No chrono's at all are used on warp gate. All chronos are spent on probes until probe production is cut, then all chrono's on +1 weapons when it is started. Why would you chrono warp gate anyway? I mean, you're not attacking until 8:15, so what's the point.

Lupita

United States290 Posts

February 27 2012 23:01 GMT

#64

On February 28 2012 07:40 Forbidden17 wrote:

Show nested quote +

Then just scout? If you can't confirm then don't do it, but if you can confirm you're not getting all-inned then go ahead and try this build.

You missed the point, and what you wrote is pretty much exactly what I meant. The problem is that this build is very precise, and sometimes you can't get perfect scouting information. The reason Huk was doing this very tight build order based timing attack is because he knows exactly how Ret plays with the quick 3rd hatch and massive droning.

paintfive

785 Posts

February 28 2012 00:52 GMT

#65

On February 28 2012 08:01 Lupita wrote:

Show nested quote +

it honestly isnt that hard of a BO to execute. just scout with your 1st probe or make a zealot.
edit: variations of this have been around forever

Borkbokbork

United States123 Posts

February 28 2012 01:25 GMT

#66

How does he get the forward pylon placed?

unit

United States2621 Posts

February 28 2012 01:46 GMT

#67

On February 28 2012 10:25 Borkbokbork wrote:
How does he get the forward pylon placed?

there are several methods to use
1. you can send out a second probe early
2. you can keep your initial scouting probe alive and go somewhere where lings don't check as much
3. bring a probe with your army

i generally try to use all 3 with a push like this just to ensure that i have a pylon down, but if you can get away with not bringing a probe out with your army and the zerg sees that there is no probe then his natural reaction is that it is not an allin, rather just a poke -unless he has seen the gateway count...which if he has just expand and fake pressure while preparing to hold off a few strong waves of attacks from units he was forced to make...or just have godly forcefields but that helps either way

oOOoOphidian

United States1402 Posts

February 28 2012 11:15 GMT

#68

One glaring weakness is that you have no way to deny scouting at all if you follow the build, so an overlord can simply see everything. In practice games it became apparent that a style like Zenio's hydra/ling crushes this pretty handily, while a muta followup also makes it quite hard to transition out as well.

TokO

Norway577 Posts

February 28 2012 11:19 GMT

#69

Just have a question, how early does this strike?

Ruscour

5233 Posts

February 28 2012 11:27 GMT

#70

This build is great. The only downside (aside from instadeath to cheese) is that you have two stalkers to prevent scouting of 8 gateways. I suppose that's just experience and I'll get a better grip of where to position stalkers over time.

It's literally a double 4gate with 1/1. You slam out a ton of units and collect your victory.

This does really well against muta play as well because it hits before they're out (and if they're saving up they're dead) and even if they do get mutas out you can warp in back home. It doesn't have the fear of a lot of two base tech all-ins.

Checkm8

Japan627 Posts

February 28 2012 11:46 GMT

#71

Yeah, I've seen MC do this in the GSL, just forgot the game.
If scouting is good, then you don't have to worry about anything from zerg except 6 pool imo.
If you scout no expansion, then go for MC's 2 base opening to voids, timing is real nice to roach-ling all-in.
If you do scout an expansion, go ahead and try this build!

snively

United States1159 Posts

March 01 2012 01:12 GMT

#72

For all of you who want to see HuK do this in a real game, he just did it on his stream, so it should be saved on twitch's archive.
http://www.twitch.tv/eghuk/videos
sorry i can't give a direct link, but hes still streaming, so ...yeah.
it should be ~40 minutes in, on shakuras

ill update tommorrow with a direct link.

Notes on what he did:
pretty standard forge fe, he finished the wall completely and made two stalkers rallied outside of his base (no zealot)
stayed on 2 gas for a long time.
he actually made 7 gates total, so it wasnt an 8gate.
he got +1 atk pretty early, no chrono.
one surprising thing: he DIDNT make a proxy pylon for a long time, he just made units right outside his base and rallied them to the zerg.
he poked up the ramp a couple of times (both ramps, natural and 3rd)
he had the cannon in his wall kill one of his gates so he could escape, and ONLY then did he make proxy pylons, right next to the zergs main.
His army hung around for a hwile, but he only attacked at around 10:30

he took his 3rd and 4th gasses a little before attacking, and he had a probe ready to make his third
...but he didnt take his 3rd base because he just won ^_^

his army composiiton was as follows:
2 stalkers
2 stalkers 7 zealots
2 stalkers 14 zealots
2 stalkers 14 zealots 7 sentries
~8 or so stalkers, 14 zealots, 7 sentries
attack

the zerg made a lot of spines and roaches and lings, but huk forcefielded the ramp and kind of smashed everything, warping in only stalkers from that point

edit:
here is the direct link:
http://www.twitch.tv/eghuk/b/310199612
he does this on shakuras at 29:30 and also metalopolis at 1:11:00
and probably more but those are the only two I saw

Kasp

Canada13 Posts

March 01 2012 01:37 GMT

#73

I'm going to love trying this when I get out of work camp, this might even be an amazing build for 2v2 as well
i'll have to try it out on my zerg partner.

Kasp

Canada13 Posts

March 01 2012 01:44 GMT

#74

oh, and he just streamed one of these 8gates, so watch his stream to find out how he does it

weikor

Austria580 Posts

March 01 2012 01:48 GMT

#75

this build is insanely strong vs all quick 3 hatch strats. Especially on maps where your 3rd and main are pretty far apart.

Placing a pylon to warp into his main sneaking a few units past his natural - and using some warpins to spread his roaches and zerglings out requires insane judgement and multitasking from the zerg.

After experimenting with a way to counter it - 2 spinecrawlers at the third and start making units early enough make it hard to attack multiple sides.

BoxedLunch

United States387 Posts

March 01 2012 02:12 GMT

#76

am i the only one bothered by the fact that HuK does this same all-in every SINGLE PvZ?

seems like it would become bad after a while...

bennyaus

Australia1833 Posts

March 01 2012 02:25 GMT

#77

On March 01 2012 11:12 BoxedLunch wrote:
am i the only one bothered by the fact that HuK does this same all-in every SINGLE PvZ?

seems like it would become bad after a while...

It's fantastic for him to have this in his repertoire, particularly if he can make it look similar to other builds so that it keeps the Zerg scouting. Fantastic ladder build for grinding out games, too.

I don't see a downside, provided he practices other builds too. If people can't find a weakness on the ladder to it, then why stop. I think HuK would continue doing it until he sees people exploiting it, and then he will tailor it a bit so that it has less weaknesses to the reactive responses. There is nothing better than a player changing their play to play you, because it puts you in the advantage if you're aware of what he's doing and can change your build up.

RRDjhonn

34 Posts

March 02 2012 21:05 GMT

#78

if you check twitch's archive you can see that he not only do this strat , it seams that he run 8 gate in same maps , normally zerg favored. You can see huk going for fast 3rd in entombed and c. kingdom.
Why should him stop doing it? xD i really love this, is so cool smash zergs that believe to be safe taking 3rd at 4:30 and if you were not crushing him would be going for the fourth. especially if they take gold like 3rd even like natural ,it really piss me off.

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