Kingdom335 Posts
On April 18 2012 04:51 ZenithM wrote: I think the Korean metagame involves a lot of mindgame regarding gasless openings from Terran (expand? or multirax play?). I just saw Hero use the Nexus first into gate + forge against aLive, and aLive had gone gasless but coincidentally enough for a second rax proxied in the middle of Metropolis. He pulled SCVs with his marine attack, but HerO defended with 1 cannon, 1 zealot and 6-7 Probes without losing a single unit and with aLive losing 5 SCVs. The build looks fairly economical while granting some extra safety against "tricky gasless multirax" play. If you play on ladder and you don't encounter much of that, I suggest you just don't do this build at all and go for usual nexus into double gates or even 1 gate FE. Edit: The game was Hero vs aLive, TL vs fnatic, MCSL (currently broadcasting) Of course. People really should not get too excited about a build that one pro uses in a tourny. A lot of mind games going on between 2 pros who probably know each others game pretty damn well. As for a couple of people who called it a "safe opener" well I not sure anyone could say that. If the Terran scouts, spots a ffe and they have opened gas they can instantly put tech lab on rax, drop another rax and commit to 2 rax reaper and still get their expo up in reasonble time while doing horrible damage to the Protoss player, even if your plan is to wait for a Stalker to help defend, the time you have a Stalker in an opener like ffe the Terran could have enough reapers to deal with it anyways. | ||
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BoondockVeritas
United States191 Posts
On April 16 2012 08:18 EienShinwa wrote: Oh, so nexus first into forges + cannons? Why not just nexus first into gateway then cyber and add more gates? You can go nexus into more gates, but I think you use the forge because just gateway units get destroyed too quickly by barracks units so you're stuck on two bases longer. If you have the cannon at the top of the ramp and some ff control with a couple zealots, you can take the faster third base. I saw sage do it on his stream last night and idk what triggered it and why he only did it once when he won so convincingly with it. It looks and sounds like it's really tight opening and has variation depending on your opponent. | ||
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BoondockVeritas
United States191 Posts
On April 18 2012 06:29 Swift118 wrote: Of course. People really should not get too excited about a build that one pro uses in a tourny. A lot of mind games going on between 2 pros who probably know each others game pretty damn well. As for a couple of people who called it a "safe opener" well I not sure anyone could say that. If the Terran scouts, spots a ffe and they have opened gas they can instantly put tech lab on rax, drop another rax and commit to 2 rax reaper and still get their expo up in reasonble time while doing horrible damage to the Protoss player, even if your plan is to wait for a Stalker to help defend, the time you have a Stalker in an opener like ffe the Terran could have enough reapers to deal with it anyways. I know what you're saying about hype between pros in one game, but it's now been a few different pros doing it. It's also looking like more of a nexus first into standard play with just a forge thrown in for some defense and added bonus of upgrades quicker. | ||
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boxman22
Canada430 Posts
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boxman22
Canada430 Posts
As a test I also went with some guy's response of throw down another rax with a tech lab when you see it, however that actually hit after the reaper popping out. So that would mean another 45 seconds before another reaper and then another 25 seconds till another after that... Edit: Since my plat mechanics aren't the greatest I used sc2planner: http://sc2planner.com/#TaaaaoEaaoFdaoDaacoCjoEjafaoPalaoAa reaper in terran base by 4:44 http://sc2planner.com/#PaaaoCafaafaaafaaoAoEoCoDaoGfaaoBoBafaoFccaaaaafaafj stalker pops by 5:32. So you have less than 1 minute to make it across the map and deal damage. I built a reaper on ohana and ran it ramp to ramp. Took 42 seconds. So given 2 perfect builds you'd have a reaper out for 6 seconds before a stalker on ohana... Also keep in mind this is against nexus first. So you have to deal MASSIVE damage to keep up given delaying the CC. sc2planner shows 22 scvs vs 32 probes at 5:32, still with expo CC unfinished. Making only scvs and probes until that CC finishes and becomes an orbital shows, 38 probes to 25 scvs... Probably need at least 5 probe kills with that reaper to make it worth it. | ||
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rauk
United States2228 Posts
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Drowsy
United States4876 Posts
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-Exalt-
United States972 Posts
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Zarahtra
Iceland4053 Posts
On April 18 2012 15:59 Drowsy wrote: This build is seriously amazing and awesome. I've only done it in a few ladders and I need to grind it out with a practice partner trying to poke holes in it still. It seems like you're only a little bit behind vs a fast 3rd cc from terran and can conceivably go for an early 6-7 gate allin if he goes that route. I'm really curious as to how this plays against the marauder hellion strategies that defeat normal nexus first pvt builds. Its so easy to tech to colossi and get double upgrades running really quickly with this build. Assuming he plays a relatively standard gasless expand with a 3rd around 9-10 minutes, you can easily have 3/3 done by the 15-16 minute mark and have dropped a 3rd nexus by 11 minutes AND have colossi tech to defend it. Great fun! Well a 9 minute 3rd is really late(or did you mean to go to the 3rd and saturate it?). I really don't understand this build. Looking at how Thorzain vs Alicia in NASL, this is exactly how I'd play it out, even if I had gas, I'd just pull my scvs out of there and get a 3rd CC. Heck you could even delay the bunker at the front. Then at 9-10 minutes you come knocking with 2-4 medivacs and can start dropping. I just don't understand how this build *can* work, since a terran can just attack you at your weakest point and ignore any cannon you've made. Furtheremore if the toss takes the 3rd, he's really only spreading himself out thinner and it will force more cannons and make drop harrass easier. I just don't understand how it can work, seeing as a nexus first/FE in PvT(as an example of why its solid and hard to punish for terran even though toss has less army value) really only works due to ffs and the lack of medivacs, which at the 3rd nexus timing, ffs will be a bit obsolete(well there won't be as good ramp to ff) and medivacs will be out. Edit: So I mean for a 2 base allin with +2 armor or something, maybe it's worth it, but for macro games in the least, I just feel the terran can just see your cards and trump you via a better econ build. | ||
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oOOoOphidian
United States1402 Posts
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IDEnergy
Korea (South)74 Posts
Most recent I remeber was against ForGG in Code S round 32. Build timings... uh i don't remember to specific timings but one thing i remeber for sure was he went for fast 1-1 upgrades. | ||
EG.Thorzain
Sweden164 Posts
I don't like it very much tho. If the terran is gasless, triple OC builds will be good against it. If the terran goes gas, an early elevator will come 1 minute before warpgates are even done, and it will be very hard for the protoss to stop it. It's very hard for the protoss to know what's coming when going up against a gas build going FFE. They have to build more cannons in anticipation of pushes at the front, so they will be even weaker against elevators in the main. | ||
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RandomAccount#216215
76 Posts
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Oatsboats
United States20 Posts
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Hilo
Estonia114 Posts
On April 18 2012 17:48 Thorzain wrote: RoX.KiS.Pomi, the russian protoss, has been doing this build for a couple of months already. I don't like it very much tho. If the terran is gasless, triple OC builds will be good against it. If the terran goes gas, an early elevator will come 1 minute before warpgates are even done, and it will be very hard for the protoss to stop it. It's very hard for the protoss to know what's coming when going up against a gas build going FFE. They have to build more cannons in anticipation of pushes at the front, so they will be even weaker against elevators in the main. Yea but if you see terran being passive , can't you take fast 3rd... + you have fast upgrades done... and it worked in Code S... but I think we just have to see the future of it.. maybe if you don't see gasless FE then you can put cannon in main? ( Most likely to attacked by reaper there ) .. I am masters but I haven't tried this build but.. I think it has future | ||
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DoctorFunk
160 Posts
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tar
Germany991 Posts
On April 18 2012 23:32 isrtor2 wrote: As i noted, if you get cannon at your front and cannon at each mineral line just to defend all the possible things, the terran might as well get a fast third upon reaching your base and scouting this. You do not want to get cannons- if terran goes fast banshee and you made 2 cannons , then that banshee has allready payed for itself. The terran player can cancel any more banshees and put down a fast third cc... do some tech lab switching and continue his regular MMM after banshee build. If terran goes for a fast helion drop you will have a very hard time defending, since you have at most 3-4 stalkers(check timing if you want) and they need to be very well positioned or else you will lose a lot of probes. Hell.. most of the time you will probably just have 2 stalkers and the rest is zealot sentire you outright lose at least half ur workers unless terran controlls the drop very poorly. I checked the timing for first stalker in respect to reaper first when going FFE and i just want to say : LOL, good luck with probe micro.. and better gg and not try to catch up(the timing various but the reaper should have a 20-40seconds! yeah thats actually 40 seconds! timing window to snipe probes) so what, i still don't see a reason for u to talk down on the discussion. It seems to be a valid build for certain maps and it has its advantages and disadvantages and it shouldn't die to most standard pressure into eco openers from T. Also, so far I have only seen that build being used on 4 player maps with and without scouts from toss. Without a first position scout by the Terran,he won't be able to punish u with a perfect timing if he didn't intend to use exactly that build either way. In addition, the nowadys all so popular depot-rax-depot wall in (which prevents ur probe from getting into his base), leads T to scout even later. And now to the (or rather your) banshee argument: if it's one base Banshee into expand, a banshee forcing 2 cannons (which remain as drop defenses) do not negate the investment for going banshees off 1 base against a nex first and also do not allow T to take a fast 3rd. IF it's FE into Banshee with cloak (rare enough) there won't be a need for detection until much later which should be enough time for P to react accordingly (yet FE into banshee with cloak is so uncommon that most Tosses die to it anyways) With regard to the fast 3rd response after a FE from T: That might be the major weakness of this build. Thorzain stated as much and I think he knows what he is talking about  Yet, we might see pro-tosses refine this build further to hit certain timings that then punish the fast 3rd.I am not defending this build as being the holy grail of PvT but I can't stand ppl telling everyone that they have no clue and should shut up because 'insert random unsupported argument here'. edit: HerO just opened nex first/forge in his game against Mvp - him in response taking a fast hidden 3rd. HerO going for robo for obs and twilight tech as well as fast +2 armor to transition into chargelot archon wit a 12ish 3rd base + Show Spoiler + edit 2: HerO, never scouting Mvp's hidden 3rd, getting out macro'd thinking he is on even bases, yet holding his ground for an incredible long time (fanboy talking ) | ||
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