EPTi'll definitely try this out on ladder
[G] PvZ Zealot Dance Party Build - Page 6
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snively
United States1159 Posts
i'll definitely try this out on ladder | ||
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Xujhan
Canada65 Posts
Edit: Reps, thus it happened. | ||
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retardstrong
United States46 Posts
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ckolev
51 Posts
On April 13 2012 02:32 Zarent wrote: Why do you assume that Protoss will take so much time to 'be done with the third'? For example, why wouldn't we, as Protoss players, notice that you're pulling drones and bam - start attacking the Nat. You're still going to suffer pretty high damage, -and- your economy will be limited immediately without us having to do anything. True, you're going to be able to concentrate more of your APM to holding one single location, but overall, there's no reason for Protoss players to keep his zealots at your third if we already made it inactive. You need like 20-25 sec. to make a few additional roaches. Your idea assumes that the zerg makes no units during the entire time of the attack. That's kind of dumb. Roaches do not die to zealots, because of creep and kitting. The moment he sees proxy pylons, he will start building roaches. As I said I already ran into this build on the ladder, before even reading about it and I had no problems doing the described by me above. On April 13 2012 04:56 soLremarK wrote: I think I even addressed this in the guide, but once you've killed a Queen + denied mining at a base, you leave at most 2 zealots there to kill / chase any reinforcements that spawn there. If the Z is unprepared, they'll be denied mining + queen at their 3rd base really quickly, and then you can brute force attack their natural with 20-30 zealots, you can move command zealots into the main to snipe queens and kill drones there, etc, etc If you'd like, I could play a game vs you where you try sacking your 3rd base when you're unprepared for the build and we can see how it plays out. 1st: If you leave 2 zealots and 3 roaches spawn, that base is safe. You need to send more zealots, which will weaken the attack on the nat. 2nd: Again, like so many you are assuming that you roaches are going to fight the zealots head on. ROACHES KITE!!!!! The idea of the build is to attack 2 locations at the same time. By forcing the protoss to attack one location, those 20-30 zealots will not be able to kill more than the queens. At that point - so what? You have 25-30 roaches and he protoss has no gas, no tech. Any zealots you make from that point are going to be destroyed. You need 3 warp-in cycles to have more zealots than there are roaches now. 3 Warp-in cycles are over 1:30 minutes. You say chrono - I say you have 9 gates, how many chrono can you have at that point? 8 max, cuz you are on 2 bases. You can reduce the warp-in time by 15 seconds. I still have more roaches than the protoss. This build is bad. Works once every 50 games (maybe even not as often). | ||
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Xujhan
Canada65 Posts
On April 13 2012 16:00 ckolev wrote:You need like 20-25 sec. to make a few additional roaches. Your idea assumes that the zerg makes no units during the entire time of the attack. That's kind of dumb. Roaches do not die to zealots, because of creep and kitting. The moment he sees proxy pylons, he will start building roaches. As I said I already ran into this build on the ladder, before even reading about it and I had no problems doing the described by me above. First rule of the internet: reps or it didn't happen. On April 13 2012 16:00 ckolev wrote:1st: If you leave 2 zealots and 3 roaches spawn, that base is safe. You need to send more zealots, which will weaken the attack on the nat. "Safe" but not mining. Having a lonely hatchery in the middle of nowhere doesn't help you. On April 13 2012 16:00 ckolev wrote:2nd: Again, like so many you are assuming that you roaches are going to fight the zealots head on. ROACHES KITE!!!!! The idea of the build is to attack 2 locations at the same time. By forcing the protoss to attack one location, those 20-30 zealots will not be able to kill more than the queens. At that point - so what? You have 25-30 roaches and he protoss has no gas, no tech. Any zealots you make from that point are going to be destroyed. You need 3 warp-in cycles to have more zealots than there are roaches now. 3 Warp-in cycles are over 1:30 minutes. You say chrono - I say you have 9 gates, how many chrono can you have at that point? 8 max, cuz you are on 2 bases. You can reduce the warp-in time by 15 seconds. I still have more roaches than the protoss. This build is bad. Works once every 50 games (maybe even not as often). So, what you're saying is: if the zerg scouts the build, reacts correctly, and micros well, then zerg wins? I guess that makes it just like every other allin in the damn game. But saying "just kite" is a vast oversimplification. Have you ever tried to kite in the natural of shakuras plateau? Fighting zealots with roaches when you have mineral lines to defend is not the same as fighting in open ground; if you kite too far, suddenly you can't mine from that base. Protoss will be sending zealots to all of your mineral lines, so you still have to have excellent multitasking and crisis management to hold it off. Of course it's winnable for zerg, but this build is no worse than the hatch-cancel roach allin, and that build won an MLG. | ||
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ckolev
51 Posts
First rule of the internet: reps or it didn't happen. I'd love to, but I can't right now, will look for it tonight. I don't care if anyone believes me or not. If you don't want to use my response against this build, don't, better win rate for me then. "Safe" but not mining. Having a lonely hatchery in the middle of nowhere doesn't help you. Please don't use just parts of what I said, out of context. If the base is not dead and you evacuated 20 drones, by loosing ~5, then its easy to re-saturate the base if the hatchery is still up (of course once the attack is repelled). At the point of your attack, toss is on 32 probes. Your 2 saturated bases are much stronger than his 2 bases. So, what you're saying is: if the zerg scouts the build, reacts correctly, and micros well, then zerg wins? I guess that makes it just like every other allin in the damn game. But saying "just kite" is a vast oversimplification. Have you ever tried to kite in the natural of shakuras plateau? Fighting zealots with roaches when you have mineral lines to defend is not the same as fighting in open ground; if you kite too far, suddenly you can't mine from that base. Protoss will be sending zealots to all of your mineral lines, so you still have to have excellent multitasking and crisis management to hold it off. Of course it's winnable for zerg, but this build is no worse than the hatch-cancel roach allin, and that build won an MLG. Where do I say that zerg wins??? I said that zerg is ahead, even if he looses the 3rd base because of better tech and more drones, than probes. But saying "just kite" is a vast oversimplification Well, actually its as simple as that. Any zerg can confirm. Its like marine kitting. Only you have better speed because of creep and eventually because of roach speed. Also I didn't specify the map. In let me tell you about one more trick to stop the zealots from taking the roaches head on in the natiral of Shakuras especially - DRONE STOP COMMAND!!! You put your drones between the zealots and the roaches, start spamming STOP command on the drones and the zealots start to "dance" in front of them. The hold-position trick zergs use with lings is not that good in this case, because the melee units need to be between the workers, which is not the case. Also the zealots can start to focus the drones 1by1, but a bit of mineral-mining micro can do wonders. | ||
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Xujhan
Canada65 Posts
On April 13 2012 19:55 ckolev wrote:Please don't use just parts of what I said, out of context. If the base is not dead and you evacuated 20 drones, by loosing ~5, then its easy to re-saturate the base if the hatchery is still up (of course once the attack is repelled). At the point of your attack, toss is on 32 probes. Your 2 saturated bases are much stronger than his 2 bases. I did you the favour of assuming you'd at least read the OP; obviously that was unjustified. Protoss isn't pulling back. The attack is allin; OP acknowledges that. Having a third hatchery not mining isn't going to help you hold off the attack now, which is what zerg needs to do. If you hold the attack with 3 bases up, yeah, you win. But if you hold with 2 bases up you still win, so it's really not relevant. On April 13 2012 19:55 ckolev wrote:Where do I say that zerg wins??? I said that zerg is ahead, even if he looses the 3rd base because of better tech and more drones, than probes. What? If you hold the attack, you win. Yeah, we know. Every allin is like that. The question is how easy the allin is to hold, and you seem to be assuming it's near trivial. That's we point we're arguing about; of course zerg is way ahead if he holds. No one's arguing that. On April 13 2012 19:55 ckolev wrote:Well, actually its as simple as that. Any zerg can confirm. Its like marine kitting. Only you have better speed because of creep and eventually because of roach speed. Also I didn't specify the map. In let me tell you about one more trick to stop the zealots from taking the roaches head on in the natiral of Shakuras especially - DRONE STOP COMMAND!!! You put your drones between the zealots and the roaches, start spamming STOP command on the drones and the zealots start to "dance" in front of them. The hold-position trick zergs use with lings is not that good in this case, because the melee units need to be between the workers, which is not the case. Also the zealots can start to focus the drones 1by1, but a bit of mineral-mining micro can do wonders. "Just micro; you'll win!" Yeah, okay. If you can stutterstep your roaches, stop command and mineral walk drones in two locations, protect your queens and keep up your injects, use your larva as they hatch, and do this all while protoss is completely free to micro their zealots, you can probably hold. That's obviously not hard at all. | ||
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Cyro
United Kingdom20276 Posts
On April 12 2012 21:45 EndOfLine wrote: As a master NA zerg. This build is the bane of my life! I need to start making banelings lol 6 banes (3 larvae, 300/150) to kill 1 zealot (100/0) if he splits. You would have to match his production and guarantee hitting 5 zealots on average per bane to stay even (gas mines slightly slower than minerals, so is worth more than 1:1 conversion) and you cannot match his production at this timing OR guarantee those hits. | ||
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ckolev
51 Posts
- build roaches don't lings, extra minerals go to spines at the natural. If you evacuate the drones from 3rd (at least 50%), you will have drones to spare. - micro roaches and queens. micro according to the situation (should be so obvious). - sack 3rd, if no hope to save. Do not fight an overwhelming amount of zealots, just so you can save it. - build extra queens as soon as you see the attack coming. Even if you don't lose any queens, (you should loose at least the one at the 3rd), you will have 4 queens, 2 additional hatches after attack is stopped are not so uncommon. - if you don't agree with the tips above, do not use them. Just thought of one more thing players can do (specially on the dreaded Shakuras Plateau) - Wall-of natural with 3 evos (similar to protoss wall of) and put roaches and spines behind them. Costs 3 drones and 225 minerals. This should cost the Protoss too much zealots to break. | ||
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HungryGeKo
United States9 Posts
Someone suggested taking only 1 gas, and I just tried it out--it works much better. There is no way that a zerg will let you get away with this build if it's scouted too early, so you'll need the stalker in your base instead of out protecting your probe. 1 gas means that your stalker will be out later, giving you time to build a zealot to scout. With the help of a probe, the zealot can kill 4 zerglings (if your opponent has more than that, just sac your units to scout. If he has more than 4 speedlings, he's probably planning an all-in). Once your stalker has cleared out any initial overlords, it can help defend your scout until your 10 gates are done. As long as your opponent doesn't scout this until ~7 minutes, you should be fine. Overall, very fun build TY for making my PvZs quick and interesting ^^ | ||
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HectorZeroni
United States216 Posts
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Sakray
France2198 Posts
On April 13 2012 19:55 ckolev wrote: Well, actually its as simple as that. Any zerg can confirm. Its like marine kitting. Only you have better speed because of creep and eventually because of roach speed. Actually, in this case since the zerg is defending, he's the one under pressure (I assume mental pressure). Plus he's facing an all-in, so it's even worse. Usually yeah, the zerg wil try to kite, that kind of stuff, and trust me it's fucking easy to trap them somewhere on the base (usually behind the mineral line). You just have to anticipate where the zerg is gonna make his next move command, you send a wave of zealots there, and you're done. I have 95-100% winrate with this build, even when Z has an overlord over my 9 gates, I managed to kill them with just micro, so no, it's not as easy to defend as you pretend. | ||
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uNAware
United States61 Posts
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KalWarkov
Germany4126 Posts
also, 7:40-8:00 is ONLY possible if youre being greedy, youd die to any roach or bling allin. ofc, youll be able to scout a possible 3rd, but its not like they couldnt cancel it. also, you have to gateway before cannon which can be iffy sometimes. still, its a great allin and very hard to hold if the zerg players are dumb enough to let a probe survive on the map and build proxypylons everywhere. yes, you hide it in a far away corner and "pylon" towards his 3rd or natu, but very good players will always find your probe / pylon. you can overproduce pylons near his base so he cant kill them in time, but that weakens your allin. | ||
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Protossking
Australia103 Posts
On April 18 2012 13:10 KalWarkov wrote: why 10 gates? you cant even support those. 8 or 9 is better imo. also, 7:40-8:00 is ONLY possible if youre being greedy, youd die to any roach or bling allin. ofc, youll be able to scout a possible 3rd, but its not like they couldnt cancel it. also, you have to gateway before cannon which can be iffy sometimes. still, its a great allin and very hard to hold if the zerg players are dumb enough to let a probe survive on the map and build proxypylons everywhere. yes, you hide it in a far away corner and "pylon" towards his 3rd or natu, but very good players will always find your probe / pylon. you can overproduce pylons near his base so he cant kill them in time, but that weakens your allin. You can support them -.-, you're only warping in zealots not costly stalkers. In fact everything you said is wrong. You're not meant to play "safe' to beat a roach all in, you're meant to scout. | ||
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KalWarkov
Germany4126 Posts
On April 18 2012 13:25 Protossking wrote: You can support them -.-, you're only warping in zealots not costly stalkers. In fact everything you said is wrong. You're not meant to play "safe' to beat a roach all in, you're meant to scout. if you macro perfectly, you cant. youre not oversaturated at your 2 bases and have 50 probes on 2 bases or sth. with this early allin. also, if you do this build out of 1 gas and not out of 2 gas with 2 probes in each of them, all it takes for the Z is to scout your main once with an early overlord and he knows for certain what awaits him. he will still have huge problems to deal with it obviously, but i dno, you dont even have stuff to kill overlords running into your base. dont get me wrong, its a cool build and i also use it occasionally, but to be able to make it a 7:40-8:00 first warpin you need to cut so many corners that great zerg players should be able to punish you for it or be rdy enough to survive with "small" losses (that means his drones survive or his 3rd doesnt die, but his drones at the 3rd do). | ||
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FLiP491
United States124 Posts
I am wondering though, why do you need double gas? single gas gives you the gas you need to hit all the timings i see. when compared with a stalker, a zealot or two is also pretty good in fighting lings on an open map with micro. i played it twice where i only played one gas and pulled the probes once i had +1 wg and the stalker building, it feels better imo. I'm wondering if there is something else i should be doing with the extra mins saved by not going second gas also, this style feels super easy to win with... I've played games where I made some pretty big mistakes and still won fairly easily | ||
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Protossking
Australia103 Posts
On April 18 2012 13:29 KalWarkov wrote: if you macro perfectly, you cant. youre not oversaturated at your 2 bases and have 50 probes on 2 bases or sth. with this early allin. also, if you do this build out of 1 gas and not out of 2 gas with 2 probes in each of them, all it takes for the Z is to scout your main once with an early overlord and he knows for certain what awaits him. he will still have huge problems to deal with it obviously, but i dno, you dont even have stuff to kill overlords running into your base. dont get me wrong, its a cool build and i also use it occasionally, but to be able to make it a 7:40-8:00 first warpin you need to cut so many corners that great zerg players should be able to punish you for it or be rdy enough to survive with "small" losses (that means his drones survive or his 3rd doesnt die, but his drones at the 3rd do). Lol.. no. Firstly, it's 32 probes. Any more and you're not doing it right. Secondly, your first warpin should be 10 zealots aka 1000 minerals, it flows pretty well. Thirdly, it's 2 gas for a reason, its impossible to start +1 attack wg research and 1 stalker at the same time unless you have 2 guisers mining until 200 gas. Fourthly, zergs don't usually scout until the timing that this push hits, which is too late. You also have a stalker to kill overlords before the timing hits. Sure there are problems with this build but you're identifying non-existing ones. The problem with this build is that if the zerg gets an early roach warren and a couple of spines then you have lost. | ||
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JitnikoVi
Russian Federation396 Posts
(almost always i get the third, but am unable to go further) | ||
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Childplay
Canada263 Posts
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