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On March 02 2012 16:14 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2012 15:58 Skyro wrote:On March 02 2012 14:47 kcdc wrote:On March 02 2012 11:37 Skyro wrote:On March 02 2012 09:39 kcdc wrote:I think this will prove to be reasonably safe vs gasless FE. It's going to look pretty thin, but the BO can get a 6:20 third with charge and storm by 10:20. I wound up losing the game because it was my first time trying it out, but you can see that the build gave me a big advantage that I threw away like a boss. http://drop.sc/124673 I dunno it seems from that replay you get way too much infrastructure too fast. You're getting double upgrades and fast teching to templar and just a couple (I think it was 2?) gates. I think a naked 4-rax or a marine-tank would just smash right through you (and you gotta station at least 1 stalker outside his ramp to detect these pushes coming). Nor did you poke his front throughout to check his comp. Also IMO it's not worth teching up that fast to templar and you don't need storm to fend off medivac timings. That first engagement you just didn't have enough of an actual army. What's the point of upgrades if you don't have the army to benefit from it? If you really want to incorporate early upgrades I would first go single forge for +1 armor initially. Going to disagree--I can't recall how active I was with my stalker that game, but I do generally scout the front with it. I'm pretty sure I did, but if I didn't, it was an oversight. As for the number of units, I defend 4 naked rax off of 2 gate zealot with 3 sentries all the time. It's pretty crazy how greedy you can get away with being. Lastly, I didn't feel short on units at all for his push--I just screwed up the control. I'm not really sure whether it's better to get the 6:20 third or to get earlier upgrades. Upgrades are really really good PvT.... Hm we probably deal with naked 4-rax a lot differently. I post early stalkers outside his base and continually poke his front and kite naked 4-rax marines across the map if he pushes out. You sort of had 1 stalker in b/w your bases. So you actually just power through naked 4-rax with zealot/sentry off of 2-gates? Interesting. How about marine-tank though? Usually that hits around 8:30 and at that point you are still sitting on 2 active gates. Do you somehow sniff this coming beforehand and are able to deviate? I take back what I said about the upgrades. For some reason I thought you got them earlier than you did, but I rewatched the replay and that was a good timing for them. In that particular replay you could have probably held with better control yes, but in my experiences it does seems easier to hold any pre-12 minute pushes with just chargelot/archon backed with more gates than rushing storm like that. Personally I think you would've just smashed that initial army posturing outside your base if you flanked his army from 2 sides with chargelot/archon IMO. And as for regards to an early 3rd vs. faster upgrades I definitely prefer the faster 3rd since to me it isn't soft countered by terran going for a fast 3rd. I feel PvT late game really favors Protoss as well. The reason I like to rush out storm for the medivac timing has less to do with defending a frontal push (for which feedback -> archon works fine) and more to do with how efficiently storms deal with drops. To deal with drops, I feel like you either need a squad of blink stalkers or storm,, and if you have time for storm, it actually costs less and works much better. IMO, a build that gets storm out by 10:20 can skip the stalkers, and as a stalker-hater, that seems like a big win to me. It's a style difference tho. I try to cut stalkers out of any build that I can cut them out, but a lot of people seem to like stalkers just fine.
LOL stalker-hater that's a new one. Personally I don't find you need blink or storm to deal with early drops when they only have a few medivacs by utilizing a combination of stalkers + feedback + zealot warp-ins + a few cannons. You need to get stalkers and blink eventually when you transition into colossi anyway.
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United States8477 Posts
Crank just did something similar to this vs Thorzain.
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Yet again another REALLY well made guide, can't wait to use this on ladder!
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I've seen HuK use this build alot. Are colossus transitions following the initially rush viable?
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On March 06 2012 23:57 FuGGu wrote:
I've seen HuK use this build alot. Are colossus transitions following the initially rush viable?
You can get colossi, but I don't think it'd be a good idea to get them quickly after the third base. You can't defend 3 bases against drops without blink or storm, so if you're going fast third into colossus, you're going to need to go fast third -> blink -> colossus.
The defense with blink against the 2-medivac timing is already very thin and it relies on charge, so you're limited to builds that go fast third -> blink -> charge. And then at that point, you're desperate for upgrades and you still don't have a robo. Templar archives -> double forge seems like the natural transition.
For most maps, if you wanted to get colossi before templar, you'd have to rework the build pretty significantly I think.
On some maps like Entombed Valley, you could probably take a quick third straight into colossi by skipping the twilight tech. Entombed Valley is unique in the ladder map pool in that you can defend 3 bases against drops without twilight tech by strategically placing ~6 cannons. 6 cannons might sound expensive, but it's a good deal to limit drop damage all game. Consider that it's cheaper (and more effective) than leaving 5 stalkers in your main.
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I am a master terran player, haven't really run into this build on ladder, but I'd like to know what exactly do you fear when doing this...
It seems like an "unbeatable" strategy, flawless etc etc
How about your losses? I am a big fan of the 3rd cc in maps with good chokes for the natural. How should I be playing it?
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i guess ill go fe into banshees 3-1-1 to pusnish this 
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I lost to lizzuma building 6 rax on 1 base. He thought I would build a robo upon running past his bunker and seeing no command center. It turned out I forgot to bring a probe to run past the bunker and built a robo anyways to blind counter the triple OC build he did in the previous game, so I died to the mass marines/scvs. Even if I had played properly and ran past his bunker though, I still would've made a robo. Anyone know what to do here?
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Why twilight and not robo? Can you not hold the midgame with a gateway/immortal comp going to collosi?
edit: concern is drops? Is it just impossible or much hard to hold w/gateway/immortal?
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On March 07 2012 13:04 Oreo7 wrote:
Why twilight and not robo? Can you not hold the midgame with a gateway/immortal comp going to collosi?
edit: concern is drops? Is it just impossible or much hard to hold w/gateway/immortal?
I tried robo before and it didn't work. Not only are drops a huge problem on maps other than Entombed Valley, when you play with so many gateway units the twilight council improves your army strength way more. I've had games where I forced 3 bunkers and scvs pulled, made no significant mistakes, and died to straight up mass units/medivacs off of 2 bases when trying to go robo. Blink lets me get free kills and slows down the push, while charge improves the army strength a ton. It's already hard enough to hold 5 rax/medivacs with the twilight council build. With no charge or blink, and resources used up on an immortal or colossus that's in production, it can't be done.
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On March 07 2012 13:03 iamke55 wrote:
I lost to lizzuma building 6 rax on 1 base. He thought I would build a robo upon running past his bunker and seeing no command center. It turned out I forgot to bring a probe to run past the bunker and built a robo anyways to blind counter the triple OC build he did in the previous game, so I died to the mass marines/scvs. Even if I had played properly and ran past his bunker though, I still would've made a robo. Anyone know what to do here?
Got a rep?
6 rax on 1 base is all-in. It might be a situation where you have to sac your expo, forcefield your ramp and go 1-base colossus. It's tough to imagine T holding when you're getting support bay at the same time they're getting gas.
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On March 07 2012 13:47 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2012 13:03 iamke55 wrote:
I lost to lizzuma building 6 rax on 1 base. He thought I would build a robo upon running past his bunker and seeing no command center. It turned out I forgot to bring a probe to run past the bunker and built a robo anyways to blind counter the triple OC build he did in the previous game, so I died to the mass marines/scvs. Even if I had played properly and ran past his bunker though, I still would've made a robo. Anyone know what to do here? Got a rep? 6 rax on 1 base is all-in. It might be a situation where you have to sac your expo, forcefield your ramp and go 1-base colossus. It's tough to imagine T holding when you're getting support bay at the same time they're getting gas.
Oh now I remember. I built my support bay on the low ground. Is that really all that needs to be fixed in the build order?
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On March 07 2012 13:49 iamke55 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2012 13:47 kcdc wrote:On March 07 2012 13:03 iamke55 wrote:
I lost to lizzuma building 6 rax on 1 base. He thought I would build a robo upon running past his bunker and seeing no command center. It turned out I forgot to bring a probe to run past the bunker and built a robo anyways to blind counter the triple OC build he did in the previous game, so I died to the mass marines/scvs. Even if I had played properly and ran past his bunker though, I still would've made a robo. Anyone know what to do here? Got a rep? 6 rax on 1 base is all-in. It might be a situation where you have to sac your expo, forcefield your ramp and go 1-base colossus. It's tough to imagine T holding when you're getting support bay at the same time they're getting gas. Oh now I remember. I built my support bay on the low ground. Is that really all that needs to be fixed in the build order?
Can't tell w/o a rep. As long as the build has a quick robo and enough sentries to forcefield the ramp, it seems like you should be able to counterattack with colossi and win just about every time. On Shakuras, it might even be possible to hold your natural.
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cool build, having good success but takes me time to get used to no midgame observers x.x
curious if you (or someone high level) has played around with the 7gate response to a 4racks?
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Found another replay, MC vs Puma
http://www.esl-world.net/masters/season6/hanover/sc2/playoffs/download/26117246/
I noticed Koreans are playing it a little more gas heavy than I am, often making 6 sentries instead of 4. This is probably the stronger option for pressure, as you have more force fields to work with, you need them later anyways since you don't aim for colossi, and the Terran player is more likely to think you're going all-in. Also, they have cut their gateway count down to 3 at first to get the nexus up faster and make it less readable to a scan.
On another note, I imagine this style having a tough time against the 2 base ghost/medivac style used recently by Jjakji and fOrGG. I haven't actually played against it though yet since the foreigner metagame mainly consists of builds focusing on econ/upgrades rather than faster ghost tech.
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Hero just tried this vs Maru in the second winners match of GSL. He got completely shut down but I think that had a lot to do with Maru actually getting away with a triple orbital into double engineering bay build vs the 4 gate push. Also the medivac count eventually steamrolled out of control and the ghosts just made the army of Maru so damn efficient.
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On March 27 2012 21:08 CaptainHaz wrote:
Hero just tried this vs Maru in the second winners match of GSL. He got completely shut down but I think that had a lot to do with Maru actually getting away with a triple orbital into double engineering bay build vs the 4 gate push. Also the medivac count eventually steamrolled out of control and the ghosts just made the army of Maru so damn efficient.
yeah just do it this bo, but maru smartly do a scan in third of hero when was building so he took fast 3d... balancing a little the advantage economic of hero
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Italy12247 Posts
On March 27 2012 21:08 CaptainHaz wrote:
Hero just tried this vs Maru in the second winners match of GSL. He got completely shut down but I think that had a lot to do with Maru actually getting away with a triple orbital into double engineering bay build vs the 4 gate push. Also the medivac count eventually steamrolled out of control and the ghosts just made the army of Maru so damn efficient.
Hero completely screwed up his 4gate pressure though, and it kinda snowballed from there: it forced him to get charge rather than blink to defend the medivac timing, which meant he took more damage than you normally would from drops, and he wasn't able to be active on the map with zealot/archon after taking his third like you would normally want.
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Here's a game with mc and taeja where mc does a version of this build. However he transitions into fast collosi instead of twilight council.
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Has anyone noticed nani's 3gate timing poke, after 1gate FE in his recent code S matches?
It reminds me alot of what was described in here.
The problem is that in the cases he's done the build, he won outright vs 1/0 bunkers, or had to get a Robo because of suspected Banshee play (But it was a hidden CC by Ryung).
From memory Nani goes:
- 2 zealots -> sentry
nexus (before 30).
2nd Sentry, add 2 gates. Add 2nd gas.
Add stalker (should be able to get this out before WG is done).
Pokes with 2 sentry, 2 zealots + 3/4 stalkers. Has over 300 energy at the time of poke (saw 2GS, 3 FF's).
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EPT
