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Blazinghand
United States25558 Posts
On February 21 2012 08:36 iTzSnypah wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2012 08:16 Blazinghand wrote:On February 21 2012 08:04 iTzSnypah wrote:On February 21 2012 06:03 NrGmonk wrote:
I don't understand the advantages of this over a 1 rax gasless expansion. You say you feel weak to 4 gate pressure, but the gasless expand should do better versus that, because it's more marine heavy and has faster 2nd/3rd rax. If you want to fake some other gas build, you might as well do a reactor expand.
If you follow this build exactly, there is also no way to hold off a 2 base colossi allin. I don't know why you must theorycraft. IF you scout robo bay around the time you start your starport (which i do/if i see robo, i still just make vikings), you'll have ~6 vikings by the time the 2base colossus all-in happens. You will also have 6 barracks of production. Yes you will lose to it sometimes, but not the majority of the time. The emphasis of this build is to scrap by until 3 bases are saturated. (drop.sc/116444) In this replay my opponent goes for the 2base colossus attack (not all-in because he somehow only has 1 colossus), I have 4 vikings and a medivac along with 6 barracks of production by the time he attacks me. On February 21 2012 06:47 vaderseven wrote:On February 21 2012 06:03 NrGmonk wrote:
I don't understand the advantages of this over a 1 rax gasless expansion. You say you feel weak to 4 gate pressure, but the gasless expand should do better versus that, because it's more marine heavy and has faster 2nd/3rd rax. If you want to fake some other gas build, you might as well do a reactor expand.
If you follow this build exactly, there is also no way to hold off a 2 base colossi allin. Ya this build def goes out way too far. It basically assumes the toss does double forge. Of all my TvP's I've played, only 1 has gone Double Forge (And I wasn't even doing this build). I manage to fair more than 60% winrate with this build, with almost all games going past the 16minute mark. Please try the build before you bash it. I just thought I'd come in here and offer some advice: If you're going for a quick third, you really shouldn't be rushing to spend all this gas and tech to marauders. A 1 rax FE without gas is definitely the best. The reason you open with a Marauder Expand is to hit a quick stim timing off 2 base or because you want to be a baller and kill a dude's scouting poke. You don't do it to take a quick third and get crushed by any sort of quick tech. I think you should take a moment to listen to what V7 and Monk have to say, as these guys basically know what's up. That being said, let me break down your replay for you. You play against a low Diamond protoss who goes for a 2 gate expo and attacks you with a gateway army supporting a single colossus at the 13:00 mark while expanding. This is not a 2 base colossus all-in and this game doesn't represent an adequate defense of a 2-base colossus all-in.. I take security in Tech, which if you think about it, that is what Protoss does every game (except PvP luls). I know this may be on the more extreme side, but why not, 60-70% of the Protoss's out there are Passive players who just survive until lategame. Terran has no real use for gas before medivac's/ghosts, and there is usually 3 gas's just sitting around until you get said units. I figured, if i have around the same number of workers that the Protoss has the WHOLE game why is it I'm only on 1-2 gas, while they usually have 4 on 2base? I knew I was already going Bio, so upgrades seemed the way to go. After a few games of just going 2 base 6rax into 3rd, I realized I was rolling everything between 9-12 minutes the Protoss was throwing at me. I decided just to get an earlier 3rd. Which obviously works for me or else I wouldn't have written this guide.
I wouldn't write a guide just because something "works for me". You write a guide because you think it will work for other people. Relying on your opponents to not all-in against a quick third is unwise. If you can't adequately address these claims, and replay a build of you holding a 1 colossus attack that expos and say that that demonstrates the build's watertightness against a 2 base colossus all-in, I don't believe that qualifies as a solid defense of the build's water-tightness.
I understand V7 and Monk are better players than me, but their posts make it seem like my build is incredibly fragile. Which it isn't. Sure it will die 50% of the time a Protoss does a 2Base All-in, but how often does a Protoss do a 2base all-in? Less than 10% of the time for sure. IF they would try the build, THEN say it just plainly dies to a 2base all-in, I would respect that, however they are just blatantly stating it dies to X after a quick glance.
I think this build will die much more than 50% of the time against a 2-base all-in, and I think that a protoss could easily scout a quick third and choose to execute the all-in.
It's worth noting that most all "quick third" builds delay their gas mining to get the third base up more quickly, and are usually producing marines out of a lot of rax to defend the early gateway based all-ins (and allins that include warp prisms, immortals, etc). The quicker your third gets up, the quicker it pays for itself. I do not like the idea of mining and spending all this gas and delaying your third, opening a timing window like that.
EDIT: I also don't like the delayed tech and the buttloads of marauders. I think after an initial 2 marauders with a concussive expand you need to be making marines and getting ready for your 2 base stim all-in.
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United States8476 Posts
On February 21 2012 08:36 iTzSnypah wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2012 08:16 Blazinghand wrote:On February 21 2012 08:04 iTzSnypah wrote:On February 21 2012 06:03 NrGmonk wrote:
I don't understand the advantages of this over a 1 rax gasless expansion. You say you feel weak to 4 gate pressure, but the gasless expand should do better versus that, because it's more marine heavy and has faster 2nd/3rd rax. If you want to fake some other gas build, you might as well do a reactor expand.
If you follow this build exactly, there is also no way to hold off a 2 base colossi allin. I don't know why you must theorycraft. IF you scout robo bay around the time you start your starport (which i do/if i see robo, i still just make vikings), you'll have ~6 vikings by the time the 2base colossus all-in happens. You will also have 6 barracks of production. Yes you will lose to it sometimes, but not the majority of the time. The emphasis of this build is to scrap by until 3 bases are saturated. (drop.sc/116444) In this replay my opponent goes for the 2base colossus attack (not all-in because he somehow only has 1 colossus), I have 4 vikings and a medivac along with 6 barracks of production by the time he attacks me. On February 21 2012 06:47 vaderseven wrote:On February 21 2012 06:03 NrGmonk wrote:
I don't understand the advantages of this over a 1 rax gasless expansion. You say you feel weak to 4 gate pressure, but the gasless expand should do better versus that, because it's more marine heavy and has faster 2nd/3rd rax. If you want to fake some other gas build, you might as well do a reactor expand.
If you follow this build exactly, there is also no way to hold off a 2 base colossi allin. Ya this build def goes out way too far. It basically assumes the toss does double forge. Of all my TvP's I've played, only 1 has gone Double Forge (And I wasn't even doing this build). I manage to fair more than 60% winrate with this build, with almost all games going past the 16minute mark. Please try the build before you bash it. I just thought I'd come in here and offer some advice: If you're going for a quick third, you really shouldn't be rushing to spend all this gas and tech to marauders. A 1 rax FE without gas is definitely the best. The reason you open with a Marauder Expand is to hit a quick stim timing off 2 base or because you want to be a baller and kill a dude's scouting poke. You don't do it to take a quick third and get crushed by any sort of quick tech. I think you should take a moment to listen to what V7 and Monk have to say, as these guys basically know what's up. That being said, let me break down your replay for you. You play against a low Diamond protoss who goes for a 2 gate expo and attacks you with a gateway army supporting a single colossus at the 13:00 mark while expanding. This is not a 2 base colossus all-in and this game doesn't represent an adequate defense of a 2-base colossus all-in.. I take security in Tech, which if you think about it, that is what Protoss does every game (except PvP luls). I know this may be on the more extreme side, but why not, 60-70% of the Protoss's out there are Passive players who just survive until lategame. Terran has no real use for gas before medivac's/ghosts, and there is usually 3 gas's just sitting around until you get said units. I figured, if i have around the same number of workers that the Protoss has the WHOLE game why is it I'm only on 1-2 gas, while they usually have 4 on 2base? I knew I was already going Bio, so upgrades seemed the way to go. After a few games of just going 2 base 6rax into 3rd, I realized I was rolling everything between 9-12 minutes the Protoss was throwing at me. I decided just to get an earlier 3rd. Which obviously works for me or else I wouldn't have written this guide. I understand V7 and Monk are better players than me, but their posts make it seem like my build is incredibly fragile. Which it isn't. Sure it will die 50% of the time a Protoss does a 2Base All-in, but how often does a Protoss do a 2base all-in? Less than 10% of the time for sure. IF they would try the build, THEN say it just plainly dies to a 2base all-in, I would respect that, however they are just blatantly stating it dies to X after a quick glance.
I watched that replay and your opponent went a 2 gas 2 gate expand into a 1 colossi push with a 3rd behind it at 13 minutes. He also has 3 gates and 60 probes. That's nowhere close to a 2 base colossi allin.
You took the most greedy terran build there is currently and made it both less economical and less safe at the same time. After watching your replay and seeing you go mass marurder with 0 bunkers, 3 techlabs, and a cc in front of your base, I'm confident in saying that you will die to EVERY well executed protoss allin. You need marines in bunkers to hold off gateway or immortal allins, not maruders. The only reason you've been surviving is that your opponents haven't been executing well at your level.
Why do we have to try the build before commenting on it? It's your burden to prove that the build works against those allins. That is, it's your job to find someone to 2 base allin you and test if you can hold it when you present a new build.
You still haven't addressed my concerns that this build had no real benefits over either a 1 rax gasless expand or a reactor expand.
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I don't understand the relevance of the conc shell at all? It's purely for defending the zealot/stalker poke? You can defend that perfectly easily with just marines. Marines are just plain awesome early game, so why you would delay your expo just to get conc shell is beyond me.
Factory after your third? Seriously?
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On February 21 2012 08:36 iTzSnypah wrote:IF they would try the build, THEN say it just plainly dies to a 2base all-in, I would respect that, however they are just blatantly stating it dies to X after a quick glance.
Respectfully, a quick glance is just wrong terminology. When I was a Terran player, 1 rax and 2 rax expands were my bread and butter and I tried litterally 10s if not 100s of different variations of those builds. If I saw a pro gamer replay of a new way to expand off 1 rax you can bet I was going to test it on ladder and in customs. Your build blindly commits to 3 specific things that bother me.
1. Late Factory (not just after 4-5 rax late, but VERY late)
2. 2 Engi Bays
3. Fast 3rd CC
These 3 things each leave you weak in certain ways and strong in certain ways. The result of those 3 added with each other is a large bio force with decent upgrade and very slow medivacs and/or vikings. You force will tend to be smaller at the 8-12 minute timing and from there it will become larger as your 3rd base kicks in. The problem with this is that you are VERY open to the timings that require either bunkers with marines (immortal allins and gateway allins [tend to hit on the earlier side of your weak moment[) or vikings (colsi all ins [tend to hit with 2 colsi and range towards the end of your weak timing]). Given equal execution on both players, the protoss player should win if he does a build intending to hit during that broad timing.
If the toss is going for a build that is about defending until 3 bases and 3/3 upgrades with lots of tech you will find he doesn't do anything to punish your build until after your upgrades, 3rd base, and delayed starport tech have time to kick in. The only build that is fairly common that I see that does this is the 2 forge after 3 gate + robo style.
On February 21 2012 08:53 NrGmonk wrote:
You need marines in bunkers to hold off gateway or immortal allins, not maruders. The only reason you've been surviving is that your opponents haven't been executing well at your level.
You still haven't addressed my concerns that this build had no real benefits over either a 1 rax gasless expand or a reactor expand.
These are extremely valid points. The part about marines is 100% true.
On February 21 2012 08:04 iTzSnypah wrote:
Of all my TvP's I've played, only 1 has gone Double Forge (And I wasn't even doing this build). I manage to fair more than 60% winrate with this build, with almost all games going past the 16minute mark. Please try the build before you bash it.
I have tried styles like this many times and my main TvP style was centered on different reactive plays after opening with a fast single eng and adding a fast 2nd one. It is very similar to this style. This style takes advantage of a toss that is unable to punish the rather large investment that you make into a 3rd CC and 2 engi bays before the 9:30 mark. The payoff from those items happens to come rather late. There is several builds that will hit timings that will out right kill this. Immortal pushes, 6-7 Gate pushes, 2 base colsi all-ins, chargelot archon all ins that hit
There is a very common toss style that your build blind counters. A protoss that gets 3 gates, a robo, and 2 forges will lack ANY way to punish your greed. You will in fact be avoiding most of the strs of that build. If you were to find a fancy timing where you try to confirm the double forge build and segway into this build it would be an amazing addition to your standard play. I suspect that the timing of your engi bays doesn't really allow for that from the replays I watched.
I am sorry to say that until you present evidence of well executed 6/7 gate all-ins, Immortal pushes, and especially the 2 base colsi all ins monk mentioned I will conclude (based on both the BO your OP has and on the replays you submitted) that your build is a build that is not based on a sound decisions from scouting information and is in fact a style that happens to get you an army (you will win vs someone that you macro better than, that is not strategy that is mechanics) and does blind counter the double forge after 3 gate / robo while not giving you a reliable way to scout it.
It has a very nice flow to it and you seem to have really worked out the economy timings and such but I just don't see an elegance to the strategy side of it that makes me say this is a safe reactive macro build.
I am chosing to ignore the exact opening you do (the gas on 16 tech lab expand) but I will go ahead and say that it leaves you behind in every sense of the word compared to every opening I have tested. I was never able to say AH this opening has sick econ or is rock solid safe. It was middle of the road in the bad sense of the phrase.
Please, take this as CONSTRUCTIVE advice!
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On February 21 2012 08:36 iTzSnypah wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2012 08:16 Blazinghand wrote:On February 21 2012 08:04 iTzSnypah wrote:On February 21 2012 06:03 NrGmonk wrote:
I don't understand the advantages of this over a 1 rax gasless expansion. You say you feel weak to 4 gate pressure, but the gasless expand should do better versus that, because it's more marine heavy and has faster 2nd/3rd rax. If you want to fake some other gas build, you might as well do a reactor expand.
If you follow this build exactly, there is also no way to hold off a 2 base colossi allin. I don't know why you must theorycraft. IF you scout robo bay around the time you start your starport (which i do/if i see robo, i still just make vikings), you'll have ~6 vikings by the time the 2base colossus all-in happens. You will also have 6 barracks of production. Yes you will lose to it sometimes, but not the majority of the time. The emphasis of this build is to scrap by until 3 bases are saturated. (drop.sc/116444) In this replay my opponent goes for the 2base colossus attack (not all-in because he somehow only has 1 colossus), I have 4 vikings and a medivac along with 6 barracks of production by the time he attacks me. On February 21 2012 06:47 vaderseven wrote:On February 21 2012 06:03 NrGmonk wrote:
I don't understand the advantages of this over a 1 rax gasless expansion. You say you feel weak to 4 gate pressure, but the gasless expand should do better versus that, because it's more marine heavy and has faster 2nd/3rd rax. If you want to fake some other gas build, you might as well do a reactor expand.
If you follow this build exactly, there is also no way to hold off a 2 base colossi allin. Ya this build def goes out way too far. It basically assumes the toss does double forge. Of all my TvP's I've played, only 1 has gone Double Forge (And I wasn't even doing this build). I manage to fair more than 60% winrate with this build, with almost all games going past the 16minute mark. Please try the build before you bash it. I just thought I'd come in here and offer some advice: If you're going for a quick third, you really shouldn't be rushing to spend all this gas and tech to marauders. A 1 rax FE without gas is definitely the best. The reason you open with a Marauder Expand is to hit a quick stim timing off 2 base or because you want to be a baller and kill a dude's scouting poke. You don't do it to take a quick third and get crushed by any sort of quick tech. I think you should take a moment to listen to what V7 and Monk have to say, as these guys basically know what's up. That being said, let me break down your replay for you. You play against a low Diamond protoss who goes for a 2 gate expo and attacks you with a gateway army supporting a single colossus at the 13:00 mark while expanding. This is not a 2 base colossus all-in and this game doesn't represent an adequate defense of a 2-base colossus all-in.. I take security in Tech, which if you think about it, that is what Protoss does every game (except PvP luls). I know this may be on the more extreme side, but why not, 60-70% of the Protoss's out there are Passive players who just survive until lategame. Terran has no real use for gas before medivac's/ghosts, and there is usually 3 gas's just sitting around until you get said units. I figured, if i have around the same number of workers that the Protoss has the WHOLE game why is it I'm only on 1-2 gas, while they usually have 4 on 2base? I knew I was already going Bio, so upgrades seemed the way to go. After a few games of just going 2 base 6rax into 3rd, I realized I was rolling everything between 9-12 minutes the Protoss was throwing at me. I decided just to get an earlier 3rd. Which obviously works for me or else I wouldn't have written this guide. I understand V7 and Monk are better players than me, but their posts make it seem like my build is incredibly fragile. Which it isn't. Sure it will die 50% of the time a Protoss does a 2Base All-in, but how often does a Protoss do a 2base all-in? Less than 10% of the time for sure. IF they would try the build, THEN say it just plainly dies to a 2base all-in, I would respect that, however they are just blatantly stating it dies to X after a quick glance.
Okay, I hate to be that guy, but it's because you're playing crappy players, and probably not playing enough to get a good enough sample size.
You aren't at a level where people actually know what they're doing, and why. And if they do, they can't control it. And if they can, they can't make it fast enough. No one has it together in the lower leagues, it's why you're there.
There are a myriad of builds, both all in and not, that would absolutely crush your opening. You'd have to bunker, which offsets your timing on everything else. If you cut the CC in at same time, your unit count is so low you couldn't hold a K4G. By taking double ebay, +1/+1, and a 3rd CC you have to get at least 2-3 gas to support marauders/upgrades/and tech. So count them in, 150 minerals. 200/200 for upgrades, 250 for ebays. 400 for CC. That's 1000/200 you had to put into NOT your army. Any 5gate, 6 gate, 3 gate robo, 4 gate warp prism, 3 gate VR, 7 gate all in, 5 gate robo press, 2 base collsai all in.
The list goes on. You have such a low unit count that ONLY a 100% passive protoss, not using their OB to see no units, and double upgrades would not tack on 2-3 more gates, and get out collsai asap to win the game. With an early third, a proxy pylon + warp in/warp prism harass as they pressure the front would decimate you, as you cannot cover enough at once with such a low unit count.
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On February 21 2012 10:23 iAmJeffReY wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2012 08:36 iTzSnypah wrote:On February 21 2012 08:16 Blazinghand wrote:On February 21 2012 08:04 iTzSnypah wrote:On February 21 2012 06:03 NrGmonk wrote:
I don't understand the advantages of this over a 1 rax gasless expansion. You say you feel weak to 4 gate pressure, but the gasless expand should do better versus that, because it's more marine heavy and has faster 2nd/3rd rax. If you want to fake some other gas build, you might as well do a reactor expand.
If you follow this build exactly, there is also no way to hold off a 2 base colossi allin. I don't know why you must theorycraft. IF you scout robo bay around the time you start your starport (which i do/if i see robo, i still just make vikings), you'll have ~6 vikings by the time the 2base colossus all-in happens. You will also have 6 barracks of production. Yes you will lose to it sometimes, but not the majority of the time. The emphasis of this build is to scrap by until 3 bases are saturated. (drop.sc/116444) In this replay my opponent goes for the 2base colossus attack (not all-in because he somehow only has 1 colossus), I have 4 vikings and a medivac along with 6 barracks of production by the time he attacks me. On February 21 2012 06:47 vaderseven wrote:On February 21 2012 06:03 NrGmonk wrote:
I don't understand the advantages of this over a 1 rax gasless expansion. You say you feel weak to 4 gate pressure, but the gasless expand should do better versus that, because it's more marine heavy and has faster 2nd/3rd rax. If you want to fake some other gas build, you might as well do a reactor expand.
If you follow this build exactly, there is also no way to hold off a 2 base colossi allin. Ya this build def goes out way too far. It basically assumes the toss does double forge. Of all my TvP's I've played, only 1 has gone Double Forge (And I wasn't even doing this build). I manage to fair more than 60% winrate with this build, with almost all games going past the 16minute mark. Please try the build before you bash it. I just thought I'd come in here and offer some advice: If you're going for a quick third, you really shouldn't be rushing to spend all this gas and tech to marauders. A 1 rax FE without gas is definitely the best. The reason you open with a Marauder Expand is to hit a quick stim timing off 2 base or because you want to be a baller and kill a dude's scouting poke. You don't do it to take a quick third and get crushed by any sort of quick tech. I think you should take a moment to listen to what V7 and Monk have to say, as these guys basically know what's up. That being said, let me break down your replay for you. You play against a low Diamond protoss who goes for a 2 gate expo and attacks you with a gateway army supporting a single colossus at the 13:00 mark while expanding. This is not a 2 base colossus all-in and this game doesn't represent an adequate defense of a 2-base colossus all-in.. I take security in Tech, which if you think about it, that is what Protoss does every game (except PvP luls). I know this may be on the more extreme side, but why not, 60-70% of the Protoss's out there are Passive players who just survive until lategame. Terran has no real use for gas before medivac's/ghosts, and there is usually 3 gas's just sitting around until you get said units. I figured, if i have around the same number of workers that the Protoss has the WHOLE game why is it I'm only on 1-2 gas, while they usually have 4 on 2base? I knew I was already going Bio, so upgrades seemed the way to go. After a few games of just going 2 base 6rax into 3rd, I realized I was rolling everything between 9-12 minutes the Protoss was throwing at me. I decided just to get an earlier 3rd. Which obviously works for me or else I wouldn't have written this guide. I understand V7 and Monk are better players than me, but their posts make it seem like my build is incredibly fragile. Which it isn't. Sure it will die 50% of the time a Protoss does a 2Base All-in, but how often does a Protoss do a 2base all-in? Less than 10% of the time for sure. IF they would try the build, THEN say it just plainly dies to a 2base all-in, I would respect that, however they are just blatantly stating it dies to X after a quick glance. Okay, I hate to be that guy, but it's because you're playing crappy players, and probably not playing enough to get a good enough sample size. You aren't at a level where people actually know what they're doing, and why. And if they do, they can't control it. And if they can, they can't make it fast enough. No one has it together in the lower leagues, it's why you're there. There are a myriad of builds, both all in and not, that would absolutely crush your opening. You'd have to bunker, which offsets your timing on everything else. If you cut the CC in at same time, your unit count is so low you couldn't hold a K4G. By taking double ebay, +1/+1, and a 3rd CC you have to get at least 2-3 gas to support marauders/upgrades/and tech. So count them in, 150 minerals. 200/200 for upgrades, 250 for ebays. 400 for CC. That's 1000/200 you had to put into NOT your army. Any 5gate, 6 gate, 3 gate robo, 4 gate warp prism, 3 gate VR, 7 gate all in, 5 gate robo press, 2 base collsai all in. The list goes on. You have such a low unit count that ONLY a 100% passive protoss, not using their OB to see no units, and double upgrades would not tack on 2-3 more gates, and get out collsai asap to win the game. With an early third, a proxy pylon + warp in/warp prism harass as they pressure the front would decimate you, as you cannot cover enough at once with such a low unit count.
Well, im platinum and all my replays are vs diamond or better... so i don't get your crappy opponents deal...so you like to theorycraft too. it seems everyone on tl does.
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i feel like the normal faster third cc might be safer vs alot of builds and better for your econ. You dont need to early conc shells with the bunker, unless you want to get a free stalker but then youve spent more money for the marauder+upgrade than the stalker and had to get your gas earlier. I think just getting the fast 3rd cc then going up to 5 barracks without any gas would be alot safer
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On February 21 2012 10:30 iTzSnypah wrote:
Well, im platinum and all my replays are vs diamond or better... so i don't get your crappy opponents deal...so you like to theorycraft too. it seems everyone on tl does.
A bad build order that ignores strats but allows you to make units without macro hic-ups will dominate at your level. No offense.
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On February 21 2012 10:30 iTzSnypah wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2012 10:23 iAmJeffReY wrote:On February 21 2012 08:36 iTzSnypah wrote:On February 21 2012 08:16 Blazinghand wrote:On February 21 2012 08:04 iTzSnypah wrote:On February 21 2012 06:03 NrGmonk wrote:
I don't understand the advantages of this over a 1 rax gasless expansion. You say you feel weak to 4 gate pressure, but the gasless expand should do better versus that, because it's more marine heavy and has faster 2nd/3rd rax. If you want to fake some other gas build, you might as well do a reactor expand.
If you follow this build exactly, there is also no way to hold off a 2 base colossi allin. I don't know why you must theorycraft. IF you scout robo bay around the time you start your starport (which i do/if i see robo, i still just make vikings), you'll have ~6 vikings by the time the 2base colossus all-in happens. You will also have 6 barracks of production. Yes you will lose to it sometimes, but not the majority of the time. The emphasis of this build is to scrap by until 3 bases are saturated. (drop.sc/116444) In this replay my opponent goes for the 2base colossus attack (not all-in because he somehow only has 1 colossus), I have 4 vikings and a medivac along with 6 barracks of production by the time he attacks me. On February 21 2012 06:47 vaderseven wrote:On February 21 2012 06:03 NrGmonk wrote:
I don't understand the advantages of this over a 1 rax gasless expansion. You say you feel weak to 4 gate pressure, but the gasless expand should do better versus that, because it's more marine heavy and has faster 2nd/3rd rax. If you want to fake some other gas build, you might as well do a reactor expand.
If you follow this build exactly, there is also no way to hold off a 2 base colossi allin. Ya this build def goes out way too far. It basically assumes the toss does double forge. Of all my TvP's I've played, only 1 has gone Double Forge (And I wasn't even doing this build). I manage to fair more than 60% winrate with this build, with almost all games going past the 16minute mark. Please try the build before you bash it. I just thought I'd come in here and offer some advice: If you're going for a quick third, you really shouldn't be rushing to spend all this gas and tech to marauders. A 1 rax FE without gas is definitely the best. The reason you open with a Marauder Expand is to hit a quick stim timing off 2 base or because you want to be a baller and kill a dude's scouting poke. You don't do it to take a quick third and get crushed by any sort of quick tech. I think you should take a moment to listen to what V7 and Monk have to say, as these guys basically know what's up. That being said, let me break down your replay for you. You play against a low Diamond protoss who goes for a 2 gate expo and attacks you with a gateway army supporting a single colossus at the 13:00 mark while expanding. This is not a 2 base colossus all-in and this game doesn't represent an adequate defense of a 2-base colossus all-in.. I take security in Tech, which if you think about it, that is what Protoss does every game (except PvP luls). I know this may be on the more extreme side, but why not, 60-70% of the Protoss's out there are Passive players who just survive until lategame. Terran has no real use for gas before medivac's/ghosts, and there is usually 3 gas's just sitting around until you get said units. I figured, if i have around the same number of workers that the Protoss has the WHOLE game why is it I'm only on 1-2 gas, while they usually have 4 on 2base? I knew I was already going Bio, so upgrades seemed the way to go. After a few games of just going 2 base 6rax into 3rd, I realized I was rolling everything between 9-12 minutes the Protoss was throwing at me. I decided just to get an earlier 3rd. Which obviously works for me or else I wouldn't have written this guide. I understand V7 and Monk are better players than me, but their posts make it seem like my build is incredibly fragile. Which it isn't. Sure it will die 50% of the time a Protoss does a 2Base All-in, but how often does a Protoss do a 2base all-in? Less than 10% of the time for sure. IF they would try the build, THEN say it just plainly dies to a 2base all-in, I would respect that, however they are just blatantly stating it dies to X after a quick glance. Okay, I hate to be that guy, but it's because you're playing crappy players, and probably not playing enough to get a good enough sample size. You aren't at a level where people actually know what they're doing, and why. And if they do, they can't control it. And if they can, they can't make it fast enough. No one has it together in the lower leagues, it's why you're there. There are a myriad of builds, both all in and not, that would absolutely crush your opening. You'd have to bunker, which offsets your timing on everything else. If you cut the CC in at same time, your unit count is so low you couldn't hold a K4G. By taking double ebay, +1/+1, and a 3rd CC you have to get at least 2-3 gas to support marauders/upgrades/and tech. So count them in, 150 minerals. 200/200 for upgrades, 250 for ebays. 400 for CC. That's 1000/200 you had to put into NOT your army. Any 5gate, 6 gate, 3 gate robo, 4 gate warp prism, 3 gate VR, 7 gate all in, 5 gate robo press, 2 base collsai all in. The list goes on. You have such a low unit count that ONLY a 100% passive protoss, not using their OB to see no units, and double upgrades would not tack on 2-3 more gates, and get out collsai asap to win the game. With an early third, a proxy pylon + warp in/warp prism harass as they pressure the front would decimate you, as you cannot cover enough at once with such a low unit count. Well, im platinum and all my replays are vs diamond or better... so i don't get your crappy opponents deal...so you like to theorycraft too. it seems everyone on tl does.
Hate to be that guy, but diamond players ARE crappy opponents. Hell, even masters (low-mid) are terrible. And come on, not everybody on TL theorycrafts. Let's not let this get silly, okay?
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On February 21 2012 10:30 iTzSnypah wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2012 10:23 iAmJeffReY wrote:On February 21 2012 08:36 iTzSnypah wrote:On February 21 2012 08:16 Blazinghand wrote:On February 21 2012 08:04 iTzSnypah wrote:On February 21 2012 06:03 NrGmonk wrote:
I don't understand the advantages of this over a 1 rax gasless expansion. You say you feel weak to 4 gate pressure, but the gasless expand should do better versus that, because it's more marine heavy and has faster 2nd/3rd rax. If you want to fake some other gas build, you might as well do a reactor expand.
If you follow this build exactly, there is also no way to hold off a 2 base colossi allin. I don't know why you must theorycraft. IF you scout robo bay around the time you start your starport (which i do/if i see robo, i still just make vikings), you'll have ~6 vikings by the time the 2base colossus all-in happens. You will also have 6 barracks of production. Yes you will lose to it sometimes, but not the majority of the time. The emphasis of this build is to scrap by until 3 bases are saturated. (drop.sc/116444) In this replay my opponent goes for the 2base colossus attack (not all-in because he somehow only has 1 colossus), I have 4 vikings and a medivac along with 6 barracks of production by the time he attacks me. On February 21 2012 06:47 vaderseven wrote:On February 21 2012 06:03 NrGmonk wrote:
I don't understand the advantages of this over a 1 rax gasless expansion. You say you feel weak to 4 gate pressure, but the gasless expand should do better versus that, because it's more marine heavy and has faster 2nd/3rd rax. If you want to fake some other gas build, you might as well do a reactor expand.
If you follow this build exactly, there is also no way to hold off a 2 base colossi allin. Ya this build def goes out way too far. It basically assumes the toss does double forge. Of all my TvP's I've played, only 1 has gone Double Forge (And I wasn't even doing this build). I manage to fair more than 60% winrate with this build, with almost all games going past the 16minute mark. Please try the build before you bash it. I just thought I'd come in here and offer some advice: If you're going for a quick third, you really shouldn't be rushing to spend all this gas and tech to marauders. A 1 rax FE without gas is definitely the best. The reason you open with a Marauder Expand is to hit a quick stim timing off 2 base or because you want to be a baller and kill a dude's scouting poke. You don't do it to take a quick third and get crushed by any sort of quick tech. I think you should take a moment to listen to what V7 and Monk have to say, as these guys basically know what's up. That being said, let me break down your replay for you. You play against a low Diamond protoss who goes for a 2 gate expo and attacks you with a gateway army supporting a single colossus at the 13:00 mark while expanding. This is not a 2 base colossus all-in and this game doesn't represent an adequate defense of a 2-base colossus all-in.. I take security in Tech, which if you think about it, that is what Protoss does every game (except PvP luls). I know this may be on the more extreme side, but why not, 60-70% of the Protoss's out there are Passive players who just survive until lategame. Terran has no real use for gas before medivac's/ghosts, and there is usually 3 gas's just sitting around until you get said units. I figured, if i have around the same number of workers that the Protoss has the WHOLE game why is it I'm only on 1-2 gas, while they usually have 4 on 2base? I knew I was already going Bio, so upgrades seemed the way to go. After a few games of just going 2 base 6rax into 3rd, I realized I was rolling everything between 9-12 minutes the Protoss was throwing at me. I decided just to get an earlier 3rd. Which obviously works for me or else I wouldn't have written this guide. I understand V7 and Monk are better players than me, but their posts make it seem like my build is incredibly fragile. Which it isn't. Sure it will die 50% of the time a Protoss does a 2Base All-in, but how often does a Protoss do a 2base all-in? Less than 10% of the time for sure. IF they would try the build, THEN say it just plainly dies to a 2base all-in, I would respect that, however they are just blatantly stating it dies to X after a quick glance. Okay, I hate to be that guy, but it's because you're playing crappy players, and probably not playing enough to get a good enough sample size. You aren't at a level where people actually know what they're doing, and why. And if they do, they can't control it. And if they can, they can't make it fast enough. No one has it together in the lower leagues, it's why you're there. There are a myriad of builds, both all in and not, that would absolutely crush your opening. You'd have to bunker, which offsets your timing on everything else. If you cut the CC in at same time, your unit count is so low you couldn't hold a K4G. By taking double ebay, +1/+1, and a 3rd CC you have to get at least 2-3 gas to support marauders/upgrades/and tech. So count them in, 150 minerals. 200/200 for upgrades, 250 for ebays. 400 for CC. That's 1000/200 you had to put into NOT your army. Any 5gate, 6 gate, 3 gate robo, 4 gate warp prism, 3 gate VR, 7 gate all in, 5 gate robo press, 2 base collsai all in. The list goes on. You have such a low unit count that ONLY a 100% passive protoss, not using their OB to see no units, and double upgrades would not tack on 2-3 more gates, and get out collsai asap to win the game. With an early third, a proxy pylon + warp in/warp prism harass as they pressure the front would decimate you, as you cannot cover enough at once with such a low unit count. Well, im platinum and all my replays are vs diamond or better... so i don't get your crappy opponents deal...so you like to theorycraft too. it seems everyone on tl does.
I'm trolling on europe leveling my name. I encounter diamonds in my path. I just beat a zerg doing a reactor marine rush, into 4 CC build.
Diamonds are not good. At all. It's mean to say, but true. There's so much wrong with their play. Hell, there's a list of shit wrong with my play, and I draw GMs time to time.
You are defending a bad build to the death. It's not theorycraft, it's proven.
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Yea I'd agree holding 3 colo pushes is hard. Factory at 9:00= starport at 10:00= 2 vikings by 10:42? Double starport only gets you 4 vikings at 10:42, it seems like a tough timing. Any thoughts?
Edit: Sorry I didn't read all the comments and now realize that this build just isn't very good.
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I'm not sure if I'm reading this correctly, but you 1rax FE into 3rax techlab, mix in marauders + conc+ stim, you then get a third CC, and then double ebays? I really think you assume that your opponent isn't going to 2base Immortal/Collosi bust you...Which would be fine in lower levels, since most platinum/diamond Protosses just turtle until 3/3, Templar and Collosi, but in masters and above, we like to do something called pressuring the front and scouting, which would reveal your lack of units and your obviously greedy play.
1rax FE into 4rax just seems so much scarier than this build, you can tech quickly while pressuring. In this build, you pray to God that your opponent doesn't all-in you.
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Just laughed so hard when he acted like playing vs diamond players made his build somehow more viable.
Anyway, I sent him a PM asking him to test this build vs my 2base allins as protoss.
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On February 21 2012 11:35 Pokebunny wrote:
Just laughed so hard when he acted like playing vs diamond players made his build somehow more viable.
Anyway, I sent him a PM asking him to test this build vs my 2base allins as protoss.
I didn't know you offraced...I've only seen you play T on your streams..
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On February 21 2012 11:37 Whatson wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2012 11:35 Pokebunny wrote:
Just laughed so hard when he acted like playing vs diamond players made his build somehow more viable.
Anyway, I sent him a PM asking him to test this build vs my 2base allins as protoss. I didn't know you offraced...I've only seen you play T on your streams..
My offraces vs T are quite strong, high masters level. Other matchups not quite too much, but I'm pretty solid especially PvT.
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Honestly, to be very very clear, I would advise that the OP continue to ladder until he does start losing with this style and then adjust from there. This thread will most likely be full of good ideas that can be used to approach said changes.
There is no problem with laddering a style till it doesn't work then tweaking it at that point.
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EPT
