EPT
also lol at blue thread :>
[G] PvP : Modern 3 Stalker - Page 2
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Yagulare
Poland42 Posts
also lol at blue thread :> | ||
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Tiegrr
United States607 Posts
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CecilSunkure
United States2829 Posts
Changelog (oldest to newest descending): | ||
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Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
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chestnutcc
India429 Posts
Lately though on the ladder, I've had some trouble with 1 gate robo players, who sit up their ramp until they have 3 immortals and then just make a death push. I find myself stretched a bit thin because I go for twilight robo, and seem to lack the requisite numbers. Should you get a robo at all if you have determined they are a dedicated robo player? In one of your games you push right up the ramp and snipe the first immortal, any advice on how to gauge the effectiveness of trading stalkers for immortals etc would be useful. Also, in cases where they expo, I find blinking into the main rarely effective. Is it better to keep attacking the front to snipe the nexus i.e. how would you handle all inning early expos? | ||
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Westy
England808 Posts
And, you give two variations of the build depending on what your opponent is doing, yet on 4 player maps unless you scout him straight away you won't actually know if he is straight up 4gating or if he is being greedy. Which means you will have to play the safer version, which if he manages to get his scouting probe in your base before you get yours in his, your second gas will be open for a gas steal as soon as he see's the 2 gates. These are the two things that concern me most. How would you go about handling both situations? | ||
monk
United States8476 Posts
On January 22 2012 21:54 Markwerf wrote: Overall though I think 3 stalker defense has a couple flaws why it shouldn't be used too much: - it delays the second assimilator and the following tech too much, in return for some map control. 1 gate builds can defend 4 gate just as well on most maps and just get up tech faster. They might require a sentry more to do so but they also gather the gas earlier so that isn't that troublesome. Both builds get assimilator at pretty much the exact same time. On average, the 2 gate build gets an assimilator 50 minerals later than the 1 gate build. It's also possible to get assimlator before 2nd gate. - you're showing the opponent too much early on. When your opponent scouts the 2 gates and 3 chrono being used on nexus already plus a chrono on the stalker he can simply deduce too much imo. 4 gate is out of the window because of the chrono being spent on other stuff already, 1 gate expo is obviously not possible anymore either and very fast tech like a dt build isn't possible because of the lack of gas. Basically you're telling your opponent you intend to do 2 gate robo, blink or stargate. I think there are some builds which can specifically counter the 2 gate build on some maps. Who says you have to use 3 chronos on nexus? In fact, both this guide and I personally only use 2 chronos on nexus. - there is a huge window for the other to do a gas steal! Because you lack a zealot you can't take down the assimilator quickly and the second gate also makes a quick FE much harder. You could possibly do some robo build off 1 gas with an expo perhaps but expoing is still a gambling game in PvP that I don't like to do. Getting gas stolen without having a quick zealot is just really detrimental I think and if you're forced to use the stalker to kill the assimilator it gets even worse as you've lost your early map presence then. The 2 ways to prevent that are as follows: You can either get the gas before 2nd gate and not mine from the gas so fast or you can queue up a zealot beforehand. Also, some pros have said in commentaries that it's bad to gas steal, but I personally don't understand the reasoning behind that. @ monk don't you think the difference in tech timing is much bigger between 1 gate and 2 gate defense? With gate-robo-gate the robo is up MUCH faster then with gate-gate-robo really. This is basically because robo tech doesn't need a sentry that early because it's already quite decent at stopping 4 gates because of immortals. I think the difference is 20 seconds at least, which is quite big if you want to scout with an obs asap. If you follow this build for 1 gate and the build in this thread for 2 gate, 4:43-4:45 and 4:45-4:50 are what I tested the timings to be respectively. In retrospect though, I will admit that I tested the 2 gate build on xelnaga with good mineral stacking and I got the 1 gate timing off of a replay in Alej's thread that was on Antiga, so taking that into account, these numbers are fairly off. However, the exact difference between the tech building timings in these 2 builds should be slightly less than the time it takes for ~14 probes on minerals and 6 probes on gas to mine 175 minerals and 50 gas, so the real difference in timing should be around 14 seconds. I'll wanna test this more though. | ||
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AGIANTSMURF
United States1232 Posts
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Whalecore
Norway1111 Posts
So from now on I'll play 3 stalker opening for most of my PvPs. It's a great way to get map control, put on some early pressure, and force your opponent to show his cards. | ||
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CecilSunkure
United States2829 Posts
On January 23 2012 07:42 Alejandrisha wrote: have you made changes vs 4gate since we last met cecil? ^^ Yeah a little bit! On January 23 2012 07:48 chestnutcc wrote: Kudos Cecil, I was hoping you would update your rendition of Yongwha's Triple Stalker build, which was by far my favourite PvP opener. I really liked Naniwas aggressive version of this build, it nicely checks ridiculously greedy play, though it is, of course, quite a micro intensive strategy. Lately though on the ladder, I've had some trouble with 1 gate robo players, who sit up their ramp until they have 3 immortals and then just make a death push. I find myself stretched a bit thin because I go for twilight robo, and seem to lack the requisite numbers. Should you get a robo at all if you have determined they are a dedicated robo player? In one of your games you push right up the ramp and snipe the first immortal, any advice on how to gauge the effectiveness of trading stalkers for immortals etc would be useful. Also, in cases where they expo, I find blinking into the main rarely effective. Is it better to keep attacking the front to snipe the nexus i.e. how would you handle all inning early expos? Yeah if you focus the Immortals and have good micro you can take out an Immortal army in some situations. A good situation is when Blink first finishes and you see he only has a single Immortal up his ramp. Another situation is against an Immortal Expand; wait for their Nexus to finish, then right when it does just attack their Natural and don't lose any Stalkers. If they do an annoying push, then Sentry/Stalker/Immortal is best, cut the Zealots and don't rely on getting a lot of Immortals, just get whatever out you can. Since he has no Blink he'll be at the mercy of your FFs, and you'll have defender's advantage. You should be able to easily expand and hold a push like this. You can also Blink into his base the moment he leaves! You'll have major favor during a base trade. On January 23 2012 07:58 Westy wrote: I have 2 questions I would like to ask if they have not already been asked. If your not scouting until you put down your cybercore on a 4 player map, surely any 2gate zealot proxied in the middle of the map will just beat this? There will be 3 zealots in your mineral line before the second and third stalker are even out? And, you give two variations of the build depending on what your opponent is doing, yet on 4 player maps unless you scout him straight away you won't actually know if he is straight up 4gating or if he is being greedy. Which means you will have to play the safer version, which if he manages to get his scouting probe in your base before you get yours in his, your second gas will be open for a gas steal as soon as he see's the 2 gates. These are the two things that concern me most. How would you go about handling both situations? 2 Gate proxy in the middle of the map is extremely unlikely from most players. If you feel the probability of it happening is high then you can deviate. I however would probably just try my luck with Stalkers/Probe micro to hold. If you look the variations are very close early on, the only real difference being the second Assimilator timing for a while. Also you don't have to play the safer version if there's no info gained for a while on a 4 player map, it just depends on how comfortable you are greeding. It's about how comfortable you are with greeding that determines what actions you take. However when it comes to a certain point, I don't usually greed anymore until I gain required info (i.e. first scout probe). | ||
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Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
Both builds get assimilator at pretty much the exact same time. On average, the 2 gate build gets an assimilator 50 minerals later than the 1 gate build. It's also possible to get assimlator before 2nd gate. This is true. I think it's important to note that when you get the 2nd gate and 2nd gas very quickly, you need to cut probes slightly. this is assuming you are going for those structures on 18 or 19 food. with this build, your 1st stalker can't start for sometime after your core finishes, which I have a big problem with. Who says you have to use 3 chronos on nexus? In fact, both this guide and I personally only use 2 chronos on nexus. I too find 3 chrono on Nexus silly, especially since your opponent will be hip to it if he scouts you before his first stalker is out. to me, this simply allows me to cut my sentry for the time being. even if he is 4gating me, i can still get it out in time as i realize it's happening and get additional sentries out in time if need be to hold it safely and with quick tech just the same. 3rd chrono on nexus seems silly to me in that regard. i'm capped on the pace of my buildings completing, not my income. and in most cases a probe cut at a certain point in pvp is very appropriate off of one base. no need to sprint to my ideal probe number for 25 nexus energy. | ||
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
On January 23 2012 08:26 NrGmonk wrote: Both builds get assimilator at pretty much the exact same time. On average, the 2 gate build gets an assimilator 50 minerals later than the 1 gate build. It's also possible to get assimlator before 2nd gate. ye you can just go 2nd gate and then assimilator before the stalker but you'll be forced into a probe cut, so actually two gate builds have the second gas much later as you usually have to make the stalker before you can make the assimilator, or ofcourse do a probe cut and make the economic impact even worse. Late scouting could work to fix this problem but it's bad play to scout too later then 13 in PvP imo. You either need to check proxy and their base or check multiple spawning spots, stuff like an 11 gate you really need to know in time. Who says you have to use 3 chronos on nexus? In fact, both this guide and I personally only use 2 chronos on nexus. Ok that can work I guess but I have a huge preference for three chrono on nexus in PvP because I basically go double gas always. The third chrono is worth more then 50 minerals in that case, a waste not to use imo. Only build i'll just chrono nexus twice with is a (fake) 4 gate. The 2 ways to prevent that are as follows: You can either get the gas before 2nd gate and not mine from the gas so fast or you can queue up a zealot beforehand. Also, some pros have said in commentaries that it's bad to gas steal, but I personally don't understand the reasoning behind that. I have always assumed there is some way to gain ahead against gas steal, perhaps the koreans know this and thus not do it. Perhaps some sort expo build. Personally I hate getting gas stolen though as it forces me into 4 gate or expo I feel both of which i'm not comfortable with especially since the opponent usually knows you're up to this. I'd be interested to know what this counter to gas steal is, it must probably be an expansion build but I haven't found one that is completely safe against a gas stealer with 2 gas maybe a 1 gate expo into 3 gate robo or something? Or perhaps with use of a forge? If you follow this build for 1 gate and the build in this thread for 2 gate, 4:43-4:45 and 4:45-4:50 are what I tested the timings to be respectively. In retrospect though, I will admit that I tested the 2 gate build on xelnaga with good mineral stacking and I got the 1 gate timing off of a replay in Alej's thread that was on Antiga, so taking that into account, these numbers are fairly off. However, the exact difference between the tech building timings in these 2 builds should be slightly less than the time it takes for ~14 probes on minerals and 6 probes on gas to mine 175 minerals and 50 gas, so the real difference in timing should be around 14 seconds. I'll wanna test this more though. Ye ok with those builds the difference is not so big, but those are quite slow for teching (overly safe imo, especially for robo tech). In my testing the difference for the tech is as big as 30 seconds, (I tend t get robo around 4:20-4:25). Calculating the timing difference from the difference in costs spent till that point gives you a MINIMUM amount of time difference really as at least 2 gate build spends 175m 50g more before the tech then 1 gate. 1 gate build however can get the robo before the 2nd stalker without interruption so the difference becomes 300minerals then, or roughly 30 seconds. Calculating it from this is very rough though as there are so many tiny differences like diferent gas intake, different use of chrono etc. | ||
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FederigoEU
Germany50 Posts
as always a good read and sooo much quality talk too  | ||
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CecilSunkure
United States2829 Posts
On January 23 2012 09:16 FederigoEU wrote: hey hey just one question : In some cast in the past i heard that it is better to let 2 probes on each geyser mine gas instead of a 3:1 ratio , but i really dont know if thats the case and even if this statement is true i dont know how much benefit it would get. as always a good read and sooo much quality talk too Dunno, try it out. It can't hurt | ||
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monk
United States8476 Posts
On January 23 2012 09:11 Markwerf wrote: ye you can just go 2nd gate and then assimilator before the stalker but you'll be forced into a probe cut, so actually two gate builds have the second gas much later as you usually have to make the stalker before you can make the assimilator, or ofcourse do a probe cut and make the economic impact even worse. Late scouting could work to fix this problem but it's bad play to scout too later then 13 in PvP imo. You either need to check proxy and their base or check multiple spawning spots, stuff like an 11 gate you really need to know in time. Don't see why you have to probe cut or why you have to get a stalker before assimilator. Ok that can work I guess but I have a huge preference for three chrono on nexus in PvP because I basically go double gas always. The third chrono is worth more then 50 minerals in that case, a waste not to use imo. Only build i'll just chrono nexus twice with is a (fake) 4 gate. You can do almost identical aggression builds if you spend 3 chronos on your nexus with both 1 gate and 2 gate. Most of these aggressions aren't very good. Ye ok with those builds the difference is not so big, but those are quite slow for teching (overly safe imo, especially for robo tech). In my testing the difference for the tech is as big as 30 seconds, (I tend t get robo around 4:20-4:25). Calculating the timing difference from the difference in costs spent till that point gives you a MINIMUM amount of time difference really as at least 2 gate build spends 175m 50g more before the tech then 1 gate. 1 gate build however can get the robo before the 2nd stalker without interruption so the difference becomes 300minerals then, or roughly 30 seconds. Calculating it from this is very rough though as there are so many tiny differences like diferent gas intake, different use of chrono etc. Ok, there might be some robo builds that can hold with earlier robo, but it doesn't work for any other tech building. There are also a lot of disadvantages to those builds, such as almost being forced to make immortals and lack of early game map control due to lack of stalkers. I'd have to see a specific robo build to comment more. | ||
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EatThePath
United States3943 Posts
Came in to mention this, found it, glad others are paying attention! It is true that on many geyser setups, it's better to mine 2&2, not 3&1. This is because on some geysers (like a perfect corner geyser, which are fairly rare in maps these days), 3 probes is actually slightly oversaturated. I often do 2&2 when I make a second assimilator to match theirs but I don't want to put all 6 probes out of mineral income. It probably makes a small difference... xD | ||
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Forbidden17
666 Posts
wait what >< whats a 1gate FE in PvP? That exists?? I've never seen it before, could you link a tournament game (or just reference and I'll try to look for it) where this has been done? | ||
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CecilSunkure
United States2829 Posts
On January 23 2012 16:37 Forbidden17 wrote: wait what >< whats a 1gate FE in PvP? That exists?? I've never seen it before, could you link a tournament game (or just reference and I'll try to look for it) where this has been done? I've done it. I do 1 Gate DT FE sometimes lol. | ||
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Forbidden17
666 Posts
On January 23 2012 16:42 CecilSunkure wrote: I've done it. I do 1 Gate DT FE sometimes lol. I'm guessing there's a specific circumstance you can get away with this though? Aren't you completely dead vs. blink obs play? | ||
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JonnyLaw
United States3482 Posts
On January 23 2012 16:48 Forbidden17 wrote: I'm guessing there's a specific circumstance you can get away with this though? Aren't you completely dead vs. blink obs play? Blink obs comes too late on most maps to really kill a 1gate expo that doesn't get a lot of probes if the nexus is scouted with an observer. 400 minerals into nexus + the added income of mining 16 mineral patches. Vs the 200/100 (and obs) + 300/300 for blink. The problem is you cannot break or avoid forcefields. A dt expo allows you up and down your ramp and gives you a degree of map control. If the blink players plays well you can exploit the small army and lack of mobility with blink and forcefields. But I wouldnt say the expanding players is dead. A dedicated blink rush with 23 workers should kill the nexus though. | ||
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