EPTForge fast expand vs terran - Page 3
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alyselol
100 Posts
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Swift118
United Kingdom335 Posts
On April 18 2012 04:51 ZenithM wrote: I think the Korean metagame involves a lot of mindgame regarding gasless openings from Terran (expand? or multirax play?). I just saw Hero use the Nexus first into gate + forge against aLive, and aLive had gone gasless but coincidentally enough for a second rax proxied in the middle of Metropolis. He pulled SCVs with his marine attack, but HerO defended with 1 cannon, 1 zealot and 6-7 Probes without losing a single unit and with aLive losing 5 SCVs. The build looks fairly economical while granting some extra safety against "tricky gasless multirax" play. If you play on ladder and you don't encounter much of that, I suggest you just don't do this build at all and go for usual nexus into double gates or even 1 gate FE. Edit: The game was Hero vs aLive, TL vs fnatic, MCSL (currently broadcasting) Of course. People really should not get too excited about a build that one pro uses in a tourny. A lot of mind games going on between 2 pros who probably know each others game pretty damn well. As for a couple of people who called it a "safe opener" well I not sure anyone could say that. If the Terran scouts, spots a ffe and they have opened gas they can instantly put tech lab on rax, drop another rax and commit to 2 rax reaper and still get their expo up in reasonble time while doing horrible damage to the Protoss player, even if your plan is to wait for a Stalker to help defend, the time you have a Stalker in an opener like ffe the Terran could have enough reapers to deal with it anyways. | ||
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BoondockVeritas
United States191 Posts
On April 16 2012 08:18 EienShinwa wrote: Oh, so nexus first into forges + cannons? Why not just nexus first into gateway then cyber and add more gates? You can go nexus into more gates, but I think you use the forge because just gateway units get destroyed too quickly by barracks units so you're stuck on two bases longer. If you have the cannon at the top of the ramp and some ff control with a couple zealots, you can take the faster third base. I saw sage do it on his stream last night and idk what triggered it and why he only did it once when he won so convincingly with it. It looks and sounds like it's really tight opening and has variation depending on your opponent. | ||
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BoondockVeritas
United States191 Posts
On April 18 2012 06:29 Swift118 wrote: Of course. People really should not get too excited about a build that one pro uses in a tourny. A lot of mind games going on between 2 pros who probably know each others game pretty damn well. As for a couple of people who called it a "safe opener" well I not sure anyone could say that. If the Terran scouts, spots a ffe and they have opened gas they can instantly put tech lab on rax, drop another rax and commit to 2 rax reaper and still get their expo up in reasonble time while doing horrible damage to the Protoss player, even if your plan is to wait for a Stalker to help defend, the time you have a Stalker in an opener like ffe the Terran could have enough reapers to deal with it anyways. I know what you're saying about hype between pros in one game, but it's now been a few different pros doing it. It's also looking like more of a nexus first into standard play with just a forge thrown in for some defense and added bonus of upgrades quicker. | ||
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boxman22
Canada430 Posts
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boxman22
Canada430 Posts
As a test I also went with some guy's response of throw down another rax with a tech lab when you see it, however that actually hit after the reaper popping out. So that would mean another 45 seconds before another reaper and then another 25 seconds till another after that... Edit: Since my plat mechanics aren't the greatest I used sc2planner: http://sc2planner.com/#TaaaaoEaaoFdaoDaacoCjoEjafaoPalaoAa reaper in terran base by 4:44 http://sc2planner.com/#PaaaoCafaafaaafaaoAoEoCoDaoGfaaoBoBafaoFccaaaaafaafj stalker pops by 5:32. So you have less than 1 minute to make it across the map and deal damage. I built a reaper on ohana and ran it ramp to ramp. Took 42 seconds. So given 2 perfect builds you'd have a reaper out for 6 seconds before a stalker on ohana... Also keep in mind this is against nexus first. So you have to deal MASSIVE damage to keep up given delaying the CC. sc2planner shows 22 scvs vs 32 probes at 5:32, still with expo CC unfinished. Making only scvs and probes until that CC finishes and becomes an orbital shows, 38 probes to 25 scvs... Probably need at least 5 probe kills with that reaper to make it worth it. | ||
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rauk
United States2228 Posts
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Drowsy
United States4876 Posts
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-Exalt-
United States972 Posts
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Zarahtra
Iceland4053 Posts
On April 18 2012 15:59 Drowsy wrote: This build is seriously amazing and awesome. I've only done it in a few ladders and I need to grind it out with a practice partner trying to poke holes in it still. It seems like you're only a little bit behind vs a fast 3rd cc from terran and can conceivably go for an early 6-7 gate allin if he goes that route. I'm really curious as to how this plays against the marauder hellion strategies that defeat normal nexus first pvt builds. Its so easy to tech to colossi and get double upgrades running really quickly with this build. Assuming he plays a relatively standard gasless expand with a 3rd around 9-10 minutes, you can easily have 3/3 done by the 15-16 minute mark and have dropped a 3rd nexus by 11 minutes AND have colossi tech to defend it. Great fun! Well a 9 minute 3rd is really late(or did you mean to go to the 3rd and saturate it?). I really don't understand this build. Looking at how Thorzain vs Alicia in NASL, this is exactly how I'd play it out, even if I had gas, I'd just pull my scvs out of there and get a 3rd CC. Heck you could even delay the bunker at the front. Then at 9-10 minutes you come knocking with 2-4 medivacs and can start dropping. I just don't understand how this build *can* work, since a terran can just attack you at your weakest point and ignore any cannon you've made. Furtheremore if the toss takes the 3rd, he's really only spreading himself out thinner and it will force more cannons and make drop harrass easier. I just don't understand how it can work, seeing as a nexus first/FE in PvT(as an example of why its solid and hard to punish for terran even though toss has less army value) really only works due to ffs and the lack of medivacs, which at the 3rd nexus timing, ffs will be a bit obsolete(well there won't be as good ramp to ff) and medivacs will be out. Edit: So I mean for a 2 base allin with +2 armor or something, maybe it's worth it, but for macro games in the least, I just feel the terran can just see your cards and trump you via a better econ build. | ||
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oOOoOphidian
United States1402 Posts
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IDEnergy
Korea (South)74 Posts
Most recent I remeber was against ForGG in Code S round 32. Build timings... uh i don't remember to specific timings but one thing i remeber for sure was he went for fast 1-1 upgrades. | ||
EG.Thorzain
Sweden164 Posts
I don't like it very much tho. If the terran is gasless, triple OC builds will be good against it. If the terran goes gas, an early elevator will come 1 minute before warpgates are even done, and it will be very hard for the protoss to stop it. It's very hard for the protoss to know what's coming when going up against a gas build going FFE. They have to build more cannons in anticipation of pushes at the front, so they will be even weaker against elevators in the main. | ||
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RandomAccount#216215
76 Posts
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Oatsboats
United States20 Posts
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Hilo
Estonia114 Posts
On April 18 2012 17:48 Thorzain wrote: RoX.KiS.Pomi, the russian protoss, has been doing this build for a couple of months already. I don't like it very much tho. If the terran is gasless, triple OC builds will be good against it. If the terran goes gas, an early elevator will come 1 minute before warpgates are even done, and it will be very hard for the protoss to stop it. It's very hard for the protoss to know what's coming when going up against a gas build going FFE. They have to build more cannons in anticipation of pushes at the front, so they will be even weaker against elevators in the main. Yea but if you see terran being passive , can't you take fast 3rd... + you have fast upgrades done... and it worked in Code S... but I think we just have to see the future of it.. maybe if you don't see gasless FE then you can put cannon in main? ( Most likely to attacked by reaper there ) .. I am masters but I haven't tried this build but.. I think it has future  | ||
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DoctorFunk
160 Posts
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tar
Germany991 Posts
On April 18 2012 23:32 isrtor2 wrote: As i noted, if you get cannon at your front and cannon at each mineral line just to defend all the possible things, the terran might as well get a fast third upon reaching your base and scouting this. You do not want to get cannons- if terran goes fast banshee and you made 2 cannons , then that banshee has allready payed for itself. The terran player can cancel any more banshees and put down a fast third cc... do some tech lab switching and continue his regular MMM after banshee build. If terran goes for a fast helion drop you will have a very hard time defending, since you have at most 3-4 stalkers(check timing if you want) and they need to be very well positioned or else you will lose a lot of probes. Hell.. most of the time you will probably just have 2 stalkers and the rest is zealot sentire you outright lose at least half ur workers unless terran controlls the drop very poorly. I checked the timing for first stalker in respect to reaper first when going FFE and i just want to say : LOL, good luck with probe micro.. and better gg and not try to catch up(the timing various but the reaper should have a 20-40seconds! yeah thats actually 40 seconds! timing window to snipe probes) so what, i still don't see a reason for u to talk down on the discussion. It seems to be a valid build for certain maps and it has its advantages and disadvantages and it shouldn't die to most standard pressure into eco openers from T. Also, so far I have only seen that build being used on 4 player maps with and without scouts from toss. Without a first position scout by the Terran,he won't be able to punish u with a perfect timing if he didn't intend to use exactly that build either way. In addition, the nowadys all so popular depot-rax-depot wall in (which prevents ur probe from getting into his base), leads T to scout even later. And now to the (or rather your) banshee argument: if it's one base Banshee into expand, a banshee forcing 2 cannons (which remain as drop defenses) do not negate the investment for going banshees off 1 base against a nex first and also do not allow T to take a fast 3rd. IF it's FE into Banshee with cloak (rare enough) there won't be a need for detection until much later which should be enough time for P to react accordingly (yet FE into banshee with cloak is so uncommon that most Tosses die to it anyways) With regard to the fast 3rd response after a FE from T: That might be the major weakness of this build. Thorzain stated as much and I think he knows what he is talking about  Yet, we might see pro-tosses refine this build further to hit certain timings that then punish the fast 3rd.I am not defending this build as being the holy grail of PvT but I can't stand ppl telling everyone that they have no clue and should shut up because 'insert random unsupported argument here'. edit: HerO just opened nex first/forge in his game against Mvp - him in response taking a fast hidden 3rd. HerO going for robo for obs and twilight tech as well as fast +2 armor to transition into chargelot archon wit a 12ish 3rd base + Show Spoiler + edit 2: HerO, never scouting Mvp's hidden 3rd, getting out macro'd thinking he is on even bases, yet holding his ground for an incredible long time (fanboy talking ) | ||
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