EPT[G] PvZ 7-gate Immortal +1/+1 - Page 2
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monk
United States8476 Posts
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RemarK
United States452 Posts
On March 31 2012 12:17 NrGmonk wrote: wow, way2hate Oops totally missed your post =) must have been the blue or something. I'll look into that other build, that seems like a common suggestion (to drop the +1 armor, get an extra immortal, and hit faster). And as per your and Tang's suggestion, I'll be updating OP later tonight with robo benchmark timings | ||
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Protossking
Australia103 Posts
On March 31 2012 09:48 NrGmonk wrote: I have to agree with Voirdire here and disagree with cecil and tang. [list][*]The earliest you can hit with immortals, +2, and blink is 12minutes. If you hit after 11 minutes without early pressure, any zerg will be free to drone to 60-65 and then mass units to hold this off. Absolutely, and in addition to this the zerg can usually tech to infestors in time for a 13-14minute attack, in which case your sentries (your most crucial units tbh) will die very quickly to fungles and your stalkers won't be able to blink. I am on RemarK's team and I'm sure he's heard me bragging about how good this build is in our clan channel. xD. I want to discuss map dependancy with this build though, I've tried it on lots of maps and if the zerg can get a good surround this build is generally NOT that strong unless you have brilliant forcefields, which is hard when on creep. I wouldn't recommend this on Tal'Darim or Shakuras Plateau, it can work okay on Antiga Shipyard. But there is one map which I have NOT lost with this build, and it's cloud kingdom. ![[image loading]](http://i367.photobucket.com/albums/oo115/pezzaperry/576px-ESV_Cloud_Kingdom.jpg) now excuse my terrible paint skills, but the red arrow signifies where you want your army to go on cloud kingdom, and the brown dots is a hatchery. The blue dots are forcefields. If you get into a situation where you can use the hatchery with your forcefields, just tell your opponent to get out (jokes lol but still its GG). This positioning is so good for a sentry heavy army, just remember you have spare forcefields, so don't be scared of being baited out with forcefields you have more than enough. Use them, and not sparingly. OH and I almost forgot, RemarK, build an observer before your first immortal, scout with it and return back with it in your army. If he has burrow + movement and you don't have an observer you're completely screwed, so add that into your OP. | ||
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Protossking
Australia103 Posts
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VoirDire
Sweden1923 Posts
On March 31 2012 16:40 Protossking wrote: edit: doublepost Sorry for the OT but... double post 1 hour later? How did you manage to do that!? :D The session must have timed out multiple times by then. | ||
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Wochtulka
Czech Republic66 Posts
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
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Arcanefrost
Belgium1257 Posts
In idra vs feast on antiga at iem feast hits a 2immo timing with +1 and a prism off 3 gas, the slight variation of it I use: Ffe Sentry + wg + third gas 6:00 Robo +1 attack and observer 7:00 6 gates Cb 3 immos then prism, go up to 8-10 sentries. 4th gas as you move out. Mass stalker warpin, allcb to gates. rely on proxy pylons for warpin till prism gets there. I think the faster you hit the better, because if the zerg stops at 60 drones and makes pure units your slightly later version has a lot less chance of working. As monk mentioned sage also did a similar build and I personally like his variation better too. I think hiding the immortals in the prism is quite silly because he wants mass roachling with hydras if he has a den vs both a gateway and a gateway immo push. Lings are actually terrible vs this because of the infinity forcefields. Also with a delayed timing like this I think it's absolutely essential to have an obs, otherwise you'll lose to everyone who has got burrow. You can also use it to scout, so it's really worth it imo. | ||
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Olsson
Sweden931 Posts
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Warzilla
Czech Republic311 Posts
On March 31 2012 19:15 VoirDire wrote: Sorry for the OT but... double post 1 hour later? How did you manage to do that!? :D The session must have timed out multiple times by then. Not if you got autologin checked | ||
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Baselcs
Belgium12 Posts
Whenever I see it coming and I know I can't hold it (I never can) I semi engage to bait FF's, keep making hydra/ling, keep baiting FFs, don't bother defending my 3rd, immediately start a different 3rd and finally engage when he comes in my natural and I hope to hold it. Suffices to say that I have a low win % vs. this push, I always scout it perfectly, I know exactly what's coming, but whatever tactic I use, I just fail. Edit: Let's discuss compositions. Roach/Ling/Baneling drops. Baneling drops should work vs. these sentry heavy compositions, no aoe to take out all the lings? Roach/Ling. This build seems to hard counter roach/ling. Hydra/Ling. Fares better vs. immortals and FFs, I think it should be the strongest, but it doesn't work. Roach/Ling/Infestor. More lings, less roaches compared to roach ling. I never tried this, I hate infestors. Muta/Ling. No. Roach/Hydra. I rather use the gas for hydras, all leftover minerals for lings. Any better opinions? Has anyone explored bane drops? Did I forget a composition? Is there a weakness in this build if you scout it at ~7 minutes? | ||
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syriuszonito
Poland332 Posts
As for how to hold it as zerg, i think that its not the army composition that is the most important thing but flawless macro and good engagements. Cut the drones at 60 (8:00), mass roach/ling with some upg going on, make sure you are not floating on minerals and injecting perfectly and you should have enough to stop it. | ||
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alQahira
United States511 Posts
http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?s=36f116b1d710a09f5a324c3f660042c6&game=33&show=details&id=256238 I put a few of the timings Elfi did into a yabot build order. Link is here: http://www.sc2builds.com/build-orders/protoss/9664.aspx The assimilator timings get missed up. Those are the timings for the 3rd and 4th, but when you build your 1st and 2nd it counts them as done. | ||
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Baselcs
Belgium12 Posts
On March 31 2012 21:02 syriuszonito wrote: By far the most disgusting toss all in. As for how to hold it as zerg, i think that its not the army composition that is the most important thing but flawless macro and good engagements. Cut the drones at 60 (8:00), mass roach/ling with some upg going on, make sure you are not floating on minerals and injecting perfectly and you should have enough to stop it. Flawless macro always works until top GM, but this build is special, assume normal macro on both parties. This composition can actually handle a 200/200 army (not that you'd have that) of roach/ling when the engagement is correct. To beat this build you actually need the right composition with the right engagement, no matter how big your army is. This all-in seems to be the hard counter to roach/ling. | ||
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syriuszonito
Poland332 Posts
On March 31 2012 21:09 Baselcs wrote: Flawless macro always works until top GM, but this build is special, assume normal macro on both parties. This composition can actually handle a 200/200 army (not that you'd have that) of roach/ling when the engagement is correct. To beat this build you actually need the right composition with the right engagement, no matter how big your army is. This all-in seems to be the hard counter to roach/ling. With normal macro on both sides zerg loses I am afraid, thats why I find it digusting. I know that this composition can handle a 200/200 army, the trick is to efficiently trade until toss runs out of forcefields. You should start as soon as toss leaves the base (his army is gonna be relatively small compared to yours) and never stop. Few spines on third gonna help a bit as well. | ||
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Baselcs
Belgium12 Posts
On March 31 2012 21:17 syriuszonito wrote: With normal macro on both sides zerg loses I am afraid, thats why I find it digusting. I know that this composition can handle a 200/200 army, the trick is to efficiently trade until toss runs out of forcefields. You should start as soon as toss leaves the base (his army is gonna be relatively small compared to yours) and never stop. Few spines on third gonna help a bit as well. But this build works because it can beat 200/200 roach/ling. It forces an engagement at the 3rd, kills the army with good FFs and then easily handles all reinforcement. I don't think some spines are going to work vs this. The solution is constantly baiting forcefields yes, but there are so many sentries and once he's at your area around your third, he only needs a few forcefields anymore. | ||
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Chandra
United States123 Posts
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Olsson
Sweden931 Posts
On April 01 2012 03:22 Chandra wrote: Apologies if this is a stupid question, but would it be possible to use this build as a basic framework to take a reasonably quick third if I built 1-2 less gates and didn't cut probes? I've been looking for a non-Stargate opener to use to take a third in PvZ, but most of the things I've tried haven't yielded great success versus standard roach ling spam (low-ish masters MMR). It seems like the quick immortals and opportunity for possible warp prism harass could provide an opening. Or would I be better off using another build entirely? Dependant on the map, absolutely. Long ranged units and alot of forcefields, you can very well expand instead of pushing. I've offraced abit at masters level and when I see the zerg having reacted well enough I just back off to expo and since he had to go hydras to counter it it's very hard for him to be aggresive against my third. | ||
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Astro-Penguin
554 Posts
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Baselcs
Belgium12 Posts
On April 01 2012 03:22 Chandra wrote: Apologies if this is a stupid question, but would it be possible to use this build as a basic framework to take a reasonably quick third if I built 1-2 less gates and didn't cut probes? I've been looking for a non-Stargate opener to use to take a third in PvZ, but most of the things I've tried haven't yielded great success versus standard roach ling spam (low-ish masters MMR). It seems like the quick immortals and opportunity for possible warp prism harass could provide an opening. Or would I be better off using another build entirely? This in fact is one of the standard frameworks to take a 3rd. | ||
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Thanks for taking the time to write this up! Have you considered attacking a minute later with blink and +2? I feel the combination of those two is much more effective than a slightly earlier attack and +1 armor.
