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For those keeping tabs on his ladder builds, it's how he plays nearly every PvZ on his Depression and Sad top 5 GM accounts. As you may know, he doesn't lose much. He also used it just now + Show Spoiler +in MLG arena to beat Ret in game 3 on Metalopolis
He 15nexus/15 forges into about 35 probes. Gets a quick gateway before cannon and then cyber as soon as possible. Seems to make a zealot and 1-2 stalkers (never sentries) off his inital gateway while getting +1 attack and +1 armor. Starts throwing down gates at about 38 supply and then probes up a bit more after they are down and cuts at about ~40. Warps in a ton of zealots and sends them into mineral lines while he microes with his stalkers/sentries/a few zealots against he zerg army.
Seems to be very deadly, but is 8 gates really worth it? Why does he seem to win every game with this while people beat 6 gate all the time? Is he doing this as a response to the meta of quick 3rds and mutas or what? Just looking for somebody with more insight and tactical/strategic knowledge to explain what is going on with this build.
EDIT: or am I simply hero worshipping a 7gate with an extra gateway and different initial gateway units?
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He wasn't mining much gas and was warping in mostly Zealots, that's how he was able to use 8 Gates efficiently, if they had been Stalkers then 8 Gates would be too much if his warp-ins were on time.
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Basically imagine two protoss players 4 gating. That's what the 8 gate is.
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Depending on what you want to warp in, you will need different amounts of gateways.
Warpins + normal worker production + tech = 3-5 Gates
Warpins + Tech OR Worker production = 5-6 gates
Warpins only = 7-8 gates
Zealot sentry compositions obviously reqire more gateways, since your using 2 warpins for 150/100, while a stalker wil only use one for 150 / 50
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From what I can tell, the build seems to use a super-greedy opening to then make a very aggressive, allin-ish attack.
Yes, its very strong, but it would lose to most roach/ling all-ins pretty handily (especially if he can't get the scout off), as well for any 6-11 pools.
I can tell you personally that I would never want to face that particular build on ladder; and if I did, I think I would be forced to roach/ling.
or am I simply hero worshipping a 7gate with an extra gateway and different initial gateway units?
I think...maybe. Seems like Huks variation on the classic 2 base gateway timing that has been around for a long time (from the basic 5 gate with no tech, all the way to 8+ gate, immortal, obs allins, and such).
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On February 26 2012 08:27 DaeWang790 wrote:
Basically imagine two protoss players 4 gating. That's what the 8 gate is.
lol nice
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i used to do this build every game until i got sad from the bm  . it's really difficult to hold off because it hits so early that zerg cannot get a drone lead off 3 base and then out produce which is how they usually hold timings.
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Does anyone have a replay of HuK doing this or could anyone tell me how many assimilators he gets? I'd assume maximum 3 as he is not teching up any further than +1 Attack and Armor.
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On February 26 2012 08:43 JOJOsc2news wrote:
Does anyone have a replay of HuK doing this or could anyone tell me how many assimilators he gets? I'd assume maximum 3 as he is not teching up any further than +1 Attack and Armor.
As I said, it's double the 4 gate. So, usually only 2 gas. MC has an 8 gate build that also only uses two assimilators.
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It's far, far stronger than you guys are giving it credit for, particularly in a non-series format like ladder . That's why it gives HuK his stupid ladder win %.
The protoss ball is scary enough that zerg needs to really work at keeping it from rolling over his army, which means the zealot harass is absolulately GEE FKN GEE. 1/1 zeals in three different mineral lines is simply horrific to deal with even if your main army is not engaged, but with your force mostly tied up in a skirmish mid map or at your main choke, I don't even...
You would need to realise what it was and sac a lot of eco to spines, I can't see any other way since small ling floods will get crunched by 1/1 zeals and incidentally cut off your reinforcements.
In this wise it is far nastier than a 'double 4-gate', but it's apm / multitask requirement is far higher.
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Wow! I just used it for the first time on ladder. The timing is just so strong! Thanks for this
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United Kingdom20285 Posts
You have to remember that gateway counts are a bad way to measure resource spending, 10gate zealots will use less resources than 7gate stalker if you hit production cycles with all of them, and also take into account that high gate counts are often about a burst of units, and not what you can permanantly produce with (You cant even permanantly hold 3gate stalker production on 1 base, not even close with gate chronos, but people 4gate anyway because at the warpgate timing, you CAN afford the fourth stalker, and the timing is all that matters)
It seems like a strong timing in this case.
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have any1 found a replay of the game OP mentioned? haven't been able to locate it anywhere :S have any1 made a BO for this?
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I think he does it because he has very good micro, obviously you cannot do this on the ladder and expect the same results unless your micro is your best strength or one of the better in the game.I feel from looking at the build also it's nothing new just kind of a build to throw your opponent off guard if he hasn't already faced it before or something.
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On February 26 2012 23:43 eYeball wrote:
I think he does it because he has very good micro, obviously you cannot do this on the ladder and expect the same results unless your micro is your best strength or one of the better in the game.I feel from looking at the build also it's nothing new just kind of a build to throw your opponent off guard if he hasn't already faced it before or something.
It's not very hard to do. Shift clicking a few zealots into mineral lines while microing stalkers against roaches is pretty easy. It is probably defendable but is one of those strats that is 10x harder to defend than to be the offender in.
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does anybody have an vod or sth like that?
would be very helpfull for us
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On February 26 2012 08:27 DaeWang790 wrote:
Basically imagine two protoss players 4 gating. That's what the 8 gate is.
... cool just you you dont have forge upgrade on a 4 gate
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On February 26 2012 08:25 ZAiNs wrote:
He wasn't mining much gas and was warping in mostly Zealots, that's how he was able to use 8 Gates efficiently, if they had been Stalkers then 8 Gates would be too much if his warp-ins were on time.
I don't see that as particularly true...
1 base > 4.5 gates fully saturated... That's why you can see 5gates happening off 1 base, when you have 30 probes
I feel as if 8 gates on 2 bases is definitely possible because you essentially are doubling your production, if you chrono out a pile of probes and wait till +1 armour finishes (after +1 attack) I can't see how you wouldn't have enough money to support 7.5 to 8 gates.
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Whats so special about it in comparison to other 8gate allins we have been seeing for quite some time?
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On February 27 2012 01:05 00Visor wrote:
Whats so special about it in comparison to other 8gate allins we have been seeing for quite some time?
thats what i want to know, Any one have a replay or free vod?
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On February 26 2012 23:43 eYeball wrote:
I think he does it because he has very good micro, obviously you cannot do this on the ladder and expect the same results unless your micro is your best strength or one of the better in the game.I feel from looking at the build also it's nothing new just kind of a build to throw your opponent off guard if he hasn't already faced it before or something.
I disagree, if his micro is necessary to beat the top pro players, it clearly isn't necessary for mid-masters or below.
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rep/vod please! I want to see his early game unit comp from the initial gateway, and proxy pylon placement.
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8 gate is just another all in. It is just too frustrating to defend against because you would require a ridiculous amount of spines or even hydra tech to defend this. roach ling vs 1/1 + FF is just never going to work. I honestly want to see HuK go for more of a late game oriented style for once. Its common to see Toss 2 base vs all matchups but come on i just wanna see a mothership again! Thankfully theres always WhiteRa :D
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United Kingdom20285 Posts
On February 27 2012 02:36 RaiD.RaynoR wrote:
8 gate is just another all in. It is just too frustrating to defend against because you would require a ridiculous amount of spines or even hydra tech to defend this. roach ling vs 1/1 + FF is just never going to work. I honestly want to see HuK go for more of a late game oriented style for once. Its common to see Toss 2 base vs all matchups but come on i just wanna see a mothership again! Thankfully theres always WhiteRa :D
HuK tried for quite a while to make mass sentry and early 3'rd base styles work, look at the dreamhack summer finals, but in the end it simply gives you worse results than playing unpredictably with an agressive focus, and as long as that is true or until something very major clicks in PvZ, the metagame will be heavily centered around 2 base all ins.
I had hoped Anion Pulse Cannons would open up a new turtly stargate style (Z has trouble attacking into air units before the lategame if you do not overcommit to them) with a focus on void ray/carrier lategame with phoenix's for harassment (the upgrade being a big incentive to drop fleet beacon) kinda like the relationship between tank/hellion or tank/vulture in mech, a small to medium sized phoenix fleet is very dangerous, but i have not seen that many PvZ's in winter arena and im not sure if it has even been researched in a tournament game since the patch quite honestly.
Im sure if somebody did this kind of play, it would immidiatly be all over reddit and TL, but heres to hoping that there has just not been enough time since the patch to develop something like this and it redefines PvZ as one of the longest macro and harass focused matchups in the game.
Quote me if it happens (:
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how does he manage to get zeals into 3 different mineral lines?
i didnt see a robo mentioned anywhere for warp prism, and unless the zerg is just awful, he shouldnt be allowing zealots to get into all 3 mineral lines
any replays/vods of this?
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On February 27 2012 02:46 ThatGuy89 wrote:
how does he manage to get zeals into 3 different mineral lines?
i didnt see a robo mentioned anywhere for warp prism, and unless the zerg is just awful, he shouldnt be allowing zealots to get into all 3 mineral lines
any replays/vods of this?
i havent seen him do this specifically yet, but i would assume he sends the zealots with his army until the whole army is right on top of the hatchery, and then spits up his forces while fighting off the zerg.
If the zergs army intercepts huks army, obviously he cant do this, but if there are multiple attack routes to the third and natural, it shouldnt be too hard to get into the mineral line with some zealots.
i would like to see some replays too, though 
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The difference between Huk's 8 gate and the more common 7 gates isn't the extra gate--it's the timing that the attack hits. For a normal 7 gate, a lot of players will build up their sentry count to 6+ sentries to gather energy, then begin warping in stalkers, and once their ball is big enough to fight lings with sentry+stalker, they'll move out into the map and try to beat Z's roaches and lings with positioning and forcefields. The attack might start posturing at 9:30 or so with a full-on engagement after 10 minutes.
Huk does a mineral-heavy 8 gate where he sends out a few zealots to stake out a position, warps in a pylon, and then starts warping in 8 units at a time right next to Z's base as WG tech finishes at about 8:00. The attack is much smaller, and it doesn't have a stockpile of forcefields, but it hits with zealots (which means you don't need a big army to deal with lings), and its timing doesn't allow Z time to drone up and prepare.
At 7:40, Z will typically have 4 lings. At 8:30, they'll have a handful of roaches and maybe 10 lings. At 10:00, they have a respectable army with roach speed on the way. At 12:00, they can be close to maxed on speed roaches. The timing of P's attack makes a huge difference.
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i think a way for zerg to play heavy macro and be safe against this is do the usual 3hatch vs FFE build, but instead get pretty much zero lings (other than whats absolutely needed), no lingspeed, and instead use that money on a faster roach warren which should complete at maybe 6:20
the zerg will make pure roaches as his combat units, with a fast third queen to start dropping tumors and spreading creep. slow roaches on creep arent that bad against stalkers, and once you scout its heavy stalker composition then you can react accordingly. the fact that you get the faster roach warren in exchange for speed should make you safe against the fast zealot pressure
however with no speedlings its impossible to pressure a fast third from the toss. but you could take a fast fourth when you scout a fast third and be safe, however the trade off of this type of build is you indeed let a toss get 3 free bases
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Nexus first dies so easy to Zerg 11 pool. Especially on an open map like Metalopolis.
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I don't want to derail here, but is MLG happening now?
WHy isn't it listed as being "on air"?
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mlg is PPV avent and teamliquid feels only free events should be listed on the schedule
MLG's future events are mostly going to be free and will be listed. but events with no free option everyone feels its best to not list it
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On February 27 2012 06:37 Falcon-sw wrote:
Nexus first dies so easy to Zerg 11 pool. Especially on an open map like Metalopolis.
I'm assuming he still 9 scouts, so he would see the eleven pool and react accordingly
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The 8 gate is an old build.
The "new" stuff is the timming. Throwing a 30-40 ealier gate allows to take the z out of his usual game. A lot of top P's are doing this in the ffe.
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Burrowed roaches / speedlings / spines , spines / muta ling will destroy this every single time, I have tried this same build as toss and good zerg will just get burrowed roaches and you're done.
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On February 27 2012 08:01 GGzerG wrote:
Burrowed roaches / speedlings / spines , spines / muta ling will destroy this every single time, I have tried this same build as toss and good zerg will just get burrowed roaches and you're done.
You won't have burrowed roaches at 8:00/8:30, and Ret is a pretty good zerg.
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So anyone got vod or guide how this is done?
I seem to not get fast enough zealot warp..
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I used a similar build for a while and it is very strong especially if the zerg goes for a double expand. If you hit the right timing, you just roll over the enemy. I never tried 8 gates though, I used only 6 so I guess 8 is even stronger.
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United Kingdom20285 Posts
On February 28 2012 01:48 Alfalfa wrote:
I used a similar build for a while and it is very strong especially if the zerg goes for a double expand. If you hit the right timing, you just roll over the enemy. I never tried 8 gates though, I used only 6 so I guess 8 is even stronger.
That would be an average 6gate, which has been part of the matchup for well over a year, not specifically the stuff HuK is doing
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VOD won't be available for free till later this week/early next week. If you purchased the mlg winter arena you can't find it in game 2 or 3 between ret and huk on metalopolis, I think it's winners round 3 or 4.
Gonna try this build next time I ladder, though I can't see myself confortably open 15 nexus/15 forge. The special part about this is when it hits, I think unless you know your opponnent is doing this exact build you shouldn't be able to hold this when you do gas less 3 base as zerg, unless you can magically deny any proxy pylon.
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The build is essentially just a super greedy double 4 gate. He used it in the game the OP mentioned as part of his spoiler, because he knows that his opponent plays a very greedy ZvP style.
You build no units other than the initial 1 zealot 2 stalkers (which you use to harass and make them build a few lings and/or spine(s), and you don't even start warping in until the 8 gate is entirely set up, maybe a few sentries here and there to begin building energy, because you won't have a ton of sentires so you need to start building energy quickly.
The beauty of this build against this particular ZvP style, is that since you're just banking money for awhile, you don't need as many probes because you'll be dumping those excess minerals into zealots.
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it's a nice build, he seems to take a fast 3rd instead of all-inning as the 8th gateway gives you that needed production if necessary.
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On February 28 2012 01:54 Lorch wrote:
VOD won't be available for free till later this week/early next week. If you purchased the mlg winter arena you can't find it in game 2 or 3 between ret and huk on metalopolis, I think it's winners round 3 or 4.
Gonna try this build next time I ladder, though I can't see myself comfortably open 15 nexus/15 forge. The special part about this is when it hits, I think unless you know your opponent is doing this exact build you shouldn't be able to hold this when you do gas less 3 base as zerg, unless you can magically deny any proxy pylon.
I was curious about the exact build and did a replay analysis of the vod for you. This build is pretty accurate, I paused several times to make sure. He actually did a 9 gate in this game you've been mentioning.
Game is between Huk and Ret on Mettalopolis. Protoss spawns at 12 o'clock, Zerg spawns at 3 o'clock:
9 pylon at the bottom of ramp
16 Nexus (spending all chrono boost on probes)
16 forge
16 gate
17-18 2nd pylon, double gas, cannon at choke
20 cyber core
23 zealot
27 3rd pylon
30 begin warp gate research / stalker #1 built
*sends zealot towards the watchtower between him and the zerg, pushes the zealot towards the third base to begin harass*
34 Stalker #2 joins in on harass with 1st stalker and zealot
37 starts +1 weapons @ forge (all chrono is now switched to this)
38 8 gateways are built as probe production stops, 2 probes are pulled from gas, making 4 total probes on gas
*pushes towards the edge of the zerg creep with 2 initial stalkers and one zealot, + 5 additional warped in zealots and a probe for a pylon, places a pylon as close to the edge of creep as possible, begins attack as +1 weapons finishes, first three warp-ins are pure zealot, 4th warp in consists of 3 sentries, 2 stalkers, and the rest zealots, fifth warp in is all zealots, he then begins to mix in stalkers along with zealots (i assume he puts probes back onto gas at some point but I'm not sure when, and he never takes his 3rd and 4th gas.*
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You forgot the Gate. 16 Gate before Forge?
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On February 28 2012 02:40 BankTank wrote:
You forgot the Gate. 16 Gate before Forge?
Ya, fixed now, in this game the gate is after the forge, I've seen him do it the other way around though.
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Holy crap thank you Lupita <3 Much appreciated.
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On February 28 2012 02:43 Lorch wrote:
Holy crap thank you Lupita <3 Much appreciated.
Np. I want to try it, but I'm kinda scared, because it 100% dies to a roach ling all in if you don't see it coming.
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On February 28 2012 03:09 TheHansBecker wrote:
This is probably a dumb question, but should you try to block the Zerg's expansion with a pylon block or not?
He does not try to block the expo, he doesn't even send a probe out until after the forge is down. I guess you could, but it might mess with some of the timings.
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edited my post after watching it again, I messed up the gas timings. Should be 100% correct now.
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As a Zerg player, I would like to know the best way to respond to a protoss player going forge FFE. With a build like this, the typical 3 base zerg response would just get stomped, but if you prepare for this and they aren't doing it, it seems like you would out-macroed. What is the best way for a zerg player to handle this?
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On February 28 2012 02:36 Lupita wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 01:54 Lorch wrote:
VOD won't be available for free till later this week/early next week. If you purchased the mlg winter arena you can't find it in game 2 or 3 between ret and huk on metalopolis, I think it's winners round 3 or 4.
Gonna try this build next time I ladder, though I can't see myself comfortably open 15 nexus/15 forge. The special part about this is when it hits, I think unless you know your opponent is doing this exact build you shouldn't be able to hold this when you do gas less 3 base as zerg, unless you can magically deny any proxy pylon. I was curious about the exact build and did a replay analysis of the vod for you. This build is pretty accurate, I paused several times to make sure. He actually did a 9 gate in this game you've been mentioning. Game is between Huk and Ret on Mettalopolis. Protoss spawns at 12 o'clock, Zerg spawns at 3 o'clock: 9 pylon at the bottom of ramp 16 Nexus (spending all chrono boost on probes) 16 forge 16 gate 17-18 2nd pylon, double gas, cannon at choke, & 2nd pylon 20 cyber core 23 zealot 27 3rd pylon 30 begin warp gate research / stalker #1 built *sends zealot towards the watchtower between him and the zerg, pushes the zealot towards the third base to begin harass* 34 Stalker #2 joins in on harass with 1st stalker and zealot 37 starts +1 weapons @ forge (all chrono is now switched to this) 38 8 gateways are built as probe production stops, 2 probes are pulled from gas, making 4 total probes on gas *pushes towards the edge of the zerg creep with 2 initial stalkers and one zealot, + 5 additional warped in zealots and a probe for a pylon, places a pylon as close to the edge of creep as possible, begins attack as +1 weapons finishes, first three warp-ins are pure zealot, 4th warp in consists of 3 sentries, 2 stalkers, and the rest zealots, fifth warp in is all zealots, he then begins to mix in stalkers along with zealots (i assume he puts probes back onto gas at some point but I'm not sure when, and he never takes his 3rd and 4th gas.*
Thanks for this
Just tried it first time in a clanwar and won instantly lol.
A timing at which minute you attack with how many units would be awesome to practise this build if you have one
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On February 28 2012 04:55 Flaiker wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 02:36 Lupita wrote:On February 28 2012 01:54 Lorch wrote:
VOD won't be available for free till later this week/early next week. If you purchased the mlg winter arena you can't find it in game 2 or 3 between ret and huk on metalopolis, I think it's winners round 3 or 4.
Gonna try this build next time I ladder, though I can't see myself comfortably open 15 nexus/15 forge. The special part about this is when it hits, I think unless you know your opponent is doing this exact build you shouldn't be able to hold this when you do gas less 3 base as zerg, unless you can magically deny any proxy pylon. I was curious about the exact build and did a replay analysis of the vod for you. This build is pretty accurate, I paused several times to make sure. He actually did a 9 gate in this game you've been mentioning. Game is between Huk and Ret on Mettalopolis. Protoss spawns at 12 o'clock, Zerg spawns at 3 o'clock: 9 pylon at the bottom of ramp 16 Nexus (spending all chrono boost on probes) 16 forge 16 gate 17-18 2nd pylon, double gas, cannon at choke, & 2nd pylon 20 cyber core 23 zealot 27 3rd pylon 30 begin warp gate research / stalker #1 built *sends zealot towards the watchtower between him and the zerg, pushes the zealot towards the third base to begin harass* 34 Stalker #2 joins in on harass with 1st stalker and zealot 37 starts +1 weapons @ forge (all chrono is now switched to this) 38 8 gateways are built as probe production stops, 2 probes are pulled from gas, making 4 total probes on gas *pushes towards the edge of the zerg creep with 2 initial stalkers and one zealot, + 5 additional warped in zealots and a probe for a pylon, places a pylon as close to the edge of creep as possible, begins attack as +1 weapons finishes, first three warp-ins are pure zealot, 4th warp in consists of 3 sentries, 2 stalkers, and the rest zealots, fifth warp in is all zealots, he then begins to mix in stalkers along with zealots (i assume he puts probes back onto gas at some point but I'm not sure when, and he never takes his 3rd and 4th gas.* Thanks for this Just tried it first time in a clanwar and won instantly lol. A timing at which minute you attack with how many units would be awesome to practise this build if you have one
In the VOD in question, Huk attacks with 6 zealots, 2 stalkers, and his proxy pylon up next to the creep at the zerg base @ 8:15, and then proceeds to warrp in a round of zealots as he attacks.
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Have tried this out. Works perfectly against people going mass mutalisk.
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Beacuse of being close air huk is forced to attack between all the base's instead of specifically at one base. sending zealots to the third and up into the main is a risky investment 3 is enough to take out lings but you need to focus down drones and keep them together so lings don't get a surround. if you can keep them holding hands or even better keeping the lings on one side of the zealots hand holding they'll be almost invincible. +1 kills drones pretty fast as well. the reason why he won is beacuse of the control that huk exhibited killing the roaches with zealots and not getting kited. if you're not able to accomplice that just focus down the hatches and kill lings.
You're going to be odds on going against 3 base's of production and mineing. you have to do a lot of damage or be extremely cost efficent. roaches are what zergs are going to use to beat this or they will just die. killing lings and drones happen really fast but the roaches will cause you no end of problems. If you fail the zerg will take a fourth deny your third and you will lose with no chance of coming back.
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On February 28 2012 07:14 TheHansBecker wrote:
People who have done this or watched Huk: Do you recommend trying to snipe the zerg's third or straight up attacking the zerg's natural? Or does it even matter?
I saw HuK's game against Ret, and despite being a HuK fan it made me want to see him lose as brutally as possible. So, when I saw him crying before facing DRG I was pretty happy. I think it's a 100% lame build.
That being said, the "ideal" situation for an 8 gating Toss player is to force an engagement before the Zerg has fully reacted (ie. before he has his second big cycle of units coming out). A smart Zerg will let his 3rd go down if he knows what build he's facing, and try to accumulate as big an army as possible at his natural and play 2 base vs. 2 base to hold the push. You shouldn't allow this to happen. Since the Stalker/Zealots are more supply efficient than the Roach/Ling combination that will be defending this 99% of the time, you want to hit the natural where his units are to keep him from getting too big of an army. The warp-in mechanic negates his defender's advantage and any units streaming into battle from the 3rd should be isolated and picked off easily. At some point you can likely send 3-4 Zealots to the third to take it out, but the priority needs to be taking out the army and camping his larva to prevent the Zerg from accumulating one big force.
Frankly, I don't think it matters either way, you'll win 80% of your games if you execute the build properly and have any level of micro. The only thing that stops this, when well executed, is if it gets scouted way in advance and the opponent is masterful at sniping your proxying Probes before they can get up any Pylons, or some form of Baneling all-in.
I don't know why I'm helping P players further abuse the warp-in mechanic, but oh well.
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On February 28 2012 02:45 Lupita wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 02:43 Lorch wrote:
Holy crap thank you Lupita <3 Much appreciated. Np. I want to try it, but I'm kinda scared, because it 100% dies to a roach ling all in if you don't see it coming.
Then just scout? If you can't confirm then don't do it, but if you can confirm you're not getting all-inned then go ahead and try this build.
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Interesting build. Does he chrono warpgate research as well?
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On February 28 2012 07:41 Mystgun wrote:
Interesting build. Does he chrono warpgate research as well?
No chrono's at all are used on warp gate. All chronos are spent on probes until probe production is cut, then all chrono's on +1 weapons when it is started. Why would you chrono warp gate anyway? I mean, you're not attacking until 8:15, so what's the point.
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On February 28 2012 07:40 Forbidden17 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 02:45 Lupita wrote:On February 28 2012 02:43 Lorch wrote:
Holy crap thank you Lupita <3 Much appreciated. Np. I want to try it, but I'm kinda scared, because it 100% dies to a roach ling all in if you don't see it coming. Then just scout? If you can't confirm then don't do it, but if you can confirm you're not getting all-inned then go ahead and try this build.
You missed the point, and what you wrote is pretty much exactly what I meant. The problem is that this build is very precise, and sometimes you can't get perfect scouting information. The reason Huk was doing this very tight build order based timing attack is because he knows exactly how Ret plays with the quick 3rd hatch and massive droning.
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On February 28 2012 08:01 Lupita wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 07:40 Forbidden17 wrote:On February 28 2012 02:45 Lupita wrote:On February 28 2012 02:43 Lorch wrote:
Holy crap thank you Lupita <3 Much appreciated. Np. I want to try it, but I'm kinda scared, because it 100% dies to a roach ling all in if you don't see it coming. Then just scout? If you can't confirm then don't do it, but if you can confirm you're not getting all-inned then go ahead and try this build. You missed the point, and what you wrote is pretty much exactly what I meant. The problem is that this build is very precise, and sometimes you can't get perfect scouting information. The reason Huk was doing this very tight build order based timing attack is because he knows exactly how Ret plays with the quick 3rd hatch and massive droning.
it honestly isnt that hard of a BO to execute. just scout with your 1st probe or make a zealot.
edit: variations of this have been around forever
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How does he get the forward pylon placed?
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On February 28 2012 10:25 Borkbokbork wrote:
How does he get the forward pylon placed?
there are several methods to use
1. you can send out a second probe early
2. you can keep your initial scouting probe alive and go somewhere where lings don't check as much
3. bring a probe with your army
i generally try to use all 3 with a push like this just to ensure that i have a pylon down, but if you can get away with not bringing a probe out with your army and the zerg sees that there is no probe then his natural reaction is that it is not an allin, rather just a poke -unless he has seen the gateway count...which if he has just expand and fake pressure while preparing to hold off a few strong waves of attacks from units he was forced to make...or just have godly forcefields but that helps either way
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One glaring weakness is that you have no way to deny scouting at all if you follow the build, so an overlord can simply see everything. In practice games it became apparent that a style like Zenio's hydra/ling crushes this pretty handily, while a muta followup also makes it quite hard to transition out as well.
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Just have a question, how early does this strike?
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This build is great. The only downside (aside from instadeath to cheese) is that you have two stalkers to prevent scouting of 8 gateways. I suppose that's just experience and I'll get a better grip of where to position stalkers over time.
It's literally a double 4gate with 1/1. You slam out a ton of units and collect your victory.
This does really well against muta play as well because it hits before they're out (and if they're saving up they're dead) and even if they do get mutas out you can warp in back home. It doesn't have the fear of a lot of two base tech all-ins.
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Yeah, I've seen MC do this in the GSL, just forgot the game.
If scouting is good, then you don't have to worry about anything from zerg except 6 pool imo.
If you scout no expansion, then go for MC's 2 base opening to voids, timing is real nice to roach-ling all-in.
If you do scout an expansion, go ahead and try this build!
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For all of you who want to see HuK do this in a real game, he just did it on his stream, so it should be saved on twitch's archive.
http://www.twitch.tv/eghuk/videos
sorry i can't give a direct link, but hes still streaming, so ...yeah.
it should be ~40 minutes in, on shakuras
ill update tommorrow with a direct link.
Notes on what he did:
pretty standard forge fe, he finished the wall completely and made two stalkers rallied outside of his base (no zealot)
stayed on 2 gas for a long time.
he actually made 7 gates total, so it wasnt an 8gate.
he got +1 atk pretty early, no chrono.
one surprising thing: he DIDNT make a proxy pylon for a long time, he just made units right outside his base and rallied them to the zerg.
he poked up the ramp a couple of times (both ramps, natural and 3rd)
he had the cannon in his wall kill one of his gates so he could escape, and ONLY then did he make proxy pylons, right next to the zergs main.
His army hung around for a hwile, but he only attacked at around 10:30
he took his 3rd and 4th gasses a little before attacking, and he had a probe ready to make his third
...but he didnt take his 3rd base because he just won ^_^
his army composiiton was as follows:
2 stalkers
2 stalkers 7 zealots
2 stalkers 14 zealots
2 stalkers 14 zealots 7 sentries
~8 or so stalkers, 14 zealots, 7 sentries
attack
the zerg made a lot of spines and roaches and lings, but huk forcefielded the ramp and kind of smashed everything, warping in only stalkers from that point
edit:
here is the direct link:
http://www.twitch.tv/eghuk/b/310199612
he does this on shakuras at 29:30 and also metalopolis at 1:11:00
and probably more but those are the only two I saw
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I'm going to love trying this when I get out of work camp, this might even be an amazing build for 2v2 as well
i'll have to try it out on my zerg partner.
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oh, and he just streamed one of these 8gates, so watch his stream to find out how he does it
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this build is insanely strong vs all quick 3 hatch strats. Especially on maps where your 3rd and main are pretty far apart.
Placing a pylon to warp into his main sneaking a few units past his natural - and using some warpins to spread his roaches and zerglings out requires insane judgement and multitasking from the zerg.
After experimenting with a way to counter it - 2 spinecrawlers at the third and start making units early enough make it hard to attack multiple sides.
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am i the only one bothered by the fact that HuK does this same all-in every SINGLE PvZ?
seems like it would become bad after a while...
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On March 01 2012 11:12 BoxedLunch wrote:
am i the only one bothered by the fact that HuK does this same all-in every SINGLE PvZ?
seems like it would become bad after a while...
It's fantastic for him to have this in his repertoire, particularly if he can make it look similar to other builds so that it keeps the Zerg scouting. Fantastic ladder build for grinding out games, too.
I don't see a downside, provided he practices other builds too. If people can't find a weakness on the ladder to it, then why stop. I think HuK would continue doing it until he sees people exploiting it, and then he will tailor it a bit so that it has less weaknesses to the reactive responses. There is nothing better than a player changing their play to play you, because it puts you in the advantage if you're aware of what he's doing and can change your build up.
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if you check twitch's archive you can see that he not only do this strat , it seams that he run 8 gate in same maps , normally zerg favored. You can see huk going for fast 3rd in entombed and c. kingdom.
Why should him stop doing it? xD i really love this, is so cool smash zergs that believe to be safe taking 3rd at 4:30 and if you were not crushing him would be going for the fourth. especially if they take gold like 3rd even like natural ,it really piss me off.
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EPT
