EPT[G] ZvP, A Comprehensive Guide - Page 5
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KroN
Germany438 Posts
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kawaiiryuko
United States368 Posts
Thanks so much! | ||
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HungShark
United States134 Posts
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Mjolnir
912 Posts
On December 30 2011 22:34 ShinyGerbil wrote: 1.1 Opening Build Order 9 Overlord 12 Spawning pool 16 Queen [constant inject] 18 Make 2 Extractors, 4 Zerglings, Cancel 1 Extractor 19 Overlord 19 Hatchery 22 Zergling Speed, pull 3 off gas 22 Overlord 26 Queen [first tumor in main, then tumors in natural] 31 Overlord *At 30 supply make a drone and overlord in your main to decrease the larva count there to 2 31 Queen [constant inject in natural 36 Put 3 back on gas ! Fuck me. I love this build. It has saved my ass from so much cheese since I started using it, and it punishes greedy play incredibly well. Thanks for the guide. My ZvP has improved dramatically just from this build. | ||
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ShinyGerbil
Canada519 Posts
On December 31 2011 07:38 nanoscorp wrote: Thanks for the detailed guide. I found the sections on protoss timings and scouting info "if he has this, he can't have this, etc." very helpful. I like how you think about stacking ranged units for safety and concentrated fire too. I have a few questions for you since it sounds like you're comfortable with lategame ZvP: What's your favorite or most reliable way of cracking a protoss 3rd or later base with a solid wall up front and a decent amount of static D? Say you scout something like 3 gateways with a couple cannons behind them, covering a wide choke like on TDA or Shattered temple. What kind of force would you take to counterattack that, or would you even consider it? What's your overall plan in terms of army movement when you get broodlords on the field? Their lack of mobility can make it frustrating to play against a P opponent with good multitasking. Force an engagement? Try to pick off units with fungal and efficient trades? Why no mention of NP? I've seen NP'd motherships turn battles around. It seems like a good fit for your lategame infestor/brood composition. Voidrays, Archons and Immortals make good targets too, if you can set up a buffer zone of broodlings, ITs or roaches. Thanks again! Once P defends his bases like this, it no longer becomes a good idea to pressure those areas *until* the Protoss physically moves out for a push. I like to use 6-10 roaches and most if not all of my lings for this pressure. The roaches are necessary to break down the wall, and zerglings are so mobile that there's no reason not to support the pressure with them, as you can always safely bring them back to your main army whenever necessary. When you break down the wall you might not want to run through with all zerglings however, as that can leave them in a vulnerable position to get cornered. Again this question leads to adjusting for the perfect composition. You want a lot of broodlords vs largely colossus based [and thus immobile] armies, and more infestors and ground units vs mobile armies. It happens to work out nicely that standard zerg "counters" to protoss units tend to match them as well in mobility. Because of this, forcing an engagement isn't particularly necessary, just focus on making as good of a composition you can and attacking once you've hit that point. NP can be an excellent tool and I use it every once in a while, however I don't like getting it too early because it can be very unstable in a battle, as it can leave infestors in vulnerable positions. Fragile tools like these make me uneasy, and I personally like to avoid them if I can. Absolutely once you're at the infinite money stage, there's no reason not to get it. On December 31 2011 11:34 kcdc wrote: Good guide. You talked in some detail about how to beat the colossus/stalker/archon/mothership deathball, but do you think you could add some discussion about dealing with the carrier/mothership/archon/stormer deathball? The latter deathball is much harder for Protoss to build, but it's also much stronger, and it's the one that leads Zerg players to cry imbalance. I don't know if many Zerg players have much experience against it, and as a Protoss player, the lack of experience definitely shows as Zerg players regularly use bad responses like staying on maxed out infestor/broodlord or transitioning to hydras. Extremely late game air compositions can be devastating for Zerg. The issue as always is getting there. I feel like if as Zerg I am attacking every 3-4 minutes with a maxed army, I should recognize your transition to air and get corruptors on the field before you have a critical mass of carriers. You as a protoss player can make it work, but it just becomes another aspect of battles, trying to sustain your carrier/archon count while I try to whittle it down. On December 31 2011 13:16 Amaterasu1234 wrote: Mmmm, I've a question that has to do with FFE, the section that I totally understand is under construction and you may not have an answer for right now: A lot of tosses, when they open Forge FE, enjoy chronoing 3-6 zealots then subsequently send them to my 3rd that I drop at ~30-36, and, with 4+ zealots, they usually take it out if I don't have roaches in time. Now, I've found that dropping a roach warren around the same time has my hatch will usually leave me with roaches to defend...but it totally destroy my drone count. Do you have any thoughts on this or solutions of your own? --------------- Also, vs warp prism harass, how many roaches should I leave back at home to deal with a crap ton of chargelots? In general, my understanding is that lings and maybe spines are the best way to deal with +0 zealots, but if you see +1 being researched you need roaches to defend his pressure. Delaying roaches until +1 finishes is the best way to maximize your drone count in this situation, in my opinion. Warp prism harass is a difficult topic and I haven't covered it very extensively in my guide, because it tends to be very chaotic and is still largely unexplored in the PvZ metagame. In general I think the amount of roaches should never be more than 6, as you can use them to kite zealots very effectively while reinforcing from elsewhere. Late game however you will want to replace the roaches with static defense, so it doesn't cut into your army supply. On January 01 2012 01:18 mumpfel wrote: It is really helpful to watch the replays, because you really do what you have written in your guide every single game. I have two questions though: 1.) Your Buildorder vs 1GateExpand says that you want to get the Roach Warren after Lair at around 52 supply. I have watched three of your replays against 1GateExpand so far and you always got your Roach Warren before Lair at around 40 Supply. I know that it is not a big difference, but i am curious if there is a reason for this ;-) 2.) Is there a maximum number of drones for you? In the replays i have watched so far you had less drones than other zerg players get, i do not think that you ever hit 80 drones. You're right! Even after a year my build is still evolving, I only recently decided that the roach warren has never been necessary when I get it at 44 supply vs 1 gate expand, so I could swap it for an evolution chamber for a slightly earlier +1. Drone count is a difficult subject to talk about because it's very hard to see the effects of it in the late game. In general I don't pay too much attention to it and keep my drones between 60 and 80, but I like to get closer to 80 particularly in the midgame, so I can then make static defense a few minutes later to get my drone count back down with a net resource gain. On January 03 2012 13:16 catid wrote: Do you think your lategame plan of being aggressive with RoachLingInfestor works on Tal'Darim Alter? I've had trouble there where a Protoss goes up to 3 base and it feels really hard to put any kind of pressure on him due to the way the map is built. Then he rolls out with a Stalker/Colossus army before I've got up to Broodlords (while I'm sitting on 3k+ minerals) and I'm just streaming 5-6 hatches' worth of roachling into him and getting crushed. Is adding a ton of spine crawlers a good idea to deal with this? I've had decent results with that but I feel better protosses would just take a 4th or switch to warp prism harass or do something to circumvent the spines. Thanks for the guide too! It still works! I don't know if I emphasized it enough but you really don't need to do significant damage to make your confrontations worthwhile. Regardless of terrain you can almost always get a nice fungal on sentries or colossus snipes in your initial engagement, which is enough to feel confident later on. Also on TDA in particular I like to engage the 3rd while doing a ling runby into the main, it can be nice. Spine crawlers are a good idea if you're banking minerals and need time to transition, for sure. But from your question it seems like you're not relying enough on infestors and corruptors in that stage of the game, to get excellent dps onto their ground army and keep their colossi vulnerable. Thanks again to everyone, I can't stress enough how much I appreciate the kind words  | ||
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i3ubbles
United States41 Posts
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Poelie
Netherlands53 Posts
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RemrafGrez
United States180 Posts
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Admiral Adama
United States186 Posts
Awesome guide Gerbil, keep it up and I hope we get to see you in some more tournies! | ||
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phzbox
Cape Verde38 Posts
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Foks
United States71 Posts
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NaumNaumers2
4 Posts
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Olsson
Sweden931 Posts
Also spreading out units vs a vortex sure but isnt there a better way? I mean terran doesn't spread out his marines against mutas just because theres a few banelings nearby, that way marines can get picked off one at a time by mutas. | ||
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ApocAlypsE007
Israel1007 Posts
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BinxyBrown
United States230 Posts
I am thinking 11 overpool might still be better, even with the same gas timing, I will have to test out both of them though. | ||
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BinxyBrown
United States230 Posts
On January 11 2012 23:42 Olsson wrote: What if you get this deathball with brood lords that you're speaking off and the protoss army just ignores yours and runs past yours since your army is so immobile. He could probably take out half of your income at minimum and larvae and stop you from remaxing. Also spreading out units vs a vortex sure but isnt there a better way? I mean terran doesn't spread out his marines against mutas just because theres a few banelings nearby, that way marines can get picked off one at a time by mutas. If you get a brood heavy army it's because he has a collosus heavy army and he can't be more mobile than you by a significant amount, maybe with mothership recall but even then you can counter when his army moves out if you maintain good vision and stop his army from killing anything using proper infestor and broodlord movement. As far as vortex is concerened there isn't a better way, to make enough corruptors to snipe it leaves you really vulnerable to blink stalker plays that do ignore your corruptor army, the best thing to do is to surround the vortex with infested terrans after it goes down and fungal the army that is there, make sure you have a good number of infestors if they have a mothership. Spine/Spore walls with some extra queens and good creep spread can give you a good anchor for the late game where a mothership would be a large concern. | ||
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LosZergs
United States100 Posts
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IstgG
Australia52 Posts
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brotosterone
United States260 Posts
I tried looking, but I'm not sure if you had this in there. When do you put down your first evolution chamber vs a FFE? | ||
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Grippe87
Sweden59 Posts
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