EPTThank you.
[G] PvZ 7-gate Immortal +1/+1 - Page 5
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Rimak
Denmark434 Posts
Thank you. | ||
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SmuZ
Romania45 Posts
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Suitor
Sweden3 Posts
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Rivkeh
United States58 Posts
1.) 11 Minute Timing - I see a lot of really cool suggestions on variations of the build including zealot pressure, going warp prism first, etc. My issue with most of these is that the timing is incredibly important, you'll get away with hitting the push as much as a minute late a lot of times, but if you watch the replay you'll be able to see how Z has a chance to get back into the game if they're on top of their form. While you can have +2/blink/carriers/whatever by 12 minutes, Z has a glaring weakness at the 11 minute mark (on 3 base), and thats too tempting not to exploit. 2.) Scouting - Hiding a few probes is your only way of confirming the 3 base build (unless Z obliges in immediately dropping all 3 hatches right in front of you), or to give you time to react to any deviations. Here's a few of my thoughts: a.)The probe needs to confirm that the natural hatch actually gets down in order to not get Leenock'd by a canceled hatch into 7-10 roaches at your door. If Z is doing this appropriately, I'm not sure if you can hold without having to shove a probe into their main to scout the early Roach Warren, which would obviously be dicey, but at Diamond level all you need to do is confirm the hatch built. b.) After a 13/14 forge I send the probe that built it out onto the map into a hidey hole far from the base and way out of ling/overlord/watchtower sight, this is important because they get out before lings should, allowing you to actually hide instead of just hoping to get past the lings and that your first scout didn't die. This second probe can absolutely confirm the 3rd, I prefer to use the first scout if possible, but the second is there to confirm it. c.) If Z takes his darn time putting down the 3rd, chrono a sentry once immediately, then drop 2 cannons instead of gates, I think you can keep going for your robo first (before gates). If they still havent dropped their 3rd within another minute, give your sentry production another chrono. If Z drops his 3rd late, you're still at least even, if not ahead with the money wasted on cannons (you'll want them later anyways to prevent counters aimed to delay your push) so no worries. 3.) Push to win or transition out? - the attack is sentry dependent, and theres not a lot of ways to run through 6-8 sentries' energy before the P can get the 3rd. So once you've gotten the 3rd down (original post is pretty well detailed on the tactics of how to nail it) the question is push or transition out? This really is a matter of your sentries and his army, if he manages to drain your sentries without you severely crippling his roach count pushing up hill to the 2nd can be really risky. For this reason, once I'm sure I'm going to get the 3rd I immediately drop a Robo Bay for colossus follow up as seen in the 3rd replay in the original post, Remark vs Rok, and I start producing probes again, allowing for a transition into a 3rd during my colossus push. The biggest reason I love this push is while it is an All-In (it must inflict long term damage or you are so far behind you'll never win vs an equally skilled opponent), it is easy to transition out of if you kill the 3rd into another timing push (I'm looking at your colossus) or standard economic play because unlike a lot of other builds you're already invested into all the sim city required to deny multi prong attacks on your nat while your army defends the 3rd. Finally, some musings on what Z can do - I'm not sure if stephano roaches will work, as this army comp eats roaches, and while stephano style has some sick production, proper control of 24-32 force fields or more is a pretty horrible situation for roaches to be in if you spread them out optimally. The only other option seems to be dropping a macro hatch immediately, constant threat of the P army, trading roaches/lings for forcefields as efficiently as possible without losing your mob, then evacuating the 3rd once the P finally gets to it. Once you lose the 3rd you need the macro hatch in order to keep up optimal production. Hopefully by this point they won't have enough force fields forcing P to turn around or lose their army. If Z can force P back without losing all their drones they can quickly drop the hatch again, scout the Protoss' follow up and ready to either crush a follow up push or match an expansion by taking a 4th and tech to the ever obnoxious broods Another option would be to allocate 16~ roaches to counter attacking forcing the P to either come back and defend, or to leave a full energy sentry behind plus possible warp ins in their base, either way you can still run away from P and you've denied 4 force fields for no losses (and have roaches behind the P army ready to flank and harry them), and potentially greatly delaying the push allowing you to have a maxed roach army and some banked resources for remaxing. In closing, thanks so much to soLremarK for the guide, and I'm eagerly waiting to see what Z comes up with in response. | ||
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Salivanth
Australia1071 Posts
Chronoboosts: All on Probes until 44 probes. You should use 12 Chronoboosts on Probes if you scout their third in time and don't need a CB on a Sentry. Then 3 CB's on +1 Armor. When +1 Armor is complete, CB gateways. Timings: (This assumes a double scout) Core: 4:35 Robo: 6:15 Third and fourth gas: 7:00 +1 Armor: 7:40 4th-6th Gate: 8:20. (He threw up the 7th gate slightly later...I don't know why, maybe to deny scouting.) Prism finishes: 10:05 Macro benchmarks: 44 probes and 2 Sentries at 7:30 44 probes, 14 Stalkers, 6 Sentries, 2 Immortals, 1 Warp Prism at 10:30. (Outside opponent's third.) So if you don't have 44 workers by 7:30, your problem is economy. If you don't have the 50 army supply by 10:30, your problem is production. Hope this helps! | ||
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Zegz
United States10 Posts
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Clarity_nl
Netherlands6826 Posts
On April 23 2012 21:07 SmuZ wrote: As a zerg I completly crush everything that doesn't includes void ray or colossi or both You're amazing.  Nice guide! Hope to face this on ladder a bit. I think the chance of success for this build is very map dependent. Then again I guess all all-ins are. | ||
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Zegz
United States10 Posts
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belatube
United States27 Posts
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Canyarion
Netherlands14 Posts
Any tips vs this Zerg build? I'm personally thinking of going for a 3rd and keep defending my bases while I tech to Blink/Colossi. | ||
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selander
Sweden9 Posts
On May 02 2012 07:23 Canyarion wrote: Hm I've lost my last 3 PvZs because Zerg was getting maxed around 12 mins (Stephano style). My push did too little; I ran out of FFs before I did enough damage. Any tips vs this Zerg build? I'm personally thinking of going for a 3rd and keep defending my bases while I tech to Blink/Colossi. Link replay's, I'm interested in seeing zergs defending it. Your push should hit before 12min btw. | ||
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Zheryn
Sweden3653 Posts
On April 25 2012 06:54 Rivkeh wrote:Z has a glaring weakness at the 11 minute mark (on 3 base), and thats too tempting not to exploit. What do you mean by glaring weakness at 11 min? If any time, 11-11:30 is the time a 3base hatch would WANT to be attacked cause that's the point where zergs gets maxed out. Attacks at 7-9 min are way more brutal since that's when Zergs haven't starrted unit production yet. | ||
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Belha
Italy2850 Posts
I've seen yesterday Sase trying immortal sentry timing and he got crushed the 3 games i saw him using it, all 3 by the same Z response. | ||
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Sated
England4983 Posts
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DarKcS
Australia1237 Posts
On May 07 2012 13:00 Belha wrote: This is not working anymore at high levels. Korean Z's now know how to stop this, and is pretty simple. I've seen yesterday Sase trying immortal sentry timing and he got crushed the 3 games i saw him using it, all 3 by the same Z response. Really? What response. | ||
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Sated
England4983 Posts
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Brolettuce
United States48 Posts
instead of chronoboosting the probes so much, i chrono out 4 immortals instead of two and also warp gate ( should i not chrono warp gate, and instead chrono probes? ), so that spine walls and roaches have absolute no effect to me.. i feel like its soso much stronger, but the only problem to this is that i get recked by muta tech if he has it ( i move out @ around 11 i believe instead of 10-10:30 ) i only have about 10 stalkers when i move out instead of your 20. also when i move out i get a obs etc.. do you think this is viable? im a 800 pt masters atm and it has been working very well on every map, but the only time ive lost is against people who get mutas etc, cuz my stalker count isnt as high, even though i try to warp in only stalkers, except when i see alot of lings, but thats usually when they have mutas so i get messed up | ||
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Kotschmonaut
Germany117 Posts
would like to know aswell... | ||
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Fossa
United States67 Posts
On March 31 2012 09:48 NrGmonk wrote: I have to agree with Voirdire here and disagree with cecil and tang.
I've tried both this build and another version that Sage used vs a TSL zerg in this GSTL and I have to say that I prefer that one much better. The OP shold take a look at that one. The difference between that build and this one are as follows: Sage opens some variation of zealot/stalker/stalker for initial gateway pressure then follows it up with a warp prism for warp prism pressure. He then goes for obs then 3 immortals off of 3 gas and doesn't get +1 armor. I feel it's a better, more lean build, because you put on more pressure earlier and get 3 immortals instead of 2, because you skip the first sentry thus allowing you to build your robo faster. The disadvantage is that you have less sentry energy and don't have +1 armor in your push. Finally, I think it might be useful if you benchmark all the robo timings: when you drop the robo, when each of the robo units start and come out. When I was working on this build, I found that was very helpful. Personally I do a 4 gate +1 zealot timing attack, and transition into a 7 gate +2 blink stalker immortal allin. After the attack, I warp in sentries, start my upgrades, get immortals and add 3 gates. | ||
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NotoriousBig
Germany301 Posts
it´s so superstrong, but you need the right timing or the zerg will kill you with ease. | ||
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Thanks for taking the time to write this up! Have you considered attacking a minute later with blink and +2? I feel the combination of those two is much more effective than a slightly earlier attack and +1 armor.
