EPT[G]Gateway Pressure, Fast 3 Base PvT - Page 2
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Arcanefrost
Belgium1257 Posts
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CaptainHaz
United States240 Posts
On February 17 2012 01:42 Arcanefrost wrote: What's the advantage of this over parting style triple nexus into 8gate pressure? I feel like parting's build is slightly better. I believe that Parting's build is weaker vs a naked rax marine push following the expand. | ||
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iamke55
United States2806 Posts
On February 17 2012 01:42 Arcanefrost wrote: What's the advantage of this over parting style triple nexus into 8gate pressure? I feel like parting's build is slightly better. This build is safe against marine/SCV pushes and 2 base cloaked banshee. About the timing of the 3rd to 6th gases, I get 3-4 just after starting the third nexus and 5-6 when I feel safe. I usually feel safe if I stop the Terran's 2 base medivac push or if I finish getting blink and there are no signs of a medivac push coming. | ||
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Protossking
Australia103 Posts
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Micket
United Kingdom2163 Posts
This is the sort of build that crushes me in TvP. I can't tell between a gateway all in and pressure. Should I scan nat gasses to see whether there is a tech transition? | ||
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Arcanefrost
Belgium1257 Posts
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iamke55
United States2806 Posts
I made some mistakes losing units early on and we both blind countered each other based on the previous 2 games so it's not a perfect replay, but he is the best Terran I've beaten so far. If we didn't know exactly what to expect from each other, I would've had to build 2 stalkers in case of a 3 rax cheese and he would've had to make more than 1 bunker in case I was doing a 2 base all-in. | ||
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KalWarkov
Germany4126 Posts
Otherwise nice build, but if he just pushes on 2 base with 4 medivacs and more or less ignores your blink-harass, youre in trouble. User was warned for this post | ||
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weikor
Austria580 Posts
I might agree that players have been rushing for upgrades too much, but wouldnt you be able to do something similar with 7 gate +forge, or even cut probes add forge and have at least armor going? | ||
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Tsutchie
Australia951 Posts
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Skyro
United States1823 Posts
On February 17 2012 03:12 iamke55 wrote: This build is safe against marine/SCV pushes and 2 base cloaked banshee. About the timing of the 3rd to 6th gases, I get 3-4 just after starting the third nexus and 5-6 when I feel safe. I usually feel safe if I stop the Terran's 2 base medivac push or if I finish getting blink and there are no signs of a medivac push coming. If you using a 7:30 poke to determine if they are going cloaked banshees then I don't see how this build is any safer than parting's build which gets the 3rd Nexus ~6m but still can afford a robo @ 7:30. Also what marine/SCV push are you referring to? I've only seen the 1-base naked 2-rax version with supply drop. Currently I'm working on a 20-Nexus (more or less Huk's 1-Gate FE opener) and then using my first round of warp-ins on Stalkers (5 total) which I use to poke their front a little bit after 6 mins. 5 Stalkers keeps you safe from marine/SCV all-ins with proper micro as well as any naked 4/5-Rax pushes. I grab my 3rd Nexus behind this ~7:20 (while warping in Sentries at home). You can be quite aggressive with these 5 Stalkers on maps where there's no ramp at the natural, and you can often prevent additional Bunkers and/or other buildings that they might be using to wall-off. I'm pretty sure that if they straight tech to cloak Banshees they wouldn't be able to stop even 3-Gate pressure at this timing since they are relying on a single rax. And that's another bonus of doing it this way since it's right @ 7:20 that you decide to throw down either a 3rd Nexus or an additional 4-Gates to go 7-Gate all-in. | ||
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Warzilla
Czech Republic311 Posts
On February 19 2012 07:13 KalWarkov wrote: you need more gates @ OP, 1.6k mins on minute 16, thats 16 zealots you could have more (lets say 10, you wouldve needed some more gates as well and youre never on 0, right). Otherwise nice build, but if he just pushes on 2 base with 4 medivacs and more or less ignores your blink-harass, youre in trouble. Did you speedread through the thread or something ? Otherwise youre a troll i think its explained well in the guide | ||
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-stOpSKY-
Canada498 Posts
On February 19 2012 07:08 iamke55 wrote: After matching LaGTtFaith 3 times in a row, I determined that the 3rd and 4th gases should not be built as early as I originally recommended. It is better to go up to 8 gates as soon as possible to deflect the medivac pressure and then add 4 assimilators once you hold it off. Here is the replay after I made the change: http://drop.sc/114603 I made some mistakes losing units early on and we both blind countered each other based on the previous 2 games so it's not a perfect replay, but he is the best Terran I've beaten so far. If we didn't know exactly what to expect from each other, I would've had to build 2 stalkers in case of a 3 rax cheese and he would've had to make more than 1 bunker in case I was doing a 2 base all-in. In that rep you didnt get any obs. All you scouted at the front were some marines and 2 bunker, how could you be sure there is no cloak banshee coming? | ||
Teoita
Italy12248 Posts
On February 19 2012 19:14 Skyro wrote: If you using a 7:30 poke to determine if they are going cloaked banshees then I don't see how this build is any safer than parting's build which gets the 3rd Nexus ~6m but still can afford a robo @ 7:30. You only use this build against a no gas/1rax fe terran, which means the timing for cloak banshees is (afaik) 9 minutes or so. So yes, a 7.30 poke is actually safe against such a delayed cloak build. | ||
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iamke55
United States2806 Posts
On February 19 2012 19:14 Skyro wrote: If you using a 7:30 poke to determine if they are going cloaked banshees then I don't see how this build is any safer than parting's build which gets the 3rd Nexus ~6m but still can afford a robo @ 7:30. Also what marine/SCV push are you referring to? I've only seen the 1-base naked 2-rax version with supply drop. Currently I'm working on a 20-Nexus (more or less Huk's 1-Gate FE opener) and then using my first round of warp-ins on Stalkers (5 total) which I use to poke their front a little bit after 6 mins. 5 Stalkers keeps you safe from marine/SCV all-ins with proper micro as well as any naked 4/5-Rax pushes. I grab my 3rd Nexus behind this ~7:20 (while warping in Sentries at home). You can be quite aggressive with these 5 Stalkers on maps where there's no ramp at the natural, and you can often prevent additional Bunkers and/or other buildings that they might be using to wall-off. I'm pretty sure that if they straight tech to cloak Banshees they wouldn't be able to stop even 3-Gate pressure at this timing since they are relying on a single rax. And that's another bonus of doing it this way since it's right @ 7:20 that you decide to throw down either a 3rd Nexus or an additional 4-Gates to go 7-Gate all-in. Puzzle tried Parting's build against Gumiho on Metropolis and lost to cloaked banshees. Parting might be able to afford a robo at 7:30, but I've never seen him build it. If he did, I imagine it would be blind so it slows down the 8 gate timing attack. The marine/SCV push I'm talking about is off of 4 or 5 barracks after an expansion. I remember those being an auto-win against 1 gate expo builds that make a robo before gates 2 and 3 on maps other than Shakuras, so it is safe to assume that it also beats the 1 gate 3 nexus opening. As for the build you're working on, it sounds strong against any marine/SCV attacks but I don't think you would have enough sentries early enough to threaten a 2 base all-in. On February 19 2012 20:01 -stOpSKY- wrote: In that rep you didnt get any obs. All you scouted at the front were some marines and 2 bunker, how could you be sure there is no cloak banshee coming? I know from experience that 2 base cloaked banshee builds should have around 8 marines at the time I was at his front. Since he had a lot more, I knew he had multiple barracks. I poked again around 9 minutes to kill a marine and saw a marauder behind his bunkers. Also he beat me the 2 games before with the same MMM push so I was pretty sure he'd do it again. | ||
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-stOpSKY-
Canada498 Posts
On February 19 2012 21:30 iamke55 wrote: Puzzle tried Parting's build against Gumiho on Metropolis and lost to cloaked banshees. Parting might be able to afford a robo at 7:30, but I've never seen him build it. If he did, I imagine it would be blind so it slows down the 8 gate timing attack. The marine/SCV push I'm talking about is off of 4 or 5 barracks after an expansion. I remember those being an auto-win against 1 gate expo builds that make a robo before gates 2 and 3 on maps other than Shakuras, so it is safe to assume that it also beats the 1 gate 3 nexus opening. As for the build you're working on, it sounds strong against any marine/SCV attacks but I don't think you would have enough sentries early enough to threaten a 2 base all-in. I know from experience that 2 base cloaked banshee builds should have around 8 marines at the time I was at his front. Since he had a lot more, I knew he had multiple barracks. I poked again around 9 minutes to kill a marine and saw a marauder behind his bunkers. Also he beat me the 2 games before with the same MMM push so I was pretty sure he'd do it again. Thanks for fast answer makes sense. So poking at his front and seeing less marines you would throw down the robo before the additional gateways and get obs? And do you not feel as though getting the robo just for obs in general is worth it? | ||
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iamke55
United States2806 Posts
On February 19 2012 22:17 -stOpSKY- wrote: Thanks for fast answer makes sense. So poking at his front and seeing less marines you would throw down the robo before the additional gateways and get obs? And do you not feel as though getting the robo just for obs in general is worth it? Yeah you choose between a robo or a twilight council when you see what the Terran has at that point. Observers are pointless here against standard builds because blink stalkers can attack the Terran's army whenever you want, so you'll always be able to keep track of where the medivacs are. Back when I build the twilight council after my third nexus I would always have trouble with Terrans who faked a frontal attack but actually loaded up medivacs to hit my main, but this is no longer a problem with the faster blink. | ||
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Skyro
United States1823 Posts
On February 19 2012 21:30 iamke55 wrote: Puzzle tried Parting's build against Gumiho on Metropolis and lost to cloaked banshees. Parting might be able to afford a robo at 7:30, but I've never seen him build it. If he did, I imagine it would be blind so it slows down the 8 gate timing attack. The marine/SCV push I'm talking about is off of 4 or 5 barracks after an expansion. I remember those being an auto-win against 1 gate expo builds that make a robo before gates 2 and 3 on maps other than Shakuras, so it is safe to assume that it also beats the 1 gate 3 nexus opening. As for the build you're working on, it sounds strong against any marine/SCV attacks but I don't think you would have enough sentries early enough to threaten a 2 base all-in. What I'm saying is that you use a 7:30 poke to ascertain if cloak banshees are a possibility, but there's nothing stopping Parting from doing the same poke (albeit with less units) to get the same information. As for a 2-base marine/scv push I'm guessing this is just a reactionary response to seeing a fast 3rd from you? And I usually make 3 or 4 sentries. I can make more but I feel that is more than enough to stop any 2-base medivac timing. How many do you feel you need? My preference also is to go for charge first and use HT to manage drops. Usually drop twilight ~8 so charge is done ~10:30 when most medivac + stim timings would hit. The difference seems nuanced, as basically you delay the expo for an extra gate for added pressure. edit: Is that the only replay you have of Oz (or some other pro) doing this build? | ||
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JOJOsc2news
3000 Posts
On February 15 2012 16:21 ccJroy wrote: Interesting. Will try it out. Can't figure out a good "Standard" build vs gasless FE. Watch Day[9] Daily 420 - Naniwa's PvT Opening It's literally amazing against gasless FE and allows you to get up an early third base. If you don't mess up you'll be ahead from the moment you scout the gasless FE. | ||
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KookyMonster
United States311 Posts
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