[G]Gateway Pressure, Fast 3 Base PvT

iamke55

United States2806 Posts

February 15 2012 07:06 GMT

Introduction
Summary: 4 gate pressure, fast third base, only to be used against gasless FE. Hard to execute.

Due to early scouting issues, passive play in PvT can be very weak in the current metagame. The standard 1 gate FE that builds a nexus on 30 supply was designed to be used against Terran’s gas openers. In order to win against gasless FE builds, you need to either play greedier, or be so much better than your opponent that 30 supply deficits are completely manageable. The fast triple orbital opening in particular, especially when Terrans throw caution to the wind and follow it up with double ebay, destroys passive Protoss who don’t know how to play a proper attacking game. Sure you could play guessing games and randomly decide to build your nexus earlier than 30, or get lucky and scout your opponent on the first try, or 7 gate all-in every game, but none of these are reliable. This guide details a strategy, which when executed properly, allows you to combat these gasless FE builds while going for the 30 nexus opening (the safest FE build). Upon confirming the Terran did indeed go for a gasless FE, you will pressure their front with gateway units to slow down their midgame attacks while taking a fast third base to compensate for your relatively late natural. This build is extremely difficult to play so it’s not for low apm players, but when mastered allows you to avoid those situations where you’re down by 30 supply solely due to build order poker. If you can macro on 3 bases while kiting a bio ball across the map with blink stalkers, you’re ready to use this build! This guide can be very good for ladder as I assume the worst case scenario: you scout the Terran last on a 4 player map and don't see anything with the probe, and then there's a low ground bunker by the time you try to scout next with the first stalker.

The guide will be arranged in an unconventional layout, but I think it will make the strategy easier to understand. It will be less of a strict build order and more of a decision making tree on how to pull ahead vs Terran players who open with the fast low ground CC.

There are many references to MC's 1 gate FE throughout this guide, as you'll often have to switch to that build depending on what you scout. You can find it here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=294136

Step 1: The Opening Build
If you don’t already know the 30 nexus build, you probably haven’t played Protoss enough to benefit from this guide. Nevertheless, here it goes:

9 pylon
2 chrono boosts on probes
13 gate, scout with probe
14 assimilator
Chrono probes again
16 pylon
17/18 core
19 zealot
Stalker (chrono boost it) and warpgate research when done

At this point if your probe already found the Terran base, there can be some decisions you have to make. If you saw no gas and a low ground command center, you can just build a nexus immediately and make whatever changes you need to get the rest of the to build work. I recommend cutting the stalkers completely and using only 3 gates so you can get the third base up faster. If you saw gas, then you switch to MC’s 1 gate FE. If you got walled out, you don’t have enough information to decide yet. If you didn’t scout right on the first try, you probably won’t see anything important so just figure out the Terran’s starting position and run your probe the instant you see a marine. You must not lose the scouting probe, so babysit it whenever it’s about to approach a starting location and get ready to right click away the instant you see a marine. For reference, the first marine comes out at 3:09.

Step 2: The First Poke
If you already ruled out a gasless FE, you should’ve abandoned the build by now and switched to MC’s 1 gate FE. Some of you might remember me writing a blog explaining SuperNova’s genius build where he faked the gasless FE and tricked MC into doing this build. This part of the strategy is designed to detect the difference between a real expansion and a fake one when there is a bunker on the low ground. Here’s what you do if you haven’t confirmed or ruled out gasless FE yet:

24/25 pylon, send first zealot and stalker to Terran’s base
Second stalker when the first one is done
30 nexus, keep the second stalker at home if you saw gas or pressure with it otherwise

At this point, attack with your zealot/stalker/probe. The stalker should be 1 cm ahead of the zealot and probe because it has the most shields, and is thus least likely to take hull damage. Right click the probe past the bunker and check for a low ground expansion (if they immediately target the probe, run the zealot past instead. A zealot and a bunker are both 100 minerals so it’s okay to trade the zealot for scouting information). Try to retreat the zealot and stalker before taking hull damage if possible. If you don’t see a command center, or lose the probe without getting far enough to see it, switch to MC’s 1 gate FE (usually 30 gate, 30 gate, 30 robo). If you do see the command center, make a pylon, sentry, and add 3 more gates while sending another probe to build a proxy pylon. Take your second gas and get ready to pressure!

The zealot and stalker distracted the bunker long enough for the probe to see the expansion.

Note that you can also play this build against 1 rax reactor FE, but it’s slightly riskier because they can get a faster cloaked banshee than the no gas opening.

Step 3: The 7:30 Poke

You’ve confirmed a no gas FE by this point, right? If not, read the last section more carefully! You should’ve already switched to MC’s 1 gate FE if you didn’t see the command center.

At around 7:30, you should have either 9 or 10 gateway units (I prefer 4 sentries, 2 stalkers, and 4 zealots at this point if I didn’t scout the FE in time to cut stalkers, otherwise just sentry/zealot is good) at the proxy pylon. Walk into the ramp, but don’t use guardian shield or force fields yet! What you see will influence the rest of the build.

1 or 2 bunkers, 8 marines or fewer: this is likely cloaked banshees followed by either the 2 base “1/1/1” with banshee/tank, or Sage/jjakji’s banshee thor build. Make a robo ASAP and try to do as much damage as you can with your units. Meanwhile at home, switch your strategy to whatever you do against the 2 base 1/1/1.
There are already 3 bunkers: this is probably the fast 3 orbital build. You can continue with step 4, or if you’re super paranoid you can get detection. This is a bit tricky because fast cloaked banshees don’t actually have enough marines to fill all 3 bunkers yet so they usually stick with 2. If you do see marauder shots this early in the game with 3 bunkers, you can just build a nexus and a twilight council immediately.
Mass marines with no marauder, or you got attacked by mass marines before you poked: this is gasless FE into 4 or 5 rax marine pressure. I haven’t seen this enough to know exactly what to do, but what’s worked for me so far is to just continue on with step 4 because zealots under a guardian shield will always trade effectively against un-upgraded marines. You might be able to just add 3 more gates and all-in because the stim research is so late, but I haven’t tried that yet.
Marauder: this is most likely the standard build (3 rax then starport). This is your cue to continue with step 4.

This is a scouting poke only. You should not try to do damage yet unless you see something like 1 bunker with only a few units around it.

Step 4: the pre-Stim Poke
At this point you should still be following the guide only if you’ve confirmed no gas FE, and also confirmed that there are no cloaked banshees. You should build a twilight council immediately. Depending on how many bunkers you think the Terran has building, you can either attack after warping in a round of zealots (13-14 total units), or attack after warping in 2 more rounds of zealots (16-18 units depending on whether you lost the first zealot and how hard you chrono boosted probes). I like to be around 16 units for this because you need to cut probes or the twilight council to have more. Your attack should begin no later than 8:40, and retreat no later than 8:55, the time when stim usually finishes if they skipped concussive shell.

What happens during this attack is very important! Spread your units into an arc with zealots in front, guardian shield, and attack. After you’ve practiced the build enough, you should always be able to either come out ahead or even with it. There are a few different situations that can happen:

Terran has 3 bunkers and SCVs ready to repair: You’re not going to break this with anything short of a 6 gate so don’t even try. Your job here is done. By forcing the Terran to spend his minerals on bunkers and pulling SCVs, you’ve already done enough damage to delay his midgame push.
0 or 1 bunker: with guardian shield, your zealots basically have +2 armor already and the Terran units can’t have stim, +1, etc yet so you can trade cost-effectively. Kill as many units as you can and retreat. This is the best case scenario because not only did you kill units, you probably forced the Terran to go up to 3 bunkers anyways in case you were doing a 6 gate.
2 bunkers: This is the hardest situation to decide what to do. You can trade cost-effectively if there aren’t repairing SCVs, or force a third bunker if SCVs are already there.
Terran moves out before you attack: you should pretty much slaughter his army since he has no SCVs or bunkers to protect it.

Now you might be wondering, why is it good to force 3 bunkers? This strategy revolves around getting a very early third nexus, which costs 300 minerals when you consider that it also doubles as a pylon. 3 bunkers are also 300 minerals, greatly nullifying any attacker’s advantage your opponent gained from you expanding so early. If Terran spends those 300 minerals on 2 more barracks instead, then the midgame medivac pressure can be hard to deal with.

You came out ahead here, right? If not, take a third base and skip blink in favor of going straight for chargelot/archon, then remember to practice the build more so that the poke doesn’t put you behind. At this point you should’ve either forced multiple bunkers or gotten good trades when killing marines and marauders. Build the third nexus at 9 minutes (if you don’t already have it from making a read earlier), go up to 8 gates, and start chronoing out blink. At this point you should start warping in more stalkers. If you traded extremely well, you can pretty much do whatever you want (MC likes to get colossi, blink, and double forges at once) but otherwise move on to step 5.

MC is trading well here thanks to guardian shield

Step 5: Blink Harass and 3 Bases
If you’re still following the guide, then here’s what happened in the game so far: you went 1 gate FE against a gasless FE, poked with units twice and either traded well, forced extra bunkers, or both. Upon pulling ahead with the poke, you took a third base and got blink. Now you have a group of blink stalkers and you’re beginning to saturate your third. The situation might seem very game specific, but every Terran and their mother starts pressuring once they have medivacs so you can take the following steps to prepare for it.
First, you need to start getting charge and additional gateways the instant blink finishes, and then chrono boost charge as much as possible while using the extras on probes. Poke with the stalkers as soon as you have blink and see what the Terran has. If he still doesn’t have medivacs, it’s probably a double ebay build so build 2 forges immediately. If he does have medivacs and is trying to push with them, it’s safer to go up to 8 gates, get a templar archives, fifth and sixth assimilators, and start massing chargelots. You should already have probes in position to see drops so this push is the Terran’s only way to attack! Slow it down as much as you can with your stalkers by picking off units and blinking away. If the Terran gets to your base in time to win the game, you probably need more practice with the build. Either manage the pre-stim poke better, control the blink stalkers better, chrono boost blink and charge more, remember to add more gates, or all of the above! The moment Terran lets off the pressure (or you crush it with chargelots) and retreats to secure his own third, you have complete control over the game.

Here's where you use blink stalkers to delay his push even further.

Step 6: 3 Saturated Bases
Has everything gone according to plan so far? If so, you should have 3 bases saturated with about 70 probes, chargelot/archon tech, and 2 forges. Meanwhile Terran has given up his attempt to kill you in order to secure his own third base. You have the advantage if Terran played standard, but if the Terran went for a triple orbital build then the game is even. From here you should be comfortable and can play the mid-late game however you want, but I’ll give my recommendations.

Chargelot/archon beats anything Terran can have at this stage of the game, so you have map control. As soon as Terran retreats, you need to put pressure back on him immediately by chasing his army and setting up a proxy pylon to threaten his third base. By now your infrastructure should consist of 2 forges, 10 gateways (because zealots and templars are very cheap relative to their build time), and a robo or 2. You are in prime position to take a fourth base and start pumping out double robo colossi, but since you are swimming in minerals and gas at this point, why not attack at the same time? You have chargelots, blink stalkers, and archons, but your opponent does not yet have the 10 ghost, 10 medivac, 3/3 bio deathball so it will be very hard for him to hold his third. This also buys you time to set up drop defenses as you’ll be on 4 or 5 bases very soon.

After weathering the storm in the midgame, I have a massive army, 4 bases, 3/3 upgrades on the way, and am transitioning into colossi.

Variations
The specific steps I have listed give you the safest way I have found to play the fast third base style, but if you want to take risks to strengthen your position, there are many ways to change it up. Here are some I can think of:

You can play this way with a nexus first as well, which gives you some extra resources to do other stuff while pressuring. I haven’t learned the build yet but I heard it’s safe against any reactive Terran opening (i.e. not proxy rax or proxy reactor hellions).
If you see no gas and guess that your opponent is opening gasless FE, you can build the nexus earlier than 30. This is good against the metagame because no gas almost always means a fast expansion on current maps, but if they do go for a marine/SCV cheese instead, you really need the 2 stalkers. If you’re a no-name player and you’re playing a progamer in a tournament, it is pretty much a 100% chance that no gas = fast expansion.
Any FE vs FE scenario – while the guide is aimed specifically at playing safe vs gasless FE, you can play the same style against other Terran builds as long as they involve marauders and expanding. The only problem is that it is difficult to tell whether gas openings will expand or stay on 1 base. 1 rax reactor FE probably plays out the closest to gasless FE. With other Terran openings, you often can’t tell whether the Terran is expanding or not, or whether he’s skipping concussive shells for faster stim, but you can still try guessing his build or get lucky scouting. You’ll have to adjust the timings to take into account the different times when gas openings finish researching stim.
MC’s style – instead of getting a fast blink, MC likes to do the pre-stim poke and then decide whether he wants a robo or twilight council first. By delaying the twilight council, he squeezes out 1-2 more units. I don’t have his micro so I want blink and charge as soon as possible to be safe.
You can take a faster third, possibly even before 8 minutes. This is risky because your pressure is weaker so you rely on Terran overreacting to the threat. The upside is that you’re obviously in a better situation economically, which helps against builds like triple orbital + double ebay. If you see 3 bunkers though, it’s not risky.
You can get storm in addition to, or instead of archons. This makes it harder for Terran to defend against your 3 base aggression, but I don’t know if it’s safe against medivac pressure.
I usually make 4 sentries so I can’t use any sentry spells during the 7:30 poke or I’ll have nothing left for the pre-stim poke. If you make more sentries, you can be more liberal with FF/GS usage. If you feel comfortable cutting the stalkers, then it is easy to get more sentries.
If you’re not confident in your mechanics and always forget to chrono boost charge, you can make 2 twilight councils to be safe. It sounds stupid and I actually discovered it on accident, but it’s only 150/100 and really reduces the chance of charge not being done in time for the Terran’s midgame push.

FAQs

I died to cloaked banshees. Help!
Read the guide again! You’re only supposed to do this against gasless FE. If they had a low ground bunker and you couldn’t get the probe or zealot past it, you can’t rule out gas builds yet.

My opponent opened gasless FE and I still died to cloaked banshees! What now?
Don’t forget the 7:30 poke. If you want to be safe, build the robo the instant you see no marauders and no mass marines.

I saw no gas and assumed a fast expo, but the Terran actually had maka raxes and marine/SCV cheesed me. How do I defend this?
You took a risk building the nexus earlier than 30 supply and got punished for it. If not, then your stalker micro needs work. You can try buying time for free stalker shots by walling off your ramp with pylons, but other than that you just need to kite marines better and learn to surround stuff with probes.

What if my opponent went for a 2 base ghost timing?
I haven’t seen this once since the EMP nerf, but it is conceivable that you’ll run into one eventually so I’ll theorycraft an answer. You need to split your units outside of the opponent’s natural anyways so that should soften the blow. As you’re retreating before stim finishes regardless of the build, you can always run back to your base. Since the build doesn’t have enough free supply or minerals to be constantly chrono boosting probes, you should have plenty of nexus energy to spam on your 4 warpgates.

I suck at multitasking. Can I still use this build?
Yes but you’ll have to skip the blink stalkers and go straight for chargelot/archon. Drops become harder to defend because you give up map control, but you’re swimming in minerals anyway so you can make cannons.

What maps are good/bad for this build
A good map should be large so you have more time to blink-kite the medivac push. It should have an easy natural so Terrans actually use the gasless FE. If there is an easy gold base, that’s very good for you because you’ll definitely take your third before the Terran does. Daybreak and Antiga Shipyard are examples of good maps for this style. I can’t think of any popular maps with an easy gold base, but when I used a less refined build in the past I liked Shattered Temple.

A bad map for this build has an open natural, so Terran uses openings other than gasless FE. Therefore you should probably practice your 1/1/1 defense and immortal timing attacks instead on such maps. Tal’Darim Altar is decent due to its size but annoying because the rocks slow down your third base by a lot.

How do you defend against drops without observers?
The pre-stim poke should make the Terran not want to leave his base until he has 4 medivacs. By this time you can be blink-kiting his army across the map. Also you have some probes around the map for vision. Later on you do have observers, though a Terran is unlikely to drop when there’s a maxed chargelot/archon army at his doorstep.

I didn’t see a CC so I built a robo, but it turned out the CC was in his main. Is this supposed to happen?
If the CC is still in his main by the time you sneak a probe past his bunker, his economy is probably not strong enough to punish passive robo play anyways so you’re fine. This guide is aimed at the low ground CC builds that can get to 100 supply in 10 minutes flat. You can make double forge builds work here, as well as 2 base colossus with sentry drops.

I am a Korean progamer with 300 apm. How can I play this strategy even better?
I don’t expect any such players to be reading this, but I’ll give an answer anyway for those of you who want a goal to work toward. For mere mortals, the blink kiting consists of picking off a unit and then blinking everything away. If you wanted to play perfectly though, then you should still focus down units but blink back individual stalkers and run them away from the battle so you can kill more units. There are Code S players who aren’t comfortable microing like this so it’s probably not feasible for anyone reading. I’ve only seen HerO control his units like this consistently, and he certainly wasn’t macroing off of 3 bases while doing so.

Replays
Me vs KungFuEeyore: http://drop.sc/112442
I saw 3 bunkers very early so I took my third nexus a minute earlier than usual instead of attacking. He played the game exactly how I wanted him to so it was no problem taking a 5th base 14 minutes in and rolling over his stuff with chargelot/archon from 12 gates.

Me vs vVvStarkad: http://drop.sc/112441
I was about to do MC’s 1 gate FE when I saw his gas opening, but then I scouted his 1 rax reactor FE just in time to continue with the 4 gates. I didn’t have charge in time for his push because the map distance was so short, so I traded badly on the ramp. Nevertheless, I had a huge economy and rolled him.

Me vs LaGTtFaith: http://drop.sc/114603

I made some mistakes losing units early on and we both blind countered each other based on the previous 2 games so it's not a perfect replay, but he is the best Terran I've beaten so far. If we didn't know exactly what to expect from each other, I would've had to build 2 stalkers in case of a 3 rax cheese and he would've had to make more than 1 bunker in case I was doing a 2 base all-in.

Oz vs Jinro: http://drop.sc/97233
This is what the build looks like when executed perfectly. Oz got lucky with his early scouting and saw Jinro’s second barracks, so he took the third nexus earlier than usual.

ccJroy

United States483 Posts

February 15 2012 07:21 GMT

Interesting. Will try it out. Can't figure out a good "Standard" build vs gasless FE.

monk

United States8476 Posts

February 15 2012 07:22 GMT

So this is what you've been doing instead of playing uberena with me and randy.

CecilSunkure

United States2829 Posts

February 15 2012 07:25 GMT

On February 15 2012 16:22 NrGmonk wrote:
So this is what you've been doing instead of playing uberena with me and randy.

Yeah man, ;;

Dude very awesome guide. I can see the love pouring out of it! Going to be using this no doubt in the next few days! Thanks ke!

ander

Canada403 Posts

February 15 2012 07:54 GMT

Well done guide. This is one of a few really solid builds i've seen used lately that i've been meaning to try, but i figured i'd wait for a guide :D

Xanatoss

Germany539 Posts

February 15 2012 08:29 GMT

More knowledge about PvT. Team Protoss strikes again. Almost feel bad about few T&Z Guides on TL. Great Work 8]

InVerno

258 Posts

February 15 2012 12:09 GMT

Well done iamke.
I've saw a build with the same concept but a little different here

http://bcove.me/yqfpf57u
http://bcove.me/ldohsfhn

And i prefer this version, with pure zealots and sentrys .. i can perform the same push (in terms of damage)
a little bit earlier (7.00 - 7.10) with a polite execution of the build.
Btw. with 5\6 rax pure marines (bunkers or not) i think the right thing to do is simply put down 2 defensive forcefields
and go back to the xelnaga with a warpin of stalkers.. i believe can be a bad trade and very risky.

Thx for the guide, i was wondering why none have done this first, looks like a new standard in TvP and its awesome!

iamke55

United States2806 Posts

February 15 2012 12:36 GMT

Yeah, I would go pure zealot/sentry off of 3 gates if I knew for sure that Terran is going for an early expansion. But there are many players who won't build the command center until your probe leaves, so you have to get 2 stalkers just in case. About the mass marine builds, I agree you can trade badly against it if you're caught off guard. You should definitely retreat your first units if Terran moves out before you have a round of warp-in units, but after you start warping in units you should have the better army. I still haven't run into it enough to test out whether you can exploit their delayed stim by switching to a 7 gate all-in.

Connor987

United Kingdom103 Posts

February 15 2012 12:48 GMT

really good guide, will try it out but as in diamond everyone just gets gas and expands after pushing without fail I dont think i'll get to do it too often, if you get through the short drop window after the first push you're miles ahead

InVerno

258 Posts

February 15 2012 13:05 GMT

#10

Any experience about the right timing of the 3\4 gas? With the 7min push, u constantly add tank with zealot, spending almost all your econonomy on minerals while you're on 2 gas. And the gas go up very quickly. Even if i've saw this build only 3\4 times (winning first of any type of transition), i've done a archon transition simply because my gas grows too much every time.
Btw in case of 5\6 rax pure marines, i know its very rought to say because its an old metagame, but i prefer retreat quickly, put down 2 robos and go straight up for a colossi allin while i stay on 2 base. Ofc on maps with the a ramp on the natural..its not so "elegant" but all that marines are potential massive drops\multipronged in earlymidgame, a third could be impossibile to defend.

Swap

Sweden144 Posts

February 15 2012 13:14 GMT

#11

This is so damn good. Cant wait to come home from work and watch the replays!

monk

United States8476 Posts

February 15 2012 14:00 GMT

#12

Since you're a mod, you might want to change the title of your guide. It's quite confusing and I've had people tell me that it's a 1 base 4 gate into 3 base build, which is pretty funny. Probably change it to 2 base 4 gate pressure, fast 3 base PvT or something.

FredYuanme

United States30 Posts

February 15 2012 19:51 GMT

#13

Why do you take blink over charge after you pressure with the 4 gate? I would think charge is safer against a terran that just says I'll attack you at 10 min with 5 rax marine marauder (prob 2 reactor 3 tech lab so a lot of marines). I saw the replay you played against kungfu and you just finished charge in time. If he had decided to just push a little bit earlier, I think you might have been in some more trouble.

iamke55

United States2806 Posts

February 15 2012 23:08 GMT

#14

I get blink first because I think I can get away with it. I believe that if I force enough bunkers with my pressure, I can have blink in time for the Terran leaving his base with medivacs. And if I have blink in time to kite his units across the map, I can slow him down enough so that charge finishes in time. Even if it doesn't, I've seen MC hold the medivac push without charge by using good force fields. If I skip blink, I may have charge earlier but I lose the ability to constantly engage the Terran's army so he can load up units for drops without me noticing his army's lower unit count. I used to lose to that a lot, especially on close positions Antiga, before I realized the twilight council needs to be built before the nexus.

I changed the name of the thread because I sometimes only make 3 gates.

ZeromuS

Canada13386 Posts

February 15 2012 23:43 GMT

#15

I've skimmed through and it looks really good. Seems like I don't quite have the multitasking for it but tomorrow I will have more time to sit down and thread through in detail and watch the replays.

Will hopefully have some more to ask or comment on then

thanks again for such an awesome guide, we protoss are really lucky we have so many good guides being posted on here for us.

vaderseven

United States2556 Posts

February 16 2012 01:11 GMT

#16

You can see alot of this style in use on korean streams as of late. I was working on stealing it as well, thanks for your notes!

BoondockVeritas

United States191 Posts

February 16 2012 04:09 GMT

#17

I remember seeing an occasional 3gate attack into double expand, but this is so much more detailed

BearStorm

United States795 Posts

February 16 2012 04:44 GMT

#18

I love how you addressed all the major issues I've been having using the MC 30nex build. Thanks.

sofakng

100 Posts

February 16 2012 05:49 GMT

#19

Ive been taking a fast third vs a variety of things terran have been doing. I usually do huks expo with heavy pressure into the fast third to keep myself a bit safer and get a better scout. or just 1 gate double expo if they gasless on larger maps and chrono out a few extra stalkers to defend against early marine pressure. I havent lost a game getting a super fast third yet vs some well known players. I approve :D

CryMore

United States497 Posts

February 16 2012 15:33 GMT

#20

When do you get your gases at your natural and third? I assume you are getting the natural gases after you start your third nexus, and the third ones immediately?

Arcanefrost

Belgium1257 Posts

February 16 2012 16:42 GMT

#21

What's the advantage of this over parting style triple nexus into 8gate pressure? I feel like parting's build is slightly better.

CaptainHaz

United States240 Posts

February 16 2012 16:52 GMT

#22

On February 17 2012 01:42 Arcanefrost wrote:
What's the advantage of this over parting style triple nexus into 8gate pressure? I feel like parting's build is slightly better.

I believe that Parting's build is weaker vs a naked rax marine push following the expand.

iamke55

United States2806 Posts

February 16 2012 18:12 GMT

#23

On February 17 2012 01:42 Arcanefrost wrote:
What's the advantage of this over parting style triple nexus into 8gate pressure? I feel like parting's build is slightly better.

This build is safe against marine/SCV pushes and 2 base cloaked banshee.

About the timing of the 3rd to 6th gases, I get 3-4 just after starting the third nexus and 5-6 when I feel safe. I usually feel safe if I stop the Terran's 2 base medivac push or if I finish getting blink and there are no signs of a medivac push coming.

Protossking

Australia103 Posts

February 18 2012 12:05 GMT

#24

I LOVE this build, I really do I'm beating players who are just better than me basically. One question: Viability on Shakuras? Even with one bunker they can hold pressure easily with depots and 1-2 SCVs pulled. Without this economic damage of forced bunkers and pulling SCVs I don't really feel the build is that strong. This is the only map I'm struggling with due to the narrow ramp. Also I made the mistake of taking the third near my main rather than the natural on the other side of the map which lead to quicker stim + medivac travel time, I probably could have held with one - two more chronoboosted warp-ins.

Micket

United Kingdom2163 Posts

February 18 2012 12:14 GMT

#25

Why are Protoss players such good teachers? I need Terran guides that aren't 'how to mech vs Protoss', 'Thor Raven vs Zerg', 'Battlecruiser Rush' or stuff like that. Where is the 'MVP's reactor hellion triple orbital vs Zerg' guide? It is such a common build in GSL atm and reading TL makes me think it doesn't exist.

This is the sort of build that crushes me in TvP. I can't tell between a gateway all in and pressure. Should I scan nat gasses to see whether there is a tech transition?

Arcanefrost

Belgium1257 Posts

February 18 2012 21:51 GMT

#26

I'm a big fan of fast thirds in pvt, and i am working on the ideal mix between parting style double nex and this one. I've been going 1gate fe->2 more gates -> 6minish third -> more gates and pressure. Really like this style because it's so easy to get a huge econ lead. I think it's important to get fast ht for storm and archons to deal with 2base allins and heavy drop play.

iamke55

United States2806 Posts

February 18 2012 22:08 GMT

#27

After matching LaGTtFaith 3 times in a row, I determined that the 3rd and 4th gases should not be built as early as I originally recommended. It is better to go up to 8 gates as soon as possible to deflect the medivac pressure and then add 4 assimilators once you hold it off. Here is the replay after I made the change: http://drop.sc/114603

I made some mistakes losing units early on and we both blind countered each other based on the previous 2 games so it's not a perfect replay, but he is the best Terran I've beaten so far. If we didn't know exactly what to expect from each other, I would've had to build 2 stalkers in case of a 3 rax cheese and he would've had to make more than 1 bunker in case I was doing a 2 base all-in.

KalWarkov

Germany4126 Posts

February 18 2012 22:13 GMT

#28

you need more gates @ OP, 1.6k mins on minute 16, thats 16 zealots you could have more (lets say 10, you wouldve needed some more gates as well and youre never on 0, right).

Otherwise nice build, but if he just pushes on 2 base with 4 medivacs and more or less ignores your blink-harass, youre in trouble.

User was warned for this post

weikor

Austria580 Posts

February 18 2012 22:47 GMT

#29

After watching the OZ game wich he obviously won - but are you sure beeing behind by 4 (2/2) upgrades is acceptable vs terran?
I might agree that players have been rushing for upgrades too much, but wouldnt you be able to do something similar with 7 gate +forge, or even cut probes add forge and have at least armor going?

Tsutchie

Australia951 Posts

February 19 2012 04:44 GMT

#30

after the initial push where you come out even against T, what do u do if you think they are going for a 2 base all in where they will be pulling all scv along with their units.

Skyro

United States1823 Posts

February 19 2012 10:14 GMT

#31

On February 17 2012 03:12 iamke55 wrote:

Show nested quote +

If you using a 7:30 poke to determine if they are going cloaked banshees then I don't see how this build is any safer than parting's build which gets the 3rd Nexus ~6m but still can afford a robo @ 7:30.

Also what marine/SCV push are you referring to? I've only seen the 1-base naked 2-rax version with supply drop.

Currently I'm working on a 20-Nexus (more or less Huk's 1-Gate FE opener) and then using my first round of warp-ins on Stalkers (5 total) which I use to poke their front a little bit after 6 mins. 5 Stalkers keeps you safe from marine/SCV all-ins with proper micro as well as any naked 4/5-Rax pushes. I grab my 3rd Nexus behind this ~7:20 (while warping in Sentries at home).

You can be quite aggressive with these 5 Stalkers on maps where there's no ramp at the natural, and you can often prevent additional Bunkers and/or other buildings that they might be using to wall-off. I'm pretty sure that if they straight tech to cloak Banshees they wouldn't be able to stop even 3-Gate pressure at this timing since they are relying on a single rax.

And that's another bonus of doing it this way since it's right @ 7:20 that you decide to throw down either a 3rd Nexus or an additional 4-Gates to go 7-Gate all-in.

Warzilla

Czech Republic311 Posts

February 19 2012 10:40 GMT

#32

On February 19 2012 07:13 KalWarkov wrote:
you need more gates @ OP, 1.6k mins on minute 16, thats 16 zealots you could have more (lets say 10, you wouldve needed some more gates as well and youre never on 0, right).

Otherwise nice build, but if he just pushes on 2 base with 4 medivacs and more or less ignores your blink-harass, youre in trouble.

Did you speedread through the thread or something ? Otherwise youre a troll i think its explained well in the guide

-stOpSKY-

Canada498 Posts

February 19 2012 11:01 GMT

#33

On February 19 2012 07:08 iamke55 wrote:
After matching LaGTtFaith 3 times in a row, I determined that the 3rd and 4th gases should not be built as early as I originally recommended. It is better to go up to 8 gates as soon as possible to deflect the medivac pressure and then add 4 assimilators once you hold it off. Here is the replay after I made the change: http://drop.sc/114603

I made some mistakes losing units early on and we both blind countered each other based on the previous 2 games so it's not a perfect replay, but he is the best Terran I've beaten so far. If we didn't know exactly what to expect from each other, I would've had to build 2 stalkers in case of a 3 rax cheese and he would've had to make more than 1 bunker in case I was doing a 2 base all-in.

In that rep you didnt get any obs. All you scouted at the front were some marines and 2 bunker, how could you be sure there is no cloak banshee coming?

Teoita

Italy12246 Posts

February 19 2012 11:57 GMT

#34

On February 19 2012 19:14 Skyro wrote:

Show nested quote +

You only use this build against a no gas/1rax fe terran, which means the timing for cloak banshees is (afaik) 9 minutes or so. So yes, a 7.30 poke is actually safe against such a delayed cloak build.

iamke55

United States2806 Posts

February 19 2012 12:30 GMT

#35

On February 19 2012 19:14 Skyro wrote:

Show nested quote +

Puzzle tried Parting's build against Gumiho on Metropolis and lost to cloaked banshees. Parting might be able to afford a robo at 7:30, but I've never seen him build it. If he did, I imagine it would be blind so it slows down the 8 gate timing attack. The marine/SCV push I'm talking about is off of 4 or 5 barracks after an expansion. I remember those being an auto-win against 1 gate expo builds that make a robo before gates 2 and 3 on maps other than Shakuras, so it is safe to assume that it also beats the 1 gate 3 nexus opening. As for the build you're working on, it sounds strong against any marine/SCV attacks but I don't think you would have enough sentries early enough to threaten a 2 base all-in.

On February 19 2012 20:01 -stOpSKY- wrote:

Show nested quote +

In that rep you didnt get any obs. All you scouted at the front were some marines and 2 bunker, how could you be sure there is no cloak banshee coming?

I know from experience that 2 base cloaked banshee builds should have around 8 marines at the time I was at his front. Since he had a lot more, I knew he had multiple barracks. I poked again around 9 minutes to kill a marine and saw a marauder behind his bunkers. Also he beat me the 2 games before with the same MMM push so I was pretty sure he'd do it again.

-stOpSKY-

Canada498 Posts

February 19 2012 13:17 GMT

#36

On February 19 2012 21:30 iamke55 wrote:

Show nested quote +

Thanks for fast answer makes sense. So poking at his front and seeing less marines you would throw down the robo before the additional gateways and get obs? And do you not feel as though getting the robo just for obs in general is worth it?

iamke55

United States2806 Posts

February 19 2012 13:25 GMT

#37

On February 19 2012 22:17 -stOpSKY- wrote:

Show nested quote +

On February 19 2012 21:30 iamke55 wrote:

On February 19 2012 19:14 Skyro wrote:

On February 17 2012 03:12 iamke55 wrote:

On February 17 2012 01:42 Arcanefrost wrote:
What's the advantage of this over parting style triple nexus into 8gate pressure? I feel like parting's build is slightly better.

On February 19 2012 20:01 -stOpSKY- wrote:

In that rep you didnt get any obs. All you scouted at the front were some marines and 2 bunker, how could you be sure there is no cloak banshee coming?

Yeah you choose between a robo or a twilight council when you see what the Terran has at that point. Observers are pointless here against standard builds because blink stalkers can attack the Terran's army whenever you want, so you'll always be able to keep track of where the medivacs are. Back when I build the twilight council after my third nexus I would always have trouble with Terrans who faked a frontal attack but actually loaded up medivacs to hit my main, but this is no longer a problem with the faster blink.

Skyro

United States1823 Posts

February 20 2012 11:19 GMT

#38

On February 19 2012 21:30 iamke55 wrote:

Show nested quote +

What I'm saying is that you use a 7:30 poke to ascertain if cloak banshees are a possibility, but there's nothing stopping Parting from doing the same poke (albeit with less units) to get the same information.

As for a 2-base marine/scv push I'm guessing this is just a reactionary response to seeing a fast 3rd from you?

And I usually make 3 or 4 sentries. I can make more but I feel that is more than enough to stop any 2-base medivac timing. How many do you feel you need?

My preference also is to go for charge first and use HT to manage drops. Usually drop twilight ~8 so charge is done ~10:30 when most medivac + stim timings would hit. The difference seems nuanced, as basically you delay the expo for an extra gate for added pressure.

edit: Is that the only replay you have of Oz (or some other pro) doing this build?

JOJOsc2news

3000 Posts

February 20 2012 11:40 GMT

#39

On February 15 2012 16:21 ccJroy wrote:
Interesting. Will try it out. Can't figure out a good "Standard" build vs gasless FE.

Watch Day[9] Daily 420 - Naniwa's PvT Opening
It's literally amazing against gasless FE and allows you to get up an early third base. If you don't mess up you'll be ahead from the moment you scout the gasless FE.

KookyMonster

United States311 Posts

February 20 2012 18:28 GMT

#40

It looks awesome, definitely requires pretty good game sense and timing, but when perfected should have a very very very high win rate.

da_head

Canada3350 Posts

February 21 2012 00:51 GMT

#41

On February 20 2012 20:40 JOJOsc2news wrote:

Show nested quote +

hmm interesting. what does the OP think of naniwa's build vs his own?

iamke55

United States2806 Posts

February 21 2012 03:54 GMT

#42

On February 21 2012 09:51 da_head wrote:

Show nested quote +

hmm interesting. what does the OP think of naniwa's build vs his own?

If I felt safe opening with pure sentries, I would do it. It would make the gateway pressure more flexible and far more likely to do damage. However, there are too many things I don't understand about his build.
How do you hold off marine/SCV cheese without stalkers?
How do you scout Terran's opening without the zealot/stalker/probe poke?
How do you deal with an ebay block at the natural without an early zealot?
How does pure sentry deal with fast marauders off of either 1 or 2 rax?
How can you beat a 1/1/1 with such a late robo?

I've watched Naniwa play his build on his stream and remember him losing to 1 base builds almost every time.

da_head

Canada3350 Posts

February 21 2012 04:07 GMT

#43

On February 21 2012 12:54 iamke55 wrote:

Show nested quote +

alright. thanks for the response

ROOTheognis

United States4482 Posts

February 21 2012 04:16 GMT

#44

wat are some weaknesses to this build?

Nyast

Belgium554 Posts

February 25 2012 23:39 GMT

#45

Removed reply, confused the build with another one

kcdc

United States2311 Posts

February 26 2012 04:29 GMT

#46

Dunno how I missed this thread. Good guide--I'll definitely play around with the transitions.

I've got a similar opening off of 1 gate FE into 3 gate pressure which hits 12 gateway units and 36 probes at 7:20. That's 12 food ahead of where Oz was at the same, but since Oz lost a zealot and a probe, the build order difference is effectively 9 food. Either way, it's a pretty substantial difference, so I think there's room for some optimization in the opening.

phyren

United States1067 Posts

February 26 2012 05:04 GMT

#47

Been playing around with this to some success. Mostly making this post so I don't lose this thread again. While I'm at it, assuming things go as detailed, when would you feel comfortable attacking? Say you get your 3 or 4 bases; you're going to be able to max long before you get all techs, so how do try to trade effectively; or do you allow a turtling terran to max and try to win the big engagement?

LaM

United States1321 Posts

February 26 2012 05:28 GMT

#48

Woah thanks to the guy that bumped this (and obviously iamke for writing it!). Awesome build, skimming thru the reps before I try and steal some ladder points with it.

kcdc

United States2311 Posts

February 28 2012 18:23 GMT

#49

So I've played around with this strategy some, and I think it the fast third has some real downsides when compared to builds that get faster tech and/or upgrades instead.

Specifically, weapons-upgraded marines with medivac support shred through non-upgraded zealots even if P has a bigger army. I don't see any good way to defend a 6 medivac timing with +1 or +2 weapons consisting of pure marines and maybe a few ghosts for EMP. Even with charge and blink, I find that I can't even dent that kind of marine ball without an upgrade advantage (combined with guardian shield) or AoE damage.

This was the problem that pushed me toward grabbing a quick forge, teching storm quickly and taking a 10 minute third instead of an 8:30 third. With this tech-focused build, I don't have an opportunity to pressure, and my army is a little smaller due to the slower third, but a smaller army with the right tech and upgrades feels much less exploitable than a big army of non-upgraded gateway units.

Arcanefrost

Belgium1257 Posts

February 28 2012 21:10 GMT

#50

On February 29 2012 03:23 kcdc wrote:
So I've played around with this strategy some, and I think it the fast third has some real downsides when compared to builds that get faster tech and/or upgrades instead.

Specifically, weapons-upgraded marines with medivac support shred through non-upgraded zealots even if P has a bigger army. I don't see any good way to defend a 6 medivac timing with +1 or +2 weapons consisting of pure marines and maybe a few ghosts for EMP. Even with charge and blink, I find that I can't even dent that kind of marine ball without an upgrade advantage (combined with guardian shield) or AoE damage.

This was the problem that pushed me toward grabbing a quick forge, teching storm quickly and taking a 10 minute third instead of an 8:30 third. With this tech-focused build, I don't have an opportunity to pressure, and my army is a little smaller due to the slower third, but a smaller army with the right tech and upgrades feels much less exploitable than a big army of non-upgraded gateway units.

You need archons to deal with medivac pushes like that. I go 1gate fe->2 more gates->nexus->fake pressure -> tc and 2 gates -> 3 gates and ht archives -> charge and double forge -> chargelot archon.

I dont really like attacking with those early units, i feel like if the terran is prepared youre too behind to stop any allin.

Skyro

United States1823 Posts

February 29 2012 00:38 GMT

#51

I don't follow the OP's thread exactly (I get 5 Stalkers out for map control and grab my 3rd at 7:20) but as Arcanefrost said chargelot/archon is the way to go. If they wait for medivacs and +1 to finish your storm should be finished. If they try to do an early push with their first 2 medivacs w/o upgrades then morph your HT into archons when you see him pushing out while also leaving 1 HT at each spot he might drop you to feedback the medivacs. It also helps to place pylons in key locations so that you can use a round of zealot warp-ins to help surround his bio ball. Also lastly you should be throwing down double forges ~10-11 mins so you don't get too behind on upgrades.

amateurToss

United States6 Posts

February 29 2012 04:57 GMT

#52

I believe that this is the build that Hero used against qxc at IEM Kiev although he only used 3 gates initially.

kcdc

United States2311 Posts

February 29 2012 05:54 GMT

#53

On February 29 2012 09:38 Skyro wrote:

Show nested quote +

T can do a +1 medivac timing at 10 minutes. My 2-base storm build with a twilight council at ~7:10 just barely squeaks out storm in time to deal with it. This 3-base build won't have storm in time, and for early timings, I doubt it will have the gas for stalkers, blink, charge and archons in time. And of course, getting archons further delays upgrades and storm tech, which makes it harder to defend a slightly later push with +2 and a few ghosts. I'm just not sold that it's worth delaying tech and upgrades for a faster third.

Fencar

United States2694 Posts

February 29 2012 06:41 GMT

#54

On February 18 2012 21:14 Micket wrote:
Why are Protoss players such good teachers? I need Terran guides that aren't 'how to mech vs Protoss', 'Thor Raven vs Zerg', 'Battlecruiser Rush' or stuff like that. Where is the 'MVP's reactor hellion triple orbital vs Zerg' guide? It is such a common build in GSL atm and reading TL makes me think it doesn't exist.

This is the sort of build that crushes me in TvP. I can't tell between a gateway all in and pressure. Should I scan nat gasses to see whether there is a tech transition?

There are a few good fairly recent builds from Day9 that are pretty macro-heavy in TvZ, TvP, and TvT.

They're not all from the 'terran week' a few months ago, but the Terran Week TvZ daily has a reactor hellion>3base orbital build.

There's also Thorzain's TvT build there, which I use exclusively, a daily about Mech, which sucks, and one about Kas' TvP triple orbital build which is mentioned in this thread, and I used to use, but stopped and switched to the 2-rax from a daily about MKP's 2-rax because I realized my Micro and Multitasking need a ton of work.
'
Basically Day9 recently did a whole bunch of dailies on TvX, especially TvP, so no one's really posting anything on TL. >.>

Skyro

United States1823 Posts

February 29 2012 07:21 GMT

#55

On February 29 2012 14:54 kcdc wrote:

Show nested quote +

I'm not exactly sure what timing you are asking about as you mention a 6 medivac w/ +1 or +2 timing in your earlier post, then refer to a 2 medivac timing here. You won't have storm for a 2 medivac timing but you should have charge and your archives done to get 1 warp-in of HT.

Although from your post it seems you are coming from a standpoint that you aren't questioning if these timings can be held but rather you don't believe the faster 3rd is worth the slower upgrades, however that depends a lot to the timing of your 3rd. If you follow OP's build and get the 3rd @9ish min then of course it would be comparatively harder to hold a 10 or 11 min timing as the 3rd has not paid for itself yet, which is one of the reasons why I do not follow the OP's build exactly and get my 3rd @ 7:20ish. You can get an even earlier 3rd like how the koreans are doing it but IMO that only really works on large maps (which there are many in the GSL map pool) and not on many of the ladder maps since a 4/5 naked-rax marine push would be pretty hard to hold on smaller maps. This is why I make the 5 early stalkers for map control and the ability to deter any early marine/scv shenanigans.

Arcanefrost

Belgium1257 Posts

February 29 2012 12:22 GMT

#56

On February 29 2012 14:54 kcdc wrote:
T can do a +1 medivac timing at 10 minutes. My 2-base storm build with a twilight council at ~7:10 just barely squeaks out storm in time to deal with it. This 3-base build won't have storm in time, and for early timings, I doubt it will have the gas for stalkers, blink, charge and archons in time. And of course, getting archons further delays upgrades and storm tech, which makes it harder to defend a slightly later push with +2 and a few ghosts. I'm just not sold that it's worth delaying tech and upgrades for a faster third.

You need to morph your ht into archons if he decides to push this fast. Fast third definetely has some flaws but on big maps I think it's the best build.

kcdc

United States2311 Posts

February 29 2012 16:03 GMT

#57

The game vs LagTTFaith shows a timing push that I don't think this build can reliably hold on most maps. It hits at 10:50 with 2 medivacs (2 more rallying), a bunch of marines, and +1 weapons. Charge was half way done and the templar archives hasn't been started.

In this game on Cloud Kingdom, Lagrangian holds the push because Faith took the narrow attack path close to the natural and wound up pinned against the terrain with no space to micro. But imagine that the push had instead come up the wide ramp at the third, stimmed up, and dodged forcefields while microing back and forth along the top path towards the corner expansion. With good micro, T will avoid getting a big chunk of his army forcefielded and will steadily kite down the slow zealots.

The problem with delayed upgrades would have shown up in the 2nd big fight had T's first attack not gone so poorly. P does a +1/+1 timing with a huge food advantage. T trades efficiently at first, but winds up being overwhelmed. But imagine that T had +2/+2 at this timing (very possible since Faith let his macro slip a bit and delayed his +2/+2) and had just left himself a retreat path on his 11 minute timing so that he had saved some of those forces. T would have been doing a +2/+2 timing with a nearly maxed force with a couple of ghosts, and I don't see how a maxed zealot-archon force at +1/+1 could have put even a substantial dent in that army.

I don't think this is a bad strategy--obviously it can work a good % of the time. I'm just not sold that the earlier 3rd is worth what you give up to get it. You sacrificie your most efficient tools (storm/colossi) against a push that every T is going to do (the 10:30 medivac timing), and while you might get around that problem with positioning or delay tactics sometimes, it's going to bite you in the ass frequently enough. Moreover, you're going to be down on upgrades through the whole midgame, and unless you score a big win on defense, you're not going to be able to prevent T from getting the type of bioball that will tear through zealot-archon.

Yaki

France4234 Posts

February 29 2012 16:08 GMT

#58

Thanks seems like a really solid build

Noocta

France12578 Posts

February 29 2012 16:13 GMT

#59

Nice guide.
As Terran, i sometimes wonder if going gas less FE is worth it since it open you to so many timings from protoss now. :s

RaiD.RaynoR

United States294 Posts

February 29 2012 16:29 GMT

#60

Read this word for word and I am thoroughly impressed! Very informative and describes counters effectively.

TheEmulator

28084 Posts

March 01 2012 03:58 GMT

#61

Hey dude thanks so much. I am a mid master t that just switched to p and I have been having trouble in pvt. The last 3 games ive played against master t's who have fe'd the initial 4 gate pressure has outright won each time

Budmandude

United States123 Posts

March 01 2012 06:44 GMT

#62

I've been mourning PvT lately when it comes to playing against the gasless FE. I've only gotten a chance to play this build a couple of times but I like it a lot. I also think it's a really good way to force yourself to improve your mechanics and your multitask

.

Now, the only real reservations I've had are the upgrade timings (which I've seen mentioned a few times in this thread). So what you've been doing is going citadel -> blink then add 2 gates, warpin, add 2 more gates to 8. What I tried instead of adding 2 gates after starting blink was adding a gate and a forge and just taking a 3rd gas a little bit sooner. This way the +1 armor finishes around the same time charge does, just in time for the Terran push at ~10 minutes with no chrono necessary. Tradeoff is I'm on 7 gates now, but if I've been macroing perfectly I'll probably have to cut a couple warpins on 8 gates to afford the 3rd nexus anyway and can just add on more later after I've held the medivac timing and am in full tech-up mode. I think the +1 armor is better than the 2 or 3 zealots I might be missing from the gateway. The major tradeoff I can see here is that 100 gas could have been stalkers to make my kiting stronger, but I'm mitigating that gas loss with the slightly faster 3rd gas.

If anyone has any thoughts on why this might not be a good idea please post!

amateurToss

United States6 Posts

March 01 2012 13:11 GMT

#63

I think kcdc's concerns are paramount here. The whole crux of the build seems to come down to whether you can hold the 10:30 push from Terran with nothing but vanilla gateway units. Does anyone have any experience with any pvt styles that rely on these kinds of gateway units against mmm? I'm curious if there's anything to it aside from, "Try to engage Terrans in chokes and get off good forcefields."

One tactic I noticed is Oz and Hero using pylons and probes for spotters in the bases surrounding Terran. This becomes more important because you don't have observers to spot drops.

Skyro

United States1823 Posts

March 01 2012 18:06 GMT

#64

On March 01 2012 22:11 amateurToss wrote:
I think kcdc's concerns are paramount here. The whole crux of the build seems to come down to whether you can hold the 10:30 push from Terran with nothing but vanilla gateway units. Does anyone have any experience with any pvt styles that rely on these kinds of gateway units against mmm? I'm curious if there's anything to it aside from, "Try to engage Terrans in chokes and get off good forcefields."

One tactic I noticed is Oz and Hero using pylons and probes for spotters in the bases surrounding Terran. This becomes more important because you don't have observers to spot drops.

The whole crux of any macro PvT build is holding the medivac timing, not just this build. And AFAIK kcdc is just stating he doesn't feel the trade-off of earlier 3rd for later upgrades is worth it, not that the medivac timing cannot be held. If the medivac timing couldn't be held then the build would not be viable simply because nearly every terran you face will be doing this push in some form or another. The 10:30 push can be held with chargelots and a few archons. No FFs/chokes necessary but obviously will make things more cost efficient for you.

amateurToss

United States6 Posts

March 01 2012 20:02 GMT

#65

On March 01 2012 22:11 amateurToss wrote:

Show nested quote +

One tactic I noticed is Oz and Hero using pylons and probes for spotters in the bases surrounding Terran. This becomes more important because you don't have observers to spot drops.

The whole crux of any macro PvT build is holding the medivac timing, not just this build. And AFAIK kcdc is just stating he doesn't feel the trade-off of earlier 3rd for later upgrades is worth it, not that the medivac timing cannot be held. If the medivac timing couldn't be held then the build would not be viable simply because nearly every terran you face will be doing this push in some form or another. The 10:30 push can be held with chargelots and a few archons. No FFs/chokes necessary but obviously will make things more cost efficient for you.

Thanks for clarifying that. What I thought he was saying is that, in general, the build relies on really good engagement with the medivac push like in the cloud kingdom game. I'm very curious what kinds of variations people can come up with for the midgame of this build such as large stalker counts or double twilight for quick charge.

Skyro

United States1823 Posts

March 01 2012 20:22 GMT

#66

On March 02 2012 05:02 amateurToss wrote:

Show nested quote +

To clarify, any build that has does not have charge or some form of AoE does in fact rely on good engagements (i.e. good FFs), and OP's build goes for blink first and thus, yes he does rely on good engagements (this is no different from the double forge build which also gets blink first). I'm coming more from the standpoint of the "idea" of a fast 3rd vs a gasless 1-rax FE is completely viable and IMO worth the delayed upgrades and am not necessarily commenting specifically on OP's variation, which I personally do not follow. What I was pointing out was that the 10:30 medivac timing can be held with chargelots/archons and does not rely on "good engagements," but depending on how you handle the engagement it may or may not be as cost-efficient as you'd like (which was another reason kcdc brought up for not liking the OP's build).

kcdc

United States2311 Posts

March 01 2012 20:38 GMT

#67

On March 02 2012 03:06 Skyro wrote:

Show nested quote +

The build in the OP starts the twilight council at ~8 minutes and researches blink before charge. With perfectly chained chronoboost, the fastest charge can finish off of an 8:00 twilight council with blink first is 11:57. The build also doesn't have a templar archives started by 10:30.

So the question is whether this fast third build can defend a 10:30 timing efficiently enough to benefit from the fast third.

For a reference point, I'll compare the OP's build to my favorite PvT build (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=308519) which achieves a similar mid-game with charge, templar and lots of economy. The two builds get most of the same tech and upgrades, but the order in which they get that tech is different, particularly as it relates to the 10:30 medivac timing.

The OP's build gets twilight -> 3rd base (starts at 8 minutes) -> blink -> charge (finishes at 12 minutes) -> templar archives -> double forge upgrades.

My build gets single forge -> twilight -> templar archives -> start charge and storm (both finish at 10:30) -> 3rd base (starts at 10 minutes)

So the OP's build gets a third base 2 minutes earlier, but has to defend the 10:30 timing with blink stalkers, slow zealots, and a few sentries whereas my build will have a slower third, but charge, storm and +1/+1 done in time for the 10:30 timing. How much value to you get out of a 2 minute earlier third base? With maximum saturation, that'd be about 1600 minerals, but the early third can't fully saturate all 3 bases right away. Let's call it a 1000 mineral difference: 10 zealots.

Will a force of 0/0 blink stalkers, sentries and slow zealots take 1000+ minerals of damage against a well-executed medivac timing that a +1/+1 force of chargelots, templar and sentries wouldn't take?

I think the answer to that question on a lot of maps will turn out to be yes. The only tool the OP's build has to deal with 10:30 stim kiting with medivacs is a bank of forcefields, and I think we all know that while forcefields are great, they have limited utility in that situation. It basically comes down to whether you can land perfect forcefields before T kites down your wall of zealots. If the map is Entombed Valley, you probably can. It it's Metalopolis, good luck.

Josh_rakoons

United Kingdom1158 Posts

March 01 2012 20:55 GMT

#68

On February 17 2012 00:33 CryMore wrote:
When do you get your gases at your natural and third? I assume you are getting the natural gases after you start your third nexus, and the third ones immediately?

Whenever you're taking a third base you will always need to take those gases immediately, if you dont then you're going to be incredibly mineral heavy.

Trusty

New Zealand520 Posts

March 01 2012 21:14 GMT

#69

I love working with blink.

I had never bothered to learn or practice the 4gate blink/obs all-in for PvT, until recently. I really enjoyed turning the tables on T with multi prong harass etc (although it's pretty heavy all in).

Now I read this build, It's really exciting. I wonder if it's possible to add fast robo, to get a WP to help delay medivac timing with blink harass or zealot drop~

EDIT:

Also, a question:
When you are delaying/harass with small amount of blink stalkers, against bio that has conc + stim - what are your decisions regarding blink.

Do you blink as a ball, which is the least 'effeceint' (in terms of wasted blinks), but maybe the safest - since you have less amount of stalkers getting conc'd.

Or do you blink 1by1, which is more effeceint on blink usage, but maybe unsafer - since you have more stalkers getting hit by conc.

I've noticed different people to different things, and sometimes a combo of both (blink 1 or 2 hurt stalkers, then just blink the rest of them at once).

Tortious_Tortoise

United States944 Posts

March 01 2012 21:32 GMT

#70

In what capacity would a Protoss respond to a 2 base biomech play? Jinro's done this kind of marine/tank/banshee 2-base push (I think it hits ~10 minutes but that's a shot in the dark) and it's worked incredibly well against Protoss (I specifically remember him killing Puzzle with it).

kcdc

United States2311 Posts

March 01 2012 21:41 GMT

#71

On March 02 2012 06:32 mbr2321 wrote:
In what capacity would a Protoss respond to a 2 base biomech play? Jinro's done this kind of marine/tank/banshee 2-base push (I think it hits ~10 minutes but that's a shot in the dark) and it's worked incredibly well against Protoss (I specifically remember him killing Puzzle with it).

#1: I don't think you'd wind up taking the fast third with this strategy as upon seeing no marauders, you'd have to worry about 2-base cloaked banshees, and you'd get a robo.

#2: If you did take the fast third anyway, I think you'd be okay against a 2-base marine tank push. You'd definitely be able to pick off some units with your blink stalkers as the Terran army crosses the map, and on a lot of maps, you could double a group of stalkers back to pick off reinforcements. I doubt it'd be an easy defense, but with 8 gates and the mobility that blink gives you, you're in better position against this Terran push than you would be if you went, for example, double forge colossus.

Skyro

United States1823 Posts

March 01 2012 21:49 GMT

#72

On March 02 2012 05:38 kcdc wrote:

Show nested quote +

I don't disagree with anything you say here, although I believe the OP does state to go for charge first if you don't "come out ahead" from his mid-game pushes. The OP's build is centered around pressure to weaken the terran's eventual push which is what he believes allows him to get away with getting blink first, although this is where it gets hazy in terms of how much damage needs to be done, etc. but I more or less agree with you. I was merely pointing out you can easily go for a more passive/defensive fast 3rd style and get your 3rd @ 7:20 which will increase your eco advantage when any timing hits, and still should be able to defend any pushes with chargelot/archon. I use this style because it is quite a bit easier to execute , but the OP's guide was quite helpful in terms of the information gained from the pokes at the terran's front. I also particularly like the 7:20 3rd b/c it lines up perfectly for when you would throw down your extra gates for a 6/7 gate, so you can very easily mix this opening up for a tournament series or whatever.

kcdc

United States2311 Posts

March 01 2012 22:07 GMT

#73

On March 02 2012 06:49 Skyro wrote:

Show nested quote +

On March 02 2012 05:38 kcdc wrote:

On March 02 2012 03:06 Skyro wrote:

That sounds pretty similar to the idea I was theorycrafting today where I'd basically do my 2-base templar build with a quick forge, except I'd cut the forge, get a quick third instead, and then go double forge on 3 bases. I know you can get charge, storm, a forge and +1/+1 by 10:30, and the forge and +1/+1 costs 350/200, so you should be able to delay the third gas and the upgrades and get a ~7:30 third base instead. +1/+1 would be much later, but with 2 forges, I bet you'd hit +3/+3 at about the same time.

Skyro

United States1823 Posts

March 01 2012 23:07 GMT

#74

On March 02 2012 07:07 kcdc wrote:

Show nested quote +

On March 02 2012 06:49 Skyro wrote:

On March 02 2012 05:38 kcdc wrote:

On March 02 2012 03:06 Skyro wrote:

Yes there are quite a few variations and I am not quite sure what is optimal/safe just yet. I started out initially throwing down 2 additional gates (for a total of 5) after my 3rd nexus in case of marine-tank pushes and perhaps apply a little pressure, then adding 3 gates ~9mins to help defend the medivac push. 8 gate chargelot/archon + 3 base economy can most definitely smash through early medivac timings. Obviously you can go for double forge instead of the 2 gates after your 3rd nexus and have +1/+1 done by the time medivacs hit but I don't think you can hold a marine-tank push w/ just 3 gates.

kcdc

United States2311 Posts

March 02 2012 00:39 GMT

#75

I think this will prove to be reasonably safe vs gasless FE. It's going to look pretty thin, but the BO can get a 6:20 third with charge and storm by 10:20. I wound up losing the game because it was my first time trying it out, but you can see that the build gave me a big advantage that I threw away like a boss.

http://drop.sc/124673

Skyro

United States1823 Posts

March 02 2012 02:37 GMT

#76

On March 02 2012 09:39 kcdc wrote:
I think this will prove to be reasonably safe vs gasless FE. It's going to look pretty thin, but the BO can get a 6:20 third with charge and storm by 10:20. I wound up losing the game because it was my first time trying it out, but you can see that the build gave me a big advantage that I threw away like a boss.

http://drop.sc/124673

I dunno it seems from that replay you get way too much infrastructure too fast. You're getting double upgrades and fast teching to templar and just a couple (I think it was 2?) gates. I think a naked 4-rax or a marine-tank would just smash right through you (and you gotta station at least 1 stalker outside his ramp to detect these pushes coming). Nor did you poke his front throughout to check his comp.

Also IMO it's not worth teching up that fast to templar and you don't need storm to fend off medivac timings. That first engagement you just didn't have enough of an actual army. What's the point of upgrades if you don't have the army to benefit from it? If you really want to incorporate early upgrades I would first go single forge for +1 armor initially.

BlinkGosu

United States46 Posts

March 02 2012 03:48 GMT

#77

You can Skip charge entirely if you just cut your zealout count and make more stalkers with a couple (constant chrono needed on these if you are gonna make 2) immortals mixed in from your robo. You just FF their bio ball in half or a third and have barely enough zealouts to tank while the majority of your dps is the stalker/immortal ball. You won't ever be able to directly engage their full army untill you have the archons for tank and storms for dps though.

kcdc

United States2311 Posts

March 02 2012 05:47 GMT

#78

On March 02 2012 11:37 Skyro wrote:

Show nested quote +

Going to disagree--I can't recall how active I was with my stalker that game, but I do generally scout the front with it. I'm pretty sure I did, but if I didn't, it was an oversight.

As for the number of units, I defend 4 naked rax off of 2 gate zealot with 3 sentries all the time. It's pretty crazy how greedy you can get away with being.

Lastly, I didn't feel short on units at all for his push--I just screwed up the control.

I'm not really sure whether it's better to get the 6:20 third or to get earlier upgrades. Upgrades are really really good PvT....

Skyro

United States1823 Posts

March 02 2012 06:58 GMT

#79

On March 02 2012 14:47 kcdc wrote:

Show nested quote +

Hm we probably deal with naked 4-rax a lot differently. I post early stalkers outside his base and continually poke his front and kite naked 4-rax marines across the map if he pushes out. You sort of had 1 stalker in b/w your bases. So you actually just power through naked 4-rax with zealot/sentry off of 2-gates? Interesting. How about marine-tank though? Usually that hits around 8:30 and at that point you are still sitting on 2 active gates. Do you somehow sniff this coming beforehand and are able to deviate?

I take back what I said about the upgrades. For some reason I thought you got them earlier than you did, but I rewatched the replay and that was a good timing for them. In that particular replay you could have probably held with better control yes, but in my experiences it does seems easier to hold any pre-12 minute pushes with just chargelot/archon backed with more gates than rushing storm like that. Personally I think you would've just smashed that initial army posturing outside your base if you flanked his army from 2 sides with chargelot/archon IMO.

And as for regards to an early 3rd vs. faster upgrades I definitely prefer the faster 3rd since to me it isn't soft countered by terran going for a fast 3rd. I feel PvT late game really favors Protoss as well.

kcdc

United States2311 Posts

March 02 2012 07:14 GMT

#80

On March 02 2012 15:58 Skyro wrote:

Show nested quote +

The reason I like to rush out storm for the medivac timing has less to do with defending a frontal push (for which feedback -> archon works fine) and more to do with how efficiently storms deal with drops. To deal with drops, I feel like you either need a squad of blink stalkers or storm,, and if you have time for storm, it actually costs less and works much better. IMO, a build that gets storm out by 10:20 can skip the stalkers, and as a stalker-hater, that seems like a big win to me.

It's a style difference tho. I try to cut stalkers out of any build that I can cut them out, but a lot of people seem to like stalkers just fine.

Skyro

United States1823 Posts

March 02 2012 19:53 GMT

#81

On March 02 2012 16:14 kcdc wrote:

Show nested quote +

On March 02 2012 15:58 Skyro wrote:

On March 02 2012 14:47 kcdc wrote:

On March 02 2012 11:37 Skyro wrote:

LOL stalker-hater that's a new one. Personally I don't find you need blink or storm to deal with early drops when they only have a few medivacs by utilizing a combination of stalkers + feedback + zealot warp-ins + a few cannons. You need to get stalkers and blink eventually when you transition into colossi anyway.

monk

United States8476 Posts

March 06 2012 06:40 GMT

#82

Crank just did something similar to this vs Thorzain.

Balgrog

United States1221 Posts

March 06 2012 07:05 GMT

#83

Yet again another REALLY well made guide, can't wait to use this on ladder!

FuGGu

United States176 Posts

March 06 2012 14:57 GMT

#84

I've seen HuK use this build alot. Are colossus transitions following the initially rush viable?

kcdc

United States2311 Posts

March 06 2012 17:33 GMT

#85

On March 06 2012 23:57 FuGGu wrote:
I've seen HuK use this build alot. Are colossus transitions following the initially rush viable?

You can get colossi, but I don't think it'd be a good idea to get them quickly after the third base. You can't defend 3 bases against drops without blink or storm, so if you're going fast third into colossus, you're going to need to go fast third -> blink -> colossus.

The defense with blink against the 2-medivac timing is already very thin and it relies on charge, so you're limited to builds that go fast third -> blink -> charge. And then at that point, you're desperate for upgrades and you still don't have a robo. Templar archives -> double forge seems like the natural transition.

For most maps, if you wanted to get colossi before templar, you'd have to rework the build pretty significantly I think.

On some maps like Entombed Valley, you could probably take a quick third straight into colossi by skipping the twilight tech. Entombed Valley is unique in the ladder map pool in that you can defend 3 bases against drops without twilight tech by strategically placing ~6 cannons. 6 cannons might sound expensive, but it's a good deal to limit drop damage all game. Consider that it's cheaper (and more effective) than leaving 5 stalkers in your main.

xTrim

472 Posts

March 06 2012 20:50 GMT

#86

I am a master terran player, haven't really run into this build on ladder, but I'd like to know what exactly do you fear when doing this...

It seems like an "unbeatable" strategy, flawless etc etc

How about your losses? I am a big fan of the 3rd cc in maps with good chokes for the natural. How should I be playing it?

taitanik

Latvia231 Posts

March 06 2012 20:56 GMT

#87

i guess ill go fe into banshees 3-1-1 to pusnish this

iamke55

United States2806 Posts

March 07 2012 04:03 GMT

#88

I lost to lizzuma building 6 rax on 1 base. He thought I would build a robo upon running past his bunker and seeing no command center. It turned out I forgot to bring a probe to run past the bunker and built a robo anyways to blind counter the triple OC build he did in the previous game, so I died to the mass marines/scvs. Even if I had played properly and ran past his bunker though, I still would've made a robo. Anyone know what to do here?

Oreo7

United States1647 Posts

March 07 2012 04:04 GMT

#89

Why twilight and not robo? Can you not hold the midgame with a gateway/immortal comp going to collosi?

edit: concern is drops? Is it just impossible or much hard to hold w/gateway/immortal?

iamke55

United States2806 Posts

March 07 2012 04:14 GMT

#90

On March 07 2012 13:04 Oreo7 wrote:
Why twilight and not robo? Can you not hold the midgame with a gateway/immortal comp going to collosi?

edit: concern is drops? Is it just impossible or much hard to hold w/gateway/immortal?

I tried robo before and it didn't work. Not only are drops a huge problem on maps other than Entombed Valley, when you play with so many gateway units the twilight council improves your army strength way more. I've had games where I forced 3 bunkers and scvs pulled, made no significant mistakes, and died to straight up mass units/medivacs off of 2 bases when trying to go robo. Blink lets me get free kills and slows down the push, while charge improves the army strength a ton. It's already hard enough to hold 5 rax/medivacs with the twilight council build. With no charge or blink, and resources used up on an immortal or colossus that's in production, it can't be done.

kcdc

United States2311 Posts

March 07 2012 04:47 GMT

#91

On March 07 2012 13:03 iamke55 wrote:
I lost to lizzuma building 6 rax on 1 base. He thought I would build a robo upon running past his bunker and seeing no command center. It turned out I forgot to bring a probe to run past the bunker and built a robo anyways to blind counter the triple OC build he did in the previous game, so I died to the mass marines/scvs. Even if I had played properly and ran past his bunker though, I still would've made a robo. Anyone know what to do here?

Got a rep?

6 rax on 1 base is all-in. It might be a situation where you have to sac your expo, forcefield your ramp and go 1-base colossus. It's tough to imagine T holding when you're getting support bay at the same time they're getting gas.

iamke55

United States2806 Posts

March 07 2012 04:49 GMT

#92

On March 07 2012 13:47 kcdc wrote:

Show nested quote +

Oh now I remember. I built my support bay on the low ground. Is that really all that needs to be fixed in the build order?

kcdc

United States2311 Posts

March 07 2012 14:58 GMT

#93

On March 07 2012 13:49 iamke55 wrote:

Show nested quote +

Oh now I remember. I built my support bay on the low ground. Is that really all that needs to be fixed in the build order?

Can't tell w/o a rep. As long as the build has a quick robo and enough sentries to forcefield the ramp, it seems like you should be able to counterattack with colossi and win just about every time. On Shakuras, it might even be possible to hold your natural.

ant885

United States52 Posts

March 08 2012 03:03 GMT

#94

cool build, having good success but takes me time to get used to no midgame observers x.x

curious if you (or someone high level) has played around with the 7gate response to a 4racks?

iamke55

United States2806 Posts

March 10 2012 15:09 GMT

#95

Found another replay, MC vs Puma
http://www.esl-world.net/masters/season6/hanover/sc2/playoffs/download/26117246/

I noticed Koreans are playing it a little more gas heavy than I am, often making 6 sentries instead of 4. This is probably the stronger option for pressure, as you have more force fields to work with, you need them later anyways since you don't aim for colossi, and the Terran player is more likely to think you're going all-in. Also, they have cut their gateway count down to 3 at first to get the nexus up faster and make it less readable to a scan.

On another note, I imagine this style having a tough time against the 2 base ghost/medivac style used recently by Jjakji and fOrGG. I haven't actually played against it though yet since the foreigner metagame mainly consists of builds focusing on econ/upgrades rather than faster ghost tech.

CaptainHaz

United States240 Posts

March 27 2012 12:08 GMT

#96

Hero just tried this vs Maru in the second winners match of GSL. He got completely shut down but I think that had a lot to do with Maru actually getting away with a triple orbital into double engineering bay build vs the 4 gate push. Also the medivac count eventually steamrolled out of control and the ghosts just made the army of Maru so damn efficient.

Mamoru

Spain24 Posts

March 27 2012 12:56 GMT

#97

On March 27 2012 21:08 CaptainHaz wrote:
Hero just tried this vs Maru in the second winners match of GSL. He got completely shut down but I think that had a lot to do with Maru actually getting away with a triple orbital into double engineering bay build vs the 4 gate push. Also the medivac count eventually steamrolled out of control and the ghosts just made the army of Maru so damn efficient.

yeah just do it this bo, but maru smartly do a scan in third of hero when was building so he took fast 3d... balancing a little the advantage economic of hero

Teoita

Italy12246 Posts

March 27 2012 17:15 GMT

#98

Hero completely screwed up his 4gate pressure though, and it kinda snowballed from there: it forced him to get charge rather than blink to defend the medivac timing, which meant he took more damage than you normally would from drops, and he wasn't able to be active on the map with zealot/archon after taking his third like you would normally want.

oriwarr

Sweden29 Posts

April 13 2012 17:26 GMT

#99

Here's a game with mc and taeja where mc does a version of this build. However he transitions into fast collosi instead of twilight council.

Trusty

New Zealand520 Posts

April 18 2012 21:51 GMT

#100

Has anyone noticed nani's 3gate timing poke, after 1gate FE in his recent code S matches?

It reminds me alot of what was described in here.

The problem is that in the cases he's done the build, he won outright vs 1/0 bunkers, or had to get a Robo because of suspected Banshee play (But it was a hidden CC by Ryung).

From memory Nani goes:

- 2 zealots -> sentry
nexus (before 30).
2nd Sentry, add 2 gates. Add 2nd gas.
Add stalker (should be able to get this out before WG is done).

Pokes with 2 sentry, 2 zealots + 3/4 stalkers. Has over 300 energy at the time of poke (saw 2GS, 3 FF's).

Normal

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