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On April 05 2012 03:57 polybios wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2012 03:21 Drunken.Jedi wrote:
All ins work at any level of play, no matter whether you're in bronze league or in Code S. There is big difference between "all ins work at any level" and "all ins will improve your play steadily up to master level"
Well yes, that's true. So what?
The statement you quoted above was in repsonse to someone asserting that all ins only work on lower levels.
Nevertheless, the statement "all ins will improve your play steadily up to master level" is true as well. In fact, all inning is the easiest way to get to master level.
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On April 05 2012 03:01 Tobberoth wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2012 02:54 DarK[A] wrote:On April 05 2012 02:52 Moosy wrote:
All in builds? That's just silly. How do you learn to stay on top of your macro while attacking if all your focusing on is the all in. Just practice standard play (like the koreans do) and you'll improve mechanics. What's your opinion on something like the 7RR then, which isn't designed to really end the game, but more to force your opponent to spend their money on units? You take an expansion as you move out, and as long as you don't just a-move and make a cost-ineffective attack, you're ahead in econ. 7RR is allin, the whole opening is optimized to getting 7 fast roaches, sacrificing a ton of economy. The expansion is ridiculously late compared to any standard zerg opening, and when you don't do considerable damage with it, you lose. This is why 7RR isn't used in higher leagues, it's decently easy to defend and once defended, it's GG for the zerg. Your opponent doesn't have to spend all his money on units, and even if he does, he started to spend money on units later, which is better than earlier. Zerg works by getting a drone advantage early and living off it since the zerg army is so cost-inefficient. If you lose your 7 roaches and only forced a bunker... yeah, you're going to play from behind the whole game.
I dunno, I'm only silver and I was able to force a gg from my one friend who is a plat T. Killed off early 'rines on my way there, then broke down his wall and forced a lift off to another base. He built some banshees and tried to counter but I saw the starport and got an extra queen.
Then we played a regular game and he ran me over with hellions because I didn't scout it 
EDIT: No, I don't consider plat to be a "higher league". I just think that yes, it does force most people to overreact. And if it's not scouted, then it does an absolute ton of damage. (see Leenock's 7RR vs NaNi)
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On April 05 2012 03:59 Drunken.Jedi wrote:
The bolded part is a baseless accusation. All ins undoubtedly require skill to execute.
I don't see how your anecdote is relevant at all.
The skill required to pull of a trained allin is nothing compared to the skill required to be good enough with a standard safe build to win consistently with it. Anyone can learn an allin and pull it off and since it hits early, there's little time to make mistakes. Classic brood war quote, still true today: "The longer the game, the higher the chance the better player will win".
Now, making an allin work against a good player, that's something else, such as DRG using a 6pool. 6pool itself is horrible, to make it work against good players, your micro needs to be fantastic. Hardly something worth training compared to consistent standard play though, who wants to be known as the guy who does a fantastic 6pool but sucks at everything else?
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On April 05 2012 04:07 Drunken.Jedi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2012 03:57 polybios wrote:On April 05 2012 03:21 Drunken.Jedi wrote:
All ins work at any level of play, no matter whether you're in bronze league or in Code S. There is big difference between "all ins work at any level" and "all ins will improve your play steadily up to master level" Well yes, that's true. So what? The statement you quoted above was in repsonse to someone asserting that all ins only work on lower levels.
It was response to me and I did not claim all ins only work on lower levels. I claimed only allining stops working in gold/plat and doesn't bring any improvement, you nitpicked one sentence.
On April 05 2012 04:07 Drunken.Jedi wrote:
Nevertheless, the statement "all ins will improve your play steadily up to master level" is true as well. In fact, all inning is the easiest way to get to master level.
Pls tell me TvT all in which gets you to masters, I really haven't heard of any.
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On April 05 2012 04:16 Tobberoth wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2012 03:59 Drunken.Jedi wrote:
The bolded part is a baseless accusation. All ins undoubtedly require skill to execute.
I don't see how your anecdote is relevant at all. The skill required to pull of a trained allin is nothing compared to the skill required to be good enough with a standard safe build to win consistently with it. Anyone can learn an allin and pull it off and since it hits early, there's little time to make mistakes. Classic brood war quote, still true today: "The longer the game, the higher the chance the better player will win". Now, making an allin work against a good player, that's something else, such as DRG using a 6pool. 6pool itself is horrible, to make it work against good players, your micro needs to be fantastic. Hardly something worth training compared to consistent standard play though, who wants to be known as the guy who does a fantastic 6pool but sucks at everything else?
actionjesuz? sokrates?
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On April 05 2012 04:25 polybios wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2012 04:07 Drunken.Jedi wrote:On April 05 2012 03:57 polybios wrote:On April 05 2012 03:21 Drunken.Jedi wrote:
All ins work at any level of play, no matter whether you're in bronze league or in Code S. There is big difference between "all ins work at any level" and "all ins will improve your play steadily up to master level" Well yes, that's true. So what? The statement you quoted above was in repsonse to someone asserting that all ins only work on lower levels. It was response to me and I did not claim all ins only work on lower levels. I claimed only allining stops working in gold/plat and doesn't bring any improvement, you nitpicked one sentence. Show nested quote +On April 05 2012 04:07 Drunken.Jedi wrote:
Nevertheless, the statement "all ins will improve your play steadily up to master level" is true as well. In fact, all inning is the easiest way to get to master level. Pls tell me TvT all in which gets you to masters, I really haven't heard of any.
2rax + SCV all in works at all levels vs. all races when executed properly. People have gotten to high masters doing nothing but. Same with 6 pool and 4 gate for the other 2 races.
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On April 05 2012 05:06 jcarlson08 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2012 04:25 polybios wrote:On April 05 2012 04:07 Drunken.Jedi wrote:On April 05 2012 03:57 polybios wrote:On April 05 2012 03:21 Drunken.Jedi wrote:
All ins work at any level of play, no matter whether you're in bronze league or in Code S. There is big difference between "all ins work at any level" and "all ins will improve your play steadily up to master level" Well yes, that's true. So what? The statement you quoted above was in repsonse to someone asserting that all ins only work on lower levels. It was response to me and I did not claim all ins only work on lower levels. I claimed only allining stops working in gold/plat and doesn't bring any improvement, you nitpicked one sentence. On April 05 2012 04:07 Drunken.Jedi wrote:
Nevertheless, the statement "all ins will improve your play steadily up to master level" is true as well. In fact, all inning is the easiest way to get to master level. Pls tell me TvT all in which gets you to masters, I really haven't heard of any. 2rax + SCV all in works at all levels vs. all races when executed properly. People have gotten to high masters doing nothing but. Same with 6 pool and 4 gate for the other 2 races.
A year ago, not now.
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On April 05 2012 04:16 Tobberoth wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2012 03:59 Drunken.Jedi wrote:
The bolded part is a baseless accusation. All ins undoubtedly require skill to execute.
I don't see how your anecdote is relevant at all. The skill required to pull of a trained allin is nothing compared to the skill required to be good enough with a standard safe build to win consistently with it. Anyone can learn an allin and pull it off and since it hits early, there's little time to make mistakes. Classic brood war quote, still true today: "The longer the game, the higher the chance the better player will win". Now, making an allin work against a good player, that's something else, such as DRG using a 6pool. 6pool itself is horrible, to make it work against good players, your micro needs to be fantastic. Hardly something worth training compared to consistent standard play though, who wants to be known as the guy who does a fantastic 6pool but sucks at everything else?
The skill required to win with an all in depends mostly on the skill of your opponent. The same is true for succeeding in a "normal" game.
Yes, the skill ceiling is much higher in standard play and skill differences have a more severe effect in longer games, I never disputed that. However, the skill ceiling for all ins is still high enough for skill differences to be meaningful and important. Even pro players don't execute even the simplest all ins perfectly.
On April 05 2012 04:25 polybios wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2012 04:07 Drunken.Jedi wrote:On April 05 2012 03:57 polybios wrote:On April 05 2012 03:21 Drunken.Jedi wrote:
All ins work at any level of play, no matter whether you're in bronze league or in Code S. There is big difference between "all ins work at any level" and "all ins will improve your play steadily up to master level" Well yes, that's true. So what? The statement you quoted above was in repsonse to someone asserting that all ins only work on lower levels. It was response to me and I did not claim all ins only work on lower levels. I claimed only allining stops working in gold/plat and doesn't bring any improvement, you nitpicked one sentence.
Yes and there you once again say that "only allining stops working in gold/plat" which is simply not true. And someone who's able to execute two or three all ins very well won't be gold or plat for long.
Show nested quote +On April 05 2012 04:07 Drunken.Jedi wrote:
Nevertheless, the statement "all ins will improve your play steadily up to master level" is true as well. In fact, all inning is the easiest way to get to master level. Pls tell me TvT all in which gets you to masters, I really haven't heard of any.
Not sure on TvT since I don't play Terran and don't really follow the matchup closely. However I can tell you that as a mid to high master Zerg player, I have from time to time done some rather sloppily executed marine + scv all ins on ladder with reasonably good success. While TvT was certainly the hardest matchup with that, I'm still quite confident that you could get to Master with that.
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Telling a low level player to just macro better is kinda like telling a 4 year old "i" before "e" except after "c". When they are still saying "men-opee" for "n" "m" "o" "p" in the alphabet.
Sure a Plat league player can try to do that FFE with sentry / immortal to take his 3rd vs zerg's 200 roach push. but what is the point if you miss 2 warpins, forget to get +2, and make the robo 2 minuets late any ways?
SO! our plat league player tells his self " I will get my robo on time, I will check my forge for my +2, and warp in every time. NEXT GAME!!!" and then next game wile focusing of getting his warp ins right he gets supply blocked twice and cuts 4 probes. Then his 3rd is 2 mins late and he still loses.
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On April 05 2012 03:13 Tobberoth wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2012 03:11 RevBubba wrote:
i don't agree with using all-ins as a means to "improve mechanics". At some point the player will realize they can't play a macro game at the level they were all-in'ing at and probably quit the game in frustration. All-ins are good in tournaments when you know your opponent will try a style weak to the specific all-in, and good to know as an ace up your sleeve... but to do all-in's every game will give you a false sense of how good you really are.
The same is said with any build that is auto-pilot and has hard counters (most popular one I can think of is the no gas Spanishiwa-style opening). Once people start realizing the build has holes at specific timings they will compensate by hitting hard at those timings blindly. The build I refer to is very good but you can't use it every game. What are the hard counters to spanishiwa style opening? It's still really popular to get 4 queens and delay gas vs Terran in particular.
If you are known to do a gasless opening, a strong 1 base medivac / elevator opening will tear a gasless zerg to pieces, if played correctly. I am talking about the 1 base marine/hellion elevator play with fast medivac, you won't have speed on zerglings and you won't be able to defend this with just queens on most maps.
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basically get used to making workers all the time while building buildings and always having something producing from them. If a building cannot continually produce(one way or another) you dont have the eco (in one way or another) so either expand or trade. If other way round and you cant spend resources, create a means to dump the cash!
Simples, these tips carried me from bz to gold in about a month!
What i have found tho is people talk and talk and talk about what should be happening but give no viable way of practicing it, all i hear is play moar games, i dont feel this is the answer as when you get into a game you get right back and into what you know. The best thing to do i found is get into a community/sc2clan/team and get a practice partner to do some quirky challenges with youmy personal favourite for probes and pylons is one must be building at all times, if money gets more than the 150 mins you spend on a structure and continue till you have constant production on this cycle
probe
pylon (much harder for zerg to do this btw but i have methods)
Check cash (is there a probe pylon building, if not build)
(if money is over 150 and a probe and pylon is building build a rax/gate)
When this is build and pp are building and you are over 150 build units),
if 1 unit is building and a pp are building and your money isgetting out of control, build as many structures to keep mins below 400.
When workers get to 24 on on base, build expansion
Rinse and repeat
Its a drill i saw a dude do on a stream and it really does get you looking at whats building and checking your cash
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EPT
