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On April 10 2012 18:17 blacklist_member wrote:
What if the zerg goes muta? Doesn't this leave you really vulnerable to mutas?
Naw, 2 base muta rush hits at 10minutes -minimum-
3 base with a lair rush will hit much, much later.
Also for the people wondering about why not stalker/zealot, the whole point is to get -more- units early on to attack in different areas, albeit weaker, and eventually warp in stalkers with the excess mined gas to finish the game. (just like PvZ BW) - Zealots first, goons to end it
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@OP
I've seen several 3 basing Zergs begin a blind 6:15 Roach Warren (+Evo) timing to combat all-ins like this. If the Zerg times gas correctly and has spread Creep, Zerg should be able to fend this off with a nice Roach timing and Roach micro.
To clarify: 6:15 Roach Warren
55 second build time
Roach production @ 7:10
Roach production timing 27 seconds
Roaches arrive at 7:37
Your rush hits right before 8 mins
Therefore a good scout timing would be 6:30 (normal). I think your notes about the Extractor trick (putting Probes back in gas) is pretty smart, but could be foiled by a Zerg diligent enough to count gas. Some Zergs go for a 6 minute Roach Warren, which could dampen your plans.
In all, for auto-piloting Zergs that don't scout, this is pretty awesome.
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a) two things to note, i've been doing 10 gate +1 for a while
(I'm assuming this is what the build is while cutting probes off gas
you can't support 10 gates with only minerals off two base, sadly to say: the build is inefficient
you can only go up to 8 gate +1 w/o gas which is something huk does
b) this is extremely weak to any zerg pressure build as well, so you'll need active scouting (ie leenock's roach ling cancel hatch will kill you instantly)
c) the build is inefficient (eg you can drop down 3 gates faster and then make 6 gates later instead of just 9 at once)
d) if your opponent has roaches you lost. Period. team liquid said that to my 5 gate zealot only build which hits 3 minutes faster. they'll have roaches, you will lose.
e) the build i use is with 4 gases so i can pump out sentries; these counter the roaches. with sentries and 10 gates you can support full production off 10 gates and gain micro advantage with ffs
as a note to "do i lose to mutas" if you can't kill your opponent within 3 minutes you will lose to mutas
this isn't that big a deal though and isn't the hard counter. If your opponent goes up to mutas @ 8:30 anyway you can just steamroll his nat and third and then you'll lose your zealots before you can kill his main, and you'll still have the macro advantage anyway so you'll win later on
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what do you do when the zerg has enough spines to easily deny the push?
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On April 11 2012 07:18 thrawn2112 wrote:
what do you do when the zerg has enough spines to easily deny the push?
you take a third and do a push off three bases, theres no way you can have an economical amount of spines as zerg to fend off a 10 gate. if you're saying "he has too many roaches at this time" then you've probably lost cause he can just push with roaches and win.
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On April 11 2012 07:08 KangaRuthless wrote:
@OP
I've seen several 3 basing Zergs begin a blind 6:15 Roach Warren (+Evo) timing to combat all-ins like this. If the Zerg times gas correctly and has spread Creep, Zerg should be able to fend this off with a nice Roach timing and Roach micro.
To clarify: 6:15 Roach Warren
55 second build time
Roach production @ 7:10
Roach production timing 27 seconds
Roaches arrive at 7:37
Your rush hits right before 8 mins
Therefore a good scout timing would be 6:30 (normal). I think your notes about the Extractor trick (putting Probes back in gas) is pretty smart, but could be foiled by a Zerg diligent enough to count gas. Some Zergs go for a 6 minute Roach Warren, which could dampen your plans.
In all, for auto-piloting Zergs that don't scout, this is pretty awesome.
The Zerg is limited by gas, not roach warren timing usually I believe - the earliest a standard Zerg starts his double extractors is 6:00, some people delay it until 6:30 or later (this build I think is close to auto-win vs the latter). 40 second build time, you should have between 300-400 gas by the time the push hits as Zerg, 100 of which almost always goes to speed.
It seems like roach production and solo spines alone aren't enough to hold it, although maybe I'm just catching everyone I played totally off-guard. But any standard roach and gas timing for a gasless 3rd hatch seems to be very difficult for Z to hold. Best thing for Z to do is 3+ spines at their 3rd and nat while cutting drones and making roaches if they scout a Protoss stop mining gas, I don't think I've ever had a Z hold this off with less than 3 spines per base and normal 6:00 2x extractor.
Edit: Someone asked what happens if the Zerg has made a ton of spines, well, usually I think you just lose - you're a base down, way behind in tech, and have a subpar economy. I don't think taking a 3rd base quickly makes any sense in this situation, contrary to what someone else suggested because you don't even have the probes to saturate 2-bases. Just resume gas mining, chrono out probes, maybe cancel some gates if you have the opportunity to as well, then get some tech going and either take a 3rd behind it or do a 2-base all-in. I don't think your success rate will be very high with this build if they have enough spines to be unbreakable, however, I've never seen enough spines and roaches at both his 3rd and nat that I felt like the push would be utterly ineffectual.
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On April 11 2012 08:21 soLremarK wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2012 07:08 KangaRuthless wrote:
@OP
I've seen several 3 basing Zergs begin a blind 6:15 Roach Warren (+Evo) timing to combat all-ins like this. If the Zerg times gas correctly and has spread Creep, Zerg should be able to fend this off with a nice Roach timing and Roach micro.
To clarify: 6:15 Roach Warren
55 second build time
Roach production @ 7:10
Roach production timing 27 seconds
Roaches arrive at 7:37
Your rush hits right before 8 mins
Therefore a good scout timing would be 6:30 (normal). I think your notes about the Extractor trick (putting Probes back in gas) is pretty smart, but could be foiled by a Zerg diligent enough to count gas. Some Zergs go for a 6 minute Roach Warren, which could dampen your plans.
In all, for auto-piloting Zergs that don't scout, this is pretty awesome. The Zerg is limited by gas, not roach warren timing usually I believe - the earliest a standard Zerg starts his double extractors is 6:00, some people delay it until 6:30 or later (this build I think is close to auto-win vs the latter). 40 second build time, you should have between 300-400 gas by the time the push hits as Zerg, 100 of which almost always goes to speed. It seems like roach production and solo spines alone aren't enough to hold it, although maybe I'm just catching everyone I played totally off-guard. But any standard roach and gas timing for a gasless 3rd hatch seems to be very difficult for Z to hold. Best thing for Z to do is 3+ spines at their 3rd and nat while cutting drones and making roaches if they scout a Protoss stop mining gas, I don't think I've ever had a Z hold this off with less than 3 spines per base and normal 6:00 2x extractor. Edit: Someone asked what happens if the Zerg has made a ton of spines, well, usually I think you just lose - you're a base down, way behind in tech, and have a subpar economy. I don't think taking a 3rd base quickly makes any sense in this situation, contrary to what someone else suggested because you don't even have the probes to saturate 2-bases. Just resume gas mining, chrono out probes, maybe cancel some gates if you have the opportunity to as well, then get some tech going and either take a 3rd behind it or do a 2-base all-in. I don't think your success rate will be very high with this build if they have enough spines to be unbreakable, however, I've never seen enough spines and roaches at both his 3rd and nat that I felt like the push would be utterly ineffectual.
Then it would make more sense for the Zerg to skip Speed entirely and just focus on Roach production. Not sure why a Zerg who scouts this would get Ling speed since Roaches are the necessary unit for survival and eventual counter-aggression/map control.
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Haha this is an incredible build, really powerful ! I still have to hit the right timings, but adding another 2 bases all-in to my PvZ arsenal is rly nice.
Plus it's a good build to use in a BoX to surprise your opponent.
I ran into a Zerg on ladder a little bit earlier, my timings were off by maybe 1, 1m30, and he had an overlord over my 9 gates that I saw when I morphed them into WG. Well I've been able to snipe queens, many lings, many roaches, drones, at some point I was unsure that I was winning, but in the end I had too much stuff haha, seriously I love it. I'm actually not doin' it the correct way, I always send all my zealots in his nat, I fear that if I split them, they might die at one base.
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Good guide. I've been meaning to step up my scouting vProtoss, looks like this will give me the impetus to do so.
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On April 10 2012 17:33 [D]reAm wrote:
No RTS experience -> protoss
always
User was banned for this post.
Oh yeah, so that's why Grubby plays Protoss...
User was warned for this post
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On April 11 2012 08:21 soLremarK wrote:
Edit: Someone asked what happens if the Zerg has made a ton of spines, well, usually I think you just lose - you're a base down, way behind in tech, and have a subpar economy. I don't think taking a 3rd base quickly makes any sense in this situation, contrary to what someone else suggested because you don't even have the probes to saturate 2-bases. Just resume gas mining, chrono out probes, maybe cancel some gates if you have the opportunity to as well, then get some tech going and either take a 3rd behind it or do a 2-base all-in. I don't think your success rate will be very high with this build if they have enough spines to be unbreakable, however, I've never seen enough spines and roaches at both his 3rd and nat that I felt like the push would be utterly ineffectual.
Well, zerg can't have enough spines at both nat and 3rd to deny your push, he'll always lose a base, so it's a 2 base vs 2 base, but yeah, Z is gonna be ahead in tech and eco. But since you'll have alot of minerals if you don't do to many warp-ins, I think you can tech and mass chrono probes to still be in the game. But you'll need to harass alot.
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There are a couple of issues I see right off the bat with this build:
1. It is easily scouted. If zerg sacrifices an overlord and sees a massive gateway count and and no gas being mined, its gonna be pretty obvious what you're up to. Furthermore, high level zerg players always keep overlords at your natural to see if your taking the gases there, upon seeing empty geysers, they will suspect a big zealot play.
2. You've said it yourself, you need to kill off 2 mining bases to be able to transition out of this. What if the zerg simply sacked his 3rd, spined up his nat, made roaches and held the agression? I don't imagine that to be hard at all considering they would probably see it coming and have adequate time to prepare. After doing so, you're immediately left in a horrible situation. You have no tech, no gas for tech, and only 32 probes. There would be no way to go up against a fully saturated 2 base zerg from here.
3. this relies heavily on the ability to get proxy pylons across the map. What if your first stalker was unsuccessful in clearing out scout lings? What if the zerg got ~10 lings for map control? Your entire build would collapse.
The main reason why its working so well right now is because its relative new and many zergs may not realize the proper way to counter this. With time, the effectiveness of this build will go down (remember Lobber's 1 base PvZ?).
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Great guide, I found it helpful. As this build gains popularity perhpas zerg will get the message and quit playing so dam greedily (ie 3 hatch + droning to 60 with 2 speedlings, while starting upgrades..).
I've done a similar build fairly frequently for a while. However, I've recently used the Huk 8 gate more often, where you continue to mine gas.
If the zerg gets fast roaches and spines up he can often stop this, though you should kill his third. The gas income makes it a lot easier to transition out at that point.
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Fond this very helpful! Have won twice already with it! I also haven't refined it yet. Once I do I think this could be really annoying for no gas zergs. Thanks!
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On one hand all these all-in timing attacks by protoss make me sad and ashamed of my race.. On the other though if I hit a bo3 or bo5 scenario for any silly tournament or ladder fool that regames me, having good all-ins is pretty sweet since my standard game is the total opposite 
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As a Zerg that goes 7 min roach warren/evo every game, this build scares the crap out of me
Also, love the name! :D
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What about keep mining gas until you have enough for charge? I've noticed that chargelots are LOTS more effective against roaches than normal zealots. Even if he continues to micro them, iti is far quicker to corner or surround a few of them. If you manage to kill his third but he's still on his second, you are also pretty close to throwing down a third and fourth and going zeal+archon.
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On April 11 2012 13:25 BoondockVeritas wrote:On one hand all these all-in timing attacks by protoss make me sad and ashamed of my race.. On the other though if I hit a bo3 or bo5 scenario for any silly tournament or ladder fool that regames me, having good all-ins is pretty sweet since my standard game is the total opposite
Don't worry, I'm already working on another, more macro-oriented guide for PvZ 
@everyone who is considering the possibility of charge. Keep in mind that it would significantly delay the attack timing, and 99% of what makes this build good is the timing it hits. While a chargelot archon immortal delayed 10 gate with a normal FFE economy could be good, for the context of this specific all-in, charge would not make sense.
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Sounds like a interesting build to do.
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Interesting build, just watched the replays.
Do you ever send 1-2 zealots into the main mineral line (didn't see that in the replays) in addition to the third and natural? Seems like move commanding zealots is pretty easy but that adds another layer of multitask for Z.
I might try changing the build a little bit to hit quicker:
- Gateway before cannon vs standard pool timing, pylon before cannon on larger maps (pretty much everything but close position entombed and metal I think)
- Add gateways at 6:00-6:15 instead of 6:30-7:00, slight probe cut possible. Probably most important modification since constant chronoboost can finish warpgate at ~7:30 even with your building order, and gateways take 65 seconds to make. Noticed your attack timing is usually delayed by gateway timing not warpgate.
- Only add 7 gates instead of 9
You lose the extra 2 zealots from the 1st warp cycle but you have a bit of spare chronoboost at that time anyways so I don't think it's a very big deal. Hitting ~30 seconds faster might be a worthwhile tradeoff.
Don't plan on doing this build much if at all but I think that's what I would try if I did it...
Thanks for the recent guide writing spree ^^
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EPT
