On February 26 2012 23:43 eYeball wrote:
I think he does it because he has very good micro, obviously you cannot do this on the ladder and expect the same results unless your micro is your best strength or one of the better in the game.I feel from looking at the build also it's nothing new just kind of a build to throw your opponent off guard if he hasn't already faced it before or something.

I disagree, if his micro is necessary to beat the top pro players, it clearly isn't necessary for mid-masters or below.

quillian

United States318 Posts

February 26 2012 17:27 GMT

#23

rep/vod please! I want to see his early game unit comp from the initial gateway, and proxy pylon placement.

RaiD.RaynoR

United States294 Posts

February 26 2012 17:36 GMT

#24

8 gate is just another all in. It is just too frustrating to defend against because you would require a ridiculous amount of spines or even hydra tech to defend this. roach ling vs 1/1 + FF is just never going to work. I honestly want to see HuK go for more of a late game oriented style for once. Its common to see Toss 2 base vs all matchups but come on i just wanna see a mothership again! Thankfully theres always WhiteRa :D

Cyro

United Kingdom20285 Posts

February 26 2012 17:41 GMT

#25

On February 27 2012 02:36 RaiD.RaynoR wrote:
8 gate is just another all in. It is just too frustrating to defend against because you would require a ridiculous amount of spines or even hydra tech to defend this. roach ling vs 1/1 + FF is just never going to work. I honestly want to see HuK go for more of a late game oriented style for once. Its common to see Toss 2 base vs all matchups but come on i just wanna see a mothership again! Thankfully theres always WhiteRa :D

HuK tried for quite a while to make mass sentry and early 3'rd base styles work, look at the dreamhack summer finals, but in the end it simply gives you worse results than playing unpredictably with an agressive focus, and as long as that is true or until something very major clicks in PvZ, the metagame will be heavily centered around 2 base all ins.

I had hoped Anion Pulse Cannons would open up a new turtly stargate style (Z has trouble attacking into air units before the lategame if you do not overcommit to them) with a focus on void ray/carrier lategame with phoenix's for harassment (the upgrade being a big incentive to drop fleet beacon) kinda like the relationship between tank/hellion or tank/vulture in mech, a small to medium sized phoenix fleet is very dangerous, but i have not seen that many PvZ's in winter arena and im not sure if it has even been researched in a tournament game since the patch quite honestly.

Im sure if somebody did this kind of play, it would immidiatly be all over reddit and TL, but heres to hoping that there has just not been enough time since the patch to develop something like this and it redefines PvZ as one of the longest macro and harass focused matchups in the game.

Quote me if it happens (:

ThatGuy89

United Kingdom1968 Posts

February 26 2012 17:46 GMT

#26

how does he manage to get zeals into 3 different mineral lines?
i didnt see a robo mentioned anywhere for warp prism, and unless the zerg is just awful, he shouldnt be allowing zealots to get into all 3 mineral lines

any replays/vods of this?

snively

United States1159 Posts

February 26 2012 19:40 GMT

#27

On February 27 2012 02:46 ThatGuy89 wrote:
how does he manage to get zeals into 3 different mineral lines?
i didnt see a robo mentioned anywhere for warp prism, and unless the zerg is just awful, he shouldnt be allowing zealots to get into all 3 mineral lines

any replays/vods of this?

i havent seen him do this specifically yet, but i would assume he sends the zealots with his army until the whole army is right on top of the hatchery, and then spits up his forces while fighting off the zerg.

If the zergs army intercepts huks army, obviously he cant do this, but if there are multiple attack routes to the third and natural, it shouldnt be too hard to get into the mineral line with some zealots.

i would like to see some replays too, though

kcdc

United States2311 Posts

February 26 2012 19:59 GMT

#28

The difference between Huk's 8 gate and the more common 7 gates isn't the extra gate--it's the timing that the attack hits. For a normal 7 gate, a lot of players will build up their sentry count to 6+ sentries to gather energy, then begin warping in stalkers, and once their ball is big enough to fight lings with sentry+stalker, they'll move out into the map and try to beat Z's roaches and lings with positioning and forcefields. The attack might start posturing at 9:30 or so with a full-on engagement after 10 minutes.

Huk does a mineral-heavy 8 gate where he sends out a few zealots to stake out a position, warps in a pylon, and then starts warping in 8 units at a time right next to Z's base as WG tech finishes at about 8:00. The attack is much smaller, and it doesn't have a stockpile of forcefields, but it hits with zealots (which means you don't need a big army to deal with lings), and its timing doesn't allow Z time to drone up and prepare.

At 7:40, Z will typically have 4 lings. At 8:30, they'll have a handful of roaches and maybe 10 lings. At 10:00, they have a respectable army with roach speed on the way. At 12:00, they can be close to maxed on speed roaches. The timing of P's attack makes a huge difference.

roymarthyup

1442 Posts

February 26 2012 20:32 GMT

#29

i think a way for zerg to play heavy macro and be safe against this is do the usual 3hatch vs FFE build, but instead get pretty much zero lings (other than whats absolutely needed), no lingspeed, and instead use that money on a faster roach warren which should complete at maybe 6:20

the zerg will make pure roaches as his combat units, with a fast third queen to start dropping tumors and spreading creep. slow roaches on creep arent that bad against stalkers, and once you scout its heavy stalker composition then you can react accordingly. the fact that you get the faster roach warren in exchange for speed should make you safe against the fast zealot pressure

however with no speedlings its impossible to pressure a fast third from the toss. but you could take a fast fourth when you scout a fast third and be safe, however the trade off of this type of build is you indeed let a toss get 3 free bases

Falcon-sw

United States324 Posts

February 26 2012 21:37 GMT

#30

Nexus first dies so easy to Zerg 11 pool. Especially on an open map like Metalopolis.

WeddingEpisode

United States356 Posts

February 26 2012 22:05 GMT

#31

I don't want to derail here, but is MLG happening now?
WHy isn't it listed as being "on air"?

roymarthyup

1442 Posts

February 26 2012 22:22 GMT

#32

mlg is PPV avent and teamliquid feels only free events should be listed on the schedule

MLG's future events are mostly going to be free and will be listed. but events with no free option everyone feels its best to not list it

Risen

United States7927 Posts

February 26 2012 22:26 GMT

#33

On February 27 2012 06:37 Falcon-sw wrote:
Nexus first dies so easy to Zerg 11 pool. Especially on an open map like Metalopolis.

I'm assuming he still 9 scouts, so he would see the eleven pool and react accordingly

Belha

Italy2850 Posts

February 26 2012 22:58 GMT

#34

The 8 gate is an old build.
The "new" stuff is the timming. Throwing a 30-40 ealier gate allows to take the z out of his usual game. A lot of top P's are doing this in the ffe.

TelecoM

United States10671 Posts

February 26 2012 23:01 GMT

#35

Burrowed roaches / speedlings / spines , spines / muta ling will destroy this every single time, I have tried this same build as toss and good zerg will just get burrowed roaches and you're done.

Flanq

United Kingdom2694 Posts

February 26 2012 23:09 GMT

#36

On February 27 2012 08:01 GGzerG wrote:
Burrowed roaches / speedlings / spines , spines / muta ling will destroy this every single time, I have tried this same build as toss and good zerg will just get burrowed roaches and you're done.

You won't have burrowed roaches at 8:00/8:30, and Ret is a pretty good zerg.

Ryndika

1489 Posts

February 27 2012 16:11 GMT

#37

So anyone got vod or guide how this is done?

I seem to not get fast enough zealot warp..

Alfalfa

Canada26 Posts

February 27 2012 16:48 GMT

#38

I used a similar build for a while and it is very strong especially if the zerg goes for a double expand. If you hit the right timing, you just roll over the enemy. I never tried 8 gates though, I used only 6 so I guess 8 is even stronger.

Cyro

United Kingdom20285 Posts

February 27 2012 16:50 GMT

#39

On February 28 2012 01:48 Alfalfa wrote:
I used a similar build for a while and it is very strong especially if the zerg goes for a double expand. If you hit the right timing, you just roll over the enemy. I never tried 8 gates though, I used only 6 so I guess 8 is even stronger.

That would be an average 6gate, which has been part of the matchup for well over a year, not specifically the stuff HuK is doing

Lorch

Germany3682 Posts

February 27 2012 16:54 GMT

#40

VOD won't be available for free till later this week/early next week. If you purchased the mlg winter arena you can't find it in game 2 or 3 between ret and huk on metalopolis, I think it's winners round 3 or 4.

Gonna try this build next time I ladder, though I can't see myself confortably open 15 nexus/15 forge. The special part about this is when it hits, I think unless you know your opponnent is doing this exact build you shouldn't be able to hold this when you do gas less 3 base as zerg, unless you can magically deny any proxy pylon.

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