So we all would like to have top level mechanics. We all know the pros did not just wake up one day to find they had 200+ AMP + Show Spoiler +
First off most pros played something that took good hand speed like a musical instrument or played played other video games. After developing good hand speeds all was left was to know how to move around SC2's interface and learn different micro/macro techniques.
Now, For us who do not have prior experience to build up our natural hand speeds we just have to build speed as we learn how to micro/macro. We are better off using builds and strategies that our mechanics can support to improve upon our core mechanics. Also, we must use a build that is just hard enough for us to have something to improve on.
<- So how did they get their?
This leads in to the basic theory for improving in SC2. Use all-in builds (off any number of bases).
Now, most of us would like to try to play a stander macro style game. + Show Spoiler +
I like to compare it to lifting weights.
Learning the proper way to do a dead lift exercise is similar to learning strategy in SC2. And weights are similar to how hard the build is to do. Mechanics are much like your muscle
So, you may the proper techniques for doing a dead left with 350lbs yet your muscle can't support it. If you keep trying to lift that 350lbs you may improve slowly but we all can tell that it is not the best way to go about building muscle.
And Still, Players have the misguided idea in their heads that using a macro style build is the best way to improve on mechanics. Macro style builds are too demanding on mechanics for most of us to use properly.
If we started out doing dead lifts using weights that we can handle like 175lbs. Then we can improve wile still actually preforming what we set out to do. All-ins builds are lighter weights
<- Yet we lack the ability (mechanics).
All-in builds allow you to improve upon many skill that are needed to support and learn a macro style of play. + Show Spoiler +
All-in builds take then need for strategy out of your hands. They allow you to solely work on your core mechanics like unit control macro stick to a build order you learn how to size up armies how to engage how to move around SC2's interface.
All-ins all so makes replay analysis easer. It is much easer to spot where you went wrong and how to fix it. This builds your skill at replay analysis.
Many people have run in to a issue with their macro build. They can't seem to stop "xyz" attack. Yet when the prep for it they die to "abc" attack. Yet with improved mechanics this issue seems to resolves it self. Changing over form your "2 base pressure in to a 3rd" build to a 2 base allin well allow you to build you mechanics faster because you can spot where you are slipping much easer.
Doing 1 base all-ins will help build your macro up to where you can try holding an expo and using 2 base all-ins. With good practice a 2 base all in will build your mechanics up to the point that a macro style game is feasible to work with. Start at your skill level, If you can do 2 base all ins and hold a expatiation start there.
Here is a list of builds relative to skill level. + Show Spoiler +
Cheese (6pool, cannon, allin 2rax.)
1 base allins. (Roach rush, 4 gate, 3rax) <-- Bronze/Sliver should start here
1 base pressure expands (3gate, speedling expand, 2 rax expand)
2 base allins - simple. (8gate, 6 rax / 111, 2 base roach ling) <-- Gold/Plat/Dia should start here
2 base pressure/timings in to 3rds (5 gate robo, marine tank / MMM, Muta / ling roach)
Fast 3rds
Note: I am not advising to new player that you should use 1 base all-ins for a long period of time. All ins can be done off any number of bases and it is important to push your self up to improve. There are sum very hard to execute allins out there. At some point you will need to stop doing all ins but not until high masters.
This sounds a bit like Tangs general concept of improving by playing aggressively. That said, why waste time doing allins to learn the basics when you can play macro to learn the basics with more focus on basics which improve your play a lot.
On April 04 2012 23:08 Tobberoth wrote: This sounds a bit like Tangs general concept of improving by playing aggressively. That said, why waste time doing allins to learn the basics when you can play macro to learn the basics with more focus on basics which improve your play a lot.
I like to compare it to lifting weights.
Learning the proper way to do a dead lift exercise is similar to learning strategy in SC2. And weights are similar to how hard the build is to do. Mechanics are much like your muscle
So, you may the proper techniques for doing a dead left with 350lbs yet your muscle can't support it. If you keep trying to lift that 350lbs you may improve slowly but we all can tell that it is not the best way to go about building muscle.
And Still, Players have the misguided idea in their heads that using a macro style build is the best way to improve on mechanics. Macro style builds are too demanding on mechanics for most of us to use properly. If we started out doing dead lifts using weights that we can handle like 175lbs. Then we can improve wile still actually preforming what we set out to do.
I feel like all of this information is on TL in one post or another, but thanks for getting it all together.
I'm a victim of this. I'd love to play a longer macro game, but I don't have the mechanics to scout as often as I'd like to (or the knowledge to know for sure what conclusions to draw from the information I acquire). This leads to many early BO losses.
So far, I have a 100% win rate (two matches, lulz) with my 7RR, expanding behind the push (~34 food). Compare this to my typical "safe" BO of 14g14p with speed and 21 expo, where I typically drone too hard and fail to defend my opponent's push... or if I do defend, I typically lose my natural and then end up behind anyway, only to lose a few minutes later.
I think if you play every game where you want to have good mechanics, ex injecting at 25 energy everytime, or not getting supply blocked. You need to just play more games with these in mind, and watch your replays and look at when you supply blocked yourself or missed an inject.
On April 04 2012 23:08 Tobberoth wrote: This sounds a bit like Tangs general concept of improving by playing aggressively. That said, why waste time doing allins to learn the basics when you can play macro to learn the basics with more focus on basics which improve your play a lot.
A good way to compare it might be something similar to Day9's mental checklist exercises. At the end of it, you're building drones, injecting on 4+ bases, building and rallying units, spreading creep, placing overlords, and microing / splitting units in the middle of the map. Trying to jump right into doing all of that for a new player is pretty intimidating. But, if you can get a player in the habit of building drones while looking at the watch tower in the middle of the map, then building drones while looking elsewhere and going back quickly to inject, etc on and on. Eventually adding in the small steps won't be that difficult.
What he's saying is focus on executing a one base all in (or one base highly aggressive build) to near-perfection. Focus on getting your timings down and optimizing everything. The fact that it's a one base build will leave you more time (and thinking) for doing a bit more than a-moving your army into your opponents mineral line. When you feel comfortable with that (by comfortable I mean doing most of it without thinking about it) then work on a two base all in. Then work on a two base timing attack. etc etc.
On April 04 2012 23:12 DarK[A] wrote: I feel like all of this information is on TL in one post or another, but thanks for getting it all together.
I'm a victim of this. I'd love to play a longer macro game, but I don't have the mechanics to scout as often as I'd like to (or the knowledge to know for sure what conclusions to draw from the information I acquire). This leads to many early BO losses.
So far, I have a 100% win rate (two matches, lulz) with my 7RR, expanding behind the push (~34 food). Compare this to my typical "safe" BO of 14g14p with speed and 21 expo, where I typically drone too hard and fail to defend my opponent's push... or if I do defend, I typically lose my natural and then end up behind anyway, only to lose a few minutes later.
Good, building you skills up will help you later in SC2. It is important to keep pushing you self to try harder to use all-ins. like going for 4 gate to FFE > 8 gate. Or FFE > 8 gate to 7 gate +2 blink
Players who do not step it up will never be able to play a macro style.
On April 04 2012 23:08 Tobberoth wrote: This sounds a bit like Tangs general concept of improving by playing aggressively. That said, why waste time doing allins to learn the basics when you can play macro to learn the basics with more focus on basics which improve your play a lot.
I like to compare it to lifting weights.
Learning the proper way to do a dead lift exercise is similar to learning strategy in SC2. And weights are similar to how hard the build is to do. Mechanics are much like your muscle
So, you may the proper techniques for doing a dead left with 350lbs yet your muscle can't support it. If you keep trying to lift that 350lbs you may improve slowly but we all can tell that it is not the best way to go about building muscle.
And Still, Players have the misguided idea in their heads that using a macro style build is the best way to improve on mechanics. Macro style builds are too demanding on mechanics for most of us to use properly. If we started out doing dead lifts using weights that we can handle like 175lbs. Then we can improve wile still actually preforming what we set out to do.
I disagree with this comparision. You need X amount of strength to lift Y weights, so if you have X/2 strength, you would do better to lift Y/2 weights, but this builds muscles which are exactly what you need to lift that Y weight. On the other hand, going for 1base allins might improve your mechanics slightly (allthough ever so slightly since it's too easy to do a 1base allin to ever be challenged mechanically), but what you learn isn't usable when you get to a league where players laugh at your horrible play... and there's nothing you can do because you need to switch to a macro build, which suddenly puts a new kind of pressure on your mechanics, which means you'll just fall down again. You can't go from 1base allin to proper macro just off the mechanics you build from 1base allins.
Instead of using cheesy/allin tactics to get wins you don't deserve, it's better to train macro style against AI/with multitask trainers etc, and then go from there. You won't get 200 APM from doing allins, and you don't need 200APM to play macro games. As long as you have good benchmarks, training macro works fine against the AI, and nothing gets your mechanics and APM up like the team liquid multitask trainer.
When I started playing SC2 I didn't have any RTS experience, I came from the CS1.6 scene so my left hand wasn't adjusted to "dancing" around the keyboard buttons. What I did is practice hell of a lot with Darglein's Micro Trainer 1a2a3a4a challenge. In the start I barely managed to keep 200apm for more than 5 minutes but now I can easily keep 500apm for 10minutes or something. I'm still not happy with this but my point is that you need to develop your muscles. Sure, you can be the greatest mind in SC2 but I don't want to mention names so I'll just say that there are a lot of pro gamers who barely have 250apm and can't keep up with most of the multitasking past the 10minute mark.
So, summary: To train your muscles - Darglein's micro trainer - 1a2a3a4a challenge To train your brain - when I try to learn fast a build I play a lot vs AI because it's way faster to recreate a game and you can control the behavior of the AI. When you're confident enough, you play ladder or custom games.
On April 04 2012 23:08 Tobberoth wrote: This sounds a bit like Tangs general concept of improving by playing aggressively. That said, why waste time doing allins to learn the basics when you can play macro to learn the basics with more focus on basics which improve your play a lot.
I like to compare it to lifting weights.
Learning the proper way to do a dead lift exercise is similar to learning strategy in SC2. And weights are similar to how hard the build is to do. Mechanics are much like your muscle
So, you may the proper techniques for doing a dead left with 350lbs yet your muscle can't support it. If you keep trying to lift that 350lbs you may improve slowly but we all can tell that it is not the best way to go about building muscle.
And Still, Players have the misguided idea in their heads that using a macro style build is the best way to improve on mechanics. Macro style builds are too demanding on mechanics for most of us to use properly. If we started out doing dead lifts using weights that we can handle like 175lbs. Then we can improve wile still actually preforming what we set out to do.
I disagree with this comparision. You need X amount of strength to lift Y weights, so if you have X/2 strength, you would do better to lift Y/2 weights, but this builds muscles which are exactly what you need to lift that Y weight. On the other hand, going for 1base allins might improve your mechanics slightly (allthough ever so slightly since it's too easy to do a 1base allin to ever be challenged mechanically), but what you learn isn't usable when you get to a league where players laugh at your horrible play... and there's nothing you can do because you need to switch to a macro build, which suddenly puts a new kind of pressure on your mechanics, which means you'll just fall down again. You can't go from 1base allin to proper macro just off the mechanics you build from 1base allins.
Instead of using cheesy/allin tactics to get wins you don't deserve, it's better to train macro style against AI/with multitask trainers etc, and then go from there. You won't get 200 APM from doing allins, and you don't need 200APM to play macro games. As long as you have good benchmarks, training macro works fine against the AI, and nothing gets your mechanics and APM up like the team liquid multitask trainer.
Yes there are a lot of tools out there that can help build your mechanics. I feel playing 1v1 on ladder is the best way to improve at a lower level. It builds confidence.
Macro games (a game that takes a planed 3rd/4th base and intend to go to the late game) take a lot of mechanics to support it.
1 base allins, 2 base allins, (for Zerg 3 base allins), and macro builds are stepping stones that make learning easer. Sure you can jump straight to macro games. but your going to miss a lot of skill your would have picked up learning the other lower allins.
Allin builds are very viable up to GM. In-fact the top 20 on NA ladder is mostly cheese. At the last MLG we seen Huk use 2 base gateway allins vs zerg to grate effect.
Destiny showed us that mechanics, not strategy and macro builds, are needed to get through lower levels of play when he did his mass queen series
On April 04 2012 23:12 DarK[A] wrote: I feel like all of this information is on TL in one post or another, but thanks for getting it all together.
I'm a victim of this. I'd love to play a longer macro game, but I don't have the mechanics to scout as often as I'd like to (or the knowledge to know for sure what conclusions to draw from the information I acquire). This leads to many early BO losses.
So far, I have a 100% win rate (two matches, lulz) with my 7RR, expanding behind the push (~34 food). Compare this to my typical "safe" BO of 14g14p with speed and 21 expo, where I typically drone too hard and fail to defend my opponent's push... or if I do defend, I typically lose my natural and then end up behind anyway, only to lose a few minutes later.
But you have realized why you are losing (over droning). Losing 10 games in a row due to over droning will net you more in the long run than winning 10 games in a row with an all-in.
As far as mechanics go, I don't agree with the OP. To use your "lifting weights" metaphor...yes, you have to start small and work your way up. However, more repetitions of less weight will give you a better cut, as opposed to more weight which will give you more bulk. In starcraft terms, if you play 10 games of macro (always producing workers, money low, etc.) you are training yourself to have a more solid core gameplay.
Take 2 different builds, for example: 3 gate expand vs. 4 gate
If you 4 gate everygame, yes your handspeedwill improve, because you are repeating this build over and over. The same could be said for 3 gate expand, however. The more you do the 3 gate expand, the faster your hands will get, because you are repeating the build.
Your argument is that some players do not HAVE the handspeed to keep up with a macro build. Most often, this is only the case, because the player is not making a conscious effort to improve their macro. And, most often, they aren't even following a "build plan" they are just winging it. All-in builds have a set structure, so it is easy to go into a game with a set plan.But, macro builds have set plans too, the plan just continues for a longer period of time. TL:DR
Now, back to my main point. Executing an all-in build will not generate the same net improvement of mechanics as macro builds in the LONG TERM. Because, macro builds have set structures too. Players with weaker mechanics just need to have their objectives in mind when going into a game (Day 9 did a daily yesterday on building groupings - this is sort of what I am talking about). Repetition of these macro oriented building grouping builds will not only generate a sort of comfort level in macro play but also help when transitioning into other styles of play. A player comfortable with macro can transition into an all-in build. But, a player who all-in from bronze-diamond will not be able to transition as quickly into a macro style.
On April 04 2012 23:08 Tobberoth wrote: This sounds a bit like Tangs general concept of improving by playing aggressively. That said, why waste time doing allins to learn the basics when you can play macro to learn the basics with more focus on basics which improve your play a lot.
I like to compare it to lifting weights.
Learning the proper way to do a dead lift exercise is similar to learning strategy in SC2. And weights are similar to how hard the build is to do. Mechanics are much like your muscle
So, you may the proper techniques for doing a dead left with 350lbs yet your muscle can't support it. If you keep trying to lift that 350lbs you may improve slowly but we all can tell that it is not the best way to go about building muscle.
And Still, Players have the misguided idea in their heads that using a macro style build is the best way to improve on mechanics. Macro style builds are too demanding on mechanics for most of us to use properly. If we started out doing dead lifts using weights that we can handle like 175lbs. Then we can improve wile still actually preforming what we set out to do.
I disagree with this comparision. You need X amount of strength to lift Y weights, so if you have X/2 strength, you would do better to lift Y/2 weights, but this builds muscles which are exactly what you need to lift that Y weight. On the other hand, going for 1base allins might improve your mechanics slightly (allthough ever so slightly since it's too easy to do a 1base allin to ever be challenged mechanically), but what you learn isn't usable when you get to a league where players laugh at your horrible play... and there's nothing you can do because you need to switch to a macro build, which suddenly puts a new kind of pressure on your mechanics, which means you'll just fall down again. You can't go from 1base allin to proper macro just off the mechanics you build from 1base allins.
Instead of using cheesy/allin tactics to get wins you don't deserve, it's better to train macro style against AI/with multitask trainers etc, and then go from there. You won't get 200 APM from doing allins, and you don't need 200APM to play macro games. As long as you have good benchmarks, training macro works fine against the AI, and nothing gets your mechanics and APM up like the team liquid multitask trainer.
Yes there are a lot of tools out there that can help build your mechanics. I feel playing 1v1 on ladder is the best way to improve at a lower level. It builds confidence.
Macro games (a game that takes a planed 3rd/4th base and intend to go to the late game) take a lot of mechanics to support it.
1 base allins, 2 base allins, (for Zerg 3 base allins), and macro builds are stepping stones that make learning easer. Sure you can jump straight to macro games. but your going to miss a lot of skill your would have picked up learning the other lower allins.
Allin builds are very viable up to GM. In-fact the top 20 on NA ladder is mostly cheese. At the last MLG we seen Huk use 2 base gateway allins vs zerg to grate effect.
Destiny showed us that mechanics, not strategy and macro builds, are needed to get through lower levels of play when he did his mass queen series
Exactly my point, the difference is that you believe 1base allins build the mechanics Destiny is promoting, but they don't. It's like your goal is to get to masters, that's running a marathon. Using 1base allins as training is like going "I can't run a marathon, so I'll run a 200 meters as fast as I can instead". Going for 1base timing push into an attempt at a later game is like running 200 meters as fast as you can, then continuing for as long as possible. Learning macro from the start by proper training is like learning the proper techniques for running which you need for a marathon, then running as far as possible until you get there.
To do a one base allin, the only mechanics you need is to look at your base and put everything down at the right time, you barely need hotkeys. It's not a useful skill to have as you start expanding. You say it builds confidence, but I think that's a load of BS. Winning against bad opponents using 1base allins shouldn't make you confident, it should make you feel ashamed since you're simplifying the game because of your own lack of skill.
On April 04 2012 23:12 DarK[A] wrote: I feel like all of this information is on TL in one post or another, but thanks for getting it all together.
I'm a victim of this. I'd love to play a longer macro game, but I don't have the mechanics to scout as often as I'd like to (or the knowledge to know for sure what conclusions to draw from the information I acquire). This leads to many early BO losses.
So far, I have a 100% win rate (two matches, lulz) with my 7RR, expanding behind the push (~34 food). Compare this to my typical "safe" BO of 14g14p with speed and 21 expo, where I typically drone too hard and fail to defend my opponent's push... or if I do defend, I typically lose my natural and then end up behind anyway, only to lose a few minutes later.
But you have realized why you are losing (over droning). Losing 10 games in a row due to over droning will net you more in the long run than winning 10 games in a row with an all-in.
Well I guess my main reason for losing is failure to scout or have good overlord placement - so I don't know when I need to cut drones and get a round of units out and drop a spine or something. The bane of the Zerg race... drones or units.
I do also try to practice maxing out as quickly as possible on roaches or something, or playing long macro games against AI or a friend.
On April 04 2012 23:19 synd wrote: When I started playing SC2 I didn't have any RTS experience, I came from the CS1.6 scene so my left hand wasn't adjusted to "dancing" around the keyboard buttons. What I did is practice hell of a lot with Darglein's Micro Trainer 1a2a3a4a challenge. In the start I barely managed to keep 200apm for more than 5 minutes but now I can easily keep 500apm for 10minutes or something. I'm still not happy with this but my point is that you need to develop your muscles. Sure, you can be the greatest mind in SC2 but I don't want to mention names so I'll just say that there are a lot of pro gamers who barely have 250apm and can't keep up with most of the multitasking past the 10minute mark.
So, summary: To train your muscles - Darglein's micro trainer - 1a2a3a4a challenge To train your brain - when I try to learn fast a build I play a lot vs AI because it's way faster to recreate a game and you can control the behavior of the AI. When you're confident enough, you play ladder or custom games.
I came from competitive CS 1.6 as well (with some dabbling in Q3/Q4 dueling), so my hand was similarly not adjusted. I found my mouse accuracy was a lot better than other friends who had started playing Starcraft II, likely from the years of twitch aiming needed for Counter-Strike and flick rails found in Q3/Q4 and Quake Live (which I still play).
If you don't mind my asking, what league did you place into initially and what league are you now?
On April 04 2012 23:12 DarK[A] wrote: I feel like all of this information is on TL in one post or another, but thanks for getting it all together.
I'm a victim of this. I'd love to play a longer macro game, but I don't have the mechanics to scout as often as I'd like to (or the knowledge to know for sure what conclusions to draw from the information I acquire). This leads to many early BO losses.
So far, I have a 100% win rate (two matches, lulz) with my 7RR, expanding behind the push (~34 food). Compare this to my typical "safe" BO of 14g14p with speed and 21 expo, where I typically drone too hard and fail to defend my opponent's push... or if I do defend, I typically lose my natural and then end up behind anyway, only to lose a few minutes later.
But you have realized why you are losing (over droning). Losing 10 games in a row due to over droning will net you more in the long run than winning 10 games in a row with an all-in.
Well I guess my main reason for losing is failure to scout or have good overlord placement - so I don't know when I need to cut drones and get a round of units out and drop a spine or something. The bane of the Zerg race... drones or units.
I do also try to practice maxing out as quickly as possible on roaches or something, or playing long macro games against AI or a friend.
So my point is - all-ining every game will not help you learn when to cut drones on 2 bases. Losing over and over and over gain to not cutting drones WILL help you learn when to cut drones. Losing sucks - but everybody loses and you HAVE to lose to improve on a component of your play. If you lost, then you didn't do something that you could've done to win (like cut drones). Play 1 macro style over and over and you will progressively learn how to survive into later parts of the game (and as you learn more about your macro build, your hand speed will improve via repetition). All-ining may help you win, but how does that help you learn when to cut drones in a macro build?
On April 04 2012 23:12 DarK[A] wrote: I feel like all of this information is on TL in one post or another, but thanks for getting it all together.
I'm a victim of this. I'd love to play a longer macro game, but I don't have the mechanics to scout as often as I'd like to (or the knowledge to know for sure what conclusions to draw from the information I acquire). This leads to many early BO losses.
So far, I have a 100% win rate (two matches, lulz) with my 7RR, expanding behind the push (~34 food). Compare this to my typical "safe" BO of 14g14p with speed and 21 expo, where I typically drone too hard and fail to defend my opponent's push... or if I do defend, I typically lose my natural and then end up behind anyway, only to lose a few minutes later.
But you have realized why you are losing (over droning). Losing 10 games in a row due to over droning will net you more in the long run than winning 10 games in a row with an all-in.
As far as mechanics go, I don't agree with the OP. To use your "lifting weights" metaphor...yes, you have to start small and work your way up. However, more repetitions of less weight will give you a better cut, as opposed to more weight which will give you more bulk. In starcraft terms, if you play 10 games of macro (always producing workers, money low, etc.) you are training yourself to have a more solid core gameplay.
Take 2 different builds, for example: 3 gate expand vs. 4 gate
If you 4 gate everygame, yes your handspeedwill improve, because you are repeating this build over and over. The same could be said for 3 gate expand, however. The more you do the 3 gate expand, the faster your hands will get, because you are repeating the build.
Your argument is that some players do not HAVE the handspeed to keep up with a macro build. Most often, this is only the case, because the player is not making a conscious effort to improve their macro. And, most often, they aren't even following a "build plan" they are just winging it. All-in builds have a set structure, so it is easy to go into a game with a set plan.But, macro builds have set plans too, the plan just continues for a longer period of time. .
But I can guarantee you it is not his drone timing. it was his injects, his unit control, the timing on his building. his gas timings. he got supply blocked. All of which is hard for him to spot in a replay and improve on because there is soo much sh*t going on to focus
My argument is with a laid out build order and a single objective. Players can focus on improving their core skills sets.
When you try a build like FFE > 4/5 gate robo > 3rd. You must know how to deal with zerg 1 base cheese, zerg 2 base all-ins roach ling allins, Nydus hydra all ins, proxy hatch burrow roach allins. 200/200 roach timing. Muta timings. Infestor timings, Fast hive play.
That is a bit too much for some one who misses 2 warp ins, wasted sentry energy and get supply blocked once. Doing a 8gate allin would still be changeling but feasible
Tobberoth Your are focusing in too much on the "1 base" part of this. open your eyes and see that their are some very hard to use 3 base allins out there aka Zerg roach allin
On April 04 2012 23:12 DarK[A] wrote: I feel like all of this information is on TL in one post or another, but thanks for getting it all together.
I'm a victim of this. I'd love to play a longer macro game, but I don't have the mechanics to scout as often as I'd like to (or the knowledge to know for sure what conclusions to draw from the information I acquire). This leads to many early BO losses.
So far, I have a 100% win rate (two matches, lulz) with my 7RR, expanding behind the push (~34 food). Compare this to my typical "safe" BO of 14g14p with speed and 21 expo, where I typically drone too hard and fail to defend my opponent's push... or if I do defend, I typically lose my natural and then end up behind anyway, only to lose a few minutes later.
But you have realized why you are losing (over droning). Losing 10 games in a row due to over droning will net you more in the long run than winning 10 games in a row with an all-in.
As far as mechanics go, I don't agree with the OP. To use your "lifting weights" metaphor...yes, you have to start small and work your way up. However, more repetitions of less weight will give you a better cut, as opposed to more weight which will give you more bulk. In starcraft terms, if you play 10 games of macro (always producing workers, money low, etc.) you are training yourself to have a more solid core gameplay.
Take 2 different builds, for example: 3 gate expand vs. 4 gate
If you 4 gate everygame, yes your handspeedwill improve, because you are repeating this build over and over. The same could be said for 3 gate expand, however. The more you do the 3 gate expand, the faster your hands will get, because you are repeating the build.
Your argument is that some players do not HAVE the handspeed to keep up with a macro build. Most often, this is only the case, because the player is not making a conscious effort to improve their macro. And, most often, they aren't even following a "build plan" they are just winging it. All-in builds have a set structure, so it is easy to go into a game with a set plan.But, macro builds have set plans too, the plan just continues for a longer period of time. .
But I can guarantee you it is not his drone timing. it was his injects, his unit control, the timing on his building. his gas timings. he got supply blocked. All of which is hard for him to spot in a replay and improve on because there is soo much sh*t going on to focus
My argument is with a laid out build order and a single objective. Players can focus on improving their core skills sets.
Can't players work on improving their core skill sets in a macro build as well? Everybody has to learn how to deal with everything happening eventually. I see your point that all-ins take away some distractions - but those distractions are main components of a macro style - namely reacting to your opponent.
By all means, focus on the core mechanics in a game. For example, tell yourself "I will not get supply blocked in this game." But, I don't think weaker players should remove the element of reacting to the opponent alltogether just so they are not distracted while trying to improve.
On April 04 2012 23:12 DarK[A] wrote: I feel like all of this information is on TL in one post or another, but thanks for getting it all together.
I'm a victim of this. I'd love to play a longer macro game, but I don't have the mechanics to scout as often as I'd like to (or the knowledge to know for sure what conclusions to draw from the information I acquire). This leads to many early BO losses.
So far, I have a 100% win rate (two matches, lulz) with my 7RR, expanding behind the push (~34 food). Compare this to my typical "safe" BO of 14g14p with speed and 21 expo, where I typically drone too hard and fail to defend my opponent's push... or if I do defend, I typically lose my natural and then end up behind anyway, only to lose a few minutes later.
But you have realized why you are losing (over droning). Losing 10 games in a row due to over droning will net you more in the long run than winning 10 games in a row with an all-in.
As far as mechanics go, I don't agree with the OP. To use your "lifting weights" metaphor...yes, you have to start small and work your way up. However, more repetitions of less weight will give you a better cut, as opposed to more weight which will give you more bulk. In starcraft terms, if you play 10 games of macro (always producing workers, money low, etc.) you are training yourself to have a more solid core gameplay.
Take 2 different builds, for example: 3 gate expand vs. 4 gate
If you 4 gate everygame, yes your handspeedwill improve, because you are repeating this build over and over. The same could be said for 3 gate expand, however. The more you do the 3 gate expand, the faster your hands will get, because you are repeating the build.
Your argument is that some players do not HAVE the handspeed to keep up with a macro build. Most often, this is only the case, because the player is not making a conscious effort to improve their macro. And, most often, they aren't even following a "build plan" they are just winging it. All-in builds have a set structure, so it is easy to go into a game with a set plan.But, macro builds have set plans too, the plan just continues for a longer period of time. .
But I can guarantee you it is not his drone timing. it was his injects, his unit control, the timing on his building. his gas timings. he got supply blocked. All of which is hard for him to spot in a replay and improve on because there is soo much sh*t going on to focus
My argument is with a laid out build order and a single objective. Players can focus on improving their core skills sets.
Can't players work on improving their core skill sets in a macro build as well? Everybody has to learn how to deal with everything happening eventually. I see your point that all-ins take away some distractions - but those distractions are main components of a macro style - namely reacting to your opponent.
By all means, focus on the core mechanics in a game. For example, tell yourself "I will not get supply blocked in this game." But, I don't think weaker players should remove the element of reacting to the opponent alltogether just so they are not distracted while trying to improve.
I've always trained my mechanics in games vs AI. You simple do a standard build you wanna practice and you make an army and you keep moving it without waypoints and clicking on minimap, it forces you to focus on getting your building placements fast and accurate so you can go back to your army fast, you can start just building buildings till you are accurate and fast and then go do the exercise. If you are good at it after some time, you can start doing it with two armies in two different hotkeys.
Atleast thats how I improved my mechanics, focus on small things like building a nexus/hatch/cc fast and build gas fast. The faster you can do it (check any pro stream and you see they master it), the more time you have to focus on the game.
On April 04 2012 23:19 synd wrote: When I started playing SC2 I didn't have any RTS experience, I came from the CS1.6 scene so my left hand wasn't adjusted to "dancing" around the keyboard buttons. What I did is practice hell of a lot with Darglein's Micro Trainer 1a2a3a4a challenge. In the start I barely managed to keep 200apm for more than 5 minutes but now I can easily keep 500apm for 10minutes or something. I'm still not happy with this but my point is that you need to develop your muscles. Sure, you can be the greatest mind in SC2 but I don't want to mention names so I'll just say that there are a lot of pro gamers who barely have 250apm and can't keep up with most of the multitasking past the 10minute mark.
So, summary: To train your muscles - Darglein's micro trainer - 1a2a3a4a challenge To train your brain - when I try to learn fast a build I play a lot vs AI because it's way faster to recreate a game and you can control the behavior of the AI. When you're confident enough, you play ladder or custom games.
I came from competitive CS 1.6 as well (with some dabbling in Q3/Q4 dueling), so my hand was similarly not adjusted. I found my mouse accuracy was a lot better than other friends who had started playing Starcraft II, likely from the years of twitch aiming needed for Counter-Strike and flick rails found in Q3/Q4 and Quake Live (which I still play).
If you don't mind my asking, what league did you place into initially and what league are you now?
When I started I saw ESL Rotterdam's University which greatly helped me. After the first 5 placement matches I got gold with only 3hrs of SC2 experience and then........ I didn't play for 3 months or something and now I'm only plat. Still I believe that if I play more often now as I want to, I could reach masters. Anyway I play daily custom games with masters so I do believe in myself xD
Now again on the topic, I forgot to mention one of the most important things before training, WRISTS HEALTH! Probably everyone knows that there are pro gamers who suffer some sort of carpal tunnel syndrom or repetitive strain injury, so you must do something to protect your wrists. I totally recommend Garin Bader's Finger Gymnastics. The best exercises you can get, besides that it's definitely not scam. After all everybody knows who Garin Bader is and what's he capable off with his hands
EPT
