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Introduction:
Hello all,
I’m RemarK, top masters Protoss on the NA server, this is my first guide – I’ll be teaching you guys a relatively simple PvZ build, the 7-gate, +1/+1 immortal all-in! For lack of a better name, I’ll just refer to it as the Immortal 7-gate.
This build is a 2-base PvZ all-in (very strong timing attack) that I saw Choya do in the GSTL. It’s a neat build – the goal is to build a miniature death ball and attack before the Zerg’s unit production has 100% kicked in. It’s especially strong vs Zergs who try to go straight into mutas on 3 hatches, if you execute properly, you will kill them most of the time!
Infrastructure: + Show Spoiler +Before we talk about the build in greater depth, I want to talk about the infrastructure of this build, as well as a few notes about saturation.
The basic infrastructure of the build is you start +1 attack while your cyber core is still warping in, and then a sentry + robo shortly after it has finished. After starting the sentry and robo, you take the extra gases at your natural expansion, keep chrono-boosting probes until you hit 44 (16 probes / mineral field x 2 mineral fields + 3 probes / assimilator x 4 assimilators).
Saturations are very important – when you’re doing a build such as this, it’s crucial to be on top of your saturation game. I don’t transfer any probes to my natural when it finishes, and instead have each nexus rallied to their respective mineral line until I get 16 probes on minerals in my main and 6 on gas (16 probes = box all the mineral workers in your main and it should be exactly 2 rows of probes) – then I rally my main Nexus to the natural mineral field and just add workers until we get the required amount down there as well (3 on each gas, 16 on minerals).
It might seem like I’m making a big deal out of this, but I cannot overstate its importance. You’re attacking a Zerg who probably will have ~60 drones (sometimes even more!) and therefore you need to be squeezing every last drop of efficiency out of what you have. If you’re executing correctly and use your knowledge of saturations to your advantage, then you will actually be attacking at a time when your resource collection rate is better (and has been most of the game) than the Zerg’s, even though he is 20 workers ahead of you (they haven’t fully kicked in yet).
Ok, phew, boring technical stuff out of the way, onto the build!
The Build: + Show Spoiler +Like most PvZ builds, we start off with a standard forge fast expansion (FFE). There’s a few stylistic differences in how people FFE, so don’t feel like you have to use my version of the build – it’s just the version I’m most comfortable with / think is best right now.
9 pylon (@ low-ground) – Scout with the probe that builds this pylon.
13/14 forge (chronoboost probes twice, then build forge) – If it’s a 4-player map AND your first scout hasn’t figured out where the Zerg lives, you need to scout with this probe also in case he’s 6 or 7 pooling.
17 Nexus (you should’ve scouted the Zerg, if he’s early pooling [anything before an 11 pool] you might need to either drop a pylon + cannon in your main mineral line or rush to complete the wall before building the nexus, thus abandoning this build)
17 Cannon
17 Gateway
17 Pylon (Note: the cannon + gateway + pylon should either complete your sim city and leave you with a 1-hex hole that can be plugged by a probe or zealot, or on maps with wide-ramps like Antiga set you up to complete your sim city when you add the cyber core)
*Build a probe*
18 2x Assimilator (I like to build these with the probe that made the 17 pylon, and then use my scouting probe to plug the wall when he gets home)
*Pylon finishes*
Chronoboost probes, put workers on gas when the assimilators finishes, etc
*Nexus finishes, Gateway finishes*
Build your cyber core
@100 gas – Start +1 ground attack upgrade at forge
Around this time, you should be approaching saturation at your main – when you have 16 probes on minerals, make sure to rally both Nexus to your natural expansion
Build a pylon (choose the pylon location carefully, you’re going to build your robo here and you want it to be in a safe and slightly hidden spot – I usually just put it on top of my ramp at my main)
*Cyber core finishes*
Start warp tech, start sentry (optional chronoboost on sentry if you haven’t confirmed a 3rd base)
@200 minerals / 100 gas, drop your robo
Keep chronoboosting probes! We’re not saturated at the nat yet
@100 gas, start second sentry
@100 gas, start +1 armor upgrade
Drop pylons as needed, you want to stay 4-6 supply ahead of the limit right now
@16 probes on minerals at your natural, take both gasses at your natural, keep making probes (you need 6 more at that point, 3 from each nexus)
*Warp tech finishes*
Morph gateway, warp in sentry
*Robotics facility finishes*
Build immortal
Note – at this point, we should be very close to stopping probe production, from here we are going to focus our chronoboost on the +1 armor upgrade (to finish it in time for the push) and on the robo units (to get them out as fast as possible). Additionally, keep warping in sentries off of our single warp gate
As the first immortal is building, add 2 gates.
*First immortal finishes*
Build another immortal, and add 4-gates (the goal of this timing is to be deceptive, Zergs usually sack an overlord to scout and if we don’t add all our gates at once there’s a higher chance of him not seeing all those gates – I also recommend not building all the gates in the same place, although that’s optional and a little bit map dependent)
*Second immortal finishes, morph first 2 gates into warp gates and get more sentries!*
Build warp prism
Note – +1 armor should be almost done, and so should all your gates. Morph them into warp gates, make sure you have 6-8 sentries , and from then on warp in stalkers. You’re going to build pylons 2-3 at a time to keep up with your supply off of 7 gates production.
*Warp prism finishes*
Load up both immortals into the warp prism, and send the warp prism somewhere outside the Zergs 3rd (whatever angle you want to attack from)
Note – as you’re moving out, ideally the Zerg is just going to see gateway units and a warp prism. This makes it slightly harder to get a full read on what build you’re doing, and he might make more roaches than he would have wanted to had he known about the immortals.
Move out with your gateway force
@Full warp cycle – morph warp prism into phase mode, then warp in 7 stalkers (sometimes this will be your second full warp-in
Attack! And good luck.
Notes for execution: + Show Spoiler +With this army composition, you’re essentially creating a well-upgraded miniature death ball. Immortal stalker sentry is a pretty durable and robust composition, with both high durability and good DPS when balled up. Forcefields are a potential game-changer for you, if you can cut off part of his army and kill it for free then you’re on your way to a win! But if you mis-manage your sentry energy by either using inefficient forcefields or too many guardian shields (ideally 1, AT MOST 2 per engagement) then you’ll run out and get overrun by Zerg reinforcements.
Given your composition, you want to be careful and intelligently choose how to engage. Don’t approach from a wide open area, where you can get flanked, surrounded, etc. DO approach from narrow chokes if possible. If the Zerg is caught off guard and doesn’t have enough units, then you can just go straight up to his 3rd and position yourself next to it, attacking and also using it as part of a choke. Do everything you can to get in a position where you are putting pressure on the Zerg and forcing him into entering an unfavorable engagement. Lastly, if possible, do your best to avoid attacking up a ramp blindly.
The warp prism is absolutely crucial to the success of this build – if you lose it, you lose your instant warp gate reinforcements and will probably get overrun by cheap Zerg units. If he has hydras or lots of queens, make sure your warp prism is far enough back to be safe.
Generally with this attack, the Zerg will be doing 1 of 4 things: some permutation of mass roach / roach+ling, ling + hydra, ling + infestor, or ling + muta. Usually, this build hits before any of the latter 3 tech choices have kicked in fully so you will most often be able to overrun them and kill them. If the Zerg has lots of lings, don’t be afraid to warp in a round of zealots, and then just position them in front of your army for the engagement. Zealots, especially +1/+1 zealots are amazing tanks and with their sturdiness + the DPS of your mini-death-star you should be able to trade with a blinding cost-efficiency! Sometimes, you will get the Zerg’s 3rd base but not be able to kill him if his natural is well-defended / his hydra numbers hit a critical mass / he has lots of spines. As long as you’ve killed his 3rd and 10~ drones and he’s not going muta, you’re in a goodspot! All you need to do to win is back-off, go double robo colossus, and then you can push out with 4x Colossus and thermal lance (you can take a 3rd behind this push if you’d like as well). He should die here.
Replays: + Show Spoiler +Here’s a few of my replays from ladder games with this build, I wrote this guide based on the most recent game I played using it. vs coLRyze – http://drop.sc/148257 (this is how the attack plays out vs a Zerg going mutas usually, and is probably the best example of the build) vs TSLRevival – http://drop.sc/148360 (I lost this game, but I’m including it to show both how Z users can play against it and what sort of mistakes P users should avoid making when executing this build) vs RoK – http://drop.sc/148359 (This is an example where I kill the 3rd + some drones, but didn’t want to press the attack further and went for the 2x robo colossus follow-up push) Note – I actually have a lot less replays of this build saved then I thought - if you guys want more replays, just let me know and I’ll do this build vs my next few ladder Zergs and update this guide. I figured that since this attack is just a build order for the first 8 to 9 minutes of the game, that would be the most important part to show!
About Me: + Show Spoiler +I’m RemarK.406 on the NA server, a top masters Protoss who comes from a FPS background (Halo specifically) with no RTS experience. Feel free to message me on TL (soLremarK), reddit (mmkramer), or battle.net with any feedback or thoughts about my guides. I also stream tournament and ladder games at http://www.twitch.tv/tsremark , often with commentary as well. Thank you for reading and I hope this guide was helpful!
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As a zerg player, I can see this working well.
When does the attack hit approximately? 11 min?
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On March 31 2012 08:00 VoirDire wrote: As a zerg player, I can see this working well.
When does the attack hit approximately? 11 min?
Yup, there's some variance depending on the map / how well I'm executing, but I usually hit between 10:35 and 11:00. By 11:00, you should definitely have 2 immortals, 6+ sentries, and ~20 stalkers (and the warp prism). So about 60~ supply in army.
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Thanks for posting the guide, remark, this is definitely helpful.
It is a really strong all-in but it would be useful if you went into the in-game timings a bit more. If Zerg goes for any type of tech beyond roach/ling with upgrades, it's so difficult to hold. Do you think this has a strong chance of success against a player who masses Roach/Ling or mixes in Hydras?
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You didn't lose the second game and it's against "RoK".
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@TangSC - sure, I'll try to add some in-game timings more. I'll have to go through the replay and get time-stamps myself, because I always just execute based on feel / resource allocation. Sorry if the build order seemed a little vague on account of that!
In my experience, it seems like lots of speedlings + hydras are the best way to defend this. If the Zerg can hold their 3rd base / trade armies effectively, they've almost always won the game. And versus stalker sentry immortal, hydralisks + speedlings are the most cost-effective composition you can get as Zerg (I think infestors + fungal growth are less reliable vs so many sturdy units). As Zerg, your goal is to make the Protoss run out of energy, if you can last that long and without taking critical damage, you'll overrun him.
@Zheryn - thanks, I accidentally copy pasta'd the wrong link. Updated with proper replay.
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Hey I remember playing you on ladder and you asked how to write guides Thanks for taking the time to write this up! Have you considered attacking a minute later with blink and +2? I feel the combination of those two is much more effective than a slightly earlier attack and +1 armor.
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I thought you only 10 gated ^^
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On March 31 2012 08:23 CecilSunkure wrote:Hey I remember playing you on ladder and you asked how to write guides Thanks for taking the time to write this up! Have you considered attacking a minute later with blink and +2? I feel the combination of those two is much more effective than a slightly earlier attack and +1 armor. Have to agree, +2 blink all-ins ftw
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Thanks, will have to try this out!
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On March 31 2012 08:26 TangSC wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2012 08:23 CecilSunkure wrote:Hey I remember playing you on ladder and you asked how to write guides Thanks for taking the time to write this up! Have you considered attacking a minute later with blink and +2? I feel the combination of those two is much more effective than a slightly earlier attack and +1 armor. Have to agree, +2 blink all-ins ftw A 2 base 12 minute attack with no initial pressure? Way to late imho. Zergs can very well be maxed at that point.
I think 11 minute is the latest a 2 base all-in should hit. In fact, I think 9-10 min with 3 immortals and +1 attack is stronger.
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On March 31 2012 08:33 VoirDire wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2012 08:26 TangSC wrote:On March 31 2012 08:23 CecilSunkure wrote:Hey I remember playing you on ladder and you asked how to write guides Thanks for taking the time to write this up! Have you considered attacking a minute later with blink and +2? I feel the combination of those two is much more effective than a slightly earlier attack and +1 armor. Have to agree, +2 blink all-ins ftw A 2 base 12 minute attack with no initial pressure? Way to late imho. Zergs can very well be maxed at that point. I think 11 minute is the latest a 2 base all-in should hit. In fact, I think 9-10 min with 3 immortals and +1 attack is stronger. I also like oGsVINES 7gate blink stalker build
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I've been doing this ever since i saw it in the gstl and it's the most powerful timing attack i've learned so far. harder to hold than +2 blink stalker 7 gate in my opinion, as well as less common.
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United States8476 Posts
On March 31 2012 08:33 VoirDire wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2012 08:26 TangSC wrote:On March 31 2012 08:23 CecilSunkure wrote:Hey I remember playing you on ladder and you asked how to write guides Thanks for taking the time to write this up! Have you considered attacking a minute later with blink and +2? I feel the combination of those two is much more effective than a slightly earlier attack and +1 armor. Have to agree, +2 blink all-ins ftw A 2 base 12 minute attack with no initial pressure? Way to late imho. Zergs can very well be maxed at that point. I think 11 minute is the latest a 2 base all-in should hit. In fact, I think 9-10 min with 3 immortals and +1 attack is stronger. I have to agree with Voirdire here and disagree with cecil and tang.
- The earliest you can hit with immortals, +2, and blink is 12minutes. If you hit after 11 minutes without early pressure, any zerg will be free to drone to 60-65 and then mass units to hold this off.
- Getting blink/+2 also reduces your sentry count and you don't even get that many stalkers to utilize blink.
- The strength of this build is forcefields + immortals. Blink doesn't synergize well with these 2 other units/abilities. You're relying on forcefields to prevent damage, not blink
I've tried both this build and another version that Sage used vs a TSL zerg in this GSTL and I have to say that I prefer that one much better. The OP shold take a look at that one. The difference between that build and this one are as follows: Sage opens some variation of zealot/stalker/stalker for initial gateway pressure then follows it up with a warp prism for warp prism pressure. He then goes for obs then 3 immortals off of 3 gas and doesn't get +1 armor. I feel it's a better, more lean build, because you put on more pressure earlier and get 3 immortals instead of 2, because you skip the first sentry thus allowing you to build your robo faster. The disadvantage is that you have less sentry energy and don't have +1 armor in your push.
Finally, I think it might be useful if you benchmark all the robo timings: when you drop the robo, when each of the robo units start and come out. When I was working on this build, I found that was very helpful.
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-IMO it is worth it to wait to push with 3 Immortals. Think about it this way, 1 Immortals = ~4 Stalkers DPS-wise vs. armored units. With 2 Immortals you are basically increasing your DPS by ~4 Stalkers vs. Roaches if you replaced 4 Stalkers (the cost of 2 Immortals) with those 2 Immortals. Is ~4 Stalkers worth of DPS vs armored worth it vs. Blink and +2 weapons? IMO no. -Why not make a warp prism first? It allows you to wait do some sentry drop harass. You can mix this up if you are playing the same opponent by sometimes doing just a light sentry harass in their mineral line and other times a more full-blown perma-FF their ramp backed by ~6 gates type of strategy. -You probably want to mention possible warp prism uses in this strategy. The main advantage of these pushes over a +2 Blink pushes is that you have some harass options available to you mid-game before your push and the options available to you with your prism during your push (i.e. warping in his mineral line while pushing his front, using the warp prism to protect your immortals when they get focus fired, etc.).
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I'm actually using a similar build, but instead of Immortals I go for Colossi and attack the second I have my second Colo with range, it does come out about a minute later and I sacrifice sentries/gas for more zealots. But yeah, robo timing attack at around that time are very strong.
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Watch out for fast infestors from zerg, will shut this down. Most zergs know that hydralisks are a bad option against this due to the FF's/timing and that roach ling is obviously c ountered by immortal FF
ive played many all ins like this on KR ladder, and only thing that works for me is fast infestors and pure fungal/roach ling mass-
note: mass units *can* work, but you have to have great positioning and flanks. the strength of this build is the initial push, that FF's half your units, kills your third, blocks you out of third, etc.
my best advice to zergs trying to hold this off is to scout it in time, and work on spines/infestors.. go light on the roaches, if you mass roach like herp derp zerg does to 12 minute max, you will probably die. you will have no gas left for infestors.
the timing of this build hits later than warp gate pushes and blink all in, so you have plenty of time to go up to 5-6 gasses and full saturation in time. i would not suggest going for a fourth until you see toss go for his third.
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On March 31 2012 09:48 NrGmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2012 08:33 VoirDire wrote:On March 31 2012 08:26 TangSC wrote:On March 31 2012 08:23 CecilSunkure wrote:Hey I remember playing you on ladder and you asked how to write guides Thanks for taking the time to write this up! Have you considered attacking a minute later with blink and +2? I feel the combination of those two is much more effective than a slightly earlier attack and +1 armor. Have to agree, +2 blink all-ins ftw A 2 base 12 minute attack with no initial pressure? Way to late imho. Zergs can very well be maxed at that point. I think 11 minute is the latest a 2 base all-in should hit. In fact, I think 9-10 min with 3 immortals and +1 attack is stronger. I have to agree with Voirdire here and disagree with cecil and tang. - The earliest you can hit with immortals, +2, and blink is 12minutes. If you hit after 11 minutes without early pressure, any zerg will be free to drone to 60-65 and then mass units to hold this off.
- Getting blink/+2 also reduces your sentry count and you don't even get that many stalkers to utilize blink.
- The strength of this build is forcefields + immortals. Blink doesn't synergize well with these 2 other units/abilities. You're relying on forcefields to prevent damage, not blink
I've tried both this build and another version that Sage used vs a TSL zerg in this GSTL and I have to say that I prefer that one much better. The OP shold take a look at that one. The difference between that build and this one are as follows: Sage opens some variation of zealot/stalker/stalker for initial gateway pressure then follows it up with a warp prism for warp prism pressure. He then goes for obs then 3 immortals off of 3 gas and doesn't get +1 armor. I feel it's a better, more lean build, because you put on more pressure earlier and get 3 immortals instead of 2, because you skip the first sentry thus allowing you to build your robo faster. The disadvantage is that you have less sentry energy and don't have +1 armor in your push. Finally, I think it might be useful if you benchmark all the robo timings: when you drop the robo, when each of the robo units start and come out. When I was working on this build, I found that was very helpful.
Would a 4 gate +1 7(ish) zealot pressure work well with this build? As in get the Robo as you pressure with Zealots to force units/roaches and then transition into chronoing Immortals?
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@Cecil - thanks for the feedback. In general with timing attacks vs Zerg, I feel like the sooner they hit the better. Blink and +2 timing attacks are really strong, but I would probably either scratch the immortals or throw a pressure into my strategy if I wanted to hit that timing. I find 4-gate zealot pressure while teching to robo + twilight is a good way to gear up for a 7-gate, +2 blink stalker immortal all-in.
@VoirDire - I'll try that out on the ladder and see if it seems stronger. I'll post in here once I have.
@Skyro - that's a pretty good point. I think getting the warp prism first would definitely be a smarter allocation of resources. I just copied the build based on what Choya did in the GSTL, but the flexibility of warp prism harass would increase the strength of the build a lot.
@Mikelius - I don't think +1 zealot pressure is ideal with this build, if you were gonna do that, might as well just do HerO's Pvz opener exactly and go into both robo and twilight to get blink, +2, and 2-3 immortals for an all-in. But as skyro mentioned, it would be good to get warp prism first and then you can harass with that
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United States8476 Posts
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On March 31 2012 12:17 NrGmonk wrote: wow, way2hate
Oops totally missed your post =) must have been the blue or something. I'll look into that other build, that seems like a common suggestion (to drop the +1 armor, get an extra immortal, and hit faster). And as per your and Tang's suggestion, I'll be updating OP later tonight with robo benchmark timings
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On March 31 2012 09:48 NrGmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2012 08:33 VoirDire wrote:On March 31 2012 08:26 TangSC wrote:On March 31 2012 08:23 CecilSunkure wrote:Hey I remember playing you on ladder and you asked how to write guides Thanks for taking the time to write this up! Have you considered attacking a minute later with blink and +2? I feel the combination of those two is much more effective than a slightly earlier attack and +1 armor. Have to agree, +2 blink all-ins ftw A 2 base 12 minute attack with no initial pressure? Way to late imho. Zergs can very well be maxed at that point. I think 11 minute is the latest a 2 base all-in should hit. In fact, I think 9-10 min with 3 immortals and +1 attack is stronger. I have to agree with Voirdire here and disagree with cecil and tang. [list][*]The earliest you can hit with immortals, +2, and blink is 12minutes. If you hit after 11 minutes without early pressure, any zerg will be free to drone to 60-65 and then mass units to hold this off.
Absolutely, and in addition to this the zerg can usually tech to infestors in time for a 13-14minute attack, in which case your sentries (your most crucial units tbh) will die very quickly to fungles and your stalkers won't be able to blink.
I am on RemarK's team and I'm sure he's heard me bragging about how good this build is in our clan channel. xD.
I want to discuss map dependancy with this build though, I've tried it on lots of maps and if the zerg can get a good surround this build is generally NOT that strong unless you have brilliant forcefields, which is hard when on creep. I wouldn't recommend this on Tal'Darim or Shakuras Plateau, it can work okay on Antiga Shipyard. But there is one map which I have NOT lost with this build, and it's cloud kingdom.
now excuse my terrible paint skills, but the red arrow signifies where you want your army to go on cloud kingdom, and the brown dots is a hatchery. The blue dots are forcefields. If you get into a situation where you can use the hatchery with your forcefields, just tell your opponent to get out (jokes lol but still its GG). This positioning is so good for a sentry heavy army, just remember you have spare forcefields, so don't be scared of being baited out with forcefields you have more than enough. Use them, and not sparingly.
OH and I almost forgot, RemarK, build an observer before your first immortal, scout with it and return back with it in your army. If he has burrow + movement and you don't have an observer you're completely screwed, so add that into your OP.
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On March 31 2012 16:40 Protossking wrote: edit: doublepost Sorry for the OT but... double post 1 hour later? How did you manage to do that!? :D The session must have timed out multiple times by then.
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Nice build this is... maybe will use it sometime because a lot of my 2b allins arent working anymore against good zergs
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How does zerg beat this? Every zerg right now is complaining about this. I haven't seen anyone in the gsl hold this (drg vs squirtle, drg perfectly holds the early 4 gate pressure and comes out way ahead, knew exactly what squirtle was following up with, and still died, even with baiting FF in the open before engagement to waste sentry energy).
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Hmm you still use the old version which is good but not ideal imo.
In idra vs feast on antiga at iem feast hits a 2immo timing with +1 and a prism off 3 gas, the slight variation of it I use:
Ffe Sentry + wg + third gas 6:00 Robo +1 attack and observer 7:00 6 gates Cb 3 immos then prism, go up to 8-10 sentries. 4th gas as you move out. Mass stalker warpin, allcb to gates. rely on proxy pylons for warpin till prism gets there.
I think the faster you hit the better, because if the zerg stops at 60 drones and makes pure units your slightly later version has a lot less chance of working. As monk mentioned sage also did a similar build and I personally like his variation better too.
I think hiding the immortals in the prism is quite silly because he wants mass roachling with hydras if he has a den vs both a gateway and a gateway immo push. Lings are actually terrible vs this because of the infinity forcefields.
Also with a delayed timing like this I think it's absolutely essential to have an obs, otherwise you'll lose to everyone who has got burrow. You can also use it to scout, so it's really worth it imo.
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For zergs the only way to hold this is to get three base saturation and pumping roach hydra. If you take too much damage leading up to the main push you won't have enough production. Meaning this push is probably the hardest to stop of all the two base allins against zerg.
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On March 31 2012 19:15 VoirDire wrote:Sorry for the OT but... double post 1 hour later? How did you manage to do that!? :D The session must have timed out multiple times by then.
Not if you got autologin checked
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Strongest push that I know of, I always lose to this. Whenever I see it coming and I know I can't hold it (I never can) I semi engage to bait FF's, keep making hydra/ling, keep baiting FFs, don't bother defending my 3rd, immediately start a different 3rd and finally engage when he comes in my natural and I hope to hold it. Suffices to say that I have a low win % vs. this push, I always scout it perfectly, I know exactly what's coming, but whatever tactic I use, I just fail.
Edit: Let's discuss compositions.
Roach/Ling/Baneling drops. Baneling drops should work vs. these sentry heavy compositions, no aoe to take out all the lings? Roach/Ling. This build seems to hard counter roach/ling. Hydra/Ling. Fares better vs. immortals and FFs, I think it should be the strongest, but it doesn't work. Roach/Ling/Infestor. More lings, less roaches compared to roach ling. I never tried this, I hate infestors. Muta/Ling. No. Roach/Hydra. I rather use the gas for hydras, all leftover minerals for lings.
Any better opinions? Has anyone explored bane drops? Did I forget a composition? Is there a weakness in this build if you scout it at ~7 minutes?
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By far the most disgusting toss all in.
As for how to hold it as zerg, i think that its not the army composition that is the most important thing but flawless macro and good engagements. Cut the drones at 60 (8:00), mass roach/ling with some upg going on, make sure you are not floating on minerals and injecting perfectly and you should have enough to stop it.
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On March 31 2012 21:02 syriuszonito wrote: By far the most disgusting toss all in.
As for how to hold it as zerg, i think that its not the army composition that is the most important thing but flawless macro and good engagements. Cut the drones at 60 (8:00), mass roach/ling with some upg going on, make sure you are not floating on minerals and injecting perfectly and you should have enough to stop it. Flawless macro always works until top GM, but this build is special, assume normal macro on both parties. This composition can actually handle a 200/200 army (not that you'd have that) of roach/ling when the engagement is correct. To beat this build you actually need the right composition with the right engagement, no matter how big your army is. This all-in seems to be the hard counter to roach/ling.
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On March 31 2012 21:09 Baselcs wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2012 21:02 syriuszonito wrote: By far the most disgusting toss all in.
As for how to hold it as zerg, i think that its not the army composition that is the most important thing but flawless macro and good engagements. Cut the drones at 60 (8:00), mass roach/ling with some upg going on, make sure you are not floating on minerals and injecting perfectly and you should have enough to stop it. Flawless macro always works until top GM, but this build is special, assume normal macro on both parties. This composition can actually handle a 200/200 army (not that you'd have that) of roach/ling when the engagement is correct. To beat this build you actually need the right composition with the right engagement, no matter how big your army is. This all-in seems to be the hard counter to roach/ling.
With normal macro on both sides zerg loses I am afraid, thats why I find it digusting. I know that this composition can handle a 200/200 army, the trick is to efficiently trade until toss runs out of forcefields. You should start as soon as toss leaves the base (his army is gonna be relatively small compared to yours) and never stop. Few spines on third gonna help a bit as well.
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On March 31 2012 21:17 syriuszonito wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2012 21:09 Baselcs wrote:On March 31 2012 21:02 syriuszonito wrote: By far the most disgusting toss all in.
As for how to hold it as zerg, i think that its not the army composition that is the most important thing but flawless macro and good engagements. Cut the drones at 60 (8:00), mass roach/ling with some upg going on, make sure you are not floating on minerals and injecting perfectly and you should have enough to stop it. Flawless macro always works until top GM, but this build is special, assume normal macro on both parties. This composition can actually handle a 200/200 army (not that you'd have that) of roach/ling when the engagement is correct. To beat this build you actually need the right composition with the right engagement, no matter how big your army is. This all-in seems to be the hard counter to roach/ling. With normal macro on both sides zerg loses I am afraid, thats why I find it digusting. I know that this composition can handle a 200/200 army, the trick is to efficiently trade until toss runs out of forcefields. You should start as soon as toss leaves the base (his army is gonna be relatively small compared to yours) and never stop. Few spines on third gonna help a bit as well. But this build works because it can beat 200/200 roach/ling. It forces an engagement at the 3rd, kills the army with good FFs and then easily handles all reinforcement. I don't think some spines are going to work vs this. The solution is constantly baiting forcefields yes, but there are so many sentries and once he's at your area around your third, he only needs a few forcefields anymore.
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Apologies if this is a stupid question, but would it be possible to use this build as a basic framework to take a reasonably quick third if I built 1-2 less gates and didn't cut probes? I've been looking for a non-Stargate opener to use to take a third in PvZ, but most of the things I've tried haven't yielded great success versus standard roach ling spam (low-ish masters MMR). It seems like the quick immortals and opportunity for possible warp prism harass could provide an opening. Or would I be better off using another build entirely?
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On April 01 2012 03:22 Chandra wrote: Apologies if this is a stupid question, but would it be possible to use this build as a basic framework to take a reasonably quick third if I built 1-2 less gates and didn't cut probes? I've been looking for a non-Stargate opener to use to take a third in PvZ, but most of the things I've tried haven't yielded great success versus standard roach ling spam (low-ish masters MMR). It seems like the quick immortals and opportunity for possible warp prism harass could provide an opening. Or would I be better off using another build entirely?
Dependant on the map, absolutely. Long ranged units and alot of forcefields, you can very well expand instead of pushing. I've offraced abit at masters level and when I see the zerg having reacted well enough I just back off to expo and since he had to go hydras to counter it it's very hard for him to be aggresive against my third.
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I feel so dirty using this build but it seems almost near impossible to ever try and take a 3rd against a good Zerg who will just bum rush you with maxed out roach ling.
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On April 01 2012 03:22 Chandra wrote: Apologies if this is a stupid question, but would it be possible to use this build as a basic framework to take a reasonably quick third if I built 1-2 less gates and didn't cut probes? I've been looking for a non-Stargate opener to use to take a third in PvZ, but most of the things I've tried haven't yielded great success versus standard roach ling spam (low-ish masters MMR). It seems like the quick immortals and opportunity for possible warp prism harass could provide an opening. Or would I be better off using another build entirely? This in fact is one of the standard frameworks to take a 3rd.
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its a rly good and strong build, as long as 2 things dont happen
a) fast muta or fast infestor b) the Z plays a counter-heavy style and has a huge group of roaches outside of your base just waiting for u to move out. wanna basetrade with the zerg? not rly ^^
head to head vs roachling, its a great strat.
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I'm pretty I sure I saw this in the GSTL, and it totally smashed DRG, made him look like just some scrub Zerg.
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Awesome guide remark, here showing dat support! I've seen you use it on your stream and it is definitely potent.
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Well written OP. This is scary as a Zerg player.
The build OP described is essentially the same as the build ZeNEX Avenge used to win against EG Idra in GSL Season 1 Code A on Bel'shir. http://www.gomtv.net/2012gsls1/vod/66831 I didn't compare the build orders, so there might be some slight differences, but it amounts to the same timing attack anyways.
I can't remember other matches off the cuff, but there have been several matches similar to the Idra vs Avenge match for the last 2 months or so. If I remember correctly, nearly 100% of time Protoss won. I felt many Zergs refused to make hydra and died.
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i love this build. I have been doing this for some weeks now and it really works great against most zerg builds. I feel against infestors it can be tough if they fungal all your sentrys and then crush you. The only real weakness of this build imho is ling baneling drop. I don't think you can do anything against that with that build. Or does anyone has some suggestions? I was thinking of getting an obs first and scouting the zerg.
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So would Zenio's hydra/ling opener that Day[9] did a daily on a few months ago do well against this build?
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ZeNEXAvenge did this build or a nearly identical variation against Idra in season 1's Code A round of 48. I've been waiting for someone to both recognize it from somewhere else and do a guide to it. I like me some 2 base all in.
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nice, i love pushes like this. When i offrace all i do is all in if i care about winning so this is a great addition.
One question though what is the correct number of sentries? (i realize there is a range depending on your style but i just want to have a general idea). I see avenge vs idra GSL and he made 6-7 i believe but in squirtle vs DRG gstl he made 12 sentries but had no warp prism.
What number of sentries are people having success with and why do you like that number (pros/cons)? Also do you add a prism and what are your upgrades? (1/0 vs 1/1 vs 2/2)
I also realize that more sentries = more requirements for good FF but thats something i can live with
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What are some indications that this push is not going to work? Will I have to just wait until the engagement or are there some things I can recognize before hand? Thanks!
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On April 01 2012 05:44 KalWarkov wrote: its a rly good and strong build, as long as 2 things dont happen
a) fast muta or fast infestor b) the Z plays a counter-heavy style and has a huge group of roaches outside of your base just waiting for u to move out. wanna basetrade with the zerg? not rly ^^
head to head vs roachling, its a great strat.
Zerg will never have fast muta or fast infestors out against a gateway timing... they just won't have them out in time. If they attempt to do this, they will just die because they have zero units. I don't know why you think fast muta or fast infestor is a good idea, people tend to say that muta is horrible against any type of all-in play, and people don't make infestors to deal with just 2 base toss because roaches are more cost efficient (infestors = supply efficient).
Z isn't going to have a huge group of roaches... how in the world is zerg going to have a 'huge group of roaches' at 10:30? They should have been droning up their 3 bases. If they were pumping pure roach from the 8:00 mark, that means no lair, or very little lair tech (no speed, etc), and eventually the 2 base immortal/gateway army would grow so large because Toss would have even economy and just better tech.
Eventually mass stalkers just owns Zerg unless they get hydras out. That's why in order for zerg to beat mass stalker or gateway type pushes, they need to get roach/ling then hydras out very quickly to start trading.
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On March 31 2012 21:09 Baselcs wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2012 21:02 syriuszonito wrote: By far the most disgusting toss all in.
As for how to hold it as zerg, i think that its not the army composition that is the most important thing but flawless macro and good engagements. Cut the drones at 60 (8:00), mass roach/ling with some upg going on, make sure you are not floating on minerals and injecting perfectly and you should have enough to stop it. Flawless macro always works until top GM, but this build is special, assume normal macro on both parties. This composition can actually handle a 200/200 army (not that you'd have that) of roach/ling when the engagement is correct. To beat this build you actually need the right composition with the right engagement, no matter how big your army is. This all-in seems to be the hard counter to roach/ling. Exactly. No matter how perfectly zerg macros or prepares for this, protoss can ALWAYS win if the forcefields and engagements are managed to perfection. Fast hydras seem to be the best response to this build though.
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On April 01 2012 14:51 Drowsy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2012 21:09 Baselcs wrote:On March 31 2012 21:02 syriuszonito wrote: By far the most disgusting toss all in.
As for how to hold it as zerg, i think that its not the army composition that is the most important thing but flawless macro and good engagements. Cut the drones at 60 (8:00), mass roach/ling with some upg going on, make sure you are not floating on minerals and injecting perfectly and you should have enough to stop it. Flawless macro always works until top GM, but this build is special, assume normal macro on both parties. This composition can actually handle a 200/200 army (not that you'd have that) of roach/ling when the engagement is correct. To beat this build you actually need the right composition with the right engagement, no matter how big your army is. This all-in seems to be the hard counter to roach/ling. Exactly. No matter how perfectly zerg macros or prepares for this, protoss can ALWAYS win if the forcefields and engagements are managed to perfection. Fast hydras seem to be the best response to this build though.
baneling drops with mass zerglings is actually the best "response" if you can put it that way.
As for fast teching to infestor, that's why you obs scout, you move out earlier with 1 immortal and kill him before pathegan glans comes.
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Plat toss here. Ive been doing immortal 6gate with +1 attack for some time now. I can hit around 10 - 10:30, a time as you say, where zergs production isnt fully up n running (at least not on my lvl). Got sick and tired of muta ling, so why not kill them before it becomes a problem?
Your build does, however, seem even more streamlined than mine. 2 immortals, 6+ sentries and 20ish stalkers - with 1/1? And it hits at about 11. min. mark? Are you fucking kidding me? Thats just bonkers, man. Def gonna try this out. Sounds like the ephinany of my kind of playstyle.
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I still think the best response to this is pure macro to get to around 70 supply at 8:00.. 3 base saturation. You will scout robo around 6:30, that's your first warning sign..
You can scout it's immortal play slightly after lair finishes and you pop an overseer. Throw an infestation pit, you should already have 10ish roaches to prepare for pressure from warp prism and warp pushes. An immortal push will not hit any faster than 11ish minutes, so you know you are safe to go to 6 gas. Try to engage in mid of map with speedlings and your roaches and pick off sentries when he first pushes out.
Meanwhile, 4-5 spines at defendable locations, focus on pure infestor production with every 150 gas, and pure speedling. Consolidate infestors, and fungal the FUCK out of his ball , meanwihle injecting properly (a macro hatch is a must, of c ourse) and then start roach production with more lings. I've only held this off maybe once or twice and it consisted of me buying as much time as possible with 6-7 spines and roaches while i had infestors popping out every few seconds and id fungal away, and infested terran with the rest, meanwhile spending the rest of my larva on lings.
I want to see this discussed more. Baneling drops are an option, but the timing to get that is very very very hard to pull off, if not impossible with a normal 3 base lair timing, you'd have to get gasses and lair sooner and that would incorporate a change into most zergs macro plan.
THE ONLY thing i can think of in this situation is BANKING on the fact you will lose your third to this timing, but knowing you can hide and get bane drop in time to kill his ball of units if you buy a bit of time and sacrifice your third- MEANWHILE, you make another 3rd, save drones and use the fact you had a few minutes of mining time from your third base to your advantage, and then once you can kill off his ball of units (albeit you may go down to 2 base for a period of time) you can quickly pull back ahead. <
Mutas will lose you the game even faster. Wasted gas on spire, mutas etc.
I still think hydralisks are too weak and take too long to produce to be effective in this situation (i've tried it, they just get cut off with FF, and once roach count is down hydras are useless against immortal stalker zeal)
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On April 01 2012 21:29 Galaxy_Zerg wrote: I still think the best response to this is pure macro to get to around 70 supply at 8:00.. 3 base saturation. You will scout robo around 6:30, that's your first warning sign..
You can scout it's immortal play slightly after lair finishes and you pop an overseer. Throw an infestation pit, you should already have 10ish roaches to prepare for pressure from warp prism and warp pushes. An immortal push will not hit any faster than 11ish minutes, so you know you are safe to go to 6 gas. Try to engage in mid of map with speedlings and your roaches and pick off sentries when he first pushes out.
Meanwhile, 4-5 spines at defendable locations, focus on pure infestor production with every 150 gas, and pure speedling. Consolidate infestors, and fungal the FUCK out of his ball , meanwihle injecting properly (a macro hatch is a must, of c ourse) and then start roach production with more lings. I've only held this off maybe once or twice and it consisted of me buying as much time as possible with 6-7 spines and roaches while i had infestors popping out every few seconds and id fungal away, and infested terran with the rest, meanwhile spending the rest of my larva on lings.
I want to see this discussed more. Baneling drops are an option, but the timing to get that is very very very hard to pull off, if not impossible with a normal 3 base lair timing, you'd have to get gasses and lair sooner and that would incorporate a change into most zergs macro plan.
THE ONLY thing i can think of in this situation is BANKING on the fact you will lose your third to this timing, but knowing you can hide and get bane drop in time to kill his ball of units if you buy a bit of time and sacrifice your third- MEANWHILE, you make another 3rd, save drones and use the fact you had a few minutes of mining time from your third base to your advantage, and then once you can kill off his ball of units (albeit you may go down to 2 base for a period of time) you can quickly pull back ahead. <
Mutas will lose you the game even faster. Wasted gas on spire, mutas etc.
I still think hydralisks are too weak and take too long to produce to be effective in this situation (i've tried it, they just get cut off with FF, and once roach count is down hydras are useless against immortal stalker zeal)
This makes no sense, lair, 10 roaches and infestation pit? Then roach/ling production? 6/7 Spines? 4/5 Spines at other locations? Infestors every few seconds? You'll be busy droning until ~9 minutes, you don't have enough gas or minerals to do all that. Also saying hydras take too long, but you do use infestors.
While I do agree a bit on losing your 3rd on purpose, that's what I though of yesterday. Play standard, at 9 minutes throw down another 3rd once you scouted this push, stay on ~66 drones though. Then just play standard, mass and army to hold his push, lure him to you 3rd, bait some forcefields, retreat your drones to your new third in time (Before his army is at your third), and then just hope that your army is big enough. May need a macro hatch for this as well, because you wont be able to produce from your original third, would this end up in a mineral shortage?
Also baneling drops, can you get it in time with enough resources? My idea: mass ling, he forcefields himself in, then you run in with your overlords, that would be gg. But can you get enough of that by the time his push hits? Would you just die whenever he turns out to do a different push? Should you get less gas?
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Hej dude i really like your build. But it would be awesome if you could ad some in game timings like gases on 4:10 ( or so) I really feel this would make it easier for people to copy your build. I'm trying it atm and it seems like my push is always a minute late. If you would please add that it would be realy awesome. Sorry for my English hope it i`sent to bad.
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baneling drops with mass zerglings is actually the best "response" if you can put it that way.
No it's not...
You can't afford it, and it takes way too long to get out. It's about as expensive as infestors.
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On April 02 2012 05:29 Belial88 wrote:Show nested quote +baneling drops with mass zerglings is actually the best "response" if you can put it that way. No it's not... You can't afford it, and it takes way too long to get out. It's about as expensive as infestors.
The best response to this push is to just not make roaches and go pure hydraling. But then you have to rely on the element of surprise, as protoss can respond by throwing up a 9-10 minute bay and pushing at 13 minutes with 2 colossi with range.
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I was going to say, isn't the Hydra a good response from a Protoss perspective? Assuming you scout it, you can call off the push and put down a 3rd which Hydras are unlikely to threaten (too slow off creep; although this may be map dependent) and continue on Robo tech to Colossus? Would this be correct?
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as a zerg if i recognize this coming is the proper response to get infestors with ling or roach?
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On April 02 2012 05:29 Belial88 wrote:Show nested quote +baneling drops with mass zerglings is actually the best "response" if you can put it that way. No it's not... You can't afford it, and it takes way too long to get out. It's about as expensive as infestors.
you can certainly afford it and you can certainly get it out on time.
bling drops + speed roaches beat every delayed ground all in. (and having the roaches means you can also defend from the earlier ones that feature abilityless gateway units.)
i think its the best choice, and it's quite satisfying to kill the protosses "timing push" (all in) in .5 seconds.
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On April 02 2012 08:43 Let it Raine wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2012 05:29 Belial88 wrote:baneling drops with mass zerglings is actually the best "response" if you can put it that way. No it's not... You can't afford it, and it takes way too long to get out. It's about as expensive as infestors. you can certainly afford it and you can certainly get it out on time. bling drops + speed roaches beat every delayed ground all in. (and having the roaches means you can also defend from the earlier ones that feature abilityless gateway units.) i think its the best choice, and it's quite satisfying to kill the protosses "timing push" (all in) in .5 seconds. Sounds really interesting Raine, could you please post a replay or two of you holding these delayed pushes with Roaches and baneling drops? Thanks!
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Hey remark thanks a lot for sharing this seems like a really beefy build to attempt. I will be using it against my next few zergs in mid master league. thanks!
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Best play is definitely 3-4 immortals with +1 +1 at 11:30.
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Really finding this build a great 2 base build to use versus Zerg lately, only lost one game so far with it because I took too late to finally engage anywhere on the Zerg creep and he basically was maxing out on roach at that point.
Sick build, going to be interesting to see how Zergs want to counter this build!
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I am loving this build it has completely turned my PVZ around I went from lossing to muta ling and stephano roaches every game even vs players of lower skill level to now winning almost every PVZ I play. Also I would like to add as long as you hit before 11 mins u don't need to build an obs till u already are moving out and just rally it to there third as unless they skipped roach speed and went straight for very early move burrow which means they probably delayed upgrades and even if you have to back out for second Giving them time do get more units out your 1/1 should be able to go toe to toe with 0/0 slow roach once you have the obs.
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Squirtle is doing this build(ish) :D
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On April 09 2012 11:50 grush57 wrote: Squirtle is doing this build(ish) :D
And... it gets stomped by mass roaches.
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On April 09 2012 11:54 tomatriedes wrote:And... it gets stomped by mass roaches.
Yea, he got unlucky with the basetrade so he had to warp in at 2 different areas.
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Can you explain what the +1 armor does? +1 and +2 weapons are very important upgrades but I have yet to find something that makes +1 armor a relevant upgrade to have.
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On April 09 2012 12:30 Ncage wrote: Can you explain what the +1 armor does? +1 and +2 weapons are very important upgrades but I have yet to find something that makes +1 armor a relevant upgrade to have. +2 attack requires a twilight council, and it isn't worth getting just for the upgrade when going for an immortal rush.
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On April 09 2012 12:30 Ncage wrote: Can you explain what the +1 armor does? +1 and +2 weapons are very important upgrades but I have yet to find something that makes +1 armor a relevant upgrade to have. The big thing +1 Armor does is increasing the hits zerglings need to deplete a zealots LIFE(not shield) from 25 to 33 which is really big.
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I'm a 1250 point master on the NA server, I use this build every time on Cloud Kingdom but on no other map, my record on Cloud PvZ is 10-1 (not even joking). The 1 game I lost was a baneling drop player, sentries die so fast to blings and then you can get an easy surround with mass speedling. I don't know how hard this is to pull off as a zerg player, or how versatile it is, but maybe give it a try.
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On April 09 2012 14:51 Protossking wrote: I'm a 1250 point master on the NA server, I use this build every time on Cloud Kingdom but on no other map, my record on Cloud PvZ is 10-1 (not even joking). The 1 game I lost was a baneling drop player, sentries die so fast to blings and then you can get an easy surround with mass speedling. I don't know how hard this is to pull off as a zerg player, or how versatile it is, but maybe give it a try. It's not that hard to pull of, but it's really weak to a fast warp-gate rush or blink stalkers.
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what can you do if the zerg just goes for a base race against you when u attack his 3rd? also puts up like 10 spinecrawlers in their natural
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On April 11 2012 11:44 aznheat80 wrote: what can you do if the zerg just goes for a base race against you when u attack his 3rd? also puts up like 10 spinecrawlers in their natural
cannons, warp in your nat, you'll scout his army moving out, cannons and a warp in will finish before he arrives on most maps.
immortals vs. spinecrawlers is better than roaches vs. cannons. If he builds enough spines to actually hold off the push he's hurt his econ a lot, so you can go back, kill his army, and you're way way way ahead, esp. if he's lost his third.
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Recently I've been fairly succesful with this build. I messed up a few times when it involved an all-in of Zerg, but thad had nothing to do with the build. I once lost because I messed up.
Then I started losing vs mass Roach, Stephano style. Just 2 games, nothing big, but it made me wonder what I could do differently.
First of all I became a lot quicker with my FFs. When the Zerg aggresively moved his Roaches into my army, the FFs did nothing. So I learnd to cast them earlier. I decided to grab a 3rd, a TC and a 2nd Forge. I got Blink and +2 +2 while I defended my natural and 3rd with my army. In the end I had enough to push out and seal the deal. Oh yeah, I also decided to always go Obs before Immortal. I need to know what's coming my way.
That was only 2 practice games (vs my buddy's offrace Zerg). Your thoughts? Any other ideas?
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This build have totally changed my winrate pvz to about 95% and from 20# diamond to 1# diamond (EU), thx all posters for that.
My thoughts from meeting 20-60 ranked masters: I dont agree with op on +1 armor; hits to late and no benefits for +1armor. Instead what Arcanefrost said is working better for me at least.
First: Very important to get the FFE up and running inflicting as much damage to zerg as possible. Like if you dont scout Z first and go 14 forge, then block his 2nd and canonrush his 3rd (after putting down your own exp) and so on. Important to delay full saturation for Z on 3 bases for as long as possible since he wont benefit from it then.
Saturation is vital: full saturation in main, then start rally to natural. Check if tripple probes are working on same mineralpatch in main. stop at 46. You need to take care of those probies! All chrono on probes untill robo is up then all (ALL for rest of the push that is) on robo production.
If I you dont se gas from Z I go 1-2 stalkers for abusing no lingspeed. Also delays the zerg. But dont miss your macro for microing! Scout at 4.30 for 3rd base with probe or 1st zealot.
Gas spending: (2+1 early assimilators as Arcanefrost suggested) first 100 centry, then 50 on warp, then 100 on robo (where it aint scouted), next 100 +1, next 100 2nd centry, and so on.
After robo I ad 3 gates and then 2 extra when I can afford them. First warpin is centries as many you can afford and zealots and at the same time then ad 3-4 pylons. Continue 3pylon-production at a time for each production cycle. Warp-in at proxy pylon is mainly stalkers.
Try to push as early as possible even if you dont have 3 immortals yet. Around 9 min I move out and rally warp prism and more immortals to army. Good proxypylon placements (wich should be possible with stalker poke and earlier small centry poke).
Engaging has been covered pretty well earlier here. But dont get surrounded . Remember this egagements is much harder for zerg, he has to take care of 3 bases, escape with drones, engage with multiple armies in perfect locations for not getting forcefielded, AND you decide when to move in and when to build units behind it. Use your observer to see his army placement and cut of armies with FF. My experiences are that the lings often comes to earlie so you can drop FF behind them (preferably in choke) to cut roaches away and then stutter step retreat until lings are dead, then move in again. Dont be afraid to stay and fight for while as long as you can stand between 2nd and 3rd bases. Its so hard for zerg to produce from specific hatcheries with specific rallypoints and move armies at same time - Its not Ret we are talking about here... Rally more immortals (chronoboosted).
At last my thoughts are that this build is using a lot of fun technics for toss and is practising multitasking (macro/micro). Give this build a try for 10 games at least and you will be a master at it. I think its like playing 111 as TvsP.
Follow up if you cant seal the deal (cant take his natural but you have taken his 3rd as an example): Colossus-den and expand with 2-3 more gates at 3rd with canons behind for blocking 3rd for roach swarm. Then doubble forge and push when you have tech and uppgrade advantage (around 170 food, stalker/colossus ball). Use warp prism for warping in zealots to make him retreat with his 200/200 roach swarm and by some time.
This was maybe a little bit to much text, just some thoughts
Recommendation for top daimond/lower master protosses builds: pvp: 11gate 3gate pressure http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=273465 it gets you mapcontrole and agression so YOU can adapt to what you see and you are equal on probes with perfect macro. If I see 12 gate and probably early 4gate I fake engage and expand+tech for example. pvt: MC:s 17 nexus (3chrono on probes) then adapt to what you scout: 2rax: drop 2nd gate before core - chrono z+s, no gas: all chrono on probes and 4 gate pressure, closed wall: rage quit to lower your win ratio, (no its just to complicated to write here...). Abuse the strong 2-base pushes/all-in from toss like 8 gate, fast colossus, and so on.
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Oh, I was really looking for this build since ASUS ROG. Thank you.
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As a zerg I completly crush everything that doesn't includes void ray or colossi or both
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Wow, I hope I don't run in to you on the ladder then...
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I'm a diamond player who quit playing sometime before they added master's league, I've just come back to the game and this build served as a launching point to get me back into the game. This build is awfully brutal and the mentality has totally changed my PvZ, I just wanted to throw out a few observations I came up with while doing this build.
1.) 11 Minute Timing - I see a lot of really cool suggestions on variations of the build including zealot pressure, going warp prism first, etc. My issue with most of these is that the timing is incredibly important, you'll get away with hitting the push as much as a minute late a lot of times, but if you watch the replay you'll be able to see how Z has a chance to get back into the game if they're on top of their form. While you can have +2/blink/carriers/whatever by 12 minutes, Z has a glaring weakness at the 11 minute mark (on 3 base), and thats too tempting not to exploit.
2.) Scouting - Hiding a few probes is your only way of confirming the 3 base build (unless Z obliges in immediately dropping all 3 hatches right in front of you), or to give you time to react to any deviations. Here's a few of my thoughts: a.)The probe needs to confirm that the natural hatch actually gets down in order to not get Leenock'd by a canceled hatch into 7-10 roaches at your door. If Z is doing this appropriately, I'm not sure if you can hold without having to shove a probe into their main to scout the early Roach Warren, which would obviously be dicey, but at Diamond level all you need to do is confirm the hatch built. b.) After a 13/14 forge I send the probe that built it out onto the map into a hidey hole far from the base and way out of ling/overlord/watchtower sight, this is important because they get out before lings should, allowing you to actually hide instead of just hoping to get past the lings and that your first scout didn't die. This second probe can absolutely confirm the 3rd, I prefer to use the first scout if possible, but the second is there to confirm it. c.) If Z takes his darn time putting down the 3rd, chrono a sentry once immediately, then drop 2 cannons instead of gates, I think you can keep going for your robo first (before gates). If they still havent dropped their 3rd within another minute, give your sentry production another chrono. If Z drops his 3rd late, you're still at least even, if not ahead with the money wasted on cannons (you'll want them later anyways to prevent counters aimed to delay your push) so no worries.
3.) Push to win or transition out? - the attack is sentry dependent, and theres not a lot of ways to run through 6-8 sentries' energy before the P can get the 3rd. So once you've gotten the 3rd down (original post is pretty well detailed on the tactics of how to nail it) the question is push or transition out? This really is a matter of your sentries and his army, if he manages to drain your sentries without you severely crippling his roach count pushing up hill to the 2nd can be really risky. For this reason, once I'm sure I'm going to get the 3rd I immediately drop a Robo Bay for colossus follow up as seen in the 3rd replay in the original post, Remark vs Rok, and I start producing probes again, allowing for a transition into a 3rd during my colossus push. The biggest reason I love this push is while it is an All-In (it must inflict long term damage or you are so far behind you'll never win vs an equally skilled opponent), it is easy to transition out of if you kill the 3rd into another timing push (I'm looking at your colossus) or standard economic play because unlike a lot of other builds you're already invested into all the sim city required to deny multi prong attacks on your nat while your army defends the 3rd.
Finally, some musings on what Z can do - I'm not sure if stephano roaches will work, as this army comp eats roaches, and while stephano style has some sick production, proper control of 24-32 force fields or more is a pretty horrible situation for roaches to be in if you spread them out optimally.
The only other option seems to be dropping a macro hatch immediately, constant threat of the P army, trading roaches/lings for forcefields as efficiently as possible without losing your mob, then evacuating the 3rd once the P finally gets to it. Once you lose the 3rd you need the macro hatch in order to keep up optimal production. Hopefully by this point they won't have enough force fields forcing P to turn around or lose their army. If Z can force P back without losing all their drones they can quickly drop the hatch again, scout the Protoss' follow up and ready to either crush a follow up push or match an expansion by taking a 4th and tech to the ever obnoxious broods
Another option would be to allocate 16~ roaches to counter attacking forcing the P to either come back and defend, or to leave a full energy sentry behind plus possible warp ins in their base, either way you can still run away from P and you've denied 4 force fields for no losses (and have roaches behind the P army ready to flank and harry them), and potentially greatly delaying the push allowing you to have a maxed roach army and some banked resources for remaxing.
In closing, thanks so much to soLremarK for the guide, and I'm eagerly waiting to see what Z comes up with in response.
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Analysed the first replay for my own play, figured I'd share these benchmarks in case they help anyone.
Chronoboosts: All on Probes until 44 probes. You should use 12 Chronoboosts on Probes if you scout their third in time and don't need a CB on a Sentry. Then 3 CB's on +1 Armor. When +1 Armor is complete, CB gateways.
Timings:
(This assumes a double scout)
Core: 4:35 Robo: 6:15 Third and fourth gas: 7:00 +1 Armor: 7:40 4th-6th Gate: 8:20. (He threw up the 7th gate slightly later...I don't know why, maybe to deny scouting.) Prism finishes: 10:05
Macro benchmarks:
44 probes and 2 Sentries at 7:30 44 probes, 14 Stalkers, 6 Sentries, 2 Immortals, 1 Warp Prism at 10:30. (Outside opponent's third.)
So if you don't have 44 workers by 7:30, your problem is economy. If you don't have the 50 army supply by 10:30, your problem is production.
Hope this helps!
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Im definitely going to try this one out.
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On April 23 2012 21:07 SmuZ wrote: As a zerg I completly crush everything that doesn't includes void ray or colossi or both
You're amazing.
Nice guide! Hope to face this on ladder a bit. I think the chance of success for this build is very map dependent. Then again I guess all all-ins are.
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Ok so i just tried this against a top diamond zerg. Granted it was the first time i tried this build. but holy shit. I owned him so hard it was ridiculous. Thanks for this!
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Question about this build. I know that timing is very important on this build. but from my understanding of the game if I should still try to drop a Pylon to block zergs expo right? or do i not want to do that because it will slow my tech as well n since im going for timing i dont want to do that.?
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Hm I've lost my last 3 PvZs because Zerg was getting maxed around 12 mins (Stephano style). My push did too little; I ran out of FFs before I did enough damage.
Any tips vs this Zerg build? I'm personally thinking of going for a 3rd and keep defending my bases while I tech to Blink/Colossi.
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On May 02 2012 07:23 Canyarion wrote: Hm I've lost my last 3 PvZs because Zerg was getting maxed around 12 mins (Stephano style). My push did too little; I ran out of FFs before I did enough damage.
Any tips vs this Zerg build? I'm personally thinking of going for a 3rd and keep defending my bases while I tech to Blink/Colossi.
Link replay's, I'm interested in seeing zergs defending it. Your push should hit before 12min btw.
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On April 25 2012 06:54 Rivkeh wrote:Z has a glaring weakness at the 11 minute mark (on 3 base), and thats too tempting not to exploit.
What do you mean by glaring weakness at 11 min? If any time, 11-11:30 is the time a 3base hatch would WANT to be attacked cause that's the point where zergs gets maxed out. Attacks at 7-9 min are way more brutal since that's when Zergs haven't starrted unit production yet.
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This is not working anymore at high levels. Korean Z's now know how to stop this, and is pretty simple.
I've seen yesterday Sase trying immortal sentry timing and he got crushed the 3 games i saw him using it, all 3 by the same Z response.
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On May 07 2012 13:00 Belha wrote: This is not working anymore at high levels. Korean Z's now know how to stop this, and is pretty simple.
I've seen yesterday Sase trying immortal sentry timing and he got crushed the 3 games i saw him using it, all 3 by the same Z response.
Really? What response.
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I've been doing this build but added my own twist to it instead of chronoboosting the probes so much, i chrono out 4 immortals instead of two and also warp gate ( should i not chrono warp gate, and instead chrono probes? ), so that spine walls and roaches have absolute no effect to me.. i feel like its soso much stronger, but the only problem to this is that i get recked by muta tech if he has it ( i move out @ around 11 i believe instead of 10-10:30 ) i only have about 10 stalkers when i move out instead of your 20. also when i move out i get a obs etc.. do you think this is viable? im a 800 pt masters atm and it has been working very well on every map, but the only time ive lost is against people who get mutas etc, cuz my stalker count isnt as high, even though i try to warp in only stalkers, except when i see alot of lings, but thats usually when they have mutas so i get messed up
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On June 01 2012 19:15 DarKcS wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2012 13:00 Belha wrote: This is not working anymore at high levels. Korean Z's now know how to stop this, and is pretty simple.
I've seen yesterday Sase trying immortal sentry timing and he got crushed the 3 games i saw him using it, all 3 by the same Z response. Really? What response.
would like to know aswell...
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On March 31 2012 09:48 NrGmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2012 08:33 VoirDire wrote:On March 31 2012 08:26 TangSC wrote:On March 31 2012 08:23 CecilSunkure wrote:Hey I remember playing you on ladder and you asked how to write guides Thanks for taking the time to write this up! Have you considered attacking a minute later with blink and +2? I feel the combination of those two is much more effective than a slightly earlier attack and +1 armor. Have to agree, +2 blink all-ins ftw A 2 base 12 minute attack with no initial pressure? Way to late imho. Zergs can very well be maxed at that point. I think 11 minute is the latest a 2 base all-in should hit. In fact, I think 9-10 min with 3 immortals and +1 attack is stronger. I have to agree with Voirdire here and disagree with cecil and tang. - The earliest you can hit with immortals, +2, and blink is 12minutes. If you hit after 11 minutes without early pressure, any zerg will be free to drone to 60-65 and then mass units to hold this off.
- Getting blink/+2 also reduces your sentry count and you don't even get that many stalkers to utilize blink.
- The strength of this build is forcefields + immortals. Blink doesn't synergize well with these 2 other units/abilities. You're relying on forcefields to prevent damage, not blink
I've tried both this build and another version that Sage used vs a TSL zerg in this GSTL and I have to say that I prefer that one much better. The OP shold take a look at that one. The difference between that build and this one are as follows: Sage opens some variation of zealot/stalker/stalker for initial gateway pressure then follows it up with a warp prism for warp prism pressure. He then goes for obs then 3 immortals off of 3 gas and doesn't get +1 armor. I feel it's a better, more lean build, because you put on more pressure earlier and get 3 immortals instead of 2, because you skip the first sentry thus allowing you to build your robo faster. The disadvantage is that you have less sentry energy and don't have +1 armor in your push. Finally, I think it might be useful if you benchmark all the robo timings: when you drop the robo, when each of the robo units start and come out. When I was working on this build, I found that was very helpful.
Personally I do a 4 gate +1 zealot timing attack, and transition into a 7 gate +2 blink stalker immortal allin. After the attack, I warp in sentries, start my upgrades, get immortals and add 3 gates.
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Yeah, I use this build on mid-high masterlevel everytime on small maps against zerg and i have never lost with it!
it´s so superstrong, but you need the right timing or the zerg will kill you with ease.
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Hmm what is the ideal timing for this push? I mean i am pretty sure i have done everything correctly and i attacked at 11:10 and i got overruned by roaches even though i cut his army in half with forcefields.
I post replay i would apprecite if someone can tell me what i did wrong cuz i dont have clue :p Maybe i could use forcefields better but except that i dont know. This situation happense to me everytime i use this build. That was the main reason why i completely stopped using it for some time. Help will be appreciated!
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Usually 2 immortals +1 is the recommended timing because you want to hit before the Zerg gets to 160 food. lol.
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On June 21 2012 23:45 DarKcS wrote: Usually 2 immortals +1 is the recommended timing because you want to hit before the Zerg gets to 160 food. lol. i meant the ideal attack time. When to push or if i lost cuz some other reason...
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The ideal timing for this push is to move out at 10:30 with 14 Stalkers, 6 Sentries, 2 Immortals, a Warp Prism, and 48 Probes. At 11:00 when one hits, one should have 20+ Stalkers. At 7:30, one should have 48 probes and 2 sentries. I think this is correct. If I'm wrong, you'll quickly know about it. The best way to get a correct answer is to get an incorrect one first, then people leap on you
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I think it's 44 probes.
/leap
I like this build though, I've done it a couple of times as my first foray into FFE builds and won each time. Thanks, OP.
Edit/ I did feel a little dirty doing it the first time, though. He even had hydras out and it didn't make a difference.
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If I begin a game thinking i'm going through with this build no matter what...but my zerg opponent stays on 2 base, what do i do?
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You can't continue with the build, it's just that simple. You need to defend against the all-in or fast mutas that are coming.
aZealot: You're right. It is. Herp derp.
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I usually open up with a 4 gate +1 zealot pressure personally and add on the robo before hand and then follow it up with this push, it causes the zerg to have a lot weaker economy and worst case scenario you start slightly behind which you can catch up with good FF.
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You know what makes this build really good? Making a Stargate instead of a Robo, and making VoidRays instead of Immortals. You have to drop proxy pylons, which is a drawback. But the build can be stopped once the sentries are either sniped or out of energy (if the zerg scouts it, and is good) because immortals can be focused down by roaches (or surrounded by lings). Neither of those things can happen with Voidrays. Something I just started playing around with, and I haven't gotten a full build order worked out yet only doing this build or slight variants with a stargate substituted for robo, VRs substituted for immortals, and proxy pylons substituted for prism, but I can see how there might be something there - the only real options for zerg are hydras or queens, because mutas would take too long with him already committed to roach/ling and aren't good vs mass stalker anyway, and spore crawlers can't move, so they just die to ground army then VRs come in. and both hydras and queens are gas heavy and slow, plus cut down on his roach count, which is good for zealot stalker sentry. just a thought.
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On June 26 2012 11:11 Masvidal wrote: You know what makes this build really good? Making a Stargate instead of a Robo, and making VoidRays instead of Immortals. You have to drop proxy pylons, which is a drawback. But the build can be stopped once the sentries are either sniped or out of energy (if the zerg scouts it, and is good) because immortals can be focused down by roaches (or surrounded by lings). Neither of those things can happen with Voidrays. Something I just started playing around with, and I haven't gotten a full build order worked out yet only doing this build or slight variants with a stargate substituted for robo, VRs substituted for immortals, and proxy pylons substituted for prism, but I can see how there might be something there - the only real options for zerg are hydras or queens, because mutas would take too long with him already committed to roach/ling and aren't good vs mass stalker anyway, and spore crawlers can't move, so they just die to ground army then VRs come in. and both hydras and queens are gas heavy and slow, plus cut down on his roach count, which is good for zealot stalker sentry. just a thought.
All that requires more gas which means less sentries, also he can ignore your voids and kill you.
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On June 26 2012 11:11 Masvidal wrote: You know what makes this build really good? Making a Stargate instead of a Robo, and making VoidRays instead of Immortals. You have to drop proxy pylons, which is a drawback. But the build can be stopped once the sentries are either sniped or out of energy (if the zerg scouts it, and is good) because immortals can be focused down by roaches (or surrounded by lings). Neither of those things can happen with Voidrays. Something I just started playing around with, and I haven't gotten a full build order worked out yet only doing this build or slight variants with a stargate substituted for robo, VRs substituted for immortals, and proxy pylons substituted for prism, but I can see how there might be something there - the only real options for zerg are hydras or queens, because mutas would take too long with him already committed to roach/ling and aren't good vs mass stalker anyway, and spore crawlers can't move, so they just die to ground army then VRs come in. and both hydras and queens are gas heavy and slow, plus cut down on his roach count, which is good for zealot stalker sentry. just a thought.
Genius has an excellent void ray into gateway all-in build, it hits with 2-3 void rays and +1 attack around 10:00 mark iirc. Immortals are a lot stronger than void rays vs roaches, but voids are better at denying scouting, forcing different reactions, and you can hit a bit faster.
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Since using this build I have a 100% win ratio in pvz. No one has even come close to defending it despite being buffverlord scouted every time. I love doing this because it puts everything into the protoss's hands, if you can't execute you will get wrecked by smelly roaches.
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So from a Diam Z PoV, i tried everything against this from a 3base opening, Roach/hydra, roach/ling, Ling/infestor and absolutely nothing stop this So i feel the need to ask, what exactly stop this all-in ?
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This build absolutely can be defended by good Master-level Zergs who have seen it before and know how to react; generally it's just about being speedling-heavy, and with Roaches making your FIRST and MOST IMPORTANT priority to target down sentries and only sentries if at all humanly possible. The quicker the sentries go down, the quicker zerglings can get a good surround on Stalkers/Immortals, and remaining/reinforcing Roaches take care of Zealots. It's an amazing all-in, but if you face a good Zerg and don't pressure him before hitting, it is defensible. At the highest levels, Zergs are seeing dozens of variants of the Immortal/Sentry 2 base all-in, and are learning how to defend it. If you want to execute this or a similar all-in at a high level, you're probably going to have to pressure off of 4 gates first, to force units or maybe an early Roach Warren, keep his econ from going out of control, etc. Delaying his expansion as long as you can early game helps, as well.
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On June 26 2012 12:28 RemarK wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2012 11:11 Masvidal wrote: You know what makes this build really good? Making a Stargate instead of a Robo, and making VoidRays instead of Immortals. You have to drop proxy pylons, which is a drawback. But the build can be stopped once the sentries are either sniped or out of energy (if the zerg scouts it, and is good) because immortals can be focused down by roaches (or surrounded by lings). Neither of those things can happen with Voidrays. Something I just started playing around with, and I haven't gotten a full build order worked out yet only doing this build or slight variants with a stargate substituted for robo, VRs substituted for immortals, and proxy pylons substituted for prism, but I can see how there might be something there - the only real options for zerg are hydras or queens, because mutas would take too long with him already committed to roach/ling and aren't good vs mass stalker anyway, and spore crawlers can't move, so they just die to ground army then VRs come in. and both hydras and queens are gas heavy and slow, plus cut down on his roach count, which is good for zealot stalker sentry. just a thought. Genius has an excellent void ray into gateway all-in build, it hits with 2-3 void rays and +1 attack around 10:00 mark iirc. Immortals are a lot stronger than void rays vs roaches, but voids are better at denying scouting, forcing different reactions, and you can hit a bit faster.
What GSL games does he do that in?
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On June 26 2012 11:11 Masvidal wrote: You know what makes this build really good? Making a Stargate instead of a Robo, and making VoidRays instead of Immortals. You have to drop proxy pylons, which is a drawback. But the build can be stopped once the sentries are either sniped or out of energy (if the zerg scouts it, and is good) because immortals can be focused down by roaches (or surrounded by lings). Neither of those things can happen with Voidrays. Something I just started playing around with, and I haven't gotten a full build order worked out yet only doing this build or slight variants with a stargate substituted for robo, VRs substituted for immortals, and proxy pylons substituted for prism, but I can see how there might be something there - the only real options for zerg are hydras or queens, because mutas would take too long with him already committed to roach/ling and aren't good vs mass stalker anyway, and spore crawlers can't move, so they just die to ground army then VRs come in. and both hydras and queens are gas heavy and slow, plus cut down on his roach count, which is good for zealot stalker sentry. just a thought.
I disagreed though. Stargate play are easily defended now since zerg has adapted to it. All you need is some queens and roaches and a few spores to defend these stargate with gateway push. Personally, i find it much easier to defend compared to the sentry immortal push.
People have shifted more towards robo play since the Stephano 12 min max roach became popular.
A early 4 gate +1 pressure on the third of zerg and the followup of robo with 3 immortals or 2 immortals with warp prism is a really strong all-in compared to the void ray+gateway all-in IMO.
To beat the sentry/immortal all-in, you must know it is coming before hand AND ENGAGE his sentry/immortal with your lings to force out forcefields when he pushes out or threaten to counterattack and also snipe some sentries since they are they key in the pushes. If you managed to snipe most of the sentries and force out lots of forcefield,you probably hold the push much much easier.
Most zerg make the mistakes of building spines and making mass roaches with lings try to beat the army head on which you are not supposed to do. You must flank his army and bait out forcefield and continuously produces more roaches+ lings until you have enough to overwhelm him.
Most people make this mistake
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I just saw Grubby do pretty much this exact same build, but with chrono he managed to get 3 immortals instead of two. Timing was still around the same.
Makes it even that much stronger.
I just tried getting one more immortal and it makes this all in even scarier.
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This build is very strong, because barring tremendous mistakes, zerg cannot kill a protoss army straight up unless they have broodlords. The whole issue stems from the fact that the counter to the stalker and the immortal is the zergling. But the zergling can't be effective since protoss moves in a ball. It's incredibly horrible design, but that's the game we've been given.
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On July 02 2012 08:11 jdsowa wrote: This build is very strong, because barring tremendous mistakes, zerg cannot kill a protoss army straight up unless they have broodlords. The whole issue stems from the fact that the counter to the stalker and the immortal is the zergling. But the zergling can't be effective since protoss moves in a ball. It's incredibly horrible design, but that's the game we've been given.
I'm sorry, but that's a false statement. Zerg can absolutely stop this build. Good flanks, focus of sentries, and if they went roach hydra, sniping the warp prism.
Not saying this is easy to stop obviously, but you need broodlords to stop this???? Please
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Is this build still viable? Or should I try the build Parting used at BWC?
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