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Rannasha
Netherlands2398 Posts
On April 10 2012 18:17 blacklist_member wrote: What if the zerg goes muta? Doesn't this leave you really vulnerable to mutas? This build hits just before the 8 minute mark. Which Zerg already has Mutas at that point? If they rush for Mutas to get them out at 8 minutes, you should be able to scout the very early gas and react accordingly. | ||
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MilesTeg
France1271 Posts
Anyway it looks good (if you want to all-in). I think from the Zerg perspective once you recognise it's an all-in you might as well let one base go and try to save the others, which should be possible with good micro and a 7:20-ish roach warren. Saving the queens should be the priority, but it's not that easy. It looks really hard to defend for how easy it is to execute. I don't recommend the TLO replay (mass upgraded speedling build - it hit before the upgrades... ouch) and the Odin replay (early failed aggression, no roach warren). The vVvToXSiK replay probably gives the best idea of what it should be like. Other than that nice guide, time to learn how to play against it as I suspect it's going to get popular! | ||
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SupplyBlockedTV
Belgium313 Posts
PS: The build variation i use always hits before 2base muta timing..and i played tons of games with that build for months.. | ||
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coL.hendralisk
Zimbabwe1756 Posts
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jtixs
United Kingdom150 Posts
It will also really tax their strategic mind to out think the opponent. User was warned for this post | ||
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TemujinGK
United States483 Posts
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MooLen
Germany501 Posts
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
Mass gate attacks with few gas are really good but there is just no point in STOPPING to mine gas. If you continue to mine the gas (or just let two stay in gas for optimal gathering) you can make a zealot/stalker mix which is much better then pure zealot. Stalkers are a far more efficient use of warpgate build time then zealots are, in other words if you're making a high fraction of stalkers you won't be needing 10!!!! gates (which is a complete waste of money) but you can do with just 6. If you have 32 probes mining minerals and 4 to 6 on gas 6 gates is more then enough to have some overproduction, the 450-600 minerals you save can be put into units which makes the push much stronger. A zealot/stalker mix is also much better then pure zealots because you have something to micro and kite with. Pure zealots won't kill queens or roaches well if the zerg just micro's a little, you need stalkers to do that.. If you change this build but instead keep mining gas with 4 to 6 probes the build is strictly better. Only in the case of pure lings for defense would pure zealot be slightly better then zealot/stalker. The thing is though: if they go for pure lings you win anyway because +1 zealots massacre them, you need to have stalkers to deal with roaches which is their only way to stop a rush like this (unless they stay on 2 base and make a huge spine wall). Also your FFE build is odd, you're making the cannon way too early. In case you scout them right away 16 nex - 16 forge - 17 pylon - 17 gate - 18 cannon, is far better. The third chrono on your nexus is also just a waste.. you're mining like 5 minerals more only because you boost right into a probe cut. Overall the build can just be made much more efficient. | ||
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Arcanefrost
Belgium1257 Posts
On April 10 2012 19:56 Markwerf wrote: Also your FFE build is odd, you're making the cannon way too early. In case you scout them right away 16 nex - 16 forge - 17 pylon - 17 gate - 18 cannon, is far better. The third chrono on your nexus is also just a waste.. you're mining like 5 minerals more only because you boost right into a probe cut. Overall the build can just be made much more efficient. While not my personal preference either, his ffe build is pretty standard. | ||
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
On April 10 2012 20:03 Arcanefrost wrote: While not my personal preference either, his ffe build is pretty standard. The cannon is needlessly early, you can put the cannon after second pylon and gate on any map where the hole in the wall is easily plugged, pretty sure that's standard for most maps | ||
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oOOoOphidian
United States1402 Posts
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stakiman
Bulgaria42 Posts
Also the early roach warren helps for chronoed 4 zealots which come at your 3rd at around 7 minute. Also 150 minerals + drone isn't that much, considered you can lose the game or a hatchery. Remember - if you don't need defensive units, don't build them. And scout with overlords! ^^ Good luck zerg buddies, and all the best to the tosses, too!  | ||
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TheYellowOne
United States97 Posts
Also, you're meant to proxy all 10 gateways in the corner of the map so it doesn't get scouted and shut down easy mode. For example, the corner of the main in the close by ground main on shakuras, Saccing ovies to check gas timings/tech of choice is very prominent on servers like NA and it gives you no real means of denying it on most maps especially with smaller mains In addition, the actual build order you posted is extremely inefficient and once again shows how behind you are. 15 or 16 nex then forge variations have been proven to be safe and more economic; it's about the only alternative looking to achieve saturation ASAP. Further, if you actually knew how to play toss properly you'd know that chronoboost management is key with a build like this. you don't actually need to chrono nonstop, you can have the mineral build up to warp in 10 zealots easily; this implies you can save the chronoboosts to be able to chrono 6 or 7 of your gateways RIGHT after you warp in your first round. This then implies that you can wait for about 19 seconds and you'll get another round of zealots that actually don't get shut down by a few roaches idiots tend to preemptively make. Backing them up and losing one or two while also giving the zerg time to make a round of units that 19 seconds faster is just absurd. I don't know who taught you to all in in the amazing 1200's master leagues of NA but if you're going to make a manmode build you should at least give it some real thought before posting this as something people should imitate. You're just giving the server more of a bad name in saying poorly constructed build orders get you wins because it's NA. | ||
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Arcanefrost
Belgium1257 Posts
On April 10 2012 20:09 Markwerf wrote: The cannon is needlessly early, you can put the cannon after second pylon and gate on any map where the hole in the wall is easily plugged, pretty sure that's standard for most maps On second thought it's actually really bad to delay the gateway like this if you're going for a warpgate allin. I also agree on your other points, you definitely need some stalkers in there. | ||
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Chrozon
Norway16 Posts
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Harrison.
Sweden1 Post
On April 10 2012 16:05 Josh_rakoons wrote: Do you think delaying the all in for the sake of upgrading charge would be better? for example, skip the +1 and go for an immediate twilight council. Why would you want charge? Charge versus Zerg isn't that good. Helps a bit versus roaches, but the +1 is much more helpful and can also take of atleast 2 minutes of the timing, which let's the zerg get out roaches in time for the initial push. Delaying it to replace +1 with charge would therefore be a rather poor idea. | ||
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Grr Arr Rawr
United States108 Posts
On April 10 2012 15:49 Xana wrote: The all in is definitively powerful, especially if spread out, but I don't see Zergs being unable to respond to this. Well, there's no build, in any matchup, that one race is "unable to respond to". It's just about continuously adding more builds that might be effective in the right circumstance. | ||
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greg19735
United States15 Posts
i do this for my 4gate +1 zealot pressure vs zerg. The scary part is that i win probably 1/4 of my games with the pressure. now you're just adding 6 more gates... | ||
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kawaiiryuko
United States368 Posts
On April 10 2012 21:49 TheYellowOne wrote: This build has been around for almost an entire year now known as the DragonSlayer TripleX 10gate. If you were at all creative when coming up with builds you'd come up with a build that hasn't been around for a year before naming it after something else. Also, you're meant to proxy all 10 gateways in the corner of the map so it doesn't get scouted and shut down easy mode. For example, the corner of the main in the close by ground main on shakuras, Saccing ovies to check gas timings/tech of choice is very prominent on servers like NA and it gives you no real means of denying it on most maps especially with smaller mains In addition, the actual build order you posted is extremely inefficient and once again shows how behind you are. 15 or 16 nex then forge variations have been proven to be safe and more economic; it's about the only alternative looking to achieve saturation ASAP. Further, if you actually knew how to play toss properly you'd know that chronoboost management is key with a build like this. you don't actually need to chrono nonstop, you can have the mineral build up to warp in 10 zealots easily; this implies you can save the chronoboosts to be able to chrono 6 or 7 of your gateways RIGHT after you warp in your first round. This then implies that you can wait for about 19 seconds and you'll get another round of zealots that actually don't get shut down by a few roaches idiots tend to preemptively make. Backing them up and losing one or two while also giving the zerg time to make a round of units that 19 seconds faster is just absurd. I don't know who taught you to all in in the amazing 1200's master leagues of NA but if you're going to make a manmode build you should at least give it some real thought before posting this as something people should imitate. You're just giving the server more of a bad name in saying poorly constructed build orders get you wins because it's NA. Wow, how unnecessary. Given that Google returns 5 results (none relevant) for "DragonSlayer TripleX 10gate" and zero relevant results for "DragonSlayer TripleX 10 gate" I have no idea why you would attack a guy for posting a build that he enjoys as stealing from a non-public build from an unknown clan (? I don't even know what DragonSlayer TripleX is). Why does the proxying of 10 gate matter? Does that mean your base is completely devoid of gates? Surely, any scouting which reveal that a protoss base /with no gates/ would be a red flag, no? About the only reasonable thing you say is that chrono-management might be better off so that you can try to time two warp-ins very closely together before attacking. | ||
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caradoc
Canada3022 Posts
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