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[G] PvZ Zealot Dance Party Build

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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RemarK
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States452 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-04-10 19:53:03
April 10 2012 05:33 GMT
#1
Introduction:
Hello all,

I’m RemarK, top masters Protoss on the NA server, here with another PvZ guide (another all-in, by the way). I promise I’ll start sharing more macro-oriented guides as well soon – I’m still relatively new to the whole guides area of SC2, so for now I’m just sticking to easier to write guides (i.e. all-ins!). This one is a build I invented myself, inspired by some of HuK’s gameplay, designed to punish the current ZvP metagame of 3 gasless hatcheries with a mass zealot attack before the 8:00 mark. For now, I’m calling this the Zealot Dance Party. If you do come up with a name I like more, please share and I’ll update this post with your improved name and credit you obviously! :D

You might ask, “RemarK, why is it called the Zealot Dance Party?”

[image loading]
Pictured: That’s why.


Background:
+ Show Spoiler +
This build is something I came up with after doing a lot of thinking about the current PvZ metagame of FFE vs gasless 3rd into 12-minute roach-ling max. While watching the MLG Winter Arena, I saw HuK do a very strange 9-gate attack vs Liquid’Ret, in the 3rd game of their series. You can view this game, if you are so inclined, here:

http://tv.majorleaguegaming.com/videos/82742-winter-arena-wr3-huk-vs-ret-g3

Anyways, the crux of HuK’s strategy with this 9-gate attack was warping in TONS of zealots everywhere and preventing the roaches from ever hitting a critical mass. At first I was expecting such a simple strategy to fall flat on its face – roach ling usually is pretty cost-effective at dealing with gateway all-ins, right? To my surprise, however, Ret got overrun as HuK warped in zealots everywhere – the standard gas + roach warren timings for Zerg didn’t seem adequate at defending such insane, multi-pronged aggression. Important to note also is that HuK focused on hitting hard and fast – he used his first warp-ins to take down as many queens + drones mining gas as possible. This subtle move wound up crippling Ret’s production, and Ret was left producing very small clumps of roaches + lings that were quickly overrun. As his roach numbers dwindled due to lacking gas and larva for continuous production, HuK’s zealot numbers continued growing and growing. A minute or two later, Ret was only able to afford small clumps of lings at a time and shortly afterwards was forced to GG out when those got cleaned up by the zealots with ease.

Anyways, one thing I noticed at the time was that HuK’s resource allocation didn’t seem entirely optimal for this attack – specifically, he mined more gas than he was able to spend. 9 gates and an early probe production cut means that you’re essentially all-in – so why even bother mining gas at all? What if we took the core idea of this build but boiled it down to its most basic element and focused on hitting hard, hitting fast, and hitting efficiently in order to punish the current metagame of Zerg players taking a gasless 3rd hatch in response to an FFE?

The resulting build I came up with consists of mining only 200 gas (100 for the +1 attack upgrade, 50 for warp tech, and 50 for a stalker), hits before the 8 minute mark, and has around an 80%-90% winrate vs GM and professional players on the NA ladder (I know it’s a cliché to include winrates in such a guide, but I wanted to emphasize that the build is rather successful versus relatively skilled players), even GM’s who I had already done the build to.


Infrastructure:

+ Show Spoiler +
The infrastructure for this guide is very simple – you’ll be FFe’ing into a very strong all-in, producing off of 10 gates starting between the 7:40-8:00 mark (depending on how well the build is being executed – even I get a decent amount of variance in my games, the biggest factors for how fast the build hits are how quickly you get your gateways down and how many times you chronoboost warp tech once you are done making probes and chronoboosting your stalker out). You’ll be warping in zealots exclusively of course. As with my last build, saturation is very important – you need to be sure you wind up with 16 probes per mineral field at each of your bases. I recommend hitting 16 probes in your main base before rallying your main nexus to your natural expansion – this has always seemed to provide the smoothest income and most natural way to manage your economy to me.If saturation is a relatively new concept to you, please feel free to check out the paragraphs on saturation in the “Infrastructure” section of my previous guide:

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=325014


The Build:

+ Show Spoiler +
Like most PvZ builds, we start off with a standard forge fast expansion (FFE). There’s a few stylistic differences in how people FFE, so don’t feel like you have to use my version of the build – it’s just the version I’m most comfortable with / think is best right now.

9 pylon (@ low-ground) – Scout with the probe that builds this pylon.

13/14 forge (chronoboost probes twice, then build forge) – If it’s a 4-player map AND your first scout hasn’t figured out where the Zerg lives, you need to scout with this probe also in case he’s 6 or 7 pooling.

@25 Nexus Energy: Chronoboost probes again (this will be your 3rd chronoboost on probes)

17 Nexus (you should’ve scouted the Zerg, if he’s early pooling [anything faster than an 11 pool] you might need to either drop a pylon + cannon in your main mineral line or rush to complete the wall before building the nexus, thus abandoning this build. Additionally, if he is taking a gas, I probably wouldn’t recommend this build – the goal of this build is to punish gasless Zerg, so it wouldn’t make sense to do this build in that scenario)

17 Cannon

17 Gateway

17 Pylon (Note: the cannon + gateway + pylon should either complete your sim city and leave you with a 1-hex hole that can be plugged by a probe or zealot, or on maps with wide-ramps like Antiga set you up to complete your sim city when you add the cyber core)

*Build a probe*

18 2x Assimilator (I like to build these with the probe that made the 17 pylon, and then use my scouting probe to plug the wall when he gets home)

*Pylon finishes, your supply should be 18/26 now*

Chronoboost probes (constant chronoboost, constant probe production!), put workers on gas when the assimilators finish, etc

*Nexus finishes, Gateway finishes*

Build your cyber core

@100 gas – Start +1 ground attack upgrade at forge

@~70 gas. It’s time to start pulling probes off gas – the easiest way to do this is just bounce between geyseys, select 1-2 probes at a time, and move command them to the side of your nexus away from your mineral field. Once you have all 6 out, make them deposit any gas they’re still holding and transfer them to your natural expansion – you should have 16 probes in your main mineral line already.

Make sure to rally both nexus to your natural mineral fields, and make sure to count your probes so you stop at 16 probes per base (32 total).

@Cybernetics core completion: start warpgate research, and chronoboost out a stalker!
After starting the stalker, build a pylon someplace in your main – your supply should be approaching 36/36 (you want to have 32 probes mining, 16 per base, your stalker, and one or two probes to build proxies with – it’s ok to be off on your saturation with an extra probe or two, just make sure you aren’t undersaturated), this pylon is not to build supply but for making a gateway flower, so make sure you build it someplace where the entire pylon radius can be utilized.

[image loading]

Pictured: Gateway flower (also, one hell of an Artosis pylon)

This is the part where the build gets a little bit tricky – your stalker pops out, you need to send it on the map to do two things – first, scare off Zerglings from the watchtower and clear a path for your probe and second, confirm that the Zerg is not doing a roach-ling all-in. If your stalker scouts roach-ling all-in, just drop a ton of cannons, make a tight wall-off, and with a little bit of crisis control and microing your macro, you should be able to hold. I would probably resume gas mining as soon as I saw no 3rd and no creep spread (creep spread = he is using his queen energy on things besides inject, or built an extra queen probably not an all-in coming your way in either of those cases) and just play a macro game or go for a more standard 2-base timing to follow-up a failed roach-ling.

While that’s going on and you’re taking map control with your stalker, you want to be adding gateways like a mad man – you’re going up to 10 gateways total, and usually I build the extra 9 gateways all around that one pylon (it’s optional to spread the gates around, but since both of your first two pylons are on the low-ground by your wall, there’s not always a ton of space there. If you do split the gates and have space, I’d probably build 3 in the main and the rest on the low-ground). It’s very important to add gateways ASAP when you have the money – this is one of the biggest factors towards hitting on time, and can be the difference between awkwardly sitting at a proxy pylon waiting for gates to finish or having 10 zealots warping in as the Zerg’s brain explodes.

You’re going to want to build 2-5 proxy pylons, depending on the map, and how many different angles of attack are available to you. Generally, I find 3 to be totally sufficient on most maps (TDA is a bit of a special case, you might want to build 4 on TDA, 2 by the Zerg’s third and 2 by his natural). With these pylons, you want to spread them out far enough that you can warp zealots close to his natural, close to his 3rd, and in between the two. Here’s a sample pylon set-up on Shakuras Plateau:

[image loading]
Pictured: Top pylon close to his natural, middle pylon between his 3rd and nat…

[image loading]
Pictured: …and bottom pylon very close to his 3rd.

Your warp tech should be 80-90% done as you start planting down the proxy pylons – as soon as warp tech finishes, morph your gates and start warping in zealots. I recommend splitting your first group of zealots about 50-50 (4-5 to his nat, 5-6 to his 3rd). If he has roaches and spines already in place at one base, pull those zealots back and send them to the other base to force the roaches away from that spine. You can send a new hit squad of zealots to the old, previously well-defended base with your next warp cycle.

Keep your zealots spread out with each subsequent warp cycle until you either kill all the drones + queens + static defense at a base – then, you can just leave a few zealots there to clean up any spawning units from that hatch and bring the rest to the next target. This build is the PvZ equivalent of a groin punch – you’re making stupid amounts of zealots, and putting them everywhere the Zerg does not want them to be. Make sure your zealots don’t get kited endless by a pack of roaches – let’s say we have 12 zealots chasing 8 roaches in a circle. That’s no good – they’ll die inefficiently and we’re not putting the maximum amount of pressure on the Zerg that we could. Instead, move command 4 of those zealots to the nearest mineral line. Then, the Zerg has to keep microing his roaches while also keeping his drones alive against the zealots. 4 zealots work through a field of drones incredibly fast, and even if he is forced to transfer, your work is done – he’s not mining from that field and is losing a lot of income. Also, try and focus down any drones mining gas with harassing zealots – if you can force the Zerg to not make roaches because he has no gas, you’ve already won the game.

Lastly, remember, this is an all-in: don’t make probes back home, do use extra chronoboost on your warp-gates between cycles, and don’t expect to transition out of this build if it fails. Even if you kill his 3rd hatch, if he can defend his natural and main while keeping 40~ drones or more, he’s way, way ahead of you. In order to even consider transitioning, you’d have to kill two of his mining bases and probably 30-40 drones. If at that point he somehow gets enough roaches to stabilize, just go home, drop a few cannons, resume gas mining + probe production, and go for a any standard 2-base all-in as a follow-up timing attack. He should be far enough behind from losing so many workers and hatches that he won’t be able to hold it.

Good luck and have fun!


Notes about execution:
+ Show Spoiler +

Queen sniping: Queens are the most important units to kill early on, without inject larva, Zerg’s production becomes laughably stunted. Snipe them whenever you get the chance, but don’t ever lose excessive zealots trying to chase down a Queen. Zealots are better used chasing roaches than Queens because then the Zerg has to constantly stutter-step in order to keep the roaches alive, rather than queuing up move commands for the Queen.

[image loading]
Pictured: The importance of sniping Queens

Tricking the Zerg: At higher levels, tricking the Zerg can be more important than just cleanly executing the build. I try to always be aware of where overlords could be coming from, scout for their positions around the corners of my base with a probe, and if necessary, use the stalker to deny scouting. Additionally, if an overlord is on a flight path towards your main once you’ve pulled off gas, you can temporarily resume mining gas in order to prevent him from seeing that you weren’t mining gas. A truly gosu Zerg will count on the assimilator and see how much gas you’ve mined, but I don’t think 99.999% of the players on NA ladder, even at the highest level, have that kind of awareness and intelligence. Don’t worry about stuff like this until you can execute the build decently well, are comfortable with the timings and ideas behind it, and have a good feel for the Zealot micro involved.


Replays:

+ Show Spoiler +
vs vVvToXSiK (Top masters): http://drop.sc/143526

vs wzp (GM): http://drop.sc/157169

vs LaGTTPhierz (Former GM): http://drop.sc/157170

vs NMxhendralsk (GM): http://drop.sc/157171

vs xLsOdiN (GM – he does a hatch-block forcing a slightly non-standard opening out of me, but it transitions fine into the normal all-in, we played twice in a row and I did this build both times and won both times – even though he built 4 spinecrawlers and units pre-emptively this game without taking a 3rd): http://drop.sc/157173

vs LiquidTLO: http://drop.sc/157175:

vs ClashZaiZai (GM, one of the few players who held it off – he scouted me not mining gas and reacted by building lots of spines, I think I could have broke him if I executed and micro’d better; I lost many zealots for free unfortunately): http://drop.sc/157176


Further discussion:

+ Show Spoiler +
This build is still very young and has plenty of potential for being refined. As a full-time college student, I don't have as much time as I'd like to test things out rigorously, so here's a few things I've been considering and I invite anyone interested to test these out and share their experiences in this thread:

-Instead of taking 2 assimilators, just take 1! This might be a more logical thing to do, given how little gas we're mining. Downside is it's slightly less subtle than building both assimilators and pulling probes off of them.

-In line with the above, try taking only 1-gas but don't pull probes off of it - would the potential of a sentry or stalker with your warp cycles be worth the investment? What would be more useful, an early sentry for guardian shield later or warping in a few stalkers with your first warp cycle and microing them throughout the battle?

-Is 10 gates even the optimal number? I've had games where I used 12 gates and it still worked beautifully. I genuinely have no clue what the best number is, maybe 12 is even better because it would make your first two warp-ins exceptionally strong - however, the obvious drawback is you'll run out of steam faster and you are investing in even more production that you won't be able to sustain for very long?

-That's all I have for now, but if you guys come up with any questions or points you'd like me to include, I'd be happy to add it up here! Just send me a PM and I'll update this post.


About Me:
+ Show Spoiler +
I’m RemarK.406 on the NA server, a top masters Protoss who comes from a FPS background (Halo specifically) with no RTS experience prior to SC2. Feel free to message me on TL (soLremarK), reddit (mmkramer), or battle.net with any feedback or thoughts about my guides. I also stream tournament and ladder games at http://www.twitch.tv/tsremark , often with commentary as well. Lastly, I have also just today released a replay pack consisting of ~170 ladder and tournament games versus GM players, professionals, and other top masters players (there’s also a sub-folder containing 15 of the best games). You can grab the replay pack here:

http://drop.sc/packs/829

Thank you for reading and I hope this guide was helpful!


I <3 StarCraft.
Yezman
Profile Joined January 2011
8 Posts
April 10 2012 06:31 GMT
#2
Many thanks for these builds! Even as a GM tos, I started using your 2 base immortal timing and my PvZ win rate is flawless now. I can't wait to try this on the ladder. Once I do I will post feedback.

You seem to like all ins, same here. Have any favorites vs terran? I like my form of the immortal all in, but its getting iffy vs pure marine builds ==

chauder
Profile Joined October 2010
United States4 Posts
April 10 2012 06:34 GMT
#3
nice looks really simple I'll try it out
iKill
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
Denmark861 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-04-10 06:55:36
April 10 2012 06:49 GMT
#4
Interesting - I'm Z, so this is bad news to me if it interferes with my 4-minute dronegasm

Can you talk a little bit about counters, and what the build fails to? One of the players in your replays held it off with spines - can you elaborate a bit on that and talk about the optimal way to deal with it?

I mean, obviously I'd want to know as a zerg, but I'm sure some toss users of the build will want to know what kills it as well.
thepuppyassassin: "My god... the deathball's grown wings!"
Xana
Profile Joined March 2011
Denmark128 Posts
April 10 2012 06:49 GMT
#5
Assuming that the Zerg is not braindead, wouldn't it be terribly easy to delay lingspeed+lair to get out 8 roaches?
Since your Stalker is almost demanded on the field to get the watchtowers, isn't a standard overlord scout going to see absolutely everything?

The all in is definitively powerful, especially if spread out, but I don't see Zergs being unable to respond to this.
He who walks arrives.
Josh_rakoons
Profile Joined December 2011
United Kingdom1158 Posts
April 10 2012 07:05 GMT
#6
Do you think delaying the all in for the sake of upgrading charge would be better? for example, skip the +1 and go for an immediate twilight council.
RandomRice
Profile Joined January 2011
United States303 Posts
April 10 2012 07:25 GMT
#7
I've been doing this build a few months ago when I saw vilestate do it on his stream. It's extremely potent but it can be shut down hard if it gets scouted by ovie. With only 1 stalker it's really hard to deny scouting from a good Zerg, but most zergs don't scout properly and i can kill zergs a lot better than me with this build =)
Arcanefrost
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Belgium1257 Posts
April 10 2012 07:32 GMT
#8
My teammate does this all the time and he mines 300 extra gas for stalker warpin, any experienc on which variant is better?
Valor is a poor substitute for numbers.
ipwntbarney
Profile Joined September 2011
United States141 Posts
April 10 2012 07:43 GMT
#9
On April 10 2012 16:05 Josh_rakoons wrote:
Do you think delaying the all in for the sake of upgrading charge would be better? for example, skip the +1 and go for an immediate twilight council.

Twilight Council + Charge would be at least another 2 minutes (not sure exact times, but that number felt good getting pulled out of my ass). If you delay the attack that long , then you would be letting 3-base production hit full swing, and you would get overrun by mass speed roaches. Not to mention that without +1, lings would be relatively cost efficient against spread out zealots.
MuR
Profile Joined December 2011
United States25 Posts
April 10 2012 07:51 GMT
#10
Lol I just tried this on ladder - it was surprisingly effective... the quickest, easiest win in a pvz I've had in a long time. I applaud this build, and its creator(s).

@Josh_rakoons,

I'm not sure, but I think the twilight council would take more time- it's so easy just to grab the weapons upgrade since the forge is already there. Not to mention- what would charge really add to the attack? The primary threat at this point is speedlings- plus one attack makes your zealots supremely effective against them.

So really, I guess I just don't know if the added cost and time would be worth the questionable benefit.
drakhl
Profile Joined August 2010
17 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-04-10 07:53:40
April 10 2012 07:52 GMT
#11
I don't have the ability to watch the replays atm, but what time on the game clock does your first warp in hit? I'd imagine its somewhere around 8:10 or so.

I like the idea of punishing the zerg, but I feel the all-in may be a little too severe. I want to know your thoughts on why you choose this build over a huk 8 gate? When I play the 8 gate I usually have 2 probes in each gas until the gates go down, then go up to 3 on each geyser.

Usually can get my first warp-in cycle between 8:30-8:40, and that is a much stronger attack imo, since its a combination of zealots and stalkers, and you have the options to follow up those warp ins with sentries if you wish. I suppose the question is that extra tech and unit composition worth the extra time? It seems to me like the 8 gate would be significantly stronger against the typical 7-8 roaches the zerg will be building around the 8 minute mark.

Edit: Also the 8 gate gives you a much better chance to transition if your attack fails. You don't need to do nearly as much damage.
gautamvirk86
Profile Joined August 2010
India55 Posts
April 10 2012 08:00 GMT
#12
If TangSC came out with an All-in people start hating on him but if a Toss comes up with an all in, he is welcomed with open arms.

Question: Where are you planning to hide the 10 Warpgates? Mostly all zergs now keep atleast 2 ovies around toss's base and scout at the same time.
"Hopefully you're not the real TLO so it's not casted" - SpecialK
Eifer
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States138 Posts
April 10 2012 08:10 GMT
#13
I've been doing a streamlined version via nexus first with a 7:20 warpin off 7gates with +1 finishing around 7:50. The extra time is crucial. It results in ridiculously easy wins against GM zergs up to about rank 20 when they don't know what's about to hit them. Several top 20 GM zergs were able to hold off (my variant of) this build.
For zergs, don't worry it's a pretty easy build to counter if scouted.
The tell: Constant chrono on the core & 3:15-3:30 gate.
The response: Get a 6:30 warren, and be very active with lings to deny probes on the map. Forcing an extra probe travel time + pylon construction time gives you ~25-45 extra seconds to consolidate roaches that you have been producing for longer than he expects. He cannot back out of the 7gate, 3gas, +1 version and there is absolutely no way he can back out of the variant in the OP. This means if you win the battle, you win the game.
Kite the zealots with mass roach on creep. Run up next to stalkers after the zealots are dead so they cannot retreat.
If you have to fight in several locations, pull hurt roaches back in the smaller engagements so the zealots that he has on auto pilot mindlessly target new ones.
It's a good protoss build for a best of X series and thus has a place on the ladder, but after it becomes more widely known (darn you remark) it will, like the Lobber build, no longer be viable at high levels of play.
Cyro
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
United Kingdom20285 Posts
April 10 2012 08:12 GMT
#14
This build, i like it, ANOTHER

In all seriousness though, it seems very powerful, cant wait to try quite a few times on poor zergs
"oh my god my overclock... I got a single WHEA error on the 23rd hour, 9 minutes" -Belial88
InfusedTT.DaZe
Profile Joined August 2010
Romania693 Posts
April 10 2012 08:21 GMT
#15
seems like a good build indeed but only making zealots seems like a 1 hit thing, maybe mine some gas with 1 or 2 probes on both assimilators for some later stalkers>?
"Echoes of past events nudge the tiller on my present course, I await its reflection in the future"
[D]reAm
Profile Joined April 2012
3 Posts
April 10 2012 08:33 GMT
#16
No RTS experience -> protoss

always

User was banned for this post.
Tazerenix
Profile Joined December 2010
Australia340 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-04-10 08:52:51
April 10 2012 08:50 GMT
#17
On April 10 2012 15:31 Yezman wrote:
Many thanks for these builds! Even as a GM tos, I started using your 2 base immortal timing and my PvZ win rate is flawless now. I can't wait to try this on the ladder. Once I do I will post feedback.

You seem to like all ins, same here. Have any favorites vs terran? I like my form of the immortal all in, but its getting iffy vs pure marine builds ==


If you are looking for a good allin against terran marine builds, look at the 1 gate fe into 6 gate pressure.
The execution is fairly simple, just execute a standard MC style 1 gate fe (or any fast expand build you like really) and if you scout a gasless expand, don't drop the robo. Go up to two gas in your main with 16 on minerals and rally your nexii to your natural. At around 45-50 supply drop three extra gates, somewhere hidden is best, or split them up (for example on Antiga I like to put them at my third) and as you saturate your natural minerals with 16 probes, pressure at around 9 minutes with a ton of zealot sentry stalker, If you hit your timings and don't get slowed down by early aggression, it can be absolutely deadly. Against gasless terrans, i'd say I have about an 80% win rate with it.

I might even write a guide on it.

On Topic:

I always feel like these zealot attacks are thwarted so easily by zerg. When ever I try go for a 4-6 gate +1 zealot timing, the zerg has his roaches there and waiting, right at 8 minutes as I warp in, even with a third base, the problem I see is if a zerg is active with denying pylons and delays the pressure by even a small amount of time, they will reach a mass of roaches that can defeat waves easily, and just power up and kill you. Will definitely have to try this variation of the zealot pressure though.
Ventor
Profile Joined February 2011
United States336 Posts
April 10 2012 08:55 GMT
#18
On April 10 2012 17:33 [D]reAm wrote:
No RTS experience -> protoss

always


No creativity or open mind -> zerg

always

User was warned for this post
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blacklist_member
Profile Joined January 2011
Australia318 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-04-10 09:18:24
April 10 2012 09:17 GMT
#19
What if the zerg goes muta? Doesn't this leave you really vulnerable to mutas?
MC and MKP fighting ^^
Sareth
Profile Joined June 2011
Germany1008 Posts
April 10 2012 09:23 GMT
#20
On April 10 2012 18:17 blacklist_member wrote:
What if the zerg goes muta? Doesn't this leave you really vulnerable to mutas?

This build hits around 8 Minutes, even if the Zerg rushes for Mutas he should not have them ready.
And then it still takes mutas a good time to kill zealots. You should have time to put guys back in gas and mix in Stalkers to finish him off.
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