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[G] PvP : Modern 3 Stalker
Revision [ 1 ]
Changelog (oldest to newest descending):
> [ NEW ] Modified Stalker Control Section
> [ NEW ] Noted Assimilator in "Conservative" Build
> [ NEW ] Added replays from IEM Kiev
Overview
Hello all! I'm sure a lot of you have seen the old thread about the 3 Stalker rush, but that thread is old. Since there was a recent snow storm where I live that cancelled school for a week I've been able to play a bit more lately and want to share what I've learned!
There are many variations of this opening that can be executed depending on the circumstances of how the early game plays out. The strength in this opening is versatility -something hard to achieve in a mirror matchup, especially PvP.
Before we continue, you must realize that this opening is rather difficult to execute, and you shouldn't actually use more than a single Sentry in the early game. Knowing this, I still highly recommend everyone try this opening, as pushing your boundaries until they become your new norm is how you improve.
Performance vs Stability (Greed vs Safety)
Currently my favorite way to play this opening is with a very fast tech structure off of just two Gateways. Although you can play a much safer variation with 3 Gateways into a tech structure of your choice. This opening is even versatile enough to allow you a very strong delayed 4 Gate on Tal'Darim Altar, or other maps with similar layouts such as Bel'Shir beach. I'll provide information on all of the variations I know of.
◕ Delay Scout
Whenever there is little to no threat of proxy 2 Gates, you can delay your scout immensely in PvP due to the probability of there not being cheese. On any 4 spawn map you can delay your first scout for as long as when your Cybernetics Core goes down. You can do this because you don't really need to look for cheese, except for perhaps cannon rushing around your main, and because you can still scout all the information you need by the time his first Stalker will finish. This will allow you an extra boost of minerals to then invest towards some sort of advantage.
On other maps such as XNC where there are only 2-3 spawns, you should scout after your first Gateway to search for proxy gates. Even on Shakuras Plateau.
◕ Greedy - Vs fast Vespene or Chrono on Nexus
Obviously you'll want a fast Vespene geyser as well, so take it right after your Gateway (or before if you're afraid he'll steal it). You'll want to match your opponent's chrono on his Nexus if he spends it on his, unless you're comfortable with a 4 Gate followup - however a 4 Gate followup is not within the scope of this post.
- Pylon
- Chrono -> Nexus @100% Pylon
- Chrono -> Nexus @100% Chrono
- Gateway
- Assimilator
- Pylon (2)
- Cybernetics Core
- Gateway (2)
- Assimilator (2)
- Stalker + WarpGate Research @100% Cybernetics Core
- One Probe on Second Vespene Geyser
- Pylon (3)
- Pause Probe production (24-25 supply)
- Two Stalkers @100% Gateway (2)
- Resume Probe production
- Chrono -> WarpGate Research; Stalker; Stalker
- Scout sides of base with two Probes
- Two probes on Second Vespene Geyser
- Tech Structure
- Gateway (3) OR additional units from Gateways
- Pylon (4)
◕ Conservative - Vs Suspected 4 Gate; No Second Geyser + Stocked Chrono
There are a slew of different aggressive openings that can come at you, and you can deviate from this next outline by greeding as much as you like until it becomes the opening just above this one. It just depends on how comfortable you are with your early game defense. However this outline will be the most conservative outline that I realistically use.
- Pylon
- Chrono -> Nexus @100% Pylon
- Chrono -> Nexus @100% Chrono
- Gateway
- Assimilator
- Pylon (2)
- Cybernetics Core
- Gateway (2)
- Stalker + WarpGate Research @100% Cybernetics Core
- Two Stalkers @100% Gateway (2)
- Chrono -> WarpGate Research; Stalker; Stalker
- Robotics Facility
- Pylon (3)
- Gateway (3)
- Zealot; Sentry*
- Pylon (4)
- *This Sentry is used to FF the ramp during the opponent's initial attempt to bust your ramp.
- Note: The Assimilator (2) can now be taken as comfortable. However, you can take it earlier if you feel comfortable. Right after the Robotics Facility goes down may be a good time.
The Tech - Mid-Game
During the mid-game there are three tech structures to choose; Stargate; Twilight Council; Robotics Facility. I like to use all three! No not all three at once 
I don't intend to make an exhaustive resource for these three tech structures, as that's a large amount of valuable information that I honestly don't have time to write, and probably shouldn't write as I can't give away everything I know for free. I would however love to outline the general thought process of going each of the tech paths.
◕ Stargate
Stargate is I think the most interesting of all three tech choices. Phoenixes make for very interesting games. The phoenix allows a player to consistently pin their opponent in threatening to strike Probes, also allow a player to bust ramps extremely easily by lifting key units such as Sentries or Immortals.
If you open with fast Stargate there are two options: expand or allin. Things to note about opening with a fast Stargate is that detection is delayed unless a fast Robo is also opted. Fast Stargate may also be a build order loss to fast Twilight Council, at the very least a soft-counter.
◕ Robotics Facility
The Robotics Facility during the mid-game works well in a few ways: 2 Colossus Allin/Colossus Expand; Immortal FE; Blink + Obs; Phoenix/Immortal/Zealot allin. I would recommend to newer players to definitely get a Robotics Facility as their mid-game tech structure, as it prevents unnecessary losses to Dark Templar, and provides Observers which are key for people trying to improve. In my opinion there is very little risk involved with Robotics oriented styles of play.
I suggest trying a 2 Colossus allin or Immortal FE with a grounding in the 3 Stalker opening. I've beaten many many a player with a simple 2 Colossus allin off of the 3 Stalker opening.
◕ Twilight Council
The Twilight Council allows for: Chargelot/Archon; Dark Templar; Blink; Chargelot/Immortal. Twilight openings are always the scariest for me to face, and thus why I've been messing around so long with a DT FE variation. Fast DT allow for strong harass presence, fast Blink grants insane mobility and many aggressive options, and then there's the Chargelot/Archon and Immortal variations as well.
If you open with the 3 Stalker I suggest trying very fast Blink. If your opponent has only one unit from a Robitics facility by the time Blink finishes, you should be able to simply Blink up and bust the ramp victoriously with equal micro.
Stalker Control
This build involves a lot of subtle Stalker control techniques that allow for a successful opening. I've compiled a simple priority list to help!
- Block entrance to Natural (defend your ramp!)
- Kill Probes
- Kill Stalkers
- Kill Zealots
- Kill Pylons
That's it! If you prioritize what you do with your Stalkers properly then you'll be in great shape. The reason you want to block you Natural Expansion location as top priority is because this is the area you do not want any pylons to be placed. Who cares if a pylon for a 4 Gate is placed in the middle of the map -it doesn't matter. What matters is nothing goes inside of your Natural un-contested.
The next most important thing is to snipe probes. This is higher priority than sniping Pylons because without Probes there are no Pylons.
It's important to understand what I mean by Kill Stalkers and Kill Zealots. You don't want to chase things and stray from your ramp. However if enemy units are going to stand there and let you kill them (which is common believe it or not) then kill them! Killing an enemy unit this early in the game can win or lose you the game.
Killing pylons is lowest on the priority schema because you should be preventing pylons from being near your ramp. However if a Pylon does manage to land right on your ramp and there is little to no opposition around to prevent you from sniping it before WG finishes, do it by all means.
To note, there should absolutely never be a reason for a Pylon to be placed up on inside of your main. If this happens (unless it's ridiculously early like before your first Stalker has arrived) you probably deserve to lose the game. Prevent this!
Lastly, notice how I said kill not damage. Kill kill kill, you are a killer! You don't want your Stalkers to simply shoot at something only for it to run away, or for you to retreat. Shooting down shields (and to an extent HP) is just as bad as allying your opponent for the duration of your control schism.
If you are comfortable that a 4 Gate will not hit you, perhaps he took a second geyser and didn't stock much chrono, you can change your priority schema. Perhaps you want to fake hiding a fast expansion, or perhaps you want to attempt a mini-bust of your opponent as you assume strong greed (1 Gate + Tech). These can be done with your initial Stalkers. Naniwa at IEM Kiev has actually been doing a 2 Gate Stalker pressure + Tech structure (Twilight Council), and it's very cool. Just don't blindly run your Stalkers across the map and up the ramp -if you lose them to a couple Zealots and a Sentry you'll be disastrously behind. See the Naniwa replays below for resources on an aggressive 2 Gate into Blink.
Resources
- Humble replay pack featuring various scenarios: Pack
- Pack from IEM Kiev, featuring HerO, WhiteRa, and Naniwa using a triple Stalker opening! Pack
- http://drop.sc/99847 - Replay from Xaeldaren
- Post up your own replays! I'll add them to this list
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As always Cecil, amazing.
Your strategy is multifaceted, leaving little to no room for mistakes due to poor decision making due to the elaboration of this guide.
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wow, I've been thinking about variations of the 3stalker opening a lot recently, and now a wild [g] appears from cecil! this is so great!
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-edited out, please delete-
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I remember Axslav saying that the 3 stalker opener was archaic and that it is too easy to exploit, because you could sent probes from multiple angles, and on big maps you could sneak close pylons or probes fairly easily.
Or something like that...
I'll try to see if I can find the VoD where he talked about the 3 stalker rush on his stream.
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On January 22 2012 15:39 CrazyF1r3f0x wrote:
I remember Axslav saying that the 3 stalker opener was archaic and that it is too easy to exploit, because you could sent probes from multiple angles, and on big maps you could sneak close pylons or probes fairly easily.
Or something like that...
I'll try to see if I can find the VoD where he talked about the 3 stalker rush on his stream.
No probe sneaking can be done on the maps I play the opening on.
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Well its decided got my new PvP build
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lol, was just checking your account earlier today to see if you released a new guide. My Spidey Senses are tingling.
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when do you build your 2nd assimilator in the "conservative" version?
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On January 22 2012 16:21 Zeetee wrote:
when do you build your 2nd assimilator in the "conservative" version?
It's assumed to be after the listing. However like I stated, you can "greed" the Assimilator in earlier if you feel like you can get away with it. It should be very easy to fit it in before the tech structure.
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the only time i've seen a 2nd gate at 18 or 19 supply in an opener that i've liked is what nani has been doing a bit at kiev. but I still don't understand what this second gate offers me that I can't already have with a 1 gate opener :/
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On January 22 2012 16:57 Alejandrisha wrote:
the only time i've seen a 2nd gate at 18 or 19 supply in an opener that i've liked is what nani has been doing a bit at kiev. but I still don't understand what this second gate offers me that I can't already have with a 1 gate opener :/
For unit production before WG finishes. You gotta get a second Gate at some point, so it's not cutting into anything else, but allows you the option to construct units from it if you wish. Make sense? At least that's how I see it. Sometimes I don't even produce anything from it (ultra greed).
I think a lot also comes down to personal preference.
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On January 22 2012 16:57 Alejandrisha wrote:
the only time i've seen a 2nd gate at 18 or 19 supply in an opener that i've liked is what nani has been doing a bit at kiev. but I still don't understand what this second gate offers me that I can't already have with a 1 gate opener :/
2 gate openings let you skip the zealot so you have fewer non-stalker units later on for blinking. Also I think 3 stalker openings have more map control early on so it's easier to poke around and scout a 1 gate FE.
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On January 22 2012 17:14 iamke55 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2012 16:57 Alejandrisha wrote:
the only time i've seen a 2nd gate at 18 or 19 supply in an opener that i've liked is what nani has been doing a bit at kiev. but I still don't understand what this second gate offers me that I can't already have with a 1 gate opener :/ 2 gate openings let you skip the zealot so you have fewer non-stalker units later on for blinking. Also I think 3 stalker openings have more map control early on so it's easier to poke around and scout a 1 gate FE.
yep. the only time i'd condone a second gate on 19 (i don't condone a 2nd gate on 18 :p) is when you use the 3 stalkers somewhat aggressively. i hate the builds kr tosses do where they rush the 2nd gate and 2nd gas and use them defensively. sacrifice probe production, map control and early gw production for safety they could have off of a single gate
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United States8476 Posts
On January 22 2012 17:16 Alejandrisha wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2012 17:14 iamke55 wrote:On January 22 2012 16:57 Alejandrisha wrote:
the only time i've seen a 2nd gate at 18 or 19 supply in an opener that i've liked is what nani has been doing a bit at kiev. but I still don't understand what this second gate offers me that I can't already have with a 1 gate opener :/ 2 gate openings let you skip the zealot so you have fewer non-stalker units later on for blinking. Also I think 3 stalker openings have more map control early on so it's easier to poke around and scout a 1 gate FE. yep. the only time i'd condone a second gate on 19 (i don't condone a 2nd gate on 18 :p) is when you use the 3 stalkers somewhat aggressively. i hate the builds kr tosses do where they rush the 2nd gate and 2nd gas and use them defensively. sacrifice probe production, map control and early gw production for safety they could have off of a single gate
One big advantage of 2 gate openings that you might be overlooking is that you can defend 4 gates with just those 2 gates. With 1 gate openings, you need to eventually go up to 3 gates for the possibility of 4 gate. 2 builds that this advantage would be beneficial for are 2 gate expand and 2 gate phoenix.
With 2 gate expand, you're expanding as fast as possible without dying to 4 gate. 1 gate expand doesn't defend 4 gates. 3 gate expand is less greedy and imo less safe in the long run because of the later robo followup for obs and immortals.
I personally prefer 2 gate phoenix over 1 gate phoenix as well. One reason is that I don't ever use 3 gates initially and imo 3 gates is a really awkward number of gates to have when you go phoenix. It's not really enough to all-in with and you don't need all 3 to defend stuff. I always put up either a robo, 2 gates, or a nexus after my 2 gate phoenix opening. I can't think of a reason I would ever get a 3rd gate. Another small detail is that on average 2 gate defenses use fewer sentries than 1 gate defenses on average in my experience(probably around 1 fewer on average). When you're going phoenix especially, you want as much gas spent into phoenixes as possible.
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On January 22 2012 17:57 NrGmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2012 17:16 Alejandrisha wrote:On January 22 2012 17:14 iamke55 wrote:On January 22 2012 16:57 Alejandrisha wrote:
the only time i've seen a 2nd gate at 18 or 19 supply in an opener that i've liked is what nani has been doing a bit at kiev. but I still don't understand what this second gate offers me that I can't already have with a 1 gate opener :/ 2 gate openings let you skip the zealot so you have fewer non-stalker units later on for blinking. Also I think 3 stalker openings have more map control early on so it's easier to poke around and scout a 1 gate FE. yep. the only time i'd condone a second gate on 19 (i don't condone a 2nd gate on 18 :p) is when you use the 3 stalkers somewhat aggressively. i hate the builds kr tosses do where they rush the 2nd gate and 2nd gas and use them defensively. sacrifice probe production, map control and early gw production for safety they could have off of a single gate One big advantage of 2 gate openings that you might be overlooking is that you can defend 4 gates with just those 2 gates. With 1 gate openings, you need to eventually go up to 3 gates for the possibility of 4 gate. 2 builds that this advantage would be beneficial for are 2 gate expand and 2 gate phoenix. With 2 gate expand, you're expanding as fast as possible without dying to 4 gate. 1 gate expand doesn't defend 4 gates. 3 gate expand is less greedy and imo less safe in the long run because of the later robo followup for obs and immortals. I personally prefer 2 gate phoenix over 1 gate phoenix as well. One reason is that I don't ever use 3 gates initially and imo 3 gates is a really awkward number of gates to have when you go phoenix. It's not really enough to all-in with and you don't need all 3 to defend stuff. I always put up either a robo, 2 gates, or a nexus after my 2 gate phoenix opening. I can't think of a reason I would ever get a 3rd gate. Another small detail is that on average 2 gate defenses use fewer sentries than 1 gate defenses on average in my experience(probably around 1 fewer on average). When you're going phoenix especially, you want as much gas spent into phoenixes as possible.
this is just incorrect. a 1 gate tech build can hold a 4 gate with a 2nd gate on 30 supply after starting to tech, supplying the 3rd sentry if need be. 2 gate builds that get the 2nd gate on 29 food before a tech structure can do the same. the only advantage a fast 2nd gate for quick 3 and/or 5 stalkers has over a 1gate build is the ability to poke with stalkers after 4gate is out of the question, as far as i can tell. using these 2 gates and getting a very fast 2nd gas for safety is inefficient and too passive if you are teching. puzzle vs parting demonstrated that, if nothing else.
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United States8476 Posts
On January 22 2012 18:31 Alejandrisha wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2012 17:57 NrGmonk wrote:On January 22 2012 17:16 Alejandrisha wrote:On January 22 2012 17:14 iamke55 wrote:On January 22 2012 16:57 Alejandrisha wrote:
the only time i've seen a 2nd gate at 18 or 19 supply in an opener that i've liked is what nani has been doing a bit at kiev. but I still don't understand what this second gate offers me that I can't already have with a 1 gate opener :/ 2 gate openings let you skip the zealot so you have fewer non-stalker units later on for blinking. Also I think 3 stalker openings have more map control early on so it's easier to poke around and scout a 1 gate FE. yep. the only time i'd condone a second gate on 19 (i don't condone a 2nd gate on 18 :p) is when you use the 3 stalkers somewhat aggressively. i hate the builds kr tosses do where they rush the 2nd gate and 2nd gas and use them defensively. sacrifice probe production, map control and early gw production for safety they could have off of a single gate One big advantage of 2 gate openings that you might be overlooking is that you can defend 4 gates with just those 2 gates. With 1 gate openings, you need to eventually go up to 3 gates for the possibility of 4 gate. 2 builds that this advantage would be beneficial for are 2 gate expand and 2 gate phoenix. With 2 gate expand, you're expanding as fast as possible without dying to 4 gate. 1 gate expand doesn't defend 4 gates. 3 gate expand is less greedy and imo less safe in the long run because of the later robo followup for obs and immortals. I personally prefer 2 gate phoenix over 1 gate phoenix as well. One reason is that I don't ever use 3 gates initially and imo 3 gates is a really awkward number of gates to have when you go phoenix. It's not really enough to all-in with and you don't need all 3 to defend stuff. I always put up either a robo, 2 gates, or a nexus after my 2 gate phoenix opening. I can't think of a reason I would ever get a 3rd gate. Another small detail is that on average 2 gate defenses use fewer sentries than 1 gate defenses on average in my experience(probably around 1 fewer on average). When you're going phoenix especially, you want as much gas spent into phoenixes as possible. this is just incorrect. a 1 gate tech build can hold a 4 gate with a 2nd gate on 30 supply after starting to tech, supplying the 3rd sentry if need be. 2 gate builds that get the 2nd gate on 29 food before a tech structure can do the same. the only advantage a fast 2nd gate for quick 3 and/or 5 stalkers has over a 1gate build is the ability to poke with stalkers after 4gate is out of the question, as far as i can tell. using these 2 gates and getting a very fast 2nd gas for safety is inefficient and too passive if you are teching. puzzle vs parting demonstrated that, if nothing else.
I've never seen a 4 gate defense like the one you describe with just 2 gates, especially at the pro level, but I don't doubt it's possible. Ok then, some other things I've thought of. When you're 2 gate expanding, you want the map control that you gain from the initial 3 stalkers. 3 stalkers allows you to deny pokes from your opponent's either 2 or 3 stalkers, which is very important for a fast expand. I think by far 2 gate expand is the "safest" fast expand.
Also, I think it's good to ask what exactly is the advantage of going 1 gate tech into 2 gate versus 2 gate tech.
- The gas timings are very similar and the numbers of probes you get is similar.
- Both can transition into 4 gates, somewhat threatening the possibility of 4 gate. The 3 stalker rush build has a much harder time getting a pylon below the ramp in time, but if "4 gate is truly dead", then that shouldn't matter that much.
- Both builds also use the same number of chronoboosts initially(4) to defend 4 gate, although a 1 gate defense uses more if indeed a 4 gate is coming.
- The tech structure timing of both these builds is nearly identical. The 1 gate tech timing assuming the tech is either robo or twilight is around 4:43-4:45 while the 2 gate tech is around 4:45-4:50.
- You have on average ~1.5 fewer units with a 1 gate build versus a 2 gate build. One potential problem with this is that you will have to rely on shutting out with force field for a longer time instead of cutting with it. This could possibly lead to having to make 1 more sentry with the 1 gate build versus the 2 gate build.
In my eyes, these are all minor differences and which ever build you choose comes mostly to preference. One of these isn't definitively better than the other.
Also, Cecil, you're missing the 2nd assimilator in your "conservative" build.
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China6327 Posts
On January 22 2012 19:52 NrGmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2012 18:31 Alejandrisha wrote:On January 22 2012 17:57 NrGmonk wrote:On January 22 2012 17:16 Alejandrisha wrote:On January 22 2012 17:14 iamke55 wrote:On January 22 2012 16:57 Alejandrisha wrote:
the only time i've seen a 2nd gate at 18 or 19 supply in an opener that i've liked is what nani has been doing a bit at kiev. but I still don't understand what this second gate offers me that I can't already have with a 1 gate opener :/ 2 gate openings let you skip the zealot so you have fewer non-stalker units later on for blinking. Also I think 3 stalker openings have more map control early on so it's easier to poke around and scout a 1 gate FE. yep. the only time i'd condone a second gate on 19 (i don't condone a 2nd gate on 18 :p) is when you use the 3 stalkers somewhat aggressively. i hate the builds kr tosses do where they rush the 2nd gate and 2nd gas and use them defensively. sacrifice probe production, map control and early gw production for safety they could have off of a single gate One big advantage of 2 gate openings that you might be overlooking is that you can defend 4 gates with just those 2 gates. With 1 gate openings, you need to eventually go up to 3 gates for the possibility of 4 gate. 2 builds that this advantage would be beneficial for are 2 gate expand and 2 gate phoenix. With 2 gate expand, you're expanding as fast as possible without dying to 4 gate. 1 gate expand doesn't defend 4 gates. 3 gate expand is less greedy and imo less safe in the long run because of the later robo followup for obs and immortals. I personally prefer 2 gate phoenix over 1 gate phoenix as well. One reason is that I don't ever use 3 gates initially and imo 3 gates is a really awkward number of gates to have when you go phoenix. It's not really enough to all-in with and you don't need all 3 to defend stuff. I always put up either a robo, 2 gates, or a nexus after my 2 gate phoenix opening. I can't think of a reason I would ever get a 3rd gate. Another small detail is that on average 2 gate defenses use fewer sentries than 1 gate defenses on average in my experience(probably around 1 fewer on average). When you're going phoenix especially, you want as much gas spent into phoenixes as possible. this is just incorrect. a 1 gate tech build can hold a 4 gate with a 2nd gate on 30 supply after starting to tech, supplying the 3rd sentry if need be. 2 gate builds that get the 2nd gate on 29 food before a tech structure can do the same. the only advantage a fast 2nd gate for quick 3 and/or 5 stalkers has over a 1gate build is the ability to poke with stalkers after 4gate is out of the question, as far as i can tell. using these 2 gates and getting a very fast 2nd gas for safety is inefficient and too passive if you are teching. puzzle vs parting demonstrated that, if nothing else. I've never seen a 4 gate defense like the one you describe with just 2 gates, especially at the pro level, but I don't doubt it's possible. Ok then, some other things I've thought of. When you're 2 gate expanding, you want the map control that you gain from the initial 3 stalkers. 3 stalkers allows you to deny pokes from your opponent's either 2 or 3 stalkers, which is very important for a fast expand. I think by far 2 gate expand is the "safest" fast expand. Also, I think it's good to ask what exactly is the advantage of going 1 gate tech into 2 gate versus 2 gate tech. - The gas timings are very similar and the numbers of probes you get is similar.
- Both can transition into 4 gates, somewhat threatening the possibility of 4 gate. The 3 stalker rush build has a much harder time getting a pylon below the ramp in time, but if "4 gate is truly dead", then that shouldn't matter that much.
- Both builds also use the same number of chronoboosts initially(4) to defend 4 gate, although a 1 gate defense uses more if indeed a 4 gate is coming.
- The tech structure timing of both these builds is nearly identical. The 1 gate tech timing assuming the tech is either robo or twilight is around 4:43-4:45 while the 2 gate tech is around 4:45-4:50.
- You have on average ~1.5 fewer units with a 1 gate build versus a 2 gate build. One potential problem with this is that you will have to rely on shutting out with force field for a longer time instead of cutting with it. This could possibly lead to having to make 1 more sentry with the 1 gate build versus the 2 gate build.
In my eyes, these are all minor differences and which ever build you choose comes mostly to preference. One of these isn't definitively better than the other. Also, Cecil, you're missing the 2nd assimilator in your "conservative" build.
Feast defended HerO's 4 gate with the exact 1 gate into 2 gate tech build yesterday at IEM kiev.
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Overall I still think 2 gate builds are not really optimal as it delays the tech too much.
3 stalkers can be nice for some map scouting etc. but when I'm planning on tech I just want to get that tech up ASAP while still being safe and hiding it if possible. Just going for 1 quick stalker from 1 gate will do for this and I don't really see a need to get 2 gates early with a tech build. It's perfectly possible to defend 4 gates with 1 gate - tech- 2nd gate, especially with robo tech. With council or stargate it's harder but I don't recommend those techs if you think you're opponent plans to 4 gate.
Only with a blink play in mind do I like 2 gate openers as skipping the zealot is ofcourse a huge boon then. Still when I go for blink-robo I usually still go with just 1 gate and use a sentry because it feels safer to me that way but that might be entirely wrong. The sentry can be nice with blink play for some tricks but perhaps it is just better to skip it for that extra stalker.
3 stalker defense into 3 gate is awesome on tal-darim and other maps like it though. 3 gates are enough to support 22 mining probes so on maps where your opponent is almost certain to 4 gate defeding with 3 gates purely stalker is a great way to hold it off. The build is basically the same but instead of chronoing stalkers you just chrono warpgate tech. If you do it well you chrono warpgate tech 4 times from a 13 gate (so they are max 15 secs faster on their warpgate) and have 5 stalkers + 3 gates ready by the time warpgate finishes. Active stalker use should delay the pylon far enough that your 8 stalkers will do just fine against his potential 6 stalkers, 1 zealot.
Overall though I think 3 stalker defense has a couple flaws why it shouldn't be used too much:
- it delays the second assimilator and the following tech too much, in return for some map control. 1 gate builds can defend 4 gate just as well on most maps and just get up tech faster. They might require a sentry more to do so but they also gather the gas earlier so that isn't that troublesome.
- you're showing the opponent too much early on. When your opponent scouts the 2 gates and 3 chrono being used on nexus already plus a chrono on the stalker he can simply deduce too much imo. 4 gate is out of the window because of the chrono being spent on other stuff already, 1 gate expo is obviously not possible anymore either and very fast tech like a dt build isn't possible because of the lack of gas. Basically you're telling your opponent you intend to do 2 gate robo, blink or stargate. I think there are some builds which can specifically counter the 2 gate build on some maps.
- there is a huge window for the other to do a gas steal! Because you lack a zealot you can't take down the assimilator quickly and the second gate also makes a quick FE much harder. You could possibly do some robo build off 1 gas with an expo perhaps but expoing is still a gambling game in PvP that I don't like to do. Getting gas stolen without having a quick zealot is just really detrimental I think and if you're forced to use the stalker to kill the assimilator it gets even worse as you've lost your early map presence then.
@ monk don't you think the difference in tech timing is much bigger between 1 gate and 2 gate defense? With gate-robo-gate the robo is up MUCH faster then with gate-gate-robo really. This is basically because robo tech doesn't need a sentry that early because it's already quite decent at stopping 4 gates because of immortals. I think the difference is 20 seconds at least, which is quite big if you want to scout with an obs asap.
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This is amazing, I open with this a lot in PvP and I love the flexibility it gives you. This thread is really detailed and actually corrects several things I did wrong, like the chronos. Thanks you! ^^
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maybe this will make my toss switch more succesful
also lol at blue thread :>
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Thanks for the build! After I quit ~Season 1, I totally forgot how to PvP. I used to maintain a 60-70% w/r in high Diamond, but recently I've been going about 40.
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Changelog (oldest to newest descending):
> [ NEW ] Modified Stalker Control Section
> [ NEW ] Noted Assimilator in "Conservative" Build
> [ NEW ] Added replays from IEM Kiev
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have you made changes vs 4gate since we last met cecil? ^^
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Kudos Cecil, I was hoping you would update your rendition of Yongwha's Triple Stalker build, which was by far my favourite PvP opener. I really liked Naniwas aggressive version of this build, it nicely checks ridiculously greedy play, though it is, of course, quite a micro intensive strategy.
Lately though on the ladder, I've had some trouble with 1 gate robo players, who sit up their ramp until they have 3 immortals and then just make a death push. I find myself stretched a bit thin because I go for twilight robo, and seem to lack the requisite numbers. Should you get a robo at all if you have determined they are a dedicated robo player? In one of your games you push right up the ramp and snipe the first immortal, any advice on how to gauge the effectiveness of trading stalkers for immortals etc would be useful.
Also, in cases where they expo, I find blinking into the main rarely effective. Is it better to keep attacking the front to snipe the nexus i.e. how would you handle all inning early expos?
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I have 2 questions I would like to ask if they have not already been asked. If your not scouting until you put down your cybercore on a 4 player map, surely any 2gate zealot proxied in the middle of the map will just beat this? There will be 3 zealots in your mineral line before the second and third stalker are even out?
And, you give two variations of the build depending on what your opponent is doing, yet on 4 player maps unless you scout him straight away you won't actually know if he is straight up 4gating or if he is being greedy. Which means you will have to play the safer version, which if he manages to get his scouting probe in your base before you get yours in his, your second gas will be open for a gas steal as soon as he see's the 2 gates.
These are the two things that concern me most. How would you go about handling both situations?
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United States8476 Posts
On January 22 2012 21:54 Markwerf wrote:
Overall though I think 3 stalker defense has a couple flaws why it shouldn't be used too much:
- it delays the second assimilator and the following tech too much, in return for some map control. 1 gate builds can defend 4 gate just as well on most maps and just get up tech faster. They might require a sentry more to do so but they also gather the gas earlier so that isn't that troublesome.
Both builds get assimilator at pretty much the exact same time. On average, the 2 gate build gets an assimilator 50 minerals later than the 1 gate build. It's also possible to get assimlator before 2nd gate.
- you're showing the opponent too much early on. When your opponent scouts the 2 gates and 3 chrono being used on nexus already plus a chrono on the stalker he can simply deduce too much imo. 4 gate is out of the window because of the chrono being spent on other stuff already, 1 gate expo is obviously not possible anymore either and very fast tech like a dt build isn't possible because of the lack of gas. Basically you're telling your opponent you intend to do 2 gate robo, blink or stargate. I think there are some builds which can specifically counter the 2 gate build on some maps.
Who says you have to use 3 chronos on nexus? In fact, both this guide and I personally only use 2 chronos on nexus.
- there is a huge window for the other to do a gas steal! Because you lack a zealot you can't take down the assimilator quickly and the second gate also makes a quick FE much harder. You could possibly do some robo build off 1 gas with an expo perhaps but expoing is still a gambling game in PvP that I don't like to do. Getting gas stolen without having a quick zealot is just really detrimental I think and if you're forced to use the stalker to kill the assimilator it gets even worse as you've lost your early map presence then.
The 2 ways to prevent that are as follows: You can either get the gas before 2nd gate and not mine from the gas so fast or you can queue up a zealot beforehand. Also, some pros have said in commentaries that it's bad to gas steal, but I personally don't understand the reasoning behind that.
@ monk don't you think the difference in tech timing is much bigger between 1 gate and 2 gate defense? With gate-robo-gate the robo is up MUCH faster then with gate-gate-robo really. This is basically because robo tech doesn't need a sentry that early because it's already quite decent at stopping 4 gates because of immortals. I think the difference is 20 seconds at least, which is quite big if you want to scout with an obs asap.
If you follow this build for 1 gate and the build in this thread for 2 gate, 4:43-4:45 and 4:45-4:50 are what I tested the timings to be respectively. In retrospect though, I will admit that I tested the 2 gate build on xelnaga with good mineral stacking and I got the 1 gate timing off of a replay in Alej's thread that was on Antiga, so taking that into account, these numbers are fairly off. However, the exact difference between the tech building timings in these 2 builds should be slightly less than the time it takes for ~14 probes on minerals and 6 probes on gas to mine 175 minerals and 50 gas, so the real difference in timing should be around 14 seconds. I'll wanna test this more though.
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Interesting guide, will check out in greater detail after food!
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After watching Nani crushing Titan and WhiteRa @ IEM Kiev I got really interested in his PvP play style. After looking through the replays, he did the exact same build every game: 3 stalker opening into twillight. This allowed him to be the early game aggressor. Although he did not rely on this aggression to win, it did at least give him a lot of information. Vs Titan he actually kept the pressure up even though Titan built 4 gates (in fear probably)!
So from now on I'll play 3 stalker opening for most of my PvPs. It's a great way to get map control, put on some early pressure, and force your opponent to show his cards.
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On January 23 2012 07:42 Alejandrisha wrote:
have you made changes vs 4gate since we last met cecil? ^^
Yeah a little bit!
On January 23 2012 07:48 chestnutcc wrote:
Kudos Cecil, I was hoping you would update your rendition of Yongwha's Triple Stalker build, which was by far my favourite PvP opener. I really liked Naniwas aggressive version of this build, it nicely checks ridiculously greedy play, though it is, of course, quite a micro intensive strategy.
Lately though on the ladder, I've had some trouble with 1 gate robo players, who sit up their ramp until they have 3 immortals and then just make a death push. I find myself stretched a bit thin because I go for twilight robo, and seem to lack the requisite numbers. Should you get a robo at all if you have determined they are a dedicated robo player? In one of your games you push right up the ramp and snipe the first immortal, any advice on how to gauge the effectiveness of trading stalkers for immortals etc would be useful.
Also, in cases where they expo, I find blinking into the main rarely effective. Is it better to keep attacking the front to snipe the nexus i.e. how would you handle all inning early expos?
Yeah if you focus the Immortals and have good micro you can take out an Immortal army in some situations. A good situation is when Blink first finishes and you see he only has a single Immortal up his ramp. Another situation is against an Immortal Expand; wait for their Nexus to finish, then right when it does just attack their Natural and don't lose any Stalkers. If they do an annoying push, then Sentry/Stalker/Immortal is best, cut the Zealots and don't rely on getting a lot of Immortals, just get whatever out you can. Since he has no Blink he'll be at the mercy of your FFs, and you'll have defender's advantage. You should be able to easily expand and hold a push like this.
You can also Blink into his base the moment he leaves! You'll have major favor during a base trade.
On January 23 2012 07:58 Westy wrote:
I have 2 questions I would like to ask if they have not already been asked. If your not scouting until you put down your cybercore on a 4 player map, surely any 2gate zealot proxied in the middle of the map will just beat this? There will be 3 zealots in your mineral line before the second and third stalker are even out?
And, you give two variations of the build depending on what your opponent is doing, yet on 4 player maps unless you scout him straight away you won't actually know if he is straight up 4gating or if he is being greedy. Which means you will have to play the safer version, which if he manages to get his scouting probe in your base before you get yours in his, your second gas will be open for a gas steal as soon as he see's the 2 gates.
These are the two things that concern me most. How would you go about handling both situations?
2 Gate proxy in the middle of the map is extremely unlikely from most players. If you feel the probability of it happening is high then you can deviate. I however would probably just try my luck with Stalkers/Probe micro to hold.
If you look the variations are very close early on, the only real difference being the second Assimilator timing for a while. Also you don't have to play the safer version if there's no info gained for a while on a 4 player map, it just depends on how comfortable you are greeding. It's about how comfortable you are with greeding that determines what actions you take. However when it comes to a certain point, I don't usually greed anymore until I gain required info (i.e. first scout probe).
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thx for your input here monk. hope you don't mind me piggy backing off of you on some points :D
Both builds get assimilator at pretty much the exact same time. On average, the 2 gate build gets an assimilator 50 minerals later than the 1 gate build. It's also possible to get assimlator before 2nd gate.
This is true. I think it's important to note that when you get the 2nd gate and 2nd gas very quickly, you need to cut probes slightly. this is assuming you are going for those structures on 18 or 19 food. with this build, your 1st stalker can't start for sometime after your core finishes, which I have a big problem with.
Who says you have to use 3 chronos on nexus? In fact, both this guide and I personally only use 2 chronos on nexus.
I too find 3 chrono on Nexus silly, especially since your opponent will be hip to it if he scouts you before his first stalker is out. to me, this simply allows me to cut my sentry for the time being. even if he is 4gating me, i can still get it out in time as i realize it's happening and get additional sentries out in time if need be to hold it safely and with quick tech just the same. 3rd chrono on nexus seems silly to me in that regard. i'm capped on the pace of my buildings completing, not my income. and in most cases a probe cut at a certain point in pvp is very appropriate off of one base. no need to sprint to my ideal probe number for 25 nexus energy.
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On January 23 2012 08:26 NrGmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2012 21:54 Markwerf wrote:
Overall though I think 3 stalker defense has a couple flaws why it shouldn't be used too much:
- it delays the second assimilator and the following tech too much, in return for some map control. 1 gate builds can defend 4 gate just as well on most maps and just get up tech faster. They might require a sentry more to do so but they also gather the gas earlier so that isn't that troublesome. Both builds get assimilator at pretty much the exact same time. On average, the 2 gate build gets an assimilator 50 minerals later than the 1 gate build. It's also possible to get assimlator before 2nd gate. ye you can just go 2nd gate and then assimilator before the stalker but you'll be forced into a probe cut, so actually two gate builds have the second gas much later as you usually have to make the stalker before you can make the assimilator, or ofcourse do a probe cut and make the economic impact even worse. Late scouting could work to fix this problem but it's bad play to scout too later then 13 in PvP imo. You either need to check proxy and their base or check multiple spawning spots, stuff like an 11 gate you really need to know in time. Show nested quote +- you're showing the opponent too much early on. When your opponent scouts the 2 gates and 3 chrono being used on nexus already plus a chrono on the stalker he can simply deduce too much imo. 4 gate is out of the window because of the chrono being spent on other stuff already, 1 gate expo is obviously not possible anymore either and very fast tech like a dt build isn't possible because of the lack of gas. Basically you're telling your opponent you intend to do 2 gate robo, blink or stargate. I think there are some builds which can specifically counter the 2 gate build on some maps. Who says you have to use 3 chronos on nexus? In fact, both this guide and I personally only use 2 chronos on nexus. Ok that can work I guess but I have a huge preference for three chrono on nexus in PvP because I basically go double gas always. The third chrono is worth more then 50 minerals in that case, a waste not to use imo. Only build i'll just chrono nexus twice with is a (fake) 4 gate. Show nested quote +- there is a huge window for the other to do a gas steal! Because you lack a zealot you can't take down the assimilator quickly and the second gate also makes a quick FE much harder. You could possibly do some robo build off 1 gas with an expo perhaps but expoing is still a gambling game in PvP that I don't like to do. Getting gas stolen without having a quick zealot is just really detrimental I think and if you're forced to use the stalker to kill the assimilator it gets even worse as you've lost your early map presence then. The 2 ways to prevent that are as follows: You can either get the gas before 2nd gate and not mine from the gas so fast or you can queue up a zealot beforehand. Also, some pros have said in commentaries that it's bad to gas steal, but I personally don't understand the reasoning behind that.
I have always assumed there is some way to gain ahead against gas steal, perhaps the koreans know this and thus not do it. Perhaps some sort expo build. Personally I hate getting gas stolen though as it forces me into 4 gate or expo I feel both of which i'm not comfortable with especially since the opponent usually knows you're up to this. I'd be interested to know what this counter to gas steal is, it must probably be an expansion build but I haven't found one that is completely safe against a gas stealer with 2 gas maybe a 1 gate expo into 3 gate robo or something? Or perhaps with use of a forge?Show nested quote +@ monk don't you think the difference in tech timing is much bigger between 1 gate and 2 gate defense? With gate-robo-gate the robo is up MUCH faster then with gate-gate-robo really. This is basically because robo tech doesn't need a sentry that early because it's already quite decent at stopping 4 gates because of immortals. I think the difference is 20 seconds at least, which is quite big if you want to scout with an obs asap. If you follow this build for 1 gate and the build in this thread for 2 gate, 4:43-4:45 and 4:45-4:50 are what I tested the timings to be respectively. In retrospect though, I will admit that I tested the 2 gate build on xelnaga with good mineral stacking and I got the 1 gate timing off of a replay in Alej's thread that was on Antiga, so taking that into account, these numbers are fairly off. However, the exact difference between the tech building timings in these 2 builds should be slightly less than the time it takes for ~14 probes on minerals and 6 probes on gas to mine 175 minerals and 50 gas, so the real difference in timing should be around 14 seconds. I'll wanna test this more though. Ye ok with those builds the difference is not so big, but those are quite slow for teching (overly safe imo, especially for robo tech). In my testing the difference for the tech is as big as 30 seconds, (I tend t get robo around 4:20-4:25). Calculating the timing difference from the difference in costs spent till that point gives you a MINIMUM amount of time difference really as at least 2 gate build spends 175m 50g more before the tech then 1 gate. 1 gate build however can get the robo before the 2nd stalker without interruption so the difference becomes 300minerals then, or roughly 30 seconds. Calculating it from this is very rough though as there are so many tiny differences like diferent gas intake, different use of chrono etc.
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hey hey just one question : In some cast in the past i heard that it is better to let 2 probes on each geyser mine gas instead of a 3:1 ratio , but i really dont know if thats the case and even if this statement is true i dont know how much benefit it would get.
as always a good read and sooo much quality talk too 
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On January 23 2012 09:16 FederigoEU wrote:hey hey just one question : In some cast in the past i heard that it is better to let 2 probes on each geyser mine gas instead of a 3:1 ratio , but i really dont know if thats the case and even if this statement is true i dont know how much benefit it would get. as always a good read and sooo much quality talk too
Dunno, try it out. It can't hurt
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United States8476 Posts
On January 23 2012 09:11 Markwerf wrote:
ye you can just go 2nd gate and then assimilator before the stalker but you'll be forced into a probe cut, so actually two gate builds have the second gas much later as you usually have to make the stalker before you can make the assimilator, or ofcourse do a probe cut and make the economic impact even worse. Late scouting could work to fix this problem but it's bad play to scout too later then 13 in PvP imo. You either need to check proxy and their base or check multiple spawning spots, stuff like an 11 gate you really need to know in time.
Don't see why you have to probe cut or why you have to get a stalker before assimilator.
Ok that can work I guess but I have a huge preference for three chrono on nexus in PvP because I basically go double gas always. The third chrono is worth more then 50 minerals in that case, a waste not to use imo. Only build i'll just chrono nexus twice with is a (fake) 4 gate.
You can do almost identical aggression builds if you spend 3 chronos on your nexus with both 1 gate and 2 gate. Most of these aggressions aren't very good.
Ye ok with those builds the difference is not so big, but those are quite slow for teching (overly safe imo, especially for robo tech). In my testing the difference for the tech is as big as 30 seconds, (I tend t get robo around 4:20-4:25). Calculating the timing difference from the difference in costs spent till that point gives you a MINIMUM amount of time difference really as at least 2 gate build spends 175m 50g more before the tech then 1 gate. 1 gate build however can get the robo before the 2nd stalker without interruption so the difference becomes 300minerals then, or roughly 30 seconds. Calculating it from this is very rough though as there are so many tiny differences like diferent gas intake, different use of chrono etc.
Ok, there might be some robo builds that can hold with earlier robo, but it doesn't work for any other tech building. There are also a lot of disadvantages to those builds, such as almost being forced to make immortals and lack of early game map control due to lack of stalkers. I'd have to see a specific robo build to comment more.
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On January 23 2012 09:18 CecilSunkure wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2012 09:16 FederigoEU wrote:hey hey just one question : In some cast in the past i heard that it is better to let 2 probes on each geyser mine gas instead of a 3:1 ratio , but i really dont know if thats the case and even if this statement is true i dont know how much benefit it would get. as always a good read and sooo much quality talk too Dunno, try it out. It can't hurt
Came in to mention this, found it, glad others are paying attention! It is true that on many geyser setups, it's better to mine 2&2, not 3&1. This is because on some geysers (like a perfect corner geyser, which are fairly rare in maps these days), 3 probes is actually slightly oversaturated.
I often do 2&2 when I make a second assimilator to match theirs but I don't want to put all 6 probes out of mineral income. It probably makes a small difference... xD
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On January 22 2012 17:14 iamke55 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2012 16:57 Alejandrisha wrote:
the only time i've seen a 2nd gate at 18 or 19 supply in an opener that i've liked is what nani has been doing a bit at kiev. but I still don't understand what this second gate offers me that I can't already have with a 1 gate opener :/ scout a 1 gate FE.
wait what >< whats a 1gate FE in PvP? That exists?? I've never seen it before, could you link a tournament game (or just reference and I'll try to look for it) where this has been done?
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On January 23 2012 16:37 Forbidden17 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2012 17:14 iamke55 wrote:On January 22 2012 16:57 Alejandrisha wrote:
the only time i've seen a 2nd gate at 18 or 19 supply in an opener that i've liked is what nani has been doing a bit at kiev. but I still don't understand what this second gate offers me that I can't already have with a 1 gate opener :/ scout a 1 gate FE. wait what >< whats a 1gate FE in PvP? That exists?? I've never seen it before, could you link a tournament game (or just reference and I'll try to look for it) where this has been done?
I've done it. I do 1 Gate DT FE sometimes lol.
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On January 23 2012 16:42 CecilSunkure wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2012 16:37 Forbidden17 wrote:On January 22 2012 17:14 iamke55 wrote:On January 22 2012 16:57 Alejandrisha wrote:
the only time i've seen a 2nd gate at 18 or 19 supply in an opener that i've liked is what nani has been doing a bit at kiev. but I still don't understand what this second gate offers me that I can't already have with a 1 gate opener :/ scout a 1 gate FE. wait what >< whats a 1gate FE in PvP? That exists?? I've never seen it before, could you link a tournament game (or just reference and I'll try to look for it) where this has been done? I've done it. I do 1 Gate DT FE sometimes lol.
I'm guessing there's a specific circumstance you can get away with this though? Aren't you completely dead vs. blink obs play?
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On January 23 2012 16:48 Forbidden17 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2012 16:42 CecilSunkure wrote:On January 23 2012 16:37 Forbidden17 wrote:On January 22 2012 17:14 iamke55 wrote:On January 22 2012 16:57 Alejandrisha wrote:
the only time i've seen a 2nd gate at 18 or 19 supply in an opener that i've liked is what nani has been doing a bit at kiev. but I still don't understand what this second gate offers me that I can't already have with a 1 gate opener :/ scout a 1 gate FE. wait what >< whats a 1gate FE in PvP? That exists?? I've never seen it before, could you link a tournament game (or just reference and I'll try to look for it) where this has been done? I've done it. I do 1 Gate DT FE sometimes lol. I'm guessing there's a specific circumstance you can get away with this though? Aren't you completely dead vs. blink obs play?
Blink obs comes too late on most maps to really kill a 1gate expo that doesn't get a lot of probes if the nexus is scouted with an observer. 400 minerals into nexus + the added income of mining 16 mineral patches. Vs the 200/100 (and obs) + 300/300 for blink.
The problem is you cannot break or avoid forcefields. A dt expo allows you up and down your ramp and gives you a degree of map control.
If the blink players plays well you can exploit the small army and lack of mobility with blink and forcefields. But I wouldnt say the expanding players is dead.
A dedicated blink rush with 23 workers should kill the nexus though.
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I am loving all this strategy discussion 
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One thing to consider with 2 early Gas is to pull one Probe from the "saturated" Geysire and put it to the single on at the other. 2/2 gathers slightly more gas than 3/1 (at least on most maps).
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On January 23 2012 16:48 Forbidden17 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2012 16:42 CecilSunkure wrote:On January 23 2012 16:37 Forbidden17 wrote:On January 22 2012 17:14 iamke55 wrote:On January 22 2012 16:57 Alejandrisha wrote:
the only time i've seen a 2nd gate at 18 or 19 supply in an opener that i've liked is what nani has been doing a bit at kiev. but I still don't understand what this second gate offers me that I can't already have with a 1 gate opener :/ scout a 1 gate FE. wait what >< whats a 1gate FE in PvP? That exists?? I've never seen it before, could you link a tournament game (or just reference and I'll try to look for it) where this has been done? I've done it. I do 1 Gate DT FE sometimes lol. I'm guessing there's a specific circumstance you can get away with this though? Aren't you completely dead vs. blink obs play?
There's actually a replay of a DT FE against Blink/Obs. Albiet neither of us played it out best we could, but still a decent replay.
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thanks a lot man I'm starting to like pvp more and more as more builds become viable.
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i think you forgot
Pylon (3)
in the Conservative part :p
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On January 24 2012 06:45 pein01 wrote:
i think you forgot
Pylon (3)
in the Conservative part :p
Thank you! Updated.
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Absolutely delightful read. Thanks a ton for the contribution!!! :D :D :D :D
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On January 24 2012 09:05 Day[9] wrote:
Absolutely delightful read. Thanks a ton for the contribution!!! :D :D :D :D
Hi Day9! No thank you for your contributions! <3
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Is it correct to say that these 2gate openings are safer from cheese (e.g. proxy gates, cannon rush) in general since you get 2 gates earlier than other builds that start with 1 gate and transition into 3 gates afterwards?
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On January 24 2012 09:05 Day[9] wrote:
Absolutely delightful read. Thanks a ton for the contribution!!! :D :D :D :D
Totally unrelated comment to this thread, just have to say I am a fan of your work Day[9]
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During the mid-game there are three tech structures to choose; Stargate; Twilight Council; Robotics Facility. I like to use all three! No not all three at once
You most certainly can! Protoss 1/1/1 hard counters Terran 1/1/1!
Anyways, bookmarked, will read when I'm not drowned with work.
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Thanks Cecil, I got a new pvp opener ;d
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Can someone please give the supply for each of the steps if possible please, is not listed on the build order thanks in advance
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On January 25 2012 05:37 nichan wrote:
Can someone please give the supply for each of the steps if possible please, is not listed on the build order thanks in advance
I didn't put them up intentionally -you shouldn't need them!
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As a Gold level Protoss I'm a tad intimidated by this build. Do you think I should continue learning it or go with something simpler? If so any suggestion's on a build maybe one of your own?
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On January 25 2012 12:54 Trippy wrote:
As a Gold level Protoss I'm a tad intimidated by this build. Do you think I should continue learning it or go with something simpler? If so any suggestion's on a build maybe one of your own?
if you're not confident that you can identify and then hold early 3g or 4g pressure with this, then i suggest using 3+ gate builds until you are, if you are playing 100% to win. doing this will help you improve on scouting and knowing what your thinnest defense can be, however.
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My pvp sucks so badly im Diamond and PvT and Pvz is much better. Now i understand the matchup abit more and i Will definatly try this things out. Thanks!!
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Will try this out as I struggle to get better. It seems advanced enough to leave a lowleague with somewhat better mechanics after being used for a while. Many thanks! =)
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On January 25 2012 20:27 Hermanoid wrote:
Will try this out as I struggle to get better. It seems advanced enough to leave a lowleague with somewhat better mechanics after being used for a while. Many thanks! =)
Definitely, that's a spectacular way to think about it!
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Thank you. I had a build order from Artosis' website and I've been using it a lot, but I really like the additional commentary on the build and the situations you'll end up in.
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With the Naniwa 2gate stalker aggression, how do you know when you'll want to commit to an attack before blink is done? It seems like Naniwa gets pretty aggressive, but Im unsure how he knows to do this.
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On January 27 2012 04:01 Chelch wrote:
With the Naniwa 2gate stalker aggression, how do you know when you'll want to commit to an attack before blink is done? It seems like Naniwa gets pretty aggressive, but Im unsure how he knows to do this.
Not exactly sure. I'll have to watch how he plays some more, which I don't have time to do right now! I will definitely try to share that knowledge if I can.
For now watch the replay from his point of view, and take into account what his opponents did in the beforehand games as well. Try to see what he sees and connect the dots from there. If all else fails, just mimic what he does depending on what he sees; often times mimicry without an understanding yields an understanding.
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On January 28 2012 02:03 CecilSunkure wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2012 04:01 Chelch wrote:
With the Naniwa 2gate stalker aggression, how do you know when you'll want to commit to an attack before blink is done? It seems like Naniwa gets pretty aggressive, but Im unsure how he knows to do this. Not exactly sure. I'll have to watch how he plays some more, which I don't have time to do right now! I will definitely try to share that knowledge if I can. For now watch the replay from his point of view, and take into account what his opponents did in the beforehand games as well. Try to see what he sees and connect the dots from there. If all else fails, just mimic what he does depending on what he sees; often times mimicry without an understanding yields an understanding.
only if it's nani mind u
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Thanks for the great guide! I'm loving this style from Naniwa. It's so smart!
I humbly submit a replay of my own:
http://drop.sc/99847
Admittedly I'm only a terrible Platinum player so I made a lot of mistake, but I think I did decently.
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Meine Wiedergarbe
A couple takeaways:
1) It looks like he mistook my building on the low ground for a fast expand. Useful metagame against those who don't send follow-up scouts.
2) Early Phoenix very nicely supplement the 3 Stalkers. At that point in the game, there are so few units that lifting anything cripples your opponent.
3) The transition from Stalkers to Phoenix to Immortals to Colossi is weirdly smooth. Toss in a Sentry when you can and Chargelots and the ROFL-stompage is beautiful. It's like a yummy tossed salad of dead Protoss.
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Anyone have any replays of 2 colossus all in with this build by any chance?
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On January 24 2012 06:59 CecilSunkure wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2012 06:45 pein01 wrote:
i think you forgot
Pylon (3)
in the Conservative part :p Thank you! Updated.
I think it's in the wrong place. Doing the build as written doesn't work and gets supply blocked. Unless I'm supposed to cut probes, I think it's wrong?
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On January 29 2012 15:35 Xaeldaren wrote:Thanks for the great guide! I'm loving this style from Naniwa. It's so smart! I humbly submit a replay of my own: http://drop.sc/99847Admittedly I'm only a terrible Platinum player so I made a lot of mistake, but I think I did decently.
Hey! I thought you did pretty well. I was laughing pretty loudly this morning watching it before class. Girlfriend gave me weird looks for laughing at a replay, haha. Your opponent was just so pissed lol.
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^LMAO
I was seeing alot of discussion between the 1 gate and 2 gate FE. Alot of what I have been doing is 1 gate open with 3 stalkers and immediately drop a robo. Then 2 additional gates. I think that with the 2 gate, it just allows for you to get the 3 stalkers alot faster, and thus the nexus alot faster.
I may be completely wrong. Forgive and correct me if I am. Is is okay for me to post a replay?
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In general when is it best to get your 2nd tech structure (robo then citadel, or citadel then robo) ?
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On February 13 2012 01:39 Strivers wrote:
In general when is it best to get your 2nd tech structure (robo then citadel, or citadel then robo) ?
Whichever you like. I usually see Twilight first so that Blink can be researched faster, since the Obs from the Robo can get out pretty fast.
On February 13 2012 00:55 HexSCII wrote:
^LMAO
I was seeing alot of discussion between the 1 gate and 2 gate FE. Alot of what I have been doing is 1 gate open with 3 stalkers and immediately drop a robo. Then 2 additional gates. I think that with the 2 gate, it just allows for you to get the 3 stalkers alot faster, and thus the nexus alot faster.
I may be completely wrong. Forgive and correct me if I am. Is is okay for me to post a replay?
Yeah go ahead!
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AFAIK you get more gas/time when you have 4 Probes on gas by having 2 on each geyer, rather than 3 on one and 1 on the other due to the 3rd Probe on gas being slightly not as efficient as the previous two (similar to probes on minerals).
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This is awesome, I was using Apollos 3 stalker rush build until now, this looks awesome! To yabot!
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ok here is my replay. It is a 1gate 3stalker rather than a 2gate 3 stalker. I wasnt that active with the stalkers mainly because I sorta knew there might be a probe coming. I should have poked though. Also i forgot to put probes on gas which resulted in a slightly delayed robo. Robo usually goes down on when the second stalker is being built. After that it was basically a 2 immortal aggression to expand to collies. I am a silver level player so forgive my play.
http://sc2rep.com/replays/(P)Harvorax_vs_(P)Hex/17986
I will also post a replay of a 2gate 3 stalker when i get the chance.
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On February 13 2012 06:37 ODKStevez wrote:
This is awesome, I was using Apollos 3 stalker rush build until now, this looks awesome! To yabot!
This is correct and at some point a while back (like a year ago) I did test this in some locations that had a gas that mined slower than normal (I cant recall tbh which they were but it was due to positional imbalance) and regardless of positional considerations it is always better when allocating 4 workers between 2 gas to give each 2. You get a significant (I want to say it was 3 or more trips extra gas every 2 minutes or something like that) increase in gas mining this way.
Those tests WERE done with terran units/buildings.
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Hey Cecil, great guide as always. My question comes up about one of your suggested followups, the two colossus all in. I really like this build but my problem always arises when my opponent makes phoenixes. It just feels like an auto-loss because I've already committed to colossi before scouting the phoenixes, so his army becomes incredibly cost effective against mine. Is there something you can do to avoid this or is this just one of the risks you take when going 2 colossus allin? Thanks!
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On February 26 2012 07:21 Indrium wrote:Hey Cecil, great guide as always. My question comes up about one of your suggested followups, the two colossus all in. I really like this build but my problem always arises when my opponent makes phoenixes. It just feels like an auto-loss because I've already committed to colossi before scouting the phoenixes, so his army becomes incredibly cost effective against mine. Is there something you can do to avoid this or is this just one of the risks you take when going 2 colossus allin? Thanks!
Against pheonix, I've never done a 2 Colo allin. I would try to just get more stalkers and delay the push slightly to allow for more Stalkers. If he's on one base, I might even just expand and stay back.
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Firstly cheers to Cecil for amazing build. Just a couple of questions:
-In 1st build, you get Pylon 3, pause probes (around 24) and get Stalker 2&3 before resuming. What about the conservative build? It lists Stalkers 2&3 before Pylon 3; does Probe production pause at 22 then (resuming after pylon 3 finishes?) As is I don't see how 2nd build works.
-I tried this build and sadly lost 2 Stalkers up opponents ramp (ff & zealots). How best to poke without losing them? Or is scouting his natural sufficient until an Obs?
-If opponent is not 4 gating but doing their own 1 base Collo all in, what is the best counter after 3 Stalker opening (assume you already went Robo for obs).
Thanks all.
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read the guide, thought it was excellent. saw it was by CecilSunkure, now i know why its excellent. As always Cecil your guide is fantastic. Btw I've been doing a 3 stalker opening into robo with a delayed stargate to get about 5 phoenix for harass then transition into colossi or chargelot archon (with or without expand depending on what seems appropriate).
I tried finding a way to transition into immortal carrier after the 5 phoenix but unless i have an upgrade lead it's just really hard to make carriers work  :{ :[
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On April 09 2012 09:46 Treyus wrote:read the guide, thought it was excellent. saw it was by CecilSunkure, now i know why its excellent. As always Cecil your guide is fantastic. Btw I've been doing a 3 stalker opening into robo with a delayed stargate to get about 5 phoenix for harass then transition into colossi or chargelot archon (with or without expand depending on what seems appropriate). I tried finding a way to transition into immortal carrier after the 5 phoenix but unless i have an upgrade lead it's just really hard to make carriers work :{ :[
carriers are bad you say? well isn't that unfortunate
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I use the greedy variant of your build, and I was wondering when is a safe time to grab an expo if you open with SG tech. Oftentimes after opening with 3 stalker (scouting a lack of 4gate) I can grab an expo at around 30 supply slightly before WG tech completes, and before SG completes (which I do). Then poking with my stalkers (making sure not to lose them) I warp in another 2 stalkers (it delays my first phoenix slightly), and then just take map control with my stalkers. I mostly have done this against 1 basing robo, but I'm not sure how solid what I'm doing is. I think I might be winning just because my opponents aren't good enough to punish it.
Here's my replay, can you look for any gaping flaws within it (despite the fact that I win)? Thanks.
http://drop.sc/160776
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I have switched to opening 3-Stalker every PvP, and for the most part I'm having a lot of success. However, I'm finding it very difficult to defend against the 11-gate 3-gate push where they show up with two Probes, because it's nearly impossible to snipe the Probes fast enough to stop a pylon (or several) from going down.
What is the correct response to scouting an 11-gate with lots of CB energy when you're going this build?
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On May 14 2012 18:47 AmericanUmlaut wrote:
I have switched to opening 3-Stalker every PvP, and for the most part I'm having a lot of success. However, I'm finding it very difficult to defend against the 11-gate 3-gate push where they show up with two Probes, because it's nearly impossible to snipe the Probes fast enough to stop a pylon (or several) from going down.
What is the correct response to scouting an 11-gate with lots of CB energy when you're going this build?
Against the most agressive versions you may have to pull 6-8 probes to help kill the pylons as fast as possible. Snipping the ennemy probe(s) is still highest priority though.
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If you opt for the robo as your next tech structure, is it better to get an immortal or obs out first, and should they be chronoboosted?
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On July 07 2012 14:25 Wyrd wrote:
If you opt for the robo as your next tech structure, is it better to get an immortal or obs out first, and should they be chronoboosted?
If you don't know what he's doing 100% then you chrono an obs and send it straight to his base, then make an immortal and while it is making hold position all your units on your ramp. Then react to what you scout.
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hi
for the conservative build, the pylon(3) come to late?
you have probably to stop at 20 probes...
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So, I noticed this discussion about the second assimilator stopped a while ago, but does anyone else prefer to delay the second assim until after starting the first stalker and WG? I haven't noticed it impacting my gas intake for the upcoming pair of stalkers or for any followup tech (tried robo into 2 colo as well as stargate).
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On July 13 2012 04:06 yazoo wrote:
hi
for the conservative build, the pylon(3) come to late?
you have probably to stop at 20 probes...
There's a probe cut at 22 (when your first stalker is on its way, you stop at 22 so that you can get the next 2 stalkers and build the pylon when you have the money.) Can't be bothered to go check the original post, but I'm pretty sure that's mentioned in all the 3 stalker opens.
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Thanks for writing up such a comprehensive yet concise guide, cecil.
I have a question regarding scouting on 4-player maps. You state in your guide that if you are sure that a proxy 2Gate is unlikely to happen, then you can delay the scout as long as before the Cybernetics Core comes up. However, if you do so, it's really hard to reach the enemy base in time before you have to choose between the 'greedy' and 'safe' variant of the build. By the time you reach his base and determine whether or not your opponent is attempting to 4Gate, you would already have branched into one of the two builds.
If there is a method to prevent this problem, or if I am simply incorrect, please tell me! I really like this guide and I intend to utilize it until I become more than comfortable with it.
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I like to do a variation on this aswell, i get the 3 fast stalker as you did, but i never really scout for anything but their position on the map, i follow the 3 stalker with 2 sentries and get ready to defend any 4 gate aggresion. If it doesnt come in standard timing i just expand, add a robo another gate, 2 more sentries, start cronoboosting immortals from the robo.
I find this variation of the build very solid, the hardest things to defend is delayed 4 gate(which doesnt happend), 1 base blink no robo, 3 gate phoenix allin. But everything is possible to defend i belive.
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On July 19 2012 16:16 vizi wrote:
Thanks for writing up such a comprehensive yet concise guide, cecil.
I have a question regarding scouting on 4-player maps. You state in your guide that if you are sure that a proxy 2Gate is unlikely to happen, then you can delay the scout as long as before the Cybernetics Core comes up. However, if you do so, it's really hard to reach the enemy base in time before you have to choose between the 'greedy' and 'safe' variant of the build. By the time you reach his base and determine whether or not your opponent is attempting to 4Gate, you would already have branched into one of the two builds.
If there is a method to prevent this problem, or if I am simply incorrect, please tell me! I really like this guide and I intend to utilize it until I become more than comfortable with it.
Yeah, it's pretty simple actually!
You can play greedy with your opening in you sneak in an extra probe, mine Vespene a bit faster, but still get 3 Stalkers with the 2nd and 3rd Chronoboosted. However, just before you lay down your tech structure (before third Gateway) order a Zealot and a Sentry. This will allow you to have a Zealot, one Sentry and three Stalkers in the event the opponent tries to play an aggresive opening. You will also have two more units to warp in directly behind these, all the while constructing your tech. I win a lot of PvP matches like this, and my most recent stream VOD should display this multiple times.
If you feel safe, you can cancel the Sentry and or Zealot and tech even harder (100% refund of resources).
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On July 20 2012 14:47 CecilSunkure wrote:
Yeah, it's pretty simple actually!
You can play greedy with your opening in you sneak in an extra probe, mine Vespene a bit faster, but still get 3 Stalkers with the 2nd and 3rd Chronoboosted. However, just before you lay down your tech structure (before third Gateway) order a Zealot and a Sentry. This will allow you to have a Zealot, one Sentry and three Stalkers in the event the opponent tries to play an aggresive opening. You will also have two more units to warp in directly behind these, all the while constructing your tech. I win a lot of PvP matches like this, and my most recent stream VOD should display this multiple times.
If you feel safe, you can cancel the Sentry and or Zealot and tech even harder (100% refund of resources).
Cecil, do you think it's too late to go into an Immortal expand if I get out a Zealot and Sentry? Actually, do you think an Immortal Expand is even possible with this opening? It's kind of what I've been doing and I don't know whether or not it's a good opening for it.
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Italy12246 Posts
I think it's definitely doable; you can always get your immortal after your nexus has gone down. One of the strengths of a 3stalker opening is that you can get away with a pretty fast nexus while keeping your opponent in the dark about it for quite a long time, since you will be the one with map control.
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On July 20 2012 17:40 vizi wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2012 14:47 CecilSunkure wrote:
Yeah, it's pretty simple actually!
You can play greedy with your opening in you sneak in an extra probe, mine Vespene a bit faster, but still get 3 Stalkers with the 2nd and 3rd Chronoboosted. However, just before you lay down your tech structure (before third Gateway) order a Zealot and a Sentry. This will allow you to have a Zealot, one Sentry and three Stalkers in the event the opponent tries to play an aggresive opening. You will also have two more units to warp in directly behind these, all the while constructing your tech. I win a lot of PvP matches like this, and my most recent stream VOD should display this multiple times.
If you feel safe, you can cancel the Sentry and or Zealot and tech even harder (100% refund of resources). Cecil, do you think it's too late to go into an Immortal expand if I get out a Zealot and Sentry? Actually, do you think an Immortal Expand is even possible with this opening? It's kind of what I've been doing and I don't know whether or not it's a good opening for it.
Yeah it's doable but not optimal anymore. It'd be better in my opinion to come up with some sort of 2 Gate Robo, where you go Gate Robo Gate and get out a couple Zealots, an Immortal, and a Sentry. This instead of the 3 Stalker expand will let you take a quicker Nexus, I feel, if you want to Immortal Expand.
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EPT
