|
On February 20 2012 20:40 JOJOsc2news wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 16:21 ccJroy wrote:
Interesting. Will try it out. Can't figure out a good "Standard" build vs gasless FE. Watch Day[9] Daily 420 - Naniwa's PvT OpeningIt's literally amazing against gasless FE and allows you to get up an early third base. If you don't mess up you'll be ahead from the moment you scout the gasless FE.
hmm interesting. what does the OP think of naniwa's build vs his own?
|
On February 21 2012 09:51 da_head wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2012 20:40 JOJOsc2news wrote:On February 15 2012 16:21 ccJroy wrote:
Interesting. Will try it out. Can't figure out a good "Standard" build vs gasless FE. Watch Day[9] Daily 420 - Naniwa's PvT OpeningIt's literally amazing against gasless FE and allows you to get up an early third base. If you don't mess up you'll be ahead from the moment you scout the gasless FE. hmm interesting. what does the OP think of naniwa's build vs his own?
If I felt safe opening with pure sentries, I would do it. It would make the gateway pressure more flexible and far more likely to do damage. However, there are too many things I don't understand about his build.
How do you hold off marine/SCV cheese without stalkers?
How do you scout Terran's opening without the zealot/stalker/probe poke?
How do you deal with an ebay block at the natural without an early zealot?
How does pure sentry deal with fast marauders off of either 1 or 2 rax?
How can you beat a 1/1/1 with such a late robo?
I've watched Naniwa play his build on his stream and remember him losing to 1 base builds almost every time.
|
On February 21 2012 12:54 iamke55 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2012 09:51 da_head wrote:On February 20 2012 20:40 JOJOsc2news wrote:On February 15 2012 16:21 ccJroy wrote:
Interesting. Will try it out. Can't figure out a good "Standard" build vs gasless FE. Watch Day[9] Daily 420 - Naniwa's PvT OpeningIt's literally amazing against gasless FE and allows you to get up an early third base. If you don't mess up you'll be ahead from the moment you scout the gasless FE. hmm interesting. what does the OP think of naniwa's build vs his own? If I felt safe opening with pure sentries, I would do it. It would make the gateway pressure more flexible and far more likely to do damage. However, there are too many things I don't understand about his build. How do you hold off marine/SCV cheese without stalkers? How do you scout Terran's opening without the zealot/stalker/probe poke? How do you deal with an ebay block at the natural without an early zealot? How does pure sentry deal with fast marauders off of either 1 or 2 rax? How can you beat a 1/1/1 with such a late robo? I've watched Naniwa play his build on his stream and remember him losing to 1 base builds almost every time.
alright. thanks for the response 
|
wat are some weaknesses to this build?
|
Removed reply, confused the build with another one 
|
Dunno how I missed this thread. Good guide--I'll definitely play around with the transitions.
I've got a similar opening off of 1 gate FE into 3 gate pressure which hits 12 gateway units and 36 probes at 7:20. That's 12 food ahead of where Oz was at the same, but since Oz lost a zealot and a probe, the build order difference is effectively 9 food. Either way, it's a pretty substantial difference, so I think there's room for some optimization in the opening.
|
Been playing around with this to some success. Mostly making this post so I don't lose this thread again. While I'm at it, assuming things go as detailed, when would you feel comfortable attacking? Say you get your 3 or 4 bases; you're going to be able to max long before you get all techs, so how do try to trade effectively; or do you allow a turtling terran to max and try to win the big engagement?
|
Woah thanks to the guy that bumped this (and obviously iamke for writing it!). Awesome build, skimming thru the reps before I try and steal some ladder points with it.
|
So I've played around with this strategy some, and I think it the fast third has some real downsides when compared to builds that get faster tech and/or upgrades instead.
Specifically, weapons-upgraded marines with medivac support shred through non-upgraded zealots even if P has a bigger army. I don't see any good way to defend a 6 medivac timing with +1 or +2 weapons consisting of pure marines and maybe a few ghosts for EMP. Even with charge and blink, I find that I can't even dent that kind of marine ball without an upgrade advantage (combined with guardian shield) or AoE damage.
This was the problem that pushed me toward grabbing a quick forge, teching storm quickly and taking a 10 minute third instead of an 8:30 third. With this tech-focused build, I don't have an opportunity to pressure, and my army is a little smaller due to the slower third, but a smaller army with the right tech and upgrades feels much less exploitable than a big army of non-upgraded gateway units.
|
On February 29 2012 03:23 kcdc wrote:
So I've played around with this strategy some, and I think it the fast third has some real downsides when compared to builds that get faster tech and/or upgrades instead.
Specifically, weapons-upgraded marines with medivac support shred through non-upgraded zealots even if P has a bigger army. I don't see any good way to defend a 6 medivac timing with +1 or +2 weapons consisting of pure marines and maybe a few ghosts for EMP. Even with charge and blink, I find that I can't even dent that kind of marine ball without an upgrade advantage (combined with guardian shield) or AoE damage.
This was the problem that pushed me toward grabbing a quick forge, teching storm quickly and taking a 10 minute third instead of an 8:30 third. With this tech-focused build, I don't have an opportunity to pressure, and my army is a little smaller due to the slower third, but a smaller army with the right tech and upgrades feels much less exploitable than a big army of non-upgraded gateway units.
You need archons to deal with medivac pushes like that. I go 1gate fe->2 more gates->nexus->fake pressure -> tc and 2 gates -> 3 gates and ht archives -> charge and double forge -> chargelot archon.
I dont really like attacking with those early units, i feel like if the terran is prepared youre too behind to stop any allin.
|
On February 29 2012 03:23 kcdc wrote:
So I've played around with this strategy some, and I think it the fast third has some real downsides when compared to builds that get faster tech and/or upgrades instead.
Specifically, weapons-upgraded marines with medivac support shred through non-upgraded zealots even if P has a bigger army. I don't see any good way to defend a 6 medivac timing with +1 or +2 weapons consisting of pure marines and maybe a few ghosts for EMP. Even with charge and blink, I find that I can't even dent that kind of marine ball without an upgrade advantage (combined with guardian shield) or AoE damage.
This was the problem that pushed me toward grabbing a quick forge, teching storm quickly and taking a 10 minute third instead of an 8:30 third. With this tech-focused build, I don't have an opportunity to pressure, and my army is a little smaller due to the slower third, but a smaller army with the right tech and upgrades feels much less exploitable than a big army of non-upgraded gateway units.
I don't follow the OP's thread exactly (I get 5 Stalkers out for map control and grab my 3rd at 7:20) but as Arcanefrost said chargelot/archon is the way to go. If they wait for medivacs and +1 to finish your storm should be finished. If they try to do an early push with their first 2 medivacs w/o upgrades then morph your HT into archons when you see him pushing out while also leaving 1 HT at each spot he might drop you to feedback the medivacs. It also helps to place pylons in key locations so that you can use a round of zealot warp-ins to help surround his bio ball. Also lastly you should be throwing down double forges ~10-11 mins so you don't get too behind on upgrades.
|
I believe that this is the build that Hero used against qxc at IEM Kiev although he only used 3 gates initially.
|
On February 29 2012 09:38 Skyro wrote:Show nested quote +On February 29 2012 03:23 kcdc wrote:
So I've played around with this strategy some, and I think it the fast third has some real downsides when compared to builds that get faster tech and/or upgrades instead.
Specifically, weapons-upgraded marines with medivac support shred through non-upgraded zealots even if P has a bigger army. I don't see any good way to defend a 6 medivac timing with +1 or +2 weapons consisting of pure marines and maybe a few ghosts for EMP. Even with charge and blink, I find that I can't even dent that kind of marine ball without an upgrade advantage (combined with guardian shield) or AoE damage.
This was the problem that pushed me toward grabbing a quick forge, teching storm quickly and taking a 10 minute third instead of an 8:30 third. With this tech-focused build, I don't have an opportunity to pressure, and my army is a little smaller due to the slower third, but a smaller army with the right tech and upgrades feels much less exploitable than a big army of non-upgraded gateway units. I don't follow the OP's thread exactly (I get 5 Stalkers out for map control and grab my 3rd at 7:20) but as Arcanefrost said chargelot/archon is the way to go. If they wait for medivacs and +1 to finish your storm should be finished. If they try to do an early push with their first 2 medivacs w/o upgrades then morph your HT into archons when you see him pushing out while also leaving 1 HT at each spot he might drop you to feedback the medivacs. It also helps to place pylons in key locations so that you can use a round of zealot warp-ins to help surround his bio ball. Also lastly you should be throwing down double forges ~10-11 mins so you don't get too behind on upgrades.
T can do a +1 medivac timing at 10 minutes. My 2-base storm build with a twilight council at ~7:10 just barely squeaks out storm in time to deal with it. This 3-base build won't have storm in time, and for early timings, I doubt it will have the gas for stalkers, blink, charge and archons in time. And of course, getting archons further delays upgrades and storm tech, which makes it harder to defend a slightly later push with +2 and a few ghosts. I'm just not sold that it's worth delaying tech and upgrades for a faster third.
|
On February 18 2012 21:14 Micket wrote:
Why are Protoss players such good teachers? I need Terran guides that aren't 'how to mech vs Protoss', 'Thor Raven vs Zerg', 'Battlecruiser Rush' or stuff like that. Where is the 'MVP's reactor hellion triple orbital vs Zerg' guide? It is such a common build in GSL atm and reading TL makes me think it doesn't exist.
This is the sort of build that crushes me in TvP. I can't tell between a gateway all in and pressure. Should I scan nat gasses to see whether there is a tech transition?
There are a few good fairly recent builds from Day9 that are pretty macro-heavy in TvZ, TvP, and TvT.
They're not all from the 'terran week' a few months ago, but the Terran Week TvZ daily has a reactor hellion>3base orbital build.
There's also Thorzain's TvT build there, which I use exclusively, a daily about Mech, which sucks, and one about Kas' TvP triple orbital build which is mentioned in this thread, and I used to use, but stopped and switched to the 2-rax from a daily about MKP's 2-rax because I realized my Micro and Multitasking need a ton of work.
'
Basically Day9 recently did a whole bunch of dailies on TvX, especially TvP, so no one's really posting anything on TL. >.>
|
On February 29 2012 14:54 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On February 29 2012 09:38 Skyro wrote:On February 29 2012 03:23 kcdc wrote:
So I've played around with this strategy some, and I think it the fast third has some real downsides when compared to builds that get faster tech and/or upgrades instead.
Specifically, weapons-upgraded marines with medivac support shred through non-upgraded zealots even if P has a bigger army. I don't see any good way to defend a 6 medivac timing with +1 or +2 weapons consisting of pure marines and maybe a few ghosts for EMP. Even with charge and blink, I find that I can't even dent that kind of marine ball without an upgrade advantage (combined with guardian shield) or AoE damage.
This was the problem that pushed me toward grabbing a quick forge, teching storm quickly and taking a 10 minute third instead of an 8:30 third. With this tech-focused build, I don't have an opportunity to pressure, and my army is a little smaller due to the slower third, but a smaller army with the right tech and upgrades feels much less exploitable than a big army of non-upgraded gateway units. I don't follow the OP's thread exactly (I get 5 Stalkers out for map control and grab my 3rd at 7:20) but as Arcanefrost said chargelot/archon is the way to go. If they wait for medivacs and +1 to finish your storm should be finished. If they try to do an early push with their first 2 medivacs w/o upgrades then morph your HT into archons when you see him pushing out while also leaving 1 HT at each spot he might drop you to feedback the medivacs. It also helps to place pylons in key locations so that you can use a round of zealot warp-ins to help surround his bio ball. Also lastly you should be throwing down double forges ~10-11 mins so you don't get too behind on upgrades. T can do a +1 medivac timing at 10 minutes. My 2-base storm build with a twilight council at ~7:10 just barely squeaks out storm in time to deal with it. This 3-base build won't have storm in time, and for early timings, I doubt it will have the gas for stalkers, blink, charge and archons in time. And of course, getting archons further delays upgrades and storm tech, which makes it harder to defend a slightly later push with +2 and a few ghosts. I'm just not sold that it's worth delaying tech and upgrades for a faster third.
I'm not exactly sure what timing you are asking about as you mention a 6 medivac w/ +1 or +2 timing in your earlier post, then refer to a 2 medivac timing here. You won't have storm for a 2 medivac timing but you should have charge and your archives done to get 1 warp-in of HT.
Although from your post it seems you are coming from a standpoint that you aren't questioning if these timings can be held but rather you don't believe the faster 3rd is worth the slower upgrades, however that depends a lot to the timing of your 3rd. If you follow OP's build and get the 3rd @9ish min then of course it would be comparatively harder to hold a 10 or 11 min timing as the 3rd has not paid for itself yet, which is one of the reasons why I do not follow the OP's build exactly and get my 3rd @ 7:20ish. You can get an even earlier 3rd like how the koreans are doing it but IMO that only really works on large maps (which there are many in the GSL map pool) and not on many of the ladder maps since a 4/5 naked-rax marine push would be pretty hard to hold on smaller maps. This is why I make the 5 early stalkers for map control and the ability to deter any early marine/scv shenanigans.
|
On February 29 2012 14:54 kcdc wrote:
T can do a +1 medivac timing at 10 minutes. My 2-base storm build with a twilight council at ~7:10 just barely squeaks out storm in time to deal with it. This 3-base build won't have storm in time, and for early timings, I doubt it will have the gas for stalkers, blink, charge and archons in time. And of course, getting archons further delays upgrades and storm tech, which makes it harder to defend a slightly later push with +2 and a few ghosts. I'm just not sold that it's worth delaying tech and upgrades for a faster third.
You need to morph your ht into archons if he decides to push this fast. Fast third definetely has some flaws but on big maps I think it's the best build.
|
The game vs LagTTFaith shows a timing push that I don't think this build can reliably hold on most maps. It hits at 10:50 with 2 medivacs (2 more rallying), a bunch of marines, and +1 weapons. Charge was half way done and the templar archives hasn't been started.
In this game on Cloud Kingdom, Lagrangian holds the push because Faith took the narrow attack path close to the natural and wound up pinned against the terrain with no space to micro. But imagine that the push had instead come up the wide ramp at the third, stimmed up, and dodged forcefields while microing back and forth along the top path towards the corner expansion. With good micro, T will avoid getting a big chunk of his army forcefielded and will steadily kite down the slow zealots.
The problem with delayed upgrades would have shown up in the 2nd big fight had T's first attack not gone so poorly. P does a +1/+1 timing with a huge food advantage. T trades efficiently at first, but winds up being overwhelmed. But imagine that T had +2/+2 at this timing (very possible since Faith let his macro slip a bit and delayed his +2/+2) and had just left himself a retreat path on his 11 minute timing so that he had saved some of those forces. T would have been doing a +2/+2 timing with a nearly maxed force with a couple of ghosts, and I don't see how a maxed zealot-archon force at +1/+1 could have put even a substantial dent in that army.
I don't think this is a bad strategy--obviously it can work a good % of the time. I'm just not sold that the earlier 3rd is worth what you give up to get it. You sacrificie your most efficient tools (storm/colossi) against a push that every T is going to do (the 10:30 medivac timing), and while you might get around that problem with positioning or delay tactics sometimes, it's going to bite you in the ass frequently enough. Moreover, you're going to be down on upgrades through the whole midgame, and unless you score a big win on defense, you're not going to be able to prevent T from getting the type of bioball that will tear through zealot-archon.
|
Thanks seems like a really solid build
|
Nice guide.
As Terran, i sometimes wonder if going gas less FE is worth it since it open you to so many timings from protoss now. :s
|
Read this word for word and I am thoroughly impressed! Very informative and describes counters effectively.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
