EPT[G] PvZ Zealot Dance Party Build - Page 5
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clazerxsniper
36 Posts
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uLysSeS1
Germany210 Posts
On April 12 2012 04:48 clazerxsniper wrote: I made this build almost a year ago, i didnt know i'd have to copyright it so people like you didnt steal it looking through your posts, can't find any guides made by you. please help me out on this one. | ||
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iAmJeffReY
United States4262 Posts
On April 12 2012 05:57 uLysSeS1 wrote: looking through your posts, can't find any guides made by you. please help me out on this one. No, he's arbitrarily claiming the build is his, and he made it, and this fellow copied it. | ||
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RemarK
United States452 Posts
On April 12 2012 04:48 clazerxsniper wrote: I made this build almost a year ago, i didnt know i'd have to copyright it so people like you didnt steal it Well, I came up with it on my own and I've never heard of you, feel free to make a guide for your build and call it something else if you'd like. @Whistle: Very good idea - move-commanding 2-3 zealots (in the second warp cycle I reckon) into the main mineral lines + to snipe queens would be a great idea. Thanks! Also, a bunch of people earlier were saying that they are of the opinion that making 10 gates and only zealots is stupid and way worse than a 6 gate with zealot stalker. However, the difference is that with 10 gates of zealot you can overpower 3-4 spines, whereas if they have even 2 spines at each base with a 6-gate, you lack the numbers to break that and you auto-lose. I was laddering last night and some of my viewers requested to see the build in action - I used it on a friendly high masters Zerg who had actually seen this guide and anticipated the build coming and still lost despite having 4~ preemptive spines at each base. It seems to me a lot of people are misunderstanding the nature of this build - as with all things in SC2, if you know 100% it is coming from the moment the game starts, you can easily defeat it. People have said things like "What if the Zerg makes 12 lings and is thus able to deny your stalker?" Well, that'd be a totally random, blind risk for the Zerg to do that - if I was just doing a normal 2-base all-in or a macro-oriented build, then that's 6 less drones they have to make Zerglings that accomplish nothing. Similarly, sure, a Zerg *could* start extractors earlier than normal, cut at 40 drones, and probably have 12 roaches out to greet my first warp-in. But again, that'd be totally useless and bad in a normal game, and by the time they could have scouted what I am doing, the opportunity to take such drastic actions will have passed. The reason this build is so effective is because of the current ZvP metagame. My only request is that before saying things like "Lol this won't work if zerg just makes roaches" or "6-gate with gas is way better," make sure you really understand the current standard timings in ZvP on the Zerg end. | ||
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
On April 12 2012 08:11 soLremarK wrote: Well, I came up with it on my own and I've never heard of you, feel free to make a guide for your build and call it something else if you'd like. @Whistle: Very good idea - move-commanding 2-3 zealots (in the second warp cycle I reckon) into the main mineral lines + to snipe queens would be a great idea. Thanks! Also, a bunch of people earlier were saying that they are of the opinion that making 10 gates and only zealots is stupid and way worse than a 6 gate with zealot stalker. However, the difference is that with 10 gates of zealot you can overpower 3-4 spines, whereas if they have even 2 spines at each base with a 6-gate, you lack the numbers to break that and you auto-lose. I was laddering last night and some of my viewers requested to see the build in action - I used it on a friendly high masters Zerg who had actually seen this guide and anticipated the build coming and still lost despite having 4~ preemptive spines at each base. It seems to me a lot of people are misunderstanding the nature of this build - as with all things in SC2, if you know 100% it is coming from the moment the game starts, you can easily defeat it. People have said things like "What if the Zerg makes 12 lings and is thus able to deny your stalker?" Well, that'd be a totally random, blind risk for the Zerg to do that - if I was just doing a normal 2-base all-in or a macro-oriented build, then that's 6 less drones they have to make Zerglings that accomplish nothing. Similarly, sure, a Zerg *could* start extractors earlier than normal, cut at 40 drones, and probably have 12 roaches out to greet my first warp-in. But again, that'd be totally useless and bad in a normal game, and by the time they could have scouted what I am doing, the opportunity to take such drastic actions will have passed. The reason this build is so effective is because of the current ZvP metagame. My only request is that before saying things like "Lol this won't work if zerg just makes roaches" or "6-gate with gas is way better," make sure you really understand the current standard timings in ZvP on the Zerg end. You're seriously thinking 2 spines at each base stops a 6 gate?? You easily snipe that with zealot/stalker. There are simply a couple reasons zealot/stalker is strictly better then this: - you have the two geysers anyway.. there is no point going for a 32 probe economy instead of a 38 (or 36) since you'll reach that point early enough anyways.. - pure zealot sucks vs roaches and is great vs pure ling. zealot/stalker is still good vs ling (courtesy of +1) but also has a good chance against roaches. - 10 gates is way too much, you can do with less gates using stalkers because they are a far more efficient use of warpgate. Less gates also makes it much easier to have those gates actually up when your warpins occur. That gate 7 to 10 are usually just too late for the first warpin round anyway... - with stalkers you have some speed and range, ie they can not simply run their drones/queen around waiting for their units to pop which they can vs pure zealot... also you're army will often be between nat and third with these tactics, stalkers punish them for running past you, zealots don't... - stalkers and mining gas provide much better transitions if needed. Sometimes it happens that you misread (they didn't go for a third and you still decided to rush) or they sacrifice the third and put a ton (6+) spines at the natural. With pure zealots you 1) can't punish a drone retreat from the third... and 2) can't transition well if they simply go 2 base roach... With stalkers you can easily go into blink while going up to 4 gas asap if they choose to sac the third and camp the nat.. There is not one reason to go this style over a zealot/stalker style, why would you pull guys of gas to make a unit (zealot) that's worse at rushing then the stalker.. Note that if they go pure ling you don't need to make as many stalkers.. you can simply go more zealot haevy then. You won't spend all your gas then but since lings are so rediculously inefficient vs +1 zealots that doesn't matter.. And yes +1 zeal/stalker is just better at punishing the greedy timings many zergs on ladder are doing these days.. One strat being effective for you doesn't mean another isn't just strictly better.. It is difficult for many zergs to stop these fast mass gate attacks but if they do it properly they WILL speed up their gas & roach timings based on what they scout. A combination of three easy things to scout easily gives away these fast mass gate attacks after FFE: lack of gasses at natural, quick spinning forge and frantic chronoboosting of the cybercore. Even if you were late with the initial 2 geysers you can still get the roach warren faster and throw down gas 3 and 4 faster to stop this, you can also cancel lair tech & evo against this... Proper scouting, adapting and macro and this isn't too hard to stop as zerg.. | ||
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RemarK
United States452 Posts
On April 12 2012 09:15 Markwerf wrote: You're seriously thinking 2 spines at each base stops a 6 gate?? You easily snipe that with zealot/stalker. There are simply a couple reasons zealot/stalker is strictly better then this: - you have the two geysers anyway.. there is no point going for a 32 probe economy instead of a 38 (or 36) since you'll reach that point early enough anyways.. - pure zealot sucks vs roaches and is great vs pure ling. zealot/stalker is still good vs ling (courtesy of +1) but also has a good chance against roaches. - 10 gates is way too much, you can do with less gates using stalkers because they are a far more efficient use of warpgate. Less gates also makes it much easier to have those gates actually up when your warpins occur. That gate 7 to 10 are usually just too late for the first warpin round anyway... - with stalkers you have some speed and range, ie they can not simply run their drones/queen around waiting for their units to pop which they can vs pure zealot... also you're army will often be between nat and third with these tactics, stalkers punish them for running past you, zealots don't... - stalkers and mining gas provide much better transitions if needed. Sometimes it happens that you misread (they didn't go for a third and you still decided to rush) or they sacrifice the third and put a ton (6+) spines at the natural. With pure zealots you 1) can't punish a drone retreat from the third... and 2) can't transition well if they simply go 2 base roach... With stalkers you can easily go into blink while going up to 4 gas asap if they choose to sac the third and camp the nat.. There is not one reason to go this style over a zealot/stalker style, why would you pull guys of gas to make a unit (zealot) that's worse at rushing then the stalker.. Note that if they go pure ling you don't need to make as many stalkers.. you can simply go more zealot haevy then. You won't spend all your gas then but since lings are so rediculously inefficient vs +1 zealots that doesn't matter.. And yes +1 zeal/stalker is just better at punishing the greedy timings many zergs on ladder are doing these days.. One strat being effective for you doesn't mean another isn't just strictly better.. It is difficult for many zergs to stop these fast mass gate attacks but if they do it properly they WILL speed up their gas & roach timings based on what they scout. A combination of three easy things to scout easily gives away these fast mass gate attacks after FFE: lack of gasses at natural, quick spinning forge and frantic chronoboosting of the cybercore. Even if you were late with the initial 2 geysers you can still get the roach warren faster and throw down gas 3 and 4 faster to stop this, you can also cancel lair tech & evo against this... Proper scouting, adapting and macro and this isn't too hard to stop as zerg.. If you're 6-gating, you'll have what, a zealot and a stalker on the field and a warp-in of 6 gateway units ~7:45? If they have the 6-8 roaches and 10+ lings they're supposed to have, plus 2 spines at each base, that's an easy hold for the Zerg. I think in the current metagame at least, this build is way stronger than a 6-gate with zealot stalker, and my own experiences on the ladder reflect that as well. I'd gladly test it out again though - if you can give me the basic execution of the build (when to cut probes, how many units to make before warp tech finishes, and if I'm supposed to pull probes off gas), I'll give it a whirl in some custom and ladder games and report back here. | ||
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Krighton
Canada6 Posts
Now that I've tried it a couple times on ladder (diamond level), my god... This makes me feel like a zerg player massing speedlings, except that such an insane number of zealots on the field this early is so much scarier than mass speedlings. The OP's comparison to this being the "PvZ equivalent of a groin punch" is pretty spot on. My results so far with this are pretty interesting. The only loss I had with it so far was due to my first run of it hitting extremely late (close to 2 minutes late) and him blindly going fast 2 base muta. The other games (which I won convincingly) had me facing mass speedling + spine, roaches (early roach warren) and speedlings into muta, where a few muta popped when all I had on the field were zealots, and no gas. Surprisingly, the zealots faired quite well vs the roach, due to the overwhelming nature of the 10 gates and proxy pylons. Against the ling/muta, the small number of muta that popped were basically useless vs my mass zealots. It was similar to making a couple void rays to defend a massive roach counter attack (without a cannon wall). I put a few probes on gas, made a handful of stalkers and cleaned up the muta without barely a scratch. I feel like this is just the sort of thing needed to put zerg back in check and punish them for being so greedy (i.e. stephano style). It's also very difficult to know that this might be coming, since it pretty much looks like a standard FFE, until it's too late. | ||
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Shadowslain
Canada15 Posts
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sanddbox_sc2
United States173 Posts
 Very scary build, although I was pretty rusty so I didn't even deny the proxy pylon. I think the real strength of the build is that if the overlord is killed and you don't sac another over you don't really have an easy way to know it's coming. | ||
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NotYetAWoman
Norway49 Posts
^ ^ ^ Worked at high masters/Low GM MMR, Lots of rage is expected. Might write a guide on it myself if i get the time.  Sadly its really risky tho, seeing as if your pylon/probe gets spotted, ur done, but with 2x Rays u can Kill any Scouting ling/Overlord to sneak the probe in the right position. Genius build imo.OT: Well written guide, Love builds like this when im tired of 30+ min games vs a zerg or get really frustrated. as stated above, been doing variants of Heavy Zealot play for a while. feelsgoodman.jpg | ||
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
On April 12 2012 10:03 soLremarK wrote: If you're 6-gating, you'll have what, a zealot and a stalker on the field and a warp-in of 6 gateway units ~7:45? If they have the 6-8 roaches and 10+ lings they're supposed to have, plus 2 spines at each base, that's an easy hold for the Zerg. I think in the current metagame at least, this build is way stronger than a 6-gate with zealot stalker, and my own experiences on the ladder reflect that as well. I'd gladly test it out again though - if you can give me the basic execution of the build (when to cut probes, how many units to make before warp tech finishes, and if I'm supposed to pull probes off gas), I'll give it a whirl in some custom and ladder games and report back here. The build for 6 gate is really easy.. Just do your FFE, 2 gas etc. and chrono warpgate nonstop. Go up to 36 probes, 4 in gas 32 on minerals and get 6 gates... I tend to make 2 stalkers to accompany the probe for the pylon and then warp in a round of a stalkers first usually at the forward pylon, unless i see speed is done. It's very hard for zerg to have what you describe as you can easily switch between nat and third to attack. Besides if they do have what you describe they probably stomp the mass zealot attack as well.. Good zergs will be having as many roaches as possible anyways and no more then the early lings to stop attacks like this. I just don't get it how you ever think your pure zealot attack is better.. Just the fact warpgates are 50% more efficient making stalkers then zealots should be enough reason to mix it up since you have geysers anyway... Plus pure zealot has a relatively hard counter in pure roach, zealot/stalker has no hard counters like that. The trick of a good rush attack is that you often win (narrowly), not that you win occasionally by a landslide... The ONLY case i think this pure zealot attack might be better is against some weird lings + fast upgrades kind of style like TLO tried in your replays.. Not only is that style bad, it's also very rare now so there is zero reason to your style over the more common 6 gate style. It's just more efficient, versatile and faster.. | ||
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ckolev
51 Posts
All they need to do is sack the 3rd base and try to save as many drones as possible and focus on making roaches. By the time the zealots are done with the 3rd, the roaches will be out, and the 2-pronged effect of the build is gone. Why is the zerg still ahead in this case? Simple. Zerg has better tech, more drones, in 1 minute he can repel the units from the 3rd and even zergs can double expend at this point. And they will still be ahead (they would have 50+ drones, depending on how many they saved frm the 3rd and protoss will be at like 40-42 probes. Why? If the protoss builds 32 probes for the attack and resumes probe production after the 3rd falls, if he chronos probes, he can get 10 in 1 minute max). Why did it work for HuK? Because his main focus was on the 1st expo of the zerg. And he tried to fight zealots with drones in several occasions. he tried to save all his bases - that was impossible. I ran into this build once so far. I failed to scout the gates and did have an overloard over the protoss natural bases gases (silly me :D). I sacked my 3rd and build 1 minute later I pushed the protoss army out of my 3rd with 15+ roaches and a few lings. At that point I double expanded (always what I do after I win a nice fight and i'm equal on bases with the toss/terran enemy). And I went for mutas. Toss has such a late tech that he had 8-9 stalkers VS 10+ mutas. Guess who said that mutas are OP at the end of the game :D:D:D | ||
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Bananasword01
Australia220 Posts
Perhaps what you do gain out o this builds is zergs having to sac an overlord at least once during their 3 base drone orgy and I guess that is certainly a victory for your races. Could be wrong, hope I'm right though cause if this were a dominantt build you can say bye bye to televised zvp. On April 12 2012 21:30 ckolev wrote: Why its good: Catches zergs off guard. If they don't scout it, its pretty hard to stop it. Worst mistake they can make is thinking they can stop it with lings only. But even if they don't see it, they are not going to die to it. All they need to do is sack the 3rd base and try to save as many drones as possible and focus on making roaches. By the time the zealots are done with the 3rd, the roaches will be out, and the 2-pronged effect of the build is gone. Why is the zerg still ahead in this case? Simple. Zerg has better tech, more drones, in 1 minute he can repel the units from the 3rd and even zergs can double expend at this point. And they will still be ahead (they would have 50+ drones, depending on how many they saved frm the 3rd and protoss will be at like 40-42 probes. Why? If the protoss builds 32 probes for the attack and resumes probe production after the 3rd falls, if he chronos probes, he can get 10 in 1 minute max). Why did it work for HuK? Because his main focus was on the 1st expo of the zerg. And he tried to fight zealots with drones in several occasions. he tried to save all his bases - that was impossible. I ran into this build once so far. I failed to scout the gates and did have an overloard over the protoss natural bases gases (silly me :D). I sacked my 3rd and build 1 minute later I pushed the protoss army out of my 3rd with 15+ roaches and a few lings. At that point I double expanded (always what I do after I win a nice fight and i'm equal on bases with the toss/terran enemy). And I went for mutas. Toss has such a late tech that he had 8-9 stalkers VS 10+ mutas. Guess who said that mutas are OP at the end of the game :D:D:D I hope this is true cause it's even better then what I said. Only having to react to an all in by sacing a base is truly better then delaying lair, ling speed and roach speed. | ||
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EndOfLineTv
United States741 Posts
I need to start making banelings lol | ||
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ckolev
51 Posts
As a master NA zerg. This build is the bane of my life! I need to start making banelings lol Zealot splits mate | ||
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ref4
2933 Posts
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Zarent
109 Posts
On April 12 2012 21:30 ckolev wrote: Why its good: Catches zergs off guard. If they don't scout it, its pretty hard to stop it. Worst mistake they can make is thinking they can stop it with lings only. But even if they don't see it, they are not going to die to it. All they need to do is sack the 3rd base and try to save as many drones as possible and focus on making roaches. By the time the zealots are done with the 3rd, the roaches will be out, and the 2-pronged effect of the build is gone. Why is the zerg still ahead in this case? Simple. Zerg has better tech, more drones, in 1 minute he can repel the units from the 3rd and even zergs can double expend at this point. And they will still be ahead (they would have 50+ drones, depending on how many they saved frm the 3rd and protoss will be at like 40-42 probes. Why? If the protoss builds 32 probes for the attack and resumes probe production after the 3rd falls, if he chronos probes, he can get 10 in 1 minute max). Why did it work for HuK? Because his main focus was on the 1st expo of the zerg. And he tried to fight zealots with drones in several occasions. he tried to save all his bases - that was impossible. I ran into this build once so far. I failed to scout the gates and did have an overloard over the protoss natural bases gases (silly me :D). I sacked my 3rd and build 1 minute later I pushed the protoss army out of my 3rd with 15+ roaches and a few lings. At that point I double expanded (always what I do after I win a nice fight and i'm equal on bases with the toss/terran enemy). And I went for mutas. Toss has such a late tech that he had 8-9 stalkers VS 10+ mutas. Guess who said that mutas are OP at the end of the game :D:D:D Why do you assume that Protoss will take so much time to 'be done with the third'? For example, why wouldn't we, as Protoss players, notice that you're pulling drones and bam - start attacking the Nat. You're still going to suffer pretty high damage, -and- your economy will be limited immediately without us having to do anything. True, you're going to be able to concentrate more of your APM to holding one single location, but overall, there's no reason for Protoss players to keep his zealots at your third if we already made it inactive. | ||
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david0925
212 Posts
On April 12 2012 04:48 clazerxsniper wrote: I made this build almost a year ago, i didnt know i'd have to copyright it so people like you didnt steal it I actually came up with the build where people built more than 6 probes. Stop copying me` | ||
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RemarK
United States452 Posts
On April 12 2012 21:30 ckolev wrote: Why its good: Catches zergs off guard. If they don't scout it, its pretty hard to stop it. Worst mistake they can make is thinking they can stop it with lings only. But even if they don't see it, they are not going to die to it. All they need to do is sack the 3rd base and try to save as many drones as possible and focus on making roaches. By the time the zealots are done with the 3rd, the roaches will be out, and the 2-pronged effect of the build is gone. Why is the zerg still ahead in this case? Simple. Zerg has better tech, more drones, in 1 minute he can repel the units from the 3rd and even zergs can double expend at this point. And they will still be ahead (they would have 50+ drones, depending on how many they saved frm the 3rd and protoss will be at like 40-42 probes. Why? If the protoss builds 32 probes for the attack and resumes probe production after the 3rd falls, if he chronos probes, he can get 10 in 1 minute max). Why did it work for HuK? Because his main focus was on the 1st expo of the zerg. And he tried to fight zealots with drones in several occasions. he tried to save all his bases - that was impossible. I ran into this build once so far. I failed to scout the gates and did have an overloard over the protoss natural bases gases (silly me :D). I sacked my 3rd and build 1 minute later I pushed the protoss army out of my 3rd with 15+ roaches and a few lings. At that point I double expanded (always what I do after I win a nice fight and i'm equal on bases with the toss/terran enemy). And I went for mutas. Toss has such a late tech that he had 8-9 stalkers VS 10+ mutas. Guess who said that mutas are OP at the end of the game :D:D:D I think I even addressed this in the guide, but once you've killed a Queen + denied mining at a base, you leave at most 2 zealots there to kill / chase any reinforcements that spawn there. If the Z is unprepared, they'll be denied mining + queen at their 3rd base really quickly, and then you can brute force attack their natural with 20-30 zealots, you can move command zealots into the main to snipe queens and kill drones there, etc, etc If you'd like, I could play a game vs you where you try sacking your 3rd base when you're unprepared for the build and we can see how it plays out. | ||
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DALtyler
Canada10 Posts
On April 10 2012 21:49 TheYellowOne wrote: This build has been around for almost an entire year now known as the DragonSlayer TripleX 10gate. If you were at all creative when coming up with builds you'd come up with a build that hasn't been around for a year before naming it after something else. If you were at all creative when coming up with names you'd come up with a name that isn't ridiculously similar to one of the most known starcraft 2 players in recent memory. | ||
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