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[G] PvZ Zealot Dance Party Build - Page 4

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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warblob004
Profile Joined January 2011
United States198 Posts
April 10 2012 22:06 GMT
#61
On April 10 2012 18:17 blacklist_member wrote:
What if the zerg goes muta? Doesn't this leave you really vulnerable to mutas?


Naw, 2 base muta rush hits at 10minutes -minimum-
3 base with a lair rush will hit much, much later.

Also for the people wondering about why not stalker/zealot, the whole point is to get -more- units early on to attack in different areas, albeit weaker, and eventually warp in stalkers with the excess mined gas to finish the game. (just like PvZ BW) - Zealots first, goons to end it
"I have not failed; I've simply found 10,000 ways it won't work." ~Thomas Edison
KangaRuthless
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States304 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-04-10 22:17:30
April 10 2012 22:08 GMT
#62
@OP

I've seen several 3 basing Zergs begin a blind 6:15 Roach Warren (+Evo) timing to combat all-ins like this. If the Zerg times gas correctly and has spread Creep, Zerg should be able to fend this off with a nice Roach timing and Roach micro.

To clarify: 6:15 Roach Warren
55 second build time
Roach production @ 7:10
Roach production timing 27 seconds
Roaches arrive at 7:37
Your rush hits right before 8 mins

Therefore a good scout timing would be 6:30 (normal). I think your notes about the Extractor trick (putting Probes back in gas) is pretty smart, but could be foiled by a Zerg diligent enough to count gas. Some Zergs go for a 6 minute Roach Warren, which could dampen your plans.

In all, for auto-piloting Zergs that don't scout, this is pretty awesome.
www.youtube.com/KangaRuthless
Jotunheimr
Profile Joined January 2012
United States36 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-04-10 22:17:16
April 10 2012 22:15 GMT
#63
a) two things to note, i've been doing 10 gate +1 for a while
(I'm assuming this is what the build is while cutting probes off gas
you can't support 10 gates with only minerals off two base, sadly to say: the build is inefficient
you can only go up to 8 gate +1 w/o gas which is something huk does
b) this is extremely weak to any zerg pressure build as well, so you'll need active scouting (ie leenock's roach ling cancel hatch will kill you instantly)
c) the build is inefficient (eg you can drop down 3 gates faster and then make 6 gates later instead of just 9 at once)
d) if your opponent has roaches you lost. Period. team liquid said that to my 5 gate zealot only build which hits 3 minutes faster. they'll have roaches, you will lose.
e) the build i use is with 4 gases so i can pump out sentries; these counter the roaches. with sentries and 10 gates you can support full production off 10 gates and gain micro advantage with ffs

as a note to "do i lose to mutas" if you can't kill your opponent within 3 minutes you will lose to mutas
this isn't that big a deal though and isn't the hard counter. If your opponent goes up to mutas @ 8:30 anyway you can just steamroll his nat and third and then you'll lose your zealots before you can kill his main, and you'll still have the macro advantage anyway so you'll win later on
"誰かが世界はもう終わりだと言ってました。でも私この世界が好きです。この街が好きです。ここにいるみんなが大好きです。あきらめるなんて出来ません。”~Kanata Sorami
thrawn2112
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States6918 Posts
April 10 2012 22:18 GMT
#64
what do you do when the zerg has enough spines to easily deny the push?
"People think they know all these things about other people, and if you ask them why they think they know that, it'd be hard for them to be convincing." ES
Jotunheimr
Profile Joined January 2012
United States36 Posts
April 10 2012 22:20 GMT
#65
On April 11 2012 07:18 thrawn2112 wrote:
what do you do when the zerg has enough spines to easily deny the push?

you take a third and do a push off three bases, theres no way you can have an economical amount of spines as zerg to fend off a 10 gate. if you're saying "he has too many roaches at this time" then you've probably lost cause he can just push with roaches and win.
"誰かが世界はもう終わりだと言ってました。でも私この世界が好きです。この街が好きです。ここにいるみんなが大好きです。あきらめるなんて出来ません。”~Kanata Sorami
RemarK
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States452 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-04-10 23:25:38
April 10 2012 23:21 GMT
#66
On April 11 2012 07:08 KangaRuthless wrote:
@OP

I've seen several 3 basing Zergs begin a blind 6:15 Roach Warren (+Evo) timing to combat all-ins like this. If the Zerg times gas correctly and has spread Creep, Zerg should be able to fend this off with a nice Roach timing and Roach micro.

To clarify: 6:15 Roach Warren
55 second build time
Roach production @ 7:10
Roach production timing 27 seconds
Roaches arrive at 7:37
Your rush hits right before 8 mins

Therefore a good scout timing would be 6:30 (normal). I think your notes about the Extractor trick (putting Probes back in gas) is pretty smart, but could be foiled by a Zerg diligent enough to count gas. Some Zergs go for a 6 minute Roach Warren, which could dampen your plans.

In all, for auto-piloting Zergs that don't scout, this is pretty awesome.


The Zerg is limited by gas, not roach warren timing usually I believe - the earliest a standard Zerg starts his double extractors is 6:00, some people delay it until 6:30 or later (this build I think is close to auto-win vs the latter). 40 second build time, you should have between 300-400 gas by the time the push hits as Zerg, 100 of which almost always goes to speed.

It seems like roach production and solo spines alone aren't enough to hold it, although maybe I'm just catching everyone I played totally off-guard. But any standard roach and gas timing for a gasless 3rd hatch seems to be very difficult for Z to hold. Best thing for Z to do is 3+ spines at their 3rd and nat while cutting drones and making roaches if they scout a Protoss stop mining gas, I don't think I've ever had a Z hold this off with less than 3 spines per base and normal 6:00 2x extractor.

Edit: Someone asked what happens if the Zerg has made a ton of spines, well, usually I think you just lose - you're a base down, way behind in tech, and have a subpar economy. I don't think taking a 3rd base quickly makes any sense in this situation, contrary to what someone else suggested because you don't even have the probes to saturate 2-bases. Just resume gas mining, chrono out probes, maybe cancel some gates if you have the opportunity to as well, then get some tech going and either take a 3rd behind it or do a 2-base all-in. I don't think your success rate will be very high with this build if they have enough spines to be unbreakable, however, I've never seen enough spines and roaches at both his 3rd and nat that I felt like the push would be utterly ineffectual.
I <3 StarCraft.
KangaRuthless
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States304 Posts
April 11 2012 00:13 GMT
#67
On April 11 2012 08:21 soLremarK wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 11 2012 07:08 KangaRuthless wrote:
@OP

I've seen several 3 basing Zergs begin a blind 6:15 Roach Warren (+Evo) timing to combat all-ins like this. If the Zerg times gas correctly and has spread Creep, Zerg should be able to fend this off with a nice Roach timing and Roach micro.

To clarify: 6:15 Roach Warren
55 second build time
Roach production @ 7:10
Roach production timing 27 seconds
Roaches arrive at 7:37
Your rush hits right before 8 mins

Therefore a good scout timing would be 6:30 (normal). I think your notes about the Extractor trick (putting Probes back in gas) is pretty smart, but could be foiled by a Zerg diligent enough to count gas. Some Zergs go for a 6 minute Roach Warren, which could dampen your plans.

In all, for auto-piloting Zergs that don't scout, this is pretty awesome.


The Zerg is limited by gas, not roach warren timing usually I believe - the earliest a standard Zerg starts his double extractors is 6:00, some people delay it until 6:30 or later (this build I think is close to auto-win vs the latter). 40 second build time, you should have between 300-400 gas by the time the push hits as Zerg, 100 of which almost always goes to speed.

It seems like roach production and solo spines alone aren't enough to hold it, although maybe I'm just catching everyone I played totally off-guard. But any standard roach and gas timing for a gasless 3rd hatch seems to be very difficult for Z to hold. Best thing for Z to do is 3+ spines at their 3rd and nat while cutting drones and making roaches if they scout a Protoss stop mining gas, I don't think I've ever had a Z hold this off with less than 3 spines per base and normal 6:00 2x extractor.

Edit: Someone asked what happens if the Zerg has made a ton of spines, well, usually I think you just lose - you're a base down, way behind in tech, and have a subpar economy. I don't think taking a 3rd base quickly makes any sense in this situation, contrary to what someone else suggested because you don't even have the probes to saturate 2-bases. Just resume gas mining, chrono out probes, maybe cancel some gates if you have the opportunity to as well, then get some tech going and either take a 3rd behind it or do a 2-base all-in. I don't think your success rate will be very high with this build if they have enough spines to be unbreakable, however, I've never seen enough spines and roaches at both his 3rd and nat that I felt like the push would be utterly ineffectual.


Then it would make more sense for the Zerg to skip Speed entirely and just focus on Roach production. Not sure why a Zerg who scouts this would get Ling speed since Roaches are the necessary unit for survival and eventual counter-aggression/map control.
www.youtube.com/KangaRuthless
Sakray
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
France2198 Posts
April 11 2012 00:24 GMT
#68
Haha this is an incredible build, really powerful ! I still have to hit the right timings, but adding another 2 bases all-in to my PvZ arsenal is rly nice.
Plus it's a good build to use in a BoX to surprise your opponent.

I ran into a Zerg on ladder a little bit earlier, my timings were off by maybe 1, 1m30, and he had an overlord over my 9 gates that I saw when I morphed them into WG. Well I've been able to snipe queens, many lings, many roaches, drones, at some point I was unsure that I was winning, but in the end I had too much stuff haha, seriously I love it. I'm actually not doin' it the correct way, I always send all my zealots in his nat, I fear that if I split them, they might die at one base.
BoxingKangaroo
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
Japan955 Posts
April 11 2012 00:30 GMT
#69
Good guide. I've been meaning to step up my scouting vProtoss, looks like this will give me the impetus to do so.
madhyene
Profile Joined March 2011
France43 Posts
April 11 2012 00:35 GMT
#70
On April 10 2012 17:33 [D]reAm wrote:
No RTS experience -> protoss

always

User was banned for this post.


Oh yeah, so that's why Grubby plays Protoss...

User was warned for this post
Sakray
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
France2198 Posts
April 11 2012 00:43 GMT
#71
On April 11 2012 08:21 soLremarK wrote:
Edit: Someone asked what happens if the Zerg has made a ton of spines, well, usually I think you just lose - you're a base down, way behind in tech, and have a subpar economy. I don't think taking a 3rd base quickly makes any sense in this situation, contrary to what someone else suggested because you don't even have the probes to saturate 2-bases. Just resume gas mining, chrono out probes, maybe cancel some gates if you have the opportunity to as well, then get some tech going and either take a 3rd behind it or do a 2-base all-in. I don't think your success rate will be very high with this build if they have enough spines to be unbreakable, however, I've never seen enough spines and roaches at both his 3rd and nat that I felt like the push would be utterly ineffectual.


Well, zerg can't have enough spines at both nat and 3rd to deny your push, he'll always lose a base, so it's a 2 base vs 2 base, but yeah, Z is gonna be ahead in tech and eco. But since you'll have alot of minerals if you don't do to many warp-ins, I think you can tech and mass chrono probes to still be in the game. But you'll need to harass alot.
Sawowner
Profile Joined December 2011
Canada2 Posts
April 11 2012 02:50 GMT
#72
There are a couple of issues I see right off the bat with this build:

1. It is easily scouted. If zerg sacrifices an overlord and sees a massive gateway count and and no gas being mined, its gonna be pretty obvious what you're up to. Furthermore, high level zerg players always keep overlords at your natural to see if your taking the gases there, upon seeing empty geysers, they will suspect a big zealot play.

2. You've said it yourself, you need to kill off 2 mining bases to be able to transition out of this. What if the zerg simply sacked his 3rd, spined up his nat, made roaches and held the agression? I don't imagine that to be hard at all considering they would probably see it coming and have adequate time to prepare. After doing so, you're immediately left in a horrible situation. You have no tech, no gas for tech, and only 32 probes. There would be no way to go up against a fully saturated 2 base zerg from here.

3. this relies heavily on the ability to get proxy pylons across the map. What if your first stalker was unsuccessful in clearing out scout lings? What if the zerg got ~10 lings for map control? Your entire build would collapse.

The main reason why its working so well right now is because its relative new and many zergs may not realize the proper way to counter this. With time, the effectiveness of this build will go down (remember Lobber's 1 base PvZ?).
MrFrenchy
Profile Joined December 2011
Canada37 Posts
April 11 2012 03:13 GMT
#73
Great guide, I found it helpful. As this build gains popularity perhpas zerg will get the message and quit playing so dam greedily (ie 3 hatch + droning to 60 with 2 speedlings, while starting upgrades..).

I've done a similar build fairly frequently for a while. However, I've recently used the Huk 8 gate more often, where you continue to mine gas.

If the zerg gets fast roaches and spines up he can often stop this, though you should kill his third. The gas income makes it a lot easier to transition out at that point.
McKTenor13
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States1383 Posts
April 11 2012 04:03 GMT
#74
Fond this very helpful! Have won twice already with it! I also haven't refined it yet. Once I do I think this could be really annoying for no gas zergs. Thanks!
If you can chill. chill. - Liquid'Tyler
BoondockVeritas
Profile Joined August 2010
United States191 Posts
April 11 2012 04:25 GMT
#75
On one hand all these all-in timing attacks by protoss make me sad and ashamed of my race.. On the other though if I hit a bo3 or bo5 scenario for any silly tournament or ladder fool that regames me, having good all-ins is pretty sweet since my standard game is the total opposite
NA server Veritas.414, KR server Bullet.382. 지지요!
ipwntbarney
Profile Joined September 2011
United States141 Posts
April 11 2012 04:30 GMT
#76
As a Zerg that goes 7 min roach warren/evo every game, this build scares the crap out of me

Also, love the name! :D
GoldenH
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
1115 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-04-11 04:37:08
April 11 2012 04:36 GMT
#77
What about keep mining gas until you have enough for charge? I've noticed that chargelots are LOTS more effective against roaches than normal zealots. Even if he continues to micro them, iti is far quicker to corner or surround a few of them. If you manage to kill his third but he's still on his second, you are also pretty close to throwing down a third and fourth and going zeal+archon.
"(Dudes are) not going to say "Buy this game — I cried at the end". (...) I suppose the secret is to find a game that makes you shoot eight million fuckin' dudes and then cry about how awesome it is to shoot eight million fuckin' dudes." - Tim Rogers
RemarK
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States452 Posts
April 11 2012 06:12 GMT
#78
On April 11 2012 13:25 BoondockVeritas wrote:
On one hand all these all-in timing attacks by protoss make me sad and ashamed of my race.. On the other though if I hit a bo3 or bo5 scenario for any silly tournament or ladder fool that regames me, having good all-ins is pretty sweet since my standard game is the total opposite


Don't worry, I'm already working on another, more macro-oriented guide for PvZ

@everyone who is considering the possibility of charge. Keep in mind that it would significantly delay the attack timing, and 99% of what makes this build good is the timing it hits. While a chargelot archon immortal delayed 10 gate with a normal FFE economy could be good, for the context of this specific all-in, charge would not make sense.
I <3 StarCraft.
Amornthep
Profile Blog Joined September 2011
Singapore2605 Posts
April 11 2012 06:46 GMT
#79
Sounds like a interesting build to do.
whistle
Profile Joined April 2010
United States141 Posts
April 11 2012 06:54 GMT
#80
Interesting build, just watched the replays.

Do you ever send 1-2 zealots into the main mineral line (didn't see that in the replays) in addition to the third and natural? Seems like move commanding zealots is pretty easy but that adds another layer of multitask for Z.

I might try changing the build a little bit to hit quicker:
- Gateway before cannon vs standard pool timing, pylon before cannon on larger maps (pretty much everything but close position entombed and metal I think)
- Add gateways at 6:00-6:15 instead of 6:30-7:00, slight probe cut possible. Probably most important modification since constant chronoboost can finish warpgate at ~7:30 even with your building order, and gateways take 65 seconds to make. Noticed your attack timing is usually delayed by gateway timing not warpgate.
- Only add 7 gates instead of 9

You lose the extra 2 zealots from the 1st warp cycle but you have a bit of spare chronoboost at that time anyways so I don't think it's a very big deal. Hitting ~30 seconds faster might be a worthwhile tradeoff.

Don't plan on doing this build much if at all but I think that's what I would try if I did it...

Thanks for the recent guide writing spree ^^
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