So we all would like to have top level mechanics. We all know the pros did not just wake up one day to find they had 200+ AMP + Show Spoiler +
First off most pros played something that took good hand speed like a musical instrument or played played other video games. After developing good hand speeds all was left was to know how to move around SC2's interface and learn different micro/macro techniques.
Now, For us who do not have prior experience to build up our natural hand speeds we just have to build speed as we learn how to micro/macro. We are better off using builds and strategies that our mechanics can support to improve upon our core mechanics. Also, we must use a build that is just hard enough for us to have something to improve on.
<- So how did they get their?
This leads in to the basic theory for improving in SC2. Use all-in builds (off any number of bases).
Now, most of us would like to try to play a stander macro style game. + Show Spoiler +
I like to compare it to lifting weights.
Learning the proper way to do a dead lift exercise is similar to learning strategy in SC2. And weights are similar to how hard the build is to do. Mechanics are much like your muscle
So, you may the proper techniques for doing a dead left with 350lbs yet your muscle can't support it. If you keep trying to lift that 350lbs you may improve slowly but we all can tell that it is not the best way to go about building muscle.
And Still, Players have the misguided idea in their heads that using a macro style build is the best way to improve on mechanics. Macro style builds are too demanding on mechanics for most of us to use properly.
If we started out doing dead lifts using weights that we can handle like 175lbs. Then we can improve wile still actually preforming what we set out to do. All-ins builds are lighter weights
<- Yet we lack the ability (mechanics).
All-in builds allow you to improve upon many skill that are needed to support and learn a macro style of play. + Show Spoiler +
All-in builds take then need for strategy out of your hands. They allow you to solely work on your core mechanics like unit control macro stick to a build order you learn how to size up armies how to engage how to move around SC2's interface.
All-ins all so makes replay analysis easer. It is much easer to spot where you went wrong and how to fix it. This builds your skill at replay analysis.
Many people have run in to a issue with their macro build. They can't seem to stop "xyz" attack. Yet when the prep for it they die to "abc" attack. Yet with improved mechanics this issue seems to resolves it self. Changing over form your "2 base pressure in to a 3rd" build to a 2 base allin well allow you to build you mechanics faster because you can spot where you are slipping much easer.
Doing 1 base all-ins will help build your macro up to where you can try holding an expo and using 2 base all-ins. With good practice a 2 base all in will build your mechanics up to the point that a macro style game is feasible to work with. Start at your skill level, If you can do 2 base all ins and hold a expatiation start there.
Here is a list of builds relative to skill level. + Show Spoiler +
Cheese (6pool, cannon, allin 2rax.)
1 base allins. (Roach rush, 4 gate, 3rax) <-- Bronze/Sliver should start here
1 base pressure expands (3gate, speedling expand, 2 rax expand)
2 base allins - simple. (8gate, 6 rax / 111, 2 base roach ling) <-- Gold/Plat/Dia should start here
2 base pressure/timings in to 3rds (5 gate robo, marine tank / MMM, Muta / ling roach)
Fast 3rds
Note: I am not advising to new player that you should use 1 base all-ins for a long period of time. All ins can be done off any number of bases and it is important to push your self up to improve. There are sum very hard to execute allins out there. At some point you will need to stop doing all ins but not until high masters.
This sounds a bit like Tangs general concept of improving by playing aggressively. That said, why waste time doing allins to learn the basics when you can play macro to learn the basics with more focus on basics which improve your play a lot.
On April 04 2012 23:08 Tobberoth wrote: This sounds a bit like Tangs general concept of improving by playing aggressively. That said, why waste time doing allins to learn the basics when you can play macro to learn the basics with more focus on basics which improve your play a lot.
I like to compare it to lifting weights.
Learning the proper way to do a dead lift exercise is similar to learning strategy in SC2. And weights are similar to how hard the build is to do. Mechanics are much like your muscle
So, you may the proper techniques for doing a dead left with 350lbs yet your muscle can't support it. If you keep trying to lift that 350lbs you may improve slowly but we all can tell that it is not the best way to go about building muscle.
And Still, Players have the misguided idea in their heads that using a macro style build is the best way to improve on mechanics. Macro style builds are too demanding on mechanics for most of us to use properly. If we started out doing dead lifts using weights that we can handle like 175lbs. Then we can improve wile still actually preforming what we set out to do.
I feel like all of this information is on TL in one post or another, but thanks for getting it all together.
I'm a victim of this. I'd love to play a longer macro game, but I don't have the mechanics to scout as often as I'd like to (or the knowledge to know for sure what conclusions to draw from the information I acquire). This leads to many early BO losses.
So far, I have a 100% win rate (two matches, lulz) with my 7RR, expanding behind the push (~34 food). Compare this to my typical "safe" BO of 14g14p with speed and 21 expo, where I typically drone too hard and fail to defend my opponent's push... or if I do defend, I typically lose my natural and then end up behind anyway, only to lose a few minutes later.
I think if you play every game where you want to have good mechanics, ex injecting at 25 energy everytime, or not getting supply blocked. You need to just play more games with these in mind, and watch your replays and look at when you supply blocked yourself or missed an inject.
On April 04 2012 23:08 Tobberoth wrote: This sounds a bit like Tangs general concept of improving by playing aggressively. That said, why waste time doing allins to learn the basics when you can play macro to learn the basics with more focus on basics which improve your play a lot.
A good way to compare it might be something similar to Day9's mental checklist exercises. At the end of it, you're building drones, injecting on 4+ bases, building and rallying units, spreading creep, placing overlords, and microing / splitting units in the middle of the map. Trying to jump right into doing all of that for a new player is pretty intimidating. But, if you can get a player in the habit of building drones while looking at the watch tower in the middle of the map, then building drones while looking elsewhere and going back quickly to inject, etc on and on. Eventually adding in the small steps won't be that difficult.
What he's saying is focus on executing a one base all in (or one base highly aggressive build) to near-perfection. Focus on getting your timings down and optimizing everything. The fact that it's a one base build will leave you more time (and thinking) for doing a bit more than a-moving your army into your opponents mineral line. When you feel comfortable with that (by comfortable I mean doing most of it without thinking about it) then work on a two base all in. Then work on a two base timing attack. etc etc.
On April 04 2012 23:12 DarK[A] wrote: I feel like all of this information is on TL in one post or another, but thanks for getting it all together.
I'm a victim of this. I'd love to play a longer macro game, but I don't have the mechanics to scout as often as I'd like to (or the knowledge to know for sure what conclusions to draw from the information I acquire). This leads to many early BO losses.
So far, I have a 100% win rate (two matches, lulz) with my 7RR, expanding behind the push (~34 food). Compare this to my typical "safe" BO of 14g14p with speed and 21 expo, where I typically drone too hard and fail to defend my opponent's push... or if I do defend, I typically lose my natural and then end up behind anyway, only to lose a few minutes later.
Good, building you skills up will help you later in SC2. It is important to keep pushing you self to try harder to use all-ins. like going for 4 gate to FFE > 8 gate. Or FFE > 8 gate to 7 gate +2 blink
Players who do not step it up will never be able to play a macro style.
On April 04 2012 23:08 Tobberoth wrote: This sounds a bit like Tangs general concept of improving by playing aggressively. That said, why waste time doing allins to learn the basics when you can play macro to learn the basics with more focus on basics which improve your play a lot.
I like to compare it to lifting weights.
Learning the proper way to do a dead lift exercise is similar to learning strategy in SC2. And weights are similar to how hard the build is to do. Mechanics are much like your muscle
So, you may the proper techniques for doing a dead left with 350lbs yet your muscle can't support it. If you keep trying to lift that 350lbs you may improve slowly but we all can tell that it is not the best way to go about building muscle.
And Still, Players have the misguided idea in their heads that using a macro style build is the best way to improve on mechanics. Macro style builds are too demanding on mechanics for most of us to use properly. If we started out doing dead lifts using weights that we can handle like 175lbs. Then we can improve wile still actually preforming what we set out to do.
I disagree with this comparision. You need X amount of strength to lift Y weights, so if you have X/2 strength, you would do better to lift Y/2 weights, but this builds muscles which are exactly what you need to lift that Y weight. On the other hand, going for 1base allins might improve your mechanics slightly (allthough ever so slightly since it's too easy to do a 1base allin to ever be challenged mechanically), but what you learn isn't usable when you get to a league where players laugh at your horrible play... and there's nothing you can do because you need to switch to a macro build, which suddenly puts a new kind of pressure on your mechanics, which means you'll just fall down again. You can't go from 1base allin to proper macro just off the mechanics you build from 1base allins.
Instead of using cheesy/allin tactics to get wins you don't deserve, it's better to train macro style against AI/with multitask trainers etc, and then go from there. You won't get 200 APM from doing allins, and you don't need 200APM to play macro games. As long as you have good benchmarks, training macro works fine against the AI, and nothing gets your mechanics and APM up like the team liquid multitask trainer.
When I started playing SC2 I didn't have any RTS experience, I came from the CS1.6 scene so my left hand wasn't adjusted to "dancing" around the keyboard buttons. What I did is practice hell of a lot with Darglein's Micro Trainer 1a2a3a4a challenge. In the start I barely managed to keep 200apm for more than 5 minutes but now I can easily keep 500apm for 10minutes or something. I'm still not happy with this but my point is that you need to develop your muscles. Sure, you can be the greatest mind in SC2 but I don't want to mention names so I'll just say that there are a lot of pro gamers who barely have 250apm and can't keep up with most of the multitasking past the 10minute mark.
So, summary: To train your muscles - Darglein's micro trainer - 1a2a3a4a challenge To train your brain - when I try to learn fast a build I play a lot vs AI because it's way faster to recreate a game and you can control the behavior of the AI. When you're confident enough, you play ladder or custom games.
On April 04 2012 23:08 Tobberoth wrote: This sounds a bit like Tangs general concept of improving by playing aggressively. That said, why waste time doing allins to learn the basics when you can play macro to learn the basics with more focus on basics which improve your play a lot.
I like to compare it to lifting weights.
Learning the proper way to do a dead lift exercise is similar to learning strategy in SC2. And weights are similar to how hard the build is to do. Mechanics are much like your muscle
So, you may the proper techniques for doing a dead left with 350lbs yet your muscle can't support it. If you keep trying to lift that 350lbs you may improve slowly but we all can tell that it is not the best way to go about building muscle.
And Still, Players have the misguided idea in their heads that using a macro style build is the best way to improve on mechanics. Macro style builds are too demanding on mechanics for most of us to use properly. If we started out doing dead lifts using weights that we can handle like 175lbs. Then we can improve wile still actually preforming what we set out to do.
I disagree with this comparision. You need X amount of strength to lift Y weights, so if you have X/2 strength, you would do better to lift Y/2 weights, but this builds muscles which are exactly what you need to lift that Y weight. On the other hand, going for 1base allins might improve your mechanics slightly (allthough ever so slightly since it's too easy to do a 1base allin to ever be challenged mechanically), but what you learn isn't usable when you get to a league where players laugh at your horrible play... and there's nothing you can do because you need to switch to a macro build, which suddenly puts a new kind of pressure on your mechanics, which means you'll just fall down again. You can't go from 1base allin to proper macro just off the mechanics you build from 1base allins.
Instead of using cheesy/allin tactics to get wins you don't deserve, it's better to train macro style against AI/with multitask trainers etc, and then go from there. You won't get 200 APM from doing allins, and you don't need 200APM to play macro games. As long as you have good benchmarks, training macro works fine against the AI, and nothing gets your mechanics and APM up like the team liquid multitask trainer.
Yes there are a lot of tools out there that can help build your mechanics. I feel playing 1v1 on ladder is the best way to improve at a lower level. It builds confidence.
Macro games (a game that takes a planed 3rd/4th base and intend to go to the late game) take a lot of mechanics to support it.
1 base allins, 2 base allins, (for Zerg 3 base allins), and macro builds are stepping stones that make learning easer. Sure you can jump straight to macro games. but your going to miss a lot of skill your would have picked up learning the other lower allins.
Allin builds are very viable up to GM. In-fact the top 20 on NA ladder is mostly cheese. At the last MLG we seen Huk use 2 base gateway allins vs zerg to grate effect.
Destiny showed us that mechanics, not strategy and macro builds, are needed to get through lower levels of play when he did his mass queen series
On April 04 2012 23:12 DarK[A] wrote: I feel like all of this information is on TL in one post or another, but thanks for getting it all together.
I'm a victim of this. I'd love to play a longer macro game, but I don't have the mechanics to scout as often as I'd like to (or the knowledge to know for sure what conclusions to draw from the information I acquire). This leads to many early BO losses.
So far, I have a 100% win rate (two matches, lulz) with my 7RR, expanding behind the push (~34 food). Compare this to my typical "safe" BO of 14g14p with speed and 21 expo, where I typically drone too hard and fail to defend my opponent's push... or if I do defend, I typically lose my natural and then end up behind anyway, only to lose a few minutes later.
But you have realized why you are losing (over droning). Losing 10 games in a row due to over droning will net you more in the long run than winning 10 games in a row with an all-in.
As far as mechanics go, I don't agree with the OP. To use your "lifting weights" metaphor...yes, you have to start small and work your way up. However, more repetitions of less weight will give you a better cut, as opposed to more weight which will give you more bulk. In starcraft terms, if you play 10 games of macro (always producing workers, money low, etc.) you are training yourself to have a more solid core gameplay.
Take 2 different builds, for example: 3 gate expand vs. 4 gate
If you 4 gate everygame, yes your handspeedwill improve, because you are repeating this build over and over. The same could be said for 3 gate expand, however. The more you do the 3 gate expand, the faster your hands will get, because you are repeating the build.
Your argument is that some players do not HAVE the handspeed to keep up with a macro build. Most often, this is only the case, because the player is not making a conscious effort to improve their macro. And, most often, they aren't even following a "build plan" they are just winging it. All-in builds have a set structure, so it is easy to go into a game with a set plan.But, macro builds have set plans too, the plan just continues for a longer period of time. TL:DR
Now, back to my main point. Executing an all-in build will not generate the same net improvement of mechanics as macro builds in the LONG TERM. Because, macro builds have set structures too. Players with weaker mechanics just need to have their objectives in mind when going into a game (Day 9 did a daily yesterday on building groupings - this is sort of what I am talking about). Repetition of these macro oriented building grouping builds will not only generate a sort of comfort level in macro play but also help when transitioning into other styles of play. A player comfortable with macro can transition into an all-in build. But, a player who all-in from bronze-diamond will not be able to transition as quickly into a macro style.
On April 04 2012 23:08 Tobberoth wrote: This sounds a bit like Tangs general concept of improving by playing aggressively. That said, why waste time doing allins to learn the basics when you can play macro to learn the basics with more focus on basics which improve your play a lot.
I like to compare it to lifting weights.
Learning the proper way to do a dead lift exercise is similar to learning strategy in SC2. And weights are similar to how hard the build is to do. Mechanics are much like your muscle
So, you may the proper techniques for doing a dead left with 350lbs yet your muscle can't support it. If you keep trying to lift that 350lbs you may improve slowly but we all can tell that it is not the best way to go about building muscle.
And Still, Players have the misguided idea in their heads that using a macro style build is the best way to improve on mechanics. Macro style builds are too demanding on mechanics for most of us to use properly. If we started out doing dead lifts using weights that we can handle like 175lbs. Then we can improve wile still actually preforming what we set out to do.
I disagree with this comparision. You need X amount of strength to lift Y weights, so if you have X/2 strength, you would do better to lift Y/2 weights, but this builds muscles which are exactly what you need to lift that Y weight. On the other hand, going for 1base allins might improve your mechanics slightly (allthough ever so slightly since it's too easy to do a 1base allin to ever be challenged mechanically), but what you learn isn't usable when you get to a league where players laugh at your horrible play... and there's nothing you can do because you need to switch to a macro build, which suddenly puts a new kind of pressure on your mechanics, which means you'll just fall down again. You can't go from 1base allin to proper macro just off the mechanics you build from 1base allins.
Instead of using cheesy/allin tactics to get wins you don't deserve, it's better to train macro style against AI/with multitask trainers etc, and then go from there. You won't get 200 APM from doing allins, and you don't need 200APM to play macro games. As long as you have good benchmarks, training macro works fine against the AI, and nothing gets your mechanics and APM up like the team liquid multitask trainer.
Yes there are a lot of tools out there that can help build your mechanics. I feel playing 1v1 on ladder is the best way to improve at a lower level. It builds confidence.
Macro games (a game that takes a planed 3rd/4th base and intend to go to the late game) take a lot of mechanics to support it.
1 base allins, 2 base allins, (for Zerg 3 base allins), and macro builds are stepping stones that make learning easer. Sure you can jump straight to macro games. but your going to miss a lot of skill your would have picked up learning the other lower allins.
Allin builds are very viable up to GM. In-fact the top 20 on NA ladder is mostly cheese. At the last MLG we seen Huk use 2 base gateway allins vs zerg to grate effect.
Destiny showed us that mechanics, not strategy and macro builds, are needed to get through lower levels of play when he did his mass queen series
Exactly my point, the difference is that you believe 1base allins build the mechanics Destiny is promoting, but they don't. It's like your goal is to get to masters, that's running a marathon. Using 1base allins as training is like going "I can't run a marathon, so I'll run a 200 meters as fast as I can instead". Going for 1base timing push into an attempt at a later game is like running 200 meters as fast as you can, then continuing for as long as possible. Learning macro from the start by proper training is like learning the proper techniques for running which you need for a marathon, then running as far as possible until you get there.
To do a one base allin, the only mechanics you need is to look at your base and put everything down at the right time, you barely need hotkeys. It's not a useful skill to have as you start expanding. You say it builds confidence, but I think that's a load of BS. Winning against bad opponents using 1base allins shouldn't make you confident, it should make you feel ashamed since you're simplifying the game because of your own lack of skill.
On April 04 2012 23:12 DarK[A] wrote: I feel like all of this information is on TL in one post or another, but thanks for getting it all together.
I'm a victim of this. I'd love to play a longer macro game, but I don't have the mechanics to scout as often as I'd like to (or the knowledge to know for sure what conclusions to draw from the information I acquire). This leads to many early BO losses.
So far, I have a 100% win rate (two matches, lulz) with my 7RR, expanding behind the push (~34 food). Compare this to my typical "safe" BO of 14g14p with speed and 21 expo, where I typically drone too hard and fail to defend my opponent's push... or if I do defend, I typically lose my natural and then end up behind anyway, only to lose a few minutes later.
But you have realized why you are losing (over droning). Losing 10 games in a row due to over droning will net you more in the long run than winning 10 games in a row with an all-in.
Well I guess my main reason for losing is failure to scout or have good overlord placement - so I don't know when I need to cut drones and get a round of units out and drop a spine or something. The bane of the Zerg race... drones or units.
I do also try to practice maxing out as quickly as possible on roaches or something, or playing long macro games against AI or a friend.
On April 04 2012 23:19 synd wrote: When I started playing SC2 I didn't have any RTS experience, I came from the CS1.6 scene so my left hand wasn't adjusted to "dancing" around the keyboard buttons. What I did is practice hell of a lot with Darglein's Micro Trainer 1a2a3a4a challenge. In the start I barely managed to keep 200apm for more than 5 minutes but now I can easily keep 500apm for 10minutes or something. I'm still not happy with this but my point is that you need to develop your muscles. Sure, you can be the greatest mind in SC2 but I don't want to mention names so I'll just say that there are a lot of pro gamers who barely have 250apm and can't keep up with most of the multitasking past the 10minute mark.
So, summary: To train your muscles - Darglein's micro trainer - 1a2a3a4a challenge To train your brain - when I try to learn fast a build I play a lot vs AI because it's way faster to recreate a game and you can control the behavior of the AI. When you're confident enough, you play ladder or custom games.
I came from competitive CS 1.6 as well (with some dabbling in Q3/Q4 dueling), so my hand was similarly not adjusted. I found my mouse accuracy was a lot better than other friends who had started playing Starcraft II, likely from the years of twitch aiming needed for Counter-Strike and flick rails found in Q3/Q4 and Quake Live (which I still play).
If you don't mind my asking, what league did you place into initially and what league are you now?
On April 04 2012 23:12 DarK[A] wrote: I feel like all of this information is on TL in one post or another, but thanks for getting it all together.
I'm a victim of this. I'd love to play a longer macro game, but I don't have the mechanics to scout as often as I'd like to (or the knowledge to know for sure what conclusions to draw from the information I acquire). This leads to many early BO losses.
So far, I have a 100% win rate (two matches, lulz) with my 7RR, expanding behind the push (~34 food). Compare this to my typical "safe" BO of 14g14p with speed and 21 expo, where I typically drone too hard and fail to defend my opponent's push... or if I do defend, I typically lose my natural and then end up behind anyway, only to lose a few minutes later.
But you have realized why you are losing (over droning). Losing 10 games in a row due to over droning will net you more in the long run than winning 10 games in a row with an all-in.
Well I guess my main reason for losing is failure to scout or have good overlord placement - so I don't know when I need to cut drones and get a round of units out and drop a spine or something. The bane of the Zerg race... drones or units.
I do also try to practice maxing out as quickly as possible on roaches or something, or playing long macro games against AI or a friend.
So my point is - all-ining every game will not help you learn when to cut drones on 2 bases. Losing over and over and over gain to not cutting drones WILL help you learn when to cut drones. Losing sucks - but everybody loses and you HAVE to lose to improve on a component of your play. If you lost, then you didn't do something that you could've done to win (like cut drones). Play 1 macro style over and over and you will progressively learn how to survive into later parts of the game (and as you learn more about your macro build, your hand speed will improve via repetition). All-ining may help you win, but how does that help you learn when to cut drones in a macro build?
On April 04 2012 23:12 DarK[A] wrote: I feel like all of this information is on TL in one post or another, but thanks for getting it all together.
I'm a victim of this. I'd love to play a longer macro game, but I don't have the mechanics to scout as often as I'd like to (or the knowledge to know for sure what conclusions to draw from the information I acquire). This leads to many early BO losses.
So far, I have a 100% win rate (two matches, lulz) with my 7RR, expanding behind the push (~34 food). Compare this to my typical "safe" BO of 14g14p with speed and 21 expo, where I typically drone too hard and fail to defend my opponent's push... or if I do defend, I typically lose my natural and then end up behind anyway, only to lose a few minutes later.
But you have realized why you are losing (over droning). Losing 10 games in a row due to over droning will net you more in the long run than winning 10 games in a row with an all-in.
As far as mechanics go, I don't agree with the OP. To use your "lifting weights" metaphor...yes, you have to start small and work your way up. However, more repetitions of less weight will give you a better cut, as opposed to more weight which will give you more bulk. In starcraft terms, if you play 10 games of macro (always producing workers, money low, etc.) you are training yourself to have a more solid core gameplay.
Take 2 different builds, for example: 3 gate expand vs. 4 gate
If you 4 gate everygame, yes your handspeedwill improve, because you are repeating this build over and over. The same could be said for 3 gate expand, however. The more you do the 3 gate expand, the faster your hands will get, because you are repeating the build.
Your argument is that some players do not HAVE the handspeed to keep up with a macro build. Most often, this is only the case, because the player is not making a conscious effort to improve their macro. And, most often, they aren't even following a "build plan" they are just winging it. All-in builds have a set structure, so it is easy to go into a game with a set plan.But, macro builds have set plans too, the plan just continues for a longer period of time. .
But I can guarantee you it is not his drone timing. it was his injects, his unit control, the timing on his building. his gas timings. he got supply blocked. All of which is hard for him to spot in a replay and improve on because there is soo much sh*t going on to focus
My argument is with a laid out build order and a single objective. Players can focus on improving their core skills sets.
When you try a build like FFE > 4/5 gate robo > 3rd. You must know how to deal with zerg 1 base cheese, zerg 2 base all-ins roach ling allins, Nydus hydra all ins, proxy hatch burrow roach allins. 200/200 roach timing. Muta timings. Infestor timings, Fast hive play.
That is a bit too much for some one who misses 2 warp ins, wasted sentry energy and get supply blocked once. Doing a 8gate allin would still be changeling but feasible
Tobberoth Your are focusing in too much on the "1 base" part of this. open your eyes and see that their are some very hard to use 3 base allins out there aka Zerg roach allin
On April 04 2012 23:12 DarK[A] wrote: I feel like all of this information is on TL in one post or another, but thanks for getting it all together.
I'm a victim of this. I'd love to play a longer macro game, but I don't have the mechanics to scout as often as I'd like to (or the knowledge to know for sure what conclusions to draw from the information I acquire). This leads to many early BO losses.
So far, I have a 100% win rate (two matches, lulz) with my 7RR, expanding behind the push (~34 food). Compare this to my typical "safe" BO of 14g14p with speed and 21 expo, where I typically drone too hard and fail to defend my opponent's push... or if I do defend, I typically lose my natural and then end up behind anyway, only to lose a few minutes later.
But you have realized why you are losing (over droning). Losing 10 games in a row due to over droning will net you more in the long run than winning 10 games in a row with an all-in.
As far as mechanics go, I don't agree with the OP. To use your "lifting weights" metaphor...yes, you have to start small and work your way up. However, more repetitions of less weight will give you a better cut, as opposed to more weight which will give you more bulk. In starcraft terms, if you play 10 games of macro (always producing workers, money low, etc.) you are training yourself to have a more solid core gameplay.
Take 2 different builds, for example: 3 gate expand vs. 4 gate
If you 4 gate everygame, yes your handspeedwill improve, because you are repeating this build over and over. The same could be said for 3 gate expand, however. The more you do the 3 gate expand, the faster your hands will get, because you are repeating the build.
Your argument is that some players do not HAVE the handspeed to keep up with a macro build. Most often, this is only the case, because the player is not making a conscious effort to improve their macro. And, most often, they aren't even following a "build plan" they are just winging it. All-in builds have a set structure, so it is easy to go into a game with a set plan.But, macro builds have set plans too, the plan just continues for a longer period of time. .
But I can guarantee you it is not his drone timing. it was his injects, his unit control, the timing on his building. his gas timings. he got supply blocked. All of which is hard for him to spot in a replay and improve on because there is soo much sh*t going on to focus
My argument is with a laid out build order and a single objective. Players can focus on improving their core skills sets.
Can't players work on improving their core skill sets in a macro build as well? Everybody has to learn how to deal with everything happening eventually. I see your point that all-ins take away some distractions - but those distractions are main components of a macro style - namely reacting to your opponent.
By all means, focus on the core mechanics in a game. For example, tell yourself "I will not get supply blocked in this game." But, I don't think weaker players should remove the element of reacting to the opponent alltogether just so they are not distracted while trying to improve.
On April 04 2012 23:12 DarK[A] wrote: I feel like all of this information is on TL in one post or another, but thanks for getting it all together.
I'm a victim of this. I'd love to play a longer macro game, but I don't have the mechanics to scout as often as I'd like to (or the knowledge to know for sure what conclusions to draw from the information I acquire). This leads to many early BO losses.
So far, I have a 100% win rate (two matches, lulz) with my 7RR, expanding behind the push (~34 food). Compare this to my typical "safe" BO of 14g14p with speed and 21 expo, where I typically drone too hard and fail to defend my opponent's push... or if I do defend, I typically lose my natural and then end up behind anyway, only to lose a few minutes later.
But you have realized why you are losing (over droning). Losing 10 games in a row due to over droning will net you more in the long run than winning 10 games in a row with an all-in.
As far as mechanics go, I don't agree with the OP. To use your "lifting weights" metaphor...yes, you have to start small and work your way up. However, more repetitions of less weight will give you a better cut, as opposed to more weight which will give you more bulk. In starcraft terms, if you play 10 games of macro (always producing workers, money low, etc.) you are training yourself to have a more solid core gameplay.
Take 2 different builds, for example: 3 gate expand vs. 4 gate
If you 4 gate everygame, yes your handspeedwill improve, because you are repeating this build over and over. The same could be said for 3 gate expand, however. The more you do the 3 gate expand, the faster your hands will get, because you are repeating the build.
Your argument is that some players do not HAVE the handspeed to keep up with a macro build. Most often, this is only the case, because the player is not making a conscious effort to improve their macro. And, most often, they aren't even following a "build plan" they are just winging it. All-in builds have a set structure, so it is easy to go into a game with a set plan.But, macro builds have set plans too, the plan just continues for a longer period of time. .
But I can guarantee you it is not his drone timing. it was his injects, his unit control, the timing on his building. his gas timings. he got supply blocked. All of which is hard for him to spot in a replay and improve on because there is soo much sh*t going on to focus
My argument is with a laid out build order and a single objective. Players can focus on improving their core skills sets.
Can't players work on improving their core skill sets in a macro build as well? Everybody has to learn how to deal with everything happening eventually. I see your point that all-ins take away some distractions - but those distractions are main components of a macro style - namely reacting to your opponent.
By all means, focus on the core mechanics in a game. For example, tell yourself "I will not get supply blocked in this game." But, I don't think weaker players should remove the element of reacting to the opponent alltogether just so they are not distracted while trying to improve.
I've always trained my mechanics in games vs AI. You simple do a standard build you wanna practice and you make an army and you keep moving it without waypoints and clicking on minimap, it forces you to focus on getting your building placements fast and accurate so you can go back to your army fast, you can start just building buildings till you are accurate and fast and then go do the exercise. If you are good at it after some time, you can start doing it with two armies in two different hotkeys.
Atleast thats how I improved my mechanics, focus on small things like building a nexus/hatch/cc fast and build gas fast. The faster you can do it (check any pro stream and you see they master it), the more time you have to focus on the game.
On April 04 2012 23:19 synd wrote: When I started playing SC2 I didn't have any RTS experience, I came from the CS1.6 scene so my left hand wasn't adjusted to "dancing" around the keyboard buttons. What I did is practice hell of a lot with Darglein's Micro Trainer 1a2a3a4a challenge. In the start I barely managed to keep 200apm for more than 5 minutes but now I can easily keep 500apm for 10minutes or something. I'm still not happy with this but my point is that you need to develop your muscles. Sure, you can be the greatest mind in SC2 but I don't want to mention names so I'll just say that there are a lot of pro gamers who barely have 250apm and can't keep up with most of the multitasking past the 10minute mark.
So, summary: To train your muscles - Darglein's micro trainer - 1a2a3a4a challenge To train your brain - when I try to learn fast a build I play a lot vs AI because it's way faster to recreate a game and you can control the behavior of the AI. When you're confident enough, you play ladder or custom games.
I came from competitive CS 1.6 as well (with some dabbling in Q3/Q4 dueling), so my hand was similarly not adjusted. I found my mouse accuracy was a lot better than other friends who had started playing Starcraft II, likely from the years of twitch aiming needed for Counter-Strike and flick rails found in Q3/Q4 and Quake Live (which I still play).
If you don't mind my asking, what league did you place into initially and what league are you now?
When I started I saw ESL Rotterdam's University which greatly helped me. After the first 5 placement matches I got gold with only 3hrs of SC2 experience and then........ I didn't play for 3 months or something and now I'm only plat. Still I believe that if I play more often now as I want to, I could reach masters. Anyway I play daily custom games with masters so I do believe in myself xD
Now again on the topic, I forgot to mention one of the most important things before training, WRISTS HEALTH! Probably everyone knows that there are pro gamers who suffer some sort of carpal tunnel syndrom or repetitive strain injury, so you must do something to protect your wrists. I totally recommend Garin Bader's Finger Gymnastics. The best exercises you can get, besides that it's definitely not scam. After all everybody knows who Garin Bader is and what's he capable off with his hands
I've only ever played standard, fast expand games in my 3 month SC2 career because I believe it gives the best practice fastest. I assume two things: working with more bases is harder than fewer; winning fights with fewer units is more difficult. As a result, I'm literally forced to outplay my opponent in every game, thus developing better macro and micro more quickly as the penalty for messing up is more severe. Working on all-ins and cute strategies against bad opponents early on will only teach you a limited skillset while completely ignoring fundamentals. Furthermore, they promote rote memorization of a build and execution rather than independent thinking and problem solving. I suppose everyone has to pick a rate of learning that suits them, but the more you challenge yourself to do at a time, the faster you learn.
As a side note, I often find myself yearning for very basic practice maps where you can do single actions in a vacuum repeatedly. A good example is the baneling marine splitting map, but it's kind of unique. What about a marine/stalker map? Or a ghost/templar map? Complex games are amalgamations of thousands of tiny aspects and it would be super helpful to be able to extract individual elements for rote practice.
My (plat/diam terran) experience is that allins don't take you further than gold/plat league and they don't teach you much, maybe hotkeys, execution and army control. They start to fail sooner or later (except 1-1-1 TvP and thorship TvZ maybe) and after you move to standard play, you lose even more because your standard play is much worse than average gold leaguer's. You don't know how to scout, harass, pressure, multitask, you don't know timings, counters, you can't read your opponent, you don't see the standard way to victory (that's the worst feeling). Basically, you don't know anything about the game. You can win only by punching your opponent in a weird way and hoping he can't defend. And winning in a straight up half hour battle is much more satisfying. I still do 1-1-1 successfully in TvP (because I hate that matchup) and I can honestly say that I'm not learning anything from it, it's a waste of time.
I think the mindset is in the right place: dont spend all game staying in your base and call it a macro game. You have to be a part of the action at various points in the game or you risk getting overrun.
All in builds? That's just silly. How do you learn to stay on top of your macro while attacking if all your focusing on is the all in. Just practice standard play (like the koreans do) and you'll improve mechanics.
On April 05 2012 02:52 Moosy wrote: All in builds? That's just silly. How do you learn to stay on top of your macro while attacking if all your focusing on is the all in. Just practice standard play (like the koreans do) and you'll improve mechanics.
What's your opinion on something like the 7RR then, which isn't designed to really end the game, but more to force your opponent to spend their money on units? You take an expansion as you move out, and as long as you don't just a-move and make a cost-ineffective attack, you're ahead in econ.
On April 05 2012 02:52 Moosy wrote: All in builds? That's just silly. How do you learn to stay on top of your macro while attacking if all your focusing on is the all in. Just practice standard play (like the koreans do) and you'll improve mechanics.
What's your opinion on something like the 7RR then, which isn't designed to really end the game, but more to force your opponent to spend their money on units? You take an expansion as you move out, and as long as you don't just a-move and make a cost-ineffective attack, you're ahead in econ.
7RR is allin, the whole opening is optimized to getting 7 fast roaches, sacrificing a ton of economy. The expansion is ridiculously late compared to any standard zerg opening, and when you don't do considerable damage with it, you lose. This is why 7RR isn't used in higher leagues, it's decently easy to defend and once defended, it's GG for the zerg. Your opponent doesn't have to spend all his money on units, and even if he does, he started to spend money on units later, which is better than earlier. Zerg works by getting a drone advantage early and living off it since the zerg army is so cost-inefficient. If you lose your 7 roaches and only forced a bunker... yeah, you're going to play from behind the whole game.
On April 04 2012 23:12 DarK[A] wrote: I feel like all of this information is on TL in one post or another, but thanks for getting it all together.
I'm a victim of this. I'd love to play a longer macro game, but I don't have the mechanics to scout as often as I'd like to (or the knowledge to know for sure what conclusions to draw from the information I acquire). This leads to many early BO losses.
So far, I have a 100% win rate (two matches, lulz) with my 7RR, expanding behind the push (~34 food). Compare this to my typical "safe" BO of 14g14p with speed and 21 expo, where I typically drone too hard and fail to defend my opponent's push... or if I do defend, I typically lose my natural and then end up behind anyway, only to lose a few minutes later.
But you have realized why you are losing (over droning). Losing 10 games in a row due to over droning will net you more in the long run than winning 10 games in a row with an all-in.
As far as mechanics go, I don't agree with the OP. To use your "lifting weights" metaphor...yes, you have to start small and work your way up. However, more repetitions of less weight will give you a better cut, as opposed to more weight which will give you more bulk. In starcraft terms, if you play 10 games of macro (always producing workers, money low, etc.) you are training yourself to have a more solid core gameplay.
Take 2 different builds, for example: 3 gate expand vs. 4 gate
If you 4 gate everygame, yes your handspeedwill improve, because you are repeating this build over and over. The same could be said for 3 gate expand, however. The more you do the 3 gate expand, the faster your hands will get, because you are repeating the build.
Your argument is that some players do not HAVE the handspeed to keep up with a macro build. Most often, this is only the case, because the player is not making a conscious effort to improve their macro. And, most often, they aren't even following a "build plan" they are just winging it. All-in builds have a set structure, so it is easy to go into a game with a set plan.But, macro builds have set plans too, the plan just continues for a longer period of time. .
But I can guarantee you it is not his drone timing. it was his injects, his unit control, the timing on his building. his gas timings. he got supply blocked. All of which is hard for him to spot in a replay and improve on because there is soo much sh*t going on to focus
My argument is with a laid out build order and a single objective. Players can focus on improving their core skills sets.
When you try a build like FFE > 4/5 gate robo > 3rd. You must know how to deal with zerg 1 base cheese, zerg 2 base all-ins roach ling allins, Nydus hydra all ins, proxy hatch burrow roach allins. 200/200 roach timing. Muta timings. Infestor timings, Fast hive play.
That is a bit too much for some one who misses 2 warp ins, wasted sentry energy and get supply blocked once. Doing a 8gate allin would still be changeling but feasible
Tobberoth Your are focusing in too much on the "1 base" part of this. open your eyes and see that their are some very hard to use 3 base allins out there aka Zerg roach allin
The 3base roach gameplan is not allin at all, it's a plan with planned responses at all turns. It works by giving you a massive economic advantage, then immediately getting a max army and using your superior economy and numbers to force engagements from the toss and deny thirds. The reason it's not allin is because it doesn't have to do anything, once your attack is done, you have 4 bases and 80 drones, your opponent has 2 bases and has just fought an army of roaches far bigger than his own army. Even if he had miraculous forcefields, he lost a lot of supply, which takes the toss a lot of time to rebuild, the zerg remaxes in seconds. Allins can be blocked and when they are blocked, you lose. The 3base roach can't be blocked, just mitigated, and when that happens, the zerg is still ahead.
I also don't see how the things you listed are hard to see in a replay. You find a gameplan, you train it versus the AI until you have good benchmarks down and know what to do, then you use it against other players and see what happens when you lose. Checking injects is easy, just look at queen energy. Supply blocks are easy to see as well, just look at the supply. Gas timings? Just check how much gas you banked at certain points. The important thing is that if you use a proper macro build, you will lose to all those tactics you mentioned and you will learn what to scout for and how to react... if you do an allin, you will just see the defense of your opponent and learn what opponents can do to make your allin fail, there's nothing you can do to improve on that.
i don't agree with using all-ins as a means to "improve mechanics". At some point the player will realize they can't play a macro game at the level they were all-in'ing at and probably quit the game in frustration. All-ins are good in tournaments when you know your opponent will try a style weak to the specific all-in, and good to know as an ace up your sleeve... but to do all-in's every game will give you a false sense of how good you really are.
The same is said with any build that is auto-pilot and has hard counters (most popular one I can think of is the no gas Spanishiwa-style opening). Once people start realizing the build has holes at specific timings they will compensate by hitting hard at those timings blindly. The build I refer to is very good but you can't use it every game.
On April 05 2012 03:11 RevBubba wrote: i don't agree with using all-ins as a means to "improve mechanics". At some point the player will realize they can't play a macro game at the level they were all-in'ing at and probably quit the game in frustration. All-ins are good in tournaments when you know your opponent will try a style weak to the specific all-in, and good to know as an ace up your sleeve... but to do all-in's every game will give you a false sense of how good you really are.
The same is said with any build that is auto-pilot and has hard counters (most popular one I can think of is the no gas Spanishiwa-style opening). Once people start realizing the build has holes at specific timings they will compensate by hitting hard at those timings blindly. The build I refer to is very good but you can't use it every game.
What are the hard counters to spanishiwa style opening? It's still really popular to get 4 queens and delay gas vs Terran in particular.
i can see how that might be true for practicing the absolute novice in the field of mechanics but the best way to improve overall i think is to do a little bit of everything. just playing defensive macro games won't help you in learning how to execute attacks, won't teach you proper aggressive micro that will allow you to break positions you shouldn't be able to, how to abuse bad positioning, how to properly do multiple attacks at once etc. on the other hand just playing super aggressive like that won't help you learn how to defend, how to defend multiple locations at once, how to scout and react to aggressive builds, how to properly manage a lot of bases and generally bad lategame (also known as the terran syndrome).
overall you have the better win ratio with just playing a defensive safe opening and then playing a normal macro game and playing allins will result in having less than 50% against equally skilled players due to coin flips when they do an aggressive build too and the other portion doing safe play which SHOULD more often then not make you lose but that's not the point here.
On April 05 2012 03:11 RevBubba wrote: i don't agree with using all-ins as a means to "improve mechanics". At some point the player will realize they can't play a macro game at the level they were all-in'ing at and probably quit the game in frustration. All-ins are good in tournaments when you know your opponent will try a style weak to the specific all-in, and good to know as an ace up your sleeve... but to do all-in's every game will give you a false sense of how good you really are.
The same is said with any build that is auto-pilot and has hard counters (most popular one I can think of is the no gas Spanishiwa-style opening). Once people start realizing the build has holes at specific timings they will compensate by hitting hard at those timings blindly. The build I refer to is very good but you can't use it every game.
What are the hard counters to spanishiwa style opening? It's still really popular to get 4 queens and delay gas vs Terran in particular.
basically a ridiculously greedy opening. fast 3 bases and tech without units etc.
On April 05 2012 03:17 willverrecken wrote: basically a ridiculously greedy opening. fast 3 bases and tech without units etc.
How does this hard counter spanishiwa style? Going ice fisher, you have TONS of drones and amazing creep spread, all you have to do is plop down a third, you'll saturate it far faster than your opponent.
I agree with the OP. Beginners should focus on training as few aspects simultaneously as possible as that approach allows more focused and more rapid improvement. Many of the fundamental skills needed to succeed in macro games can be trained more efficiently by doing all ins. For instance, doing a 1 base speedling baneling all in is a perfect exercise not only for your speedling baneling micro but also for the ability to keep up larva injects in intense situations. The same can be said for 1 base 4 gate builds and warp ins. Having just a single base makes clean macro an achievable goal for newer players, whereas in a standard game with many bases, beginners don't stand a chance with keeping up and there's a huge danger of slipping into bad habits such as neglecting control groups, clicking icons instead of using hotkeys or stopping to make workers far too early.
On April 05 2012 02:26 polybios wrote: My (plat/diam terran) experience is that allins don't take you further than gold/plat league and they don't teach you much, maybe hotkeys, execution and army control.
This is completely wrong. I'm honestly completely confused why so many people harbour this misconception. All ins work at any level of play, no matter whether you're in bronze league or in Code S. True, the higher you go, the better people will be at scouting and holding off all ins, but then better players are also able to execute their all ins more cleanly and deceive their opponents more effectively. A 6 pool executed by a bronze leaguer is patheticly weak compared to a master player's 6 pool, which in turn is nowhere close to as strong as a 6 pool performed by DRG.
This is really interesting, and definitely not conventional wisdom. But the conventional wisdom, at least that I've received, is to "macro macro macro". One of the recommended threads is about a player who threw his placement matches and started in bronze. Then he "a-moved stalkers and macroed" into diamond to show that's what low level players need to do.
On April 05 2012 03:21 Drunken.Jedi wrote: I agree with the OP. Beginners should focus on training as few aspects simultaneously as possible as that approach allows more focused and more rapid improvement. Many of the fundamental skills needed to succeed in macro games can be trained more efficiently by doing all ins. For instance, doing a 1 base speedling baneling all in is a perfect exercise not only for your speedling baneling micro but also for the ability to keep up larva injects in intense situations. The same can be said for 1 base 4 gate builds and warp ins. Having just a single base makes clean macro an achievable goal for newer players, whereas in a standard game with many bases, beginners don't stand a chance with keeping up and there's a huge danger of slipping into bad habits such as neglecting control groups, clicking icons instead of using hotkeys or stopping to make workers far too early.
On April 05 2012 02:26 polybios wrote: My (plat/diam terran) experience is that allins don't take you further than gold/plat league and they don't teach you much, maybe hotkeys, execution and army control.
This is completely wrong. I'm honestly completely confused why so many people harbour this misconception. All ins work at any level of play, no matter whether you're in bronze league or in Code S. True, the higher you go, the better people will be at scouting and holding off all ins, but then better players are also able to execute their all ins more cleanly and deceive their opponents more effectively. A 6 pool executed by a bronze leaguer is patheticly weak compared to a master player's 6 pool, which in turn is nowhere close to as strong as a 6 pool performed by DRG.
i support your point but your example is bad i think. there is a lot of difference between a bronze 6pool and master 6pool for sure, but a master players 6pool and drgs probably will be nearly identical because there really isn't much 'magic' you can do with it. its 100% true for other allins though.
On April 05 2012 03:17 willverrecken wrote: basically a ridiculously greedy opening. fast 3 bases and tech without units etc.
How does this hard counter spanishiwa style? Going ice fisher, you have TONS of drones and amazing creep spread, all you have to do is plop down a third, you'll saturate it far faster than your opponent.
hard counter is a bad choice of words i think cause its kinda implying an auto win instead of just getting considerably ahead.
On April 05 2012 03:21 Drunken.Jedi wrote: I agree with the OP. Beginners should focus on training as few aspects simultaneously as possible as that approach allows more focused and more rapid improvement. Many of the fundamental skills needed to succeed in macro games can be trained more efficiently by doing all ins. For instance, doing a 1 base speedling baneling all in is a perfect exercise not only for your speedling baneling micro but also for the ability to keep up larva injects in intense situations. The same can be said for 1 base 4 gate builds and warp ins. Having just a single base makes clean macro an achievable goal for newer players, whereas in a standard game with many bases, beginners don't stand a chance with keeping up and there's a huge danger of slipping into bad habits such as neglecting control groups, clicking icons instead of using hotkeys or stopping to make workers far too early.
On April 05 2012 02:26 polybios wrote: My (plat/diam terran) experience is that allins don't take you further than gold/plat league and they don't teach you much, maybe hotkeys, execution and army control.
This is completely wrong. I'm honestly completely confused why so many people harbour this misconception. All ins work at any level of play, no matter whether you're in bronze league or in Code S. True, the higher you go, the better people will be at scouting and holding off all ins, but then better players are also able to execute their all ins more cleanly and deceive their opponents more effectively. A 6 pool executed by a bronze leaguer is patheticly weak compared to a master player's 6 pool, which in turn is nowhere close to as strong as a 6 pool performed by DRG.
No matter if you're DRG or god himself, 6pool gives you 6 lings, either with a few more coming later, or 6 drones joining in. Even if you individually micro every single unit with 100APM, there's a limit to what you can do with a 6pool.
Now, I agree with you, I roll 6pools at plat level easily but would probably lose if DRG 6pooled me... but that's hardly because DRG has trained 6pooling, and defending the choice to go for cheese because it works when professionals do it is just weird. Allins are the perfect exercise in how to win before skill really enters the fray, just look at people reciting games from bronze/silver... one guy on this forum recently explained how he did a fast 3hatch build vs a protoss, and the protoss went for an early attack and destroyed both the third AND the nat of the zerg... yet the zerg won. How? Because the protoss only knows how to do allins and have no idea how to play once the initial 10 minutes of the game is up and they actually have to use macro.
Good macro gives you the sweetest position of all: Drag the game out, the longer the game lasts, the bigger your advantage becomes. For an allinner, everything is stress, you have to win immediately. I think it's weird to say ling/baneling allins help with injects, how hard can it be to get the few injects down before the game is over? Try injecting 3bases and a macro hatch while defending a terran push, now we're talking skill which actually helps you win games consistently.
people also forget that there is a huge difference between the number of deliberate decisions you make per minute to APM..
APM really istn about hand speed ... most munchkins can hit 200 apm if they want to. Its about executing deliberate decisions ... boxing drones at the start doesn't give you that. Selecting single drones and telling them where to mine rapidly does.
Looking after your joints is really just about body posture. Carpel tunnel and the like is really abotu warming up properly, stopping when tired and having good posture.
You talk to anybody who got it properly and the story is always the same. They ignored pain.
I havent sat down and trained at sc2 ... i have a low apm because i take too long over selcting units and placing buildings or waypointing things.
In guitar people always want to play fast and practise fingerings ... they get really fast... the problem si that their pick end up catching strings or is inefficient and they hit a barrier.
The key to APM in starcraft i suspect is *not* mechanical ... *anyone* with 10 fingers can hit 200 apm. It is fluidity of decision making ... not mentally ' oh i wan tto do x' but its actual execution physically.
So the exercise moving the army about will help ... not because of your mechanics ... but because it forces you to make lots of decisions rapidly.
The other problem i suspect is that peopel have to look at their keyboards to find the keys,
EG in guitar i did some maths once and figured out that in one song i actually play 10 notes a second (google technical difficulties - paul gilbert ... the solo is fast but the run at the end is faster). I CANNOT think that fast or play that fast when counting each note. So hoiw can i do it? Because its a decision to play a pattern. Once it starts it starts and i have nothing more to do with it. So starcraft 2 really doesnt map onto music that easily ... in music you get it to the point where you dont have to think about it (when you play a piece you are a machine preprogrammed to rock - whilst you think about utterly unreleated things) ... unless you are talking about improv ... then its different and a closer analogy because you ahve to think and listen - but even then 80% oif the time you are playing very well rehearsed patterns that you like. They are tool i can pull out to accomplish something musically ... they are decisions. And most of the time you are makgin a decision very few seconds musically because you are thinking ahead and concentrating on crisp clean execution.
so in terms of mental willpower i rekon starcraft is actually harder than playing an instrument. Instruments are technically a lot more challenging sure bt its apm under discussion here.
I learned the basics using the 3 rax guide. I was stuck in low silver because of the usual macro problems. The 3 rax (It's not even all in at that level) gives you clear goal, you focus on your build order, supply and macro. I got better quickly because it forced me to focus on one thing intead of 5. I didn't have any problems when I started to play 'macro' games. If you have learned to macro decently on one base it's not that hard to add bases. You can learn by playing standard but it's much easier to get caught up in wrong patterns and overthinking everything.
I'm sure it doesn't work this way when you're in masters and you try to play macro all of a sudden but for low levels I can recommend finding an easy to execute all in.
On April 05 2012 03:37 kranten wrote: I learned the basics using the 3 rax guide. I was stuck in low silver because of the usual macro problems. The 3 rax (It's not even all in at that level) gives you clear goal, you focus on your build order, supply and macro. I got better quickly because it forced me to focus on one thing intead of 5. I didn't have any problems when I started to play 'macro' games. If you have learned to macro decently on one base it's not that hard to add bases. You can learn by playing standard but it's much easier to get caught up in wrong patterns and overthinking everything.
I'm sure it doesn't work this way when you're in masters and you try to play macro all of a sudden but for low levels I can recommend finding an easy to execute all in.
3rax isn't allin, you can easily get an expansion as you move out and unlike a zerg, a terran can afford to delay expansions because of mules. Sure, if you win off the first push every game, you're not going to be learning all that much, but it's definitely a gameplan which can lead to a proper macro game.
When I wanted to try lower leagues and used a smurf, I won against top silvers easily using 3rax -> 3base, only building marines the whole time. It's a build where you can benefit from macro the longer the game goes on, it doesn't get to a point where you attack or lose.
On April 05 2012 03:28 willverrecken wrote: i support your point but your example is bad i think. there is a lot of difference between a bronze 6pool and master 6pool for sure, but a master players 6pool and drgs probably will be nearly identical because there really isn't much 'magic' you can do with it. its 100% true for other allins though.
On April 05 2012 03:29 Tobberoth wrote: No matter if you're DRG or god himself, 6pool gives you 6 lings, either with a few more coming later, or 6 drones joining in. Even if you individually micro every single unit with 100APM, there's a limit to what you can do with a 6pool.
I chose the example of 6 pool specifically because it's such a simple build. However, even so the differences in skill level are quite apparent. I don't know if you've ever played against a really well executed 6 pool. I have and the differences are very noticable. Obviously the skill difference will have a much greater impact with a more elaborate build, I never disputed that.
On April 05 2012 03:29 Tobberoth wrote:Now, I agree with you, I roll 6pools at plat level easily but would probably lose if DRG 6pooled me... but that's hardly because DRG has trained 6pooling, and defending the choice to go for cheese because it works when professionals do it is just weird.
In that part of my post, I did not defend the choice to cheese, I merely asserted that all ins work at any skill level.
On April 05 2012 03:29 Tobberoth wrote: Allins are the perfect exercise in how to win before skill really enters the fray, just look at people reciting games from bronze/silver... one guy on this forum recently explained how he did a fast 3hatch build vs a protoss, and the protoss went for an early attack and destroyed both the third AND the nat of the zerg... yet the zerg won. How? Because the protoss only knows how to do allins and have no idea how to play once the initial 10 minutes of the game is up and they actually have to use macro.
The bolded part is a baseless accusation. All ins undoubtedly require skill to execute. I don't see how your anecdote is relevant at all.
On April 05 2012 03:21 Drunken.Jedi wrote: All ins work at any level of play, no matter whether you're in bronze league or in Code S.
There is big difference between "all ins work at any level" and "all ins will improve your play steadily up to master level"
Well yes, that's true. So what? The statement you quoted above was in repsonse to someone asserting that all ins only work on lower levels.
Nevertheless, the statement "all ins will improve your play steadily up to master level" is true as well. In fact, all inning is the easiest way to get to master level.
On April 05 2012 02:52 Moosy wrote: All in builds? That's just silly. How do you learn to stay on top of your macro while attacking if all your focusing on is the all in. Just practice standard play (like the koreans do) and you'll improve mechanics.
What's your opinion on something like the 7RR then, which isn't designed to really end the game, but more to force your opponent to spend their money on units? You take an expansion as you move out, and as long as you don't just a-move and make a cost-ineffective attack, you're ahead in econ.
7RR is allin, the whole opening is optimized to getting 7 fast roaches, sacrificing a ton of economy. The expansion is ridiculously late compared to any standard zerg opening, and when you don't do considerable damage with it, you lose. This is why 7RR isn't used in higher leagues, it's decently easy to defend and once defended, it's GG for the zerg. Your opponent doesn't have to spend all his money on units, and even if he does, he started to spend money on units later, which is better than earlier. Zerg works by getting a drone advantage early and living off it since the zerg army is so cost-inefficient. If you lose your 7 roaches and only forced a bunker... yeah, you're going to play from behind the whole game.
I dunno, I'm only silver and I was able to force a gg from my one friend who is a plat T. Killed off early 'rines on my way there, then broke down his wall and forced a lift off to another base. He built some banshees and tried to counter but I saw the starport and got an extra queen.
Then we played a regular game and he ran me over with hellions because I didn't scout it
EDIT: No, I don't consider plat to be a "higher league". I just think that yes, it does force most people to overreact. And if it's not scouted, then it does an absolute ton of damage. (see Leenock's 7RR vs NaNi)
On April 05 2012 03:59 Drunken.Jedi wrote: The bolded part is a baseless accusation. All ins undoubtedly require skill to execute. I don't see how your anecdote is relevant at all.
The skill required to pull of a trained allin is nothing compared to the skill required to be good enough with a standard safe build to win consistently with it. Anyone can learn an allin and pull it off and since it hits early, there's little time to make mistakes. Classic brood war quote, still true today: "The longer the game, the higher the chance the better player will win".
Now, making an allin work against a good player, that's something else, such as DRG using a 6pool. 6pool itself is horrible, to make it work against good players, your micro needs to be fantastic. Hardly something worth training compared to consistent standard play though, who wants to be known as the guy who does a fantastic 6pool but sucks at everything else?
On April 05 2012 03:21 Drunken.Jedi wrote: All ins work at any level of play, no matter whether you're in bronze league or in Code S.
There is big difference between "all ins work at any level" and "all ins will improve your play steadily up to master level"
Well yes, that's true. So what? The statement you quoted above was in repsonse to someone asserting that all ins only work on lower levels.
It was response to me and I did not claim all ins only work on lower levels. I claimed only allining stops working in gold/plat and doesn't bring any improvement, you nitpicked one sentence.
On April 05 2012 04:07 Drunken.Jedi wrote: Nevertheless, the statement "all ins will improve your play steadily up to master level" is true as well. In fact, all inning is the easiest way to get to master level.
Pls tell me TvT all in which gets you to masters, I really haven't heard of any.
On April 05 2012 03:59 Drunken.Jedi wrote: The bolded part is a baseless accusation. All ins undoubtedly require skill to execute. I don't see how your anecdote is relevant at all.
The skill required to pull of a trained allin is nothing compared to the skill required to be good enough with a standard safe build to win consistently with it. Anyone can learn an allin and pull it off and since it hits early, there's little time to make mistakes. Classic brood war quote, still true today: "The longer the game, the higher the chance the better player will win".
Now, making an allin work against a good player, that's something else, such as DRG using a 6pool. 6pool itself is horrible, to make it work against good players, your micro needs to be fantastic. Hardly something worth training compared to consistent standard play though, who wants to be known as the guy who does a fantastic 6pool but sucks at everything else?
On April 05 2012 03:21 Drunken.Jedi wrote: All ins work at any level of play, no matter whether you're in bronze league or in Code S.
There is big difference between "all ins work at any level" and "all ins will improve your play steadily up to master level"
Well yes, that's true. So what? The statement you quoted above was in repsonse to someone asserting that all ins only work on lower levels.
It was response to me and I did not claim all ins only work on lower levels. I claimed only allining stops working in gold/plat and doesn't bring any improvement, you nitpicked one sentence.
On April 05 2012 04:07 Drunken.Jedi wrote: Nevertheless, the statement "all ins will improve your play steadily up to master level" is true as well. In fact, all inning is the easiest way to get to master level.
Pls tell me TvT all in which gets you to masters, I really haven't heard of any.
2rax + SCV all in works at all levels vs. all races when executed properly. People have gotten to high masters doing nothing but. Same with 6 pool and 4 gate for the other 2 races.
On April 05 2012 03:21 Drunken.Jedi wrote: All ins work at any level of play, no matter whether you're in bronze league or in Code S.
There is big difference between "all ins work at any level" and "all ins will improve your play steadily up to master level"
Well yes, that's true. So what? The statement you quoted above was in repsonse to someone asserting that all ins only work on lower levels.
It was response to me and I did not claim all ins only work on lower levels. I claimed only allining stops working in gold/plat and doesn't bring any improvement, you nitpicked one sentence.
On April 05 2012 04:07 Drunken.Jedi wrote: Nevertheless, the statement "all ins will improve your play steadily up to master level" is true as well. In fact, all inning is the easiest way to get to master level.
Pls tell me TvT all in which gets you to masters, I really haven't heard of any.
2rax + SCV all in works at all levels vs. all races when executed properly. People have gotten to high masters doing nothing but. Same with 6 pool and 4 gate for the other 2 races.
On April 05 2012 03:59 Drunken.Jedi wrote: The bolded part is a baseless accusation. All ins undoubtedly require skill to execute. I don't see how your anecdote is relevant at all.
The skill required to pull of a trained allin is nothing compared to the skill required to be good enough with a standard safe build to win consistently with it. Anyone can learn an allin and pull it off and since it hits early, there's little time to make mistakes. Classic brood war quote, still true today: "The longer the game, the higher the chance the better player will win".
Now, making an allin work against a good player, that's something else, such as DRG using a 6pool. 6pool itself is horrible, to make it work against good players, your micro needs to be fantastic. Hardly something worth training compared to consistent standard play though, who wants to be known as the guy who does a fantastic 6pool but sucks at everything else?
The skill required to win with an all in depends mostly on the skill of your opponent. The same is true for succeeding in a "normal" game.
Yes, the skill ceiling is much higher in standard play and skill differences have a more severe effect in longer games, I never disputed that. However, the skill ceiling for all ins is still high enough for skill differences to be meaningful and important. Even pro players don't execute even the simplest all ins perfectly.
On April 05 2012 03:21 Drunken.Jedi wrote: All ins work at any level of play, no matter whether you're in bronze league or in Code S.
There is big difference between "all ins work at any level" and "all ins will improve your play steadily up to master level"
Well yes, that's true. So what? The statement you quoted above was in repsonse to someone asserting that all ins only work on lower levels.
It was response to me and I did not claim all ins only work on lower levels. I claimed only allining stops working in gold/plat and doesn't bring any improvement, you nitpicked one sentence.
Yes and there you once again say that "only allining stops working in gold/plat" which is simply not true. And someone who's able to execute two or three all ins very well won't be gold or plat for long.
On April 05 2012 04:07 Drunken.Jedi wrote: Nevertheless, the statement "all ins will improve your play steadily up to master level" is true as well. In fact, all inning is the easiest way to get to master level.
Pls tell me TvT all in which gets you to masters, I really haven't heard of any.
Not sure on TvT since I don't play Terran and don't really follow the matchup closely. However I can tell you that as a mid to high master Zerg player, I have from time to time done some rather sloppily executed marine + scv all ins on ladder with reasonably good success. While TvT was certainly the hardest matchup with that, I'm still quite confident that you could get to Master with that.
Telling a low level player to just macro better is kinda like telling a 4 year old "i" before "e" except after "c". When they are still saying "men-opee" for "n" "m" "o" "p" in the alphabet.
Sure a Plat league player can try to do that FFE with sentry / immortal to take his 3rd vs zerg's 200 roach push. but what is the point if you miss 2 warpins, forget to get +2, and make the robo 2 minuets late any ways?
SO! our plat league player tells his self " I will get my robo on time, I will check my forge for my +2, and warp in every time. NEXT GAME!!!" and then next game wile focusing of getting his warp ins right he gets supply blocked twice and cuts 4 probes. Then his 3rd is 2 mins late and he still loses.
On April 05 2012 03:11 RevBubba wrote: i don't agree with using all-ins as a means to "improve mechanics". At some point the player will realize they can't play a macro game at the level they were all-in'ing at and probably quit the game in frustration. All-ins are good in tournaments when you know your opponent will try a style weak to the specific all-in, and good to know as an ace up your sleeve... but to do all-in's every game will give you a false sense of how good you really are.
The same is said with any build that is auto-pilot and has hard counters (most popular one I can think of is the no gas Spanishiwa-style opening). Once people start realizing the build has holes at specific timings they will compensate by hitting hard at those timings blindly. The build I refer to is very good but you can't use it every game.
What are the hard counters to spanishiwa style opening? It's still really popular to get 4 queens and delay gas vs Terran in particular.
If you are known to do a gasless opening, a strong 1 base medivac / elevator opening will tear a gasless zerg to pieces, if played correctly. I am talking about the 1 base marine/hellion elevator play with fast medivac, you won't have speed on zerglings and you won't be able to defend this with just queens on most maps.
basically get used to making workers all the time while building buildings and always having something producing from them. If a building cannot continually produce(one way or another) you dont have the eco (in one way or another) so either expand or trade. If other way round and you cant spend resources, create a means to dump the cash!
Simples, these tips carried me from bz to gold in about a month!
What i have found tho is people talk and talk and talk about what should be happening but give no viable way of practicing it, all i hear is play moar games, i dont feel this is the answer as when you get into a game you get right back and into what you know. The best thing to do i found is get into a community/sc2clan/team and get a practice partner to do some quirky challenges with youmy personal favourite for probes and pylons is one must be building at all times, if money gets more than the 150 mins you spend on a structure and continue till you have constant production on this cycle
probe pylon (much harder for zerg to do this btw but i have methods) Check cash (is there a probe pylon building, if not build) (if money is over 150 and a probe and pylon is building build a rax/gate) When this is build and pp are building and you are over 150 build units), if 1 unit is building and a pp are building and your money isgetting out of control, build as many structures to keep mins below 400.
When workers get to 24 on on base, build expansion
Rinse and repeat
Its a drill i saw a dude do on a stream and it really does get you looking at whats building and checking your cash
EPT
