EPTa) fast muta or fast infestor
b) the Z plays a counter-heavy style and has a huge group of roaches outside of your base just waiting for u to move out. wanna basetrade with the zerg? not rly ^^
head to head vs roachling, its a great strat.
[G] PvZ 7-gate Immortal +1/+1 - Page 3
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KalWarkov
Germany4126 Posts
a) fast muta or fast infestor b) the Z plays a counter-heavy style and has a huge group of roaches outside of your base just waiting for u to move out. wanna basetrade with the zerg? not rly ^^ head to head vs roachling, its a great strat. | ||
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CrazyF1r3f0x
United States2120 Posts
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Senjai
Canada66 Posts
 I've seen you use it on your stream and it is definitely potent. | ||
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Orek
1665 Posts
On March 31 2012 21:03 alQahira wrote: This is very close to a timing attack elfi did vs Stephano in game 1 of the round of 8 of Assembly winter. He got a third immortal, and a ton of sentires. Did some fake warp prism harass with the sentries. http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?s=36f116b1d710a09f5a324c3f660042c6&game=33&show=details&id=256238 I put a few of the timings Elfi did into a yabot build order. Link is here: http://www.sc2builds.com/build-orders/protoss/9664.aspx The assimilator timings get missed up. Those are the timings for the 3rd and 4th, but when you build your 1st and 2nd it counts them as done. Well written OP. This is scary as a Zerg player. The build OP described is essentially the same as the build ZeNEX Avenge used to win against EG Idra in GSL Season 1 Code A on Bel'shir. http://www.gomtv.net/2012gsls1/vod/66831 I didn't compare the build orders, so there might be some slight differences, but it amounts to the same timing attack anyways. I can't remember other matches off the cuff, but there have been several matches similar to the Idra vs Avenge match for the last 2 months or so. If I remember correctly, nearly 100% of time Protoss won. I felt many Zergs refused to make hydra and died. | ||
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StarGalaxy
Germany744 Posts
I was thinking of getting an obs first and scouting the zerg. | ||
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ipwntbarney
United States141 Posts
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Sekijitsu
United States47 Posts
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mapleleafs791
United States225 Posts
One question though what is the correct number of sentries? (i realize there is a range depending on your style but i just want to have a general idea). I see avenge vs idra GSL and he made 6-7 i believe but in squirtle vs DRG gstl he made 12 sentries but had no warp prism. What number of sentries are people having success with and why do you like that number (pros/cons)? Also do you add a prism and what are your upgrades? (1/0 vs 1/1 vs 2/2) I also realize that more sentries = more requirements for good FF but thats something i can live with | ||
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NoisyNinja
United States991 Posts
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Otsuka
United States21 Posts
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
On April 01 2012 05:44 KalWarkov wrote: its a rly good and strong build, as long as 2 things dont happen a) fast muta or fast infestor b) the Z plays a counter-heavy style and has a huge group of roaches outside of your base just waiting for u to move out. wanna basetrade with the zerg? not rly ^^ head to head vs roachling, its a great strat. Zerg will never have fast muta or fast infestors out against a gateway timing... they just won't have them out in time. If they attempt to do this, they will just die because they have zero units. I don't know why you think fast muta or fast infestor is a good idea, people tend to say that muta is horrible against any type of all-in play, and people don't make infestors to deal with just 2 base toss because roaches are more cost efficient (infestors = supply efficient). Z isn't going to have a huge group of roaches... how in the world is zerg going to have a 'huge group of roaches' at 10:30? They should have been droning up their 3 bases. If they were pumping pure roach from the 8:00 mark, that means no lair, or very little lair tech (no speed, etc), and eventually the 2 base immortal/gateway army would grow so large because Toss would have even economy and just better tech. Eventually mass stalkers just owns Zerg unless they get hydras out. That's why in order for zerg to beat mass stalker or gateway type pushes, they need to get roach/ling then hydras out very quickly to start trading. | ||
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Drowsy
United States4876 Posts
On March 31 2012 21:09 Baselcs wrote: Flawless macro always works until top GM, but this build is special, assume normal macro on both parties. This composition can actually handle a 200/200 army (not that you'd have that) of roach/ling when the engagement is correct. To beat this build you actually need the right composition with the right engagement, no matter how big your army is. This all-in seems to be the hard counter to roach/ling. Exactly. No matter how perfectly zerg macros or prepares for this, protoss can ALWAYS win if the forcefields and engagements are managed to perfection. Fast hydras seem to be the best response to this build though. | ||
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Protossking
Australia103 Posts
On April 01 2012 14:51 Drowsy wrote: Exactly. No matter how perfectly zerg macros or prepares for this, protoss can ALWAYS win if the forcefields and engagements are managed to perfection. Fast hydras seem to be the best response to this build though. baneling drops with mass zerglings is actually the best "response" if you can put it that way. As for fast teching to infestor, that's why you obs scout, you move out earlier with 1 immortal and kill him before pathegan glans comes. | ||
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Lassepetri
Denmark112 Posts
Your build does, however, seem even more streamlined than mine. 2 immortals, 6+ sentries and 20ish stalkers - with 1/1? And it hits at about 11. min. mark? Are you fucking kidding me? Thats just bonkers, man. Def gonna try this out. Sounds like the ephinany of my kind of playstyle. | ||
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Th1rdEye
United States1074 Posts
You can scout it's immortal play slightly after lair finishes and you pop an overseer. Throw an infestation pit, you should already have 10ish roaches to prepare for pressure from warp prism and warp pushes. An immortal push will not hit any faster than 11ish minutes, so you know you are safe to go to 6 gas. Try to engage in mid of map with speedlings and your roaches and pick off sentries when he first pushes out. Meanwhile, 4-5 spines at defendable locations, focus on pure infestor production with every 150 gas, and pure speedling. Consolidate infestors, and fungal the FUCK out of his ball , meanwihle injecting properly (a macro hatch is a must, of c ourse) and then start roach production with more lings. I've only held this off maybe once or twice and it consisted of me buying as much time as possible with 6-7 spines and roaches while i had infestors popping out every few seconds and id fungal away, and infested terran with the rest, meanwhile spending the rest of my larva on lings. I want to see this discussed more. Baneling drops are an option, but the timing to get that is very very very hard to pull off, if not impossible with a normal 3 base lair timing, you'd have to get gasses and lair sooner and that would incorporate a change into most zergs macro plan. THE ONLY thing i can think of in this situation is BANKING on the fact you will lose your third to this timing, but knowing you can hide and get bane drop in time to kill his ball of units if you buy a bit of time and sacrifice your third- MEANWHILE, you make another 3rd, save drones and use the fact you had a few minutes of mining time from your third base to your advantage, and then once you can kill off his ball of units (albeit you may go down to 2 base for a period of time) you can quickly pull back ahead. < Mutas will lose you the game even faster. Wasted gas on spire, mutas etc. I still think hydralisks are too weak and take too long to produce to be effective in this situation (i've tried it, they just get cut off with FF, and once roach count is down hydras are useless against immortal stalker zeal) | ||
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Baselcs
Belgium12 Posts
On April 01 2012 21:29 Galaxy_Zerg wrote: I still think the best response to this is pure macro to get to around 70 supply at 8:00.. 3 base saturation. You will scout robo around 6:30, that's your first warning sign.. You can scout it's immortal play slightly after lair finishes and you pop an overseer. Throw an infestation pit, you should already have 10ish roaches to prepare for pressure from warp prism and warp pushes. An immortal push will not hit any faster than 11ish minutes, so you know you are safe to go to 6 gas. Try to engage in mid of map with speedlings and your roaches and pick off sentries when he first pushes out. Meanwhile, 4-5 spines at defendable locations, focus on pure infestor production with every 150 gas, and pure speedling. Consolidate infestors, and fungal the FUCK out of his ball , meanwihle injecting properly (a macro hatch is a must, of c ourse) and then start roach production with more lings. I've only held this off maybe once or twice and it consisted of me buying as much time as possible with 6-7 spines and roaches while i had infestors popping out every few seconds and id fungal away, and infested terran with the rest, meanwhile spending the rest of my larva on lings. I want to see this discussed more. Baneling drops are an option, but the timing to get that is very very very hard to pull off, if not impossible with a normal 3 base lair timing, you'd have to get gasses and lair sooner and that would incorporate a change into most zergs macro plan. THE ONLY thing i can think of in this situation is BANKING on the fact you will lose your third to this timing, but knowing you can hide and get bane drop in time to kill his ball of units if you buy a bit of time and sacrifice your third- MEANWHILE, you make another 3rd, save drones and use the fact you had a few minutes of mining time from your third base to your advantage, and then once you can kill off his ball of units (albeit you may go down to 2 base for a period of time) you can quickly pull back ahead. < Mutas will lose you the game even faster. Wasted gas on spire, mutas etc. I still think hydralisks are too weak and take too long to produce to be effective in this situation (i've tried it, they just get cut off with FF, and once roach count is down hydras are useless against immortal stalker zeal) This makes no sense, lair, 10 roaches and infestation pit? Then roach/ling production? 6/7 Spines? 4/5 Spines at other locations? Infestors every few seconds? You'll be busy droning until ~9 minutes, you don't have enough gas or minerals to do all that. Also saying hydras take too long, but you do use infestors. While I do agree a bit on losing your 3rd on purpose, that's what I though of yesterday. Play standard, at 9 minutes throw down another 3rd once you scouted this push, stay on ~66 drones though. Then just play standard, mass and army to hold his push, lure him to you 3rd, bait some forcefields, retreat your drones to your new third in time (Before his army is at your third), and then just hope that your army is big enough. May need a macro hatch for this as well, because you wont be able to produce from your original third, would this end up in a mineral shortage? Also baneling drops, can you get it in time with enough resources? My idea: mass ling, he forcefields himself in, then you run in with your overlords, that would be gg. But can you get enough of that by the time his push hits? Would you just die whenever he turns out to do a different push? Should you get less gas? | ||
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Firefoxys
Netherlands9 Posts
I really feel this would make it easier for people to copy your build. I'm trying it atm and it seems like my push is always a minute late. If you would please add that it would be realy awesome. Sorry for my English hope it i`sent to bad. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
baneling drops with mass zerglings is actually the best "response" if you can put it that way. No it's not... You can't afford it, and it takes way too long to get out. It's about as expensive as infestors. | ||
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Drowsy
United States4876 Posts
On April 02 2012 05:29 Belial88 wrote: No it's not... You can't afford it, and it takes way too long to get out. It's about as expensive as infestors. The best response to this push is to just not make roaches and go pure hydraling. But then you have to rely on the element of surprise, as protoss can respond by throwing up a 9-10 minute bay and pushing at 13 minutes with 2 colossi with range. | ||
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aZealot
New Zealand5447 Posts
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