EPT
[G]Gateway Pressure, Fast 3 Base PvT - Page 4
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TheEmulator
28100 Posts
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Budmandude
United States123 Posts
.Now, the only real reservations I've had are the upgrade timings (which I've seen mentioned a few times in this thread). So what you've been doing is going citadel -> blink then add 2 gates, warpin, add 2 more gates to 8. What I tried instead of adding 2 gates after starting blink was adding a gate and a forge and just taking a 3rd gas a little bit sooner. This way the +1 armor finishes around the same time charge does, just in time for the Terran push at ~10 minutes with no chrono necessary. Tradeoff is I'm on 7 gates now, but if I've been macroing perfectly I'll probably have to cut a couple warpins on 8 gates to afford the 3rd nexus anyway and can just add on more later after I've held the medivac timing and am in full tech-up mode. I think the +1 armor is better than the 2 or 3 zealots I might be missing from the gateway. The major tradeoff I can see here is that 100 gas could have been stalkers to make my kiting stronger, but I'm mitigating that gas loss with the slightly faster 3rd gas. If anyone has any thoughts on why this might not be a good idea please post! | ||
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amateurToss
United States6 Posts
One tactic I noticed is Oz and Hero using pylons and probes for spotters in the bases surrounding Terran. This becomes more important because you don't have observers to spot drops. | ||
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Skyro
United States1823 Posts
On March 01 2012 22:11 amateurToss wrote: I think kcdc's concerns are paramount here. The whole crux of the build seems to come down to whether you can hold the 10:30 push from Terran with nothing but vanilla gateway units. Does anyone have any experience with any pvt styles that rely on these kinds of gateway units against mmm? I'm curious if there's anything to it aside from, "Try to engage Terrans in chokes and get off good forcefields." One tactic I noticed is Oz and Hero using pylons and probes for spotters in the bases surrounding Terran. This becomes more important because you don't have observers to spot drops. The whole crux of any macro PvT build is holding the medivac timing, not just this build. And AFAIK kcdc is just stating he doesn't feel the trade-off of earlier 3rd for later upgrades is worth it, not that the medivac timing cannot be held. If the medivac timing couldn't be held then the build would not be viable simply because nearly every terran you face will be doing this push in some form or another. The 10:30 push can be held with chargelots and a few archons. No FFs/chokes necessary but obviously will make things more cost efficient for you. | ||
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amateurToss
United States6 Posts
On March 01 2012 22:11 amateurToss wrote: One tactic I noticed is Oz and Hero using pylons and probes for spotters in the bases surrounding Terran. This becomes more important because you don't have observers to spot drops. The whole crux of any macro PvT build is holding the medivac timing, not just this build. And AFAIK kcdc is just stating he doesn't feel the trade-off of earlier 3rd for later upgrades is worth it, not that the medivac timing cannot be held. If the medivac timing couldn't be held then the build would not be viable simply because nearly every terran you face will be doing this push in some form or another. The 10:30 push can be held with chargelots and a few archons. No FFs/chokes necessary but obviously will make things more cost efficient for you. Thanks for clarifying that. What I thought he was saying is that, in general, the build relies on really good engagement with the medivac push like in the cloud kingdom game. I'm very curious what kinds of variations people can come up with for the midgame of this build such as large stalker counts or double twilight for quick charge. | ||
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Skyro
United States1823 Posts
On March 02 2012 05:02 amateurToss wrote: Thanks for clarifying that. What I thought he was saying is that, in general, the build relies on really good engagement with the medivac push like in the cloud kingdom game. I'm very curious what kinds of variations people can come up with for the midgame of this build such as large stalker counts or double twilight for quick charge. To clarify, any build that has does not have charge or some form of AoE does in fact rely on good engagements (i.e. good FFs), and OP's build goes for blink first and thus, yes he does rely on good engagements (this is no different from the double forge build which also gets blink first). I'm coming more from the standpoint of the "idea" of a fast 3rd vs a gasless 1-rax FE is completely viable and IMO worth the delayed upgrades and am not necessarily commenting specifically on OP's variation, which I personally do not follow. What I was pointing out was that the 10:30 medivac timing can be held with chargelots/archons and does not rely on "good engagements," but depending on how you handle the engagement it may or may not be as cost-efficient as you'd like (which was another reason kcdc brought up for not liking the OP's build). | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
On March 02 2012 03:06 Skyro wrote: The whole crux of any macro PvT build is holding the medivac timing, not just this build. And AFAIK kcdc is just stating he doesn't feel the trade-off of earlier 3rd for later upgrades is worth it, not that the medivac timing cannot be held. If the medivac timing couldn't be held then the build would not be viable simply because nearly every terran you face will be doing this push in some form or another. The 10:30 push can be held with chargelots and a few archons. No FFs/chokes necessary but obviously will make things more cost efficient for you. The build in the OP starts the twilight council at ~8 minutes and researches blink before charge. With perfectly chained chronoboost, the fastest charge can finish off of an 8:00 twilight council with blink first is 11:57. The build also doesn't have a templar archives started by 10:30. So the question is whether this fast third build can defend a 10:30 timing efficiently enough to benefit from the fast third. For a reference point, I'll compare the OP's build to my favorite PvT build (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=308519) which achieves a similar mid-game with charge, templar and lots of economy. The two builds get most of the same tech and upgrades, but the order in which they get that tech is different, particularly as it relates to the 10:30 medivac timing. The OP's build gets twilight -> 3rd base (starts at 8 minutes) -> blink -> charge (finishes at 12 minutes) -> templar archives -> double forge upgrades. My build gets single forge -> twilight -> templar archives -> start charge and storm (both finish at 10:30) -> 3rd base (starts at 10 minutes) So the OP's build gets a third base 2 minutes earlier, but has to defend the 10:30 timing with blink stalkers, slow zealots, and a few sentries whereas my build will have a slower third, but charge, storm and +1/+1 done in time for the 10:30 timing. How much value to you get out of a 2 minute earlier third base? With maximum saturation, that'd be about 1600 minerals, but the early third can't fully saturate all 3 bases right away. Let's call it a 1000 mineral difference: 10 zealots. Will a force of 0/0 blink stalkers, sentries and slow zealots take 1000+ minerals of damage against a well-executed medivac timing that a +1/+1 force of chargelots, templar and sentries wouldn't take? I think the answer to that question on a lot of maps will turn out to be yes. The only tool the OP's build has to deal with 10:30 stim kiting with medivacs is a bank of forcefields, and I think we all know that while forcefields are great, they have limited utility in that situation. It basically comes down to whether you can land perfect forcefields before T kites down your wall of zealots. If the map is Entombed Valley, you probably can. It it's Metalopolis, good luck. | ||
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Josh_rakoons
United Kingdom1158 Posts
On February 17 2012 00:33 CryMore wrote: When do you get your gases at your natural and third? I assume you are getting the natural gases after you start your third nexus, and the third ones immediately? Whenever you're taking a third base you will always need to take those gases immediately, if you dont then you're going to be incredibly mineral heavy. | ||
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Trusty
New Zealand520 Posts
I had never bothered to learn or practice the 4gate blink/obs all-in for PvT, until recently. I really enjoyed turning the tables on T with multi prong harass etc (although it's pretty heavy all in). Now I read this build, It's really exciting. I wonder if it's possible to add fast robo, to get a WP to help delay medivac timing with blink harass or zealot drop~ EDIT: Also, a question: When you are delaying/harass with small amount of blink stalkers, against bio that has conc + stim - what are your decisions regarding blink. Do you blink as a ball, which is the least 'effeceint' (in terms of wasted blinks), but maybe the safest - since you have less amount of stalkers getting conc'd. Or do you blink 1by1, which is more effeceint on blink usage, but maybe unsafer - since you have more stalkers getting hit by conc. I've noticed different people to different things, and sometimes a combo of both (blink 1 or 2 hurt stalkers, then just blink the rest of them at once). | ||
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Tortious_Tortoise
United States944 Posts
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
On March 02 2012 06:32 mbr2321 wrote: In what capacity would a Protoss respond to a 2 base biomech play? Jinro's done this kind of marine/tank/banshee 2-base push (I think it hits ~10 minutes but that's a shot in the dark) and it's worked incredibly well against Protoss (I specifically remember him killing Puzzle with it). #1: I don't think you'd wind up taking the fast third with this strategy as upon seeing no marauders, you'd have to worry about 2-base cloaked banshees, and you'd get a robo. #2: If you did take the fast third anyway, I think you'd be okay against a 2-base marine tank push. You'd definitely be able to pick off some units with your blink stalkers as the Terran army crosses the map, and on a lot of maps, you could double a group of stalkers back to pick off reinforcements. I doubt it'd be an easy defense, but with 8 gates and the mobility that blink gives you, you're in better position against this Terran push than you would be if you went, for example, double forge colossus. | ||
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Skyro
United States1823 Posts
On March 02 2012 05:38 kcdc wrote: The build in the OP starts the twilight council at ~8 minutes and researches blink before charge. With perfectly chained chronoboost, the fastest charge can finish off of an 8:00 twilight council with blink first is 11:57. The build also doesn't have a templar archives started by 10:30. So the question is whether this fast third build can defend a 10:30 timing efficiently enough to benefit from the fast third. For a reference point, I'll compare the OP's build to my favorite PvT build (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=308519) which achieves a similar mid-game with charge, templar and lots of economy. The two builds get most of the same tech and upgrades, but the order in which they get that tech is different, particularly as it relates to the 10:30 medivac timing. The OP's build gets twilight -> 3rd base (starts at 8 minutes) -> blink -> charge (finishes at 12 minutes) -> templar archives -> double forge upgrades. My build gets single forge -> twilight -> templar archives -> start charge and storm (both finish at 10:30) -> 3rd base (starts at 10 minutes) So the OP's build gets a third base 2 minutes earlier, but has to defend the 10:30 timing with blink stalkers, slow zealots, and a few sentries whereas my build will have a slower third, but charge, storm and +1/+1 done in time for the 10:30 timing. How much value to you get out of a 2 minute earlier third base? With maximum saturation, that'd be about 1600 minerals, but the early third can't fully saturate all 3 bases right away. Let's call it a 1000 mineral difference: 10 zealots. Will a force of 0/0 blink stalkers, sentries and slow zealots take 1000+ minerals of damage against a well-executed medivac timing that a +1/+1 force of chargelots, templar and sentries wouldn't take? I think the answer to that question on a lot of maps will turn out to be yes. The only tool the OP's build has to deal with 10:30 stim kiting with medivacs is a bank of forcefields, and I think we all know that while forcefields are great, they have limited utility in that situation. It basically comes down to whether you can land perfect forcefields before T kites down your wall of zealots. If the map is Entombed Valley, you probably can. It it's Metalopolis, good luck. I don't disagree with anything you say here, although I believe the OP does state to go for charge first if you don't "come out ahead" from his mid-game pushes. The OP's build is centered around pressure to weaken the terran's eventual push which is what he believes allows him to get away with getting blink first, although this is where it gets hazy in terms of how much damage needs to be done, etc. but I more or less agree with you. I was merely pointing out you can easily go for a more passive/defensive fast 3rd style and get your 3rd @ 7:20 which will increase your eco advantage when any timing hits, and still should be able to defend any pushes with chargelot/archon. I use this style because it is quite a bit easier to execute , but the OP's guide was quite helpful in terms of the information gained from the pokes at the terran's front. I also particularly like the 7:20 3rd b/c it lines up perfectly for when you would throw down your extra gates for a 6/7 gate, so you can very easily mix this opening up for a tournament series or whatever. | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
On March 02 2012 06:49 Skyro wrote: I don't disagree with anything you say here, although I believe the OP does state to go for charge first if you don't "come out ahead" from his mid-game pushes. The OP's build is centered around pressure to weaken the terran's eventual push which is what he believes allows him to get away with getting blink first, although this is where it gets hazy in terms of how much damage needs to be done, etc. but I more or less agree with you. I was merely pointing out you can easily go for a more passive/defensive fast 3rd style and get your 3rd @ 7:20 which will increase your eco advantage when any timing hits, and still should be able to defend any pushes with chargelot/archon. I use this style because it is quite a bit easier to execute , but the OP's guide was quite helpful in terms of the information gained from the pokes at the terran's front. I also particularly like the 7:20 3rd b/c it lines up perfectly for when you would throw down your extra gates for a 6/7 gate, so you can very easily mix this opening up for a tournament series or whatever. That sounds pretty similar to the idea I was theorycrafting today where I'd basically do my 2-base templar build with a quick forge, except I'd cut the forge, get a quick third instead, and then go double forge on 3 bases. I know you can get charge, storm, a forge and +1/+1 by 10:30, and the forge and +1/+1 costs 350/200, so you should be able to delay the third gas and the upgrades and get a ~7:30 third base instead. +1/+1 would be much later, but with 2 forges, I bet you'd hit +3/+3 at about the same time. | ||
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Skyro
United States1823 Posts
On March 02 2012 07:07 kcdc wrote: That sounds pretty similar to the idea I was theorycrafting today where I'd basically do my 2-base templar build with a quick forge, except I'd cut the forge, get a quick third instead, and then go double forge on 3 bases. I know you can get charge, storm, a forge and +1/+1 by 10:30, and the forge and +1/+1 costs 350/200, so you should be able to delay the third gas and the upgrades and get a ~7:30 third base instead. +1/+1 would be much later, but with 2 forges, I bet you'd hit +3/+3 at about the same time. Yes there are quite a few variations and I am not quite sure what is optimal/safe just yet. I started out initially throwing down 2 additional gates (for a total of 5) after my 3rd nexus in case of marine-tank pushes and perhaps apply a little pressure, then adding 3 gates ~9mins to help defend the medivac push. 8 gate chargelot/archon + 3 base economy can most definitely smash through early medivac timings. Obviously you can go for double forge instead of the 2 gates after your 3rd nexus and have +1/+1 done by the time medivacs hit but I don't think you can hold a marine-tank push w/ just 3 gates. | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
http://drop.sc/124673 | ||
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Skyro
United States1823 Posts
On March 02 2012 09:39 kcdc wrote: I think this will prove to be reasonably safe vs gasless FE. It's going to look pretty thin, but the BO can get a 6:20 third with charge and storm by 10:20. I wound up losing the game because it was my first time trying it out, but you can see that the build gave me a big advantage that I threw away like a boss. http://drop.sc/124673 I dunno it seems from that replay you get way too much infrastructure too fast. You're getting double upgrades and fast teching to templar and just a couple (I think it was 2?) gates. I think a naked 4-rax or a marine-tank would just smash right through you (and you gotta station at least 1 stalker outside his ramp to detect these pushes coming). Nor did you poke his front throughout to check his comp. Also IMO it's not worth teching up that fast to templar and you don't need storm to fend off medivac timings. That first engagement you just didn't have enough of an actual army. What's the point of upgrades if you don't have the army to benefit from it? If you really want to incorporate early upgrades I would first go single forge for +1 armor initially. | ||
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BlinkGosu
United States46 Posts
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
On March 02 2012 11:37 Skyro wrote: I dunno it seems from that replay you get way too much infrastructure too fast. You're getting double upgrades and fast teching to templar and just a couple (I think it was 2?) gates. I think a naked 4-rax or a marine-tank would just smash right through you (and you gotta station at least 1 stalker outside his ramp to detect these pushes coming). Nor did you poke his front throughout to check his comp. Also IMO it's not worth teching up that fast to templar and you don't need storm to fend off medivac timings. That first engagement you just didn't have enough of an actual army. What's the point of upgrades if you don't have the army to benefit from it? If you really want to incorporate early upgrades I would first go single forge for +1 armor initially. Going to disagree--I can't recall how active I was with my stalker that game, but I do generally scout the front with it. I'm pretty sure I did, but if I didn't, it was an oversight. As for the number of units, I defend 4 naked rax off of 2 gate zealot with 3 sentries all the time. It's pretty crazy how greedy you can get away with being. Lastly, I didn't feel short on units at all for his push--I just screwed up the control. I'm not really sure whether it's better to get the 6:20 third or to get earlier upgrades. Upgrades are really really good PvT.... | ||
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Skyro
United States1823 Posts
On March 02 2012 14:47 kcdc wrote: Going to disagree--I can't recall how active I was with my stalker that game, but I do generally scout the front with it. I'm pretty sure I did, but if I didn't, it was an oversight. As for the number of units, I defend 4 naked rax off of 2 gate zealot with 3 sentries all the time. It's pretty crazy how greedy you can get away with being. Lastly, I didn't feel short on units at all for his push--I just screwed up the control. I'm not really sure whether it's better to get the 6:20 third or to get earlier upgrades. Upgrades are really really good PvT.... Hm we probably deal with naked 4-rax a lot differently. I post early stalkers outside his base and continually poke his front and kite naked 4-rax marines across the map if he pushes out. You sort of had 1 stalker in b/w your bases. So you actually just power through naked 4-rax with zealot/sentry off of 2-gates? Interesting. How about marine-tank though? Usually that hits around 8:30 and at that point you are still sitting on 2 active gates. Do you somehow sniff this coming beforehand and are able to deviate? I take back what I said about the upgrades. For some reason I thought you got them earlier than you did, but I rewatched the replay and that was a good timing for them. In that particular replay you could have probably held with better control yes, but in my experiences it does seems easier to hold any pre-12 minute pushes with just chargelot/archon backed with more gates than rushing storm like that. Personally I think you would've just smashed that initial army posturing outside your base if you flanked his army from 2 sides with chargelot/archon IMO. And as for regards to an early 3rd vs. faster upgrades I definitely prefer the faster 3rd since to me it isn't soft countered by terran going for a fast 3rd. I feel PvT late game really favors Protoss as well. | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
On March 02 2012 15:58 Skyro wrote: Hm we probably deal with naked 4-rax a lot differently. I post early stalkers outside his base and continually poke his front and kite naked 4-rax marines across the map if he pushes out. You sort of had 1 stalker in b/w your bases. So you actually just power through naked 4-rax with zealot/sentry off of 2-gates? Interesting. How about marine-tank though? Usually that hits around 8:30 and at that point you are still sitting on 2 active gates. Do you somehow sniff this coming beforehand and are able to deviate? I take back what I said about the upgrades. For some reason I thought you got them earlier than you did, but I rewatched the replay and that was a good timing for them. In that particular replay you could have probably held with better control yes, but in my experiences it does seems easier to hold any pre-12 minute pushes with just chargelot/archon backed with more gates than rushing storm like that. Personally I think you would've just smashed that initial army posturing outside your base if you flanked his army from 2 sides with chargelot/archon IMO. And as for regards to an early 3rd vs. faster upgrades I definitely prefer the faster 3rd since to me it isn't soft countered by terran going for a fast 3rd. I feel PvT late game really favors Protoss as well. The reason I like to rush out storm for the medivac timing has less to do with defending a frontal push (for which feedback -> archon works fine) and more to do with how efficiently storms deal with drops. To deal with drops, I feel like you either need a squad of blink stalkers or storm,, and if you have time for storm, it actually costs less and works much better. IMO, a build that gets storm out by 10:20 can skip the stalkers, and as a stalker-hater, that seems like a big win to me. It's a style difference tho. I try to cut stalkers out of any build that I can cut them out, but a lot of people seem to like stalkers just fine. | ||
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