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Masters game.
All in type: warp prism stalker, immortal, sentry, zealot 1 base.
Cliffs: Tal'Darim, I 11 pool + early hatch. I drone up, scout aggression, attempt to posture up but not fast enough.
Replay: http://replayfu.com/r/Xd8Gwf
Full version:
At around 9:00 a warp prism tips me off to some sort of aggression. I get start putting up spines and make roaches / lings. By the time the all-in hits my base its already too late.
Now the obvious response would be 'you should have scouted earlier'. I agree. However, I don't think my course of action would have changed drastically since I did not feel I over droned.
I asked my opponent his pvz win rate after the game and he mentioned its well over 80% with that single strategy.
I can see how immortal efficiency combined with force fields makes the t1 - 1.5 unit counters worthless (lings / roaches / spines).
Obviously this is a very common all-in, so there must be a known answer, I was wondering if anyone was willing to share it?
Thanks.
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Couple points, mainly on your game sense and decisions.
1. No FFE on Tal'Darim is instantly suspicious. Toss is not playing for late game if he chooses not to FFE.
2. No expansion for ever. You need to constantly scout when Toss expands if its not FFE. Alarms slowly go off starting with no expo at 5:45. By 8:00 no expo, its instantly an all in.
3. You were building a spire while the attack was happening. There is NO reason to need a spire. 3 Queens and units will take care of Prism.
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given 1 and 2, what would have been the correct unit composition?
For 3, I needed spire to deal with immortals.
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scout more
User was banned for this post.
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On December 13 2011 12:24 Zed03 wrote:
given 1 and 2, what would have been the correct unit composition?
For 3, I needed spire to deal with immortals.
You needed to just make Roach/Ling but mostly Lings. Then attack his army from 2-3 angles.
After 8 Minutes, with no expand, you just need to scout and pump non-stop units.
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I have never been on the receiving side of this but I would recommend trying to engage his army before he reaches your base for a easier surround. (I do not claim that this will help you much if at all because I do not play zerg...)
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In your case, you should've gotten infestors if he was going to one base hero. Ranged colawlsus are out of the question unless he's getting just zealots so you should be fine. Mutas was the wrong choice imo
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3 Step Program
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1 ) Scout his base -> If he hasn't expanded by 6:00-6:30, you know something is up.
2) Make an appropriate number of drones on 2-base, for a 1-base immortal allin, this tends to be around 30.
3) Make Queens / Lings / Spines with minerals and grab a fast +1 melee with the evo you should have gotten around 6:00 to protect from Dts.
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^^ 2 posts above is going to get nuked.....
Honestly you could do at lot of cool things to slow down his push. Keep lings outside his natural, when he moves out, backstab to keep him close to his base, or at least he will have to warp into his main so he doesn't lose all his probes.
I don't know why more Z's dont make literally 10 spines if you see an allin coming. Yeah you lose the drones but if you don't die, you remake them in one round.
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On December 13 2011 12:57 HyperionDreamer wrote:
^^ 2 posts above is going to get nuked.....
Honestly you could do at lot of cool things to slow down his push. Keep lings outside his natural, when he moves out, backstab to keep him close to his base, or at least he will have to warp into his main so he doesn't lose all his probes.
I don't know why more Z's dont make literally 10 spines if you see an allin coming. Yeah you lose the drones but if you don't die, you remake them in one round.
People don't normally float 1,000 minerals at the 8 minute mark. Also immortals make them incredibly cost inefficient. They also take a full minute to build, unlike say a bunker which takes 30 seconds.
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http://www.sc2replayed.com/replay-videos/16193
I just lost to this all in and i did everything right. This build seems stupidly effective. He was careful with his warp prism and never engaged in bad positions, had perfect force fields to prevent my roaches from hitting anything while his range 6 immortals ate them alive, and his zealots destroyed all my lings. Maybe I could have kept my queens alive to kill the warp prism but again, he was dodgy with it. Spine crawlers might be useful, but immortals would tear through those as well. The timing was so close that I'm not sure I could have afforded spines either. Any comments on the replay?
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watching now...
edit:
Wow ok - that was the exact build done against me.
Your scouting was great and you did everything suggest in this thread text book (cut drones at 30, extra queens, spores for DTs).
Your enemy didn't even forcefield your ramp - if he did that I think there would be 0 chance of your coming back.
The only mistake really was not pulling your roaches back when he force fielded the first time behind your natural. Maybe waiting for them to expire, then re-running in with lings would have been better.
I'm eager to hear an answer / see a replay of this being countered.
Out of curiosity I looked through Catz' replays and he has 2 where the answer was hydras, but thats only because he was able to delay an extra ~2 mins with lings.
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I was floating some money near the end but thats cuz i lost my queens and natural.. you might say i shouldnt have teched lair but i had no other way to spend my money. I could have thrown up a ton of spines at the end... that probably would have been better. But i feel like I shouldnt get in that situation in the first place.
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more spinecrawlers would help a ton
tal-darim is pretty much FFE or all-in for Protoss. pure ling would work decently against this, make sure that you deal with the warp prism though (Stephano uses all of his queens to snipe the warp prism on his stream). keeping small group of roaches/lings hidden near his front door would help too, for counterattacks or for delay (somebody mightve said this already i only skimmed the other posts)
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On December 13 2011 12:54 ThomasHobbes wrote:
3 Step Program
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1 ) Scout his base -> If he hasn't expanded by 6:00-6:30, you know something is up.
2) Make an appropriate number of drones on 2-base, for a 1-base immortal allin, this tends to be around 30.
3) Make Queens / Lings / Spines with minerals and grab a fast +1 melee with the evo you should have gotten around 6:00 to protect from Dts.
This, Make sure you have ALOT of lings, if u know for sure this is coming probebly a 3 hatchery 3 queens 36 drones mining minerals mass lings should hardcounter this
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I've beaten this kind of all in before using ling/baneling. So basically use baneling to kill and/or weaken the zealots and speedling for cleanup. I think if you have great micro you can also counter this strat with roach/ling as long as you can control the roaches to kite the zealots without getting hit by immortals, but yeah.. roach/ling vs this strat is terribly difficult, not to mention that he will have enough zealots to effectively counter roaches by 9 mins.
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On December 13 2011 13:52 lingling wrote:
I've beaten this kind of all in before using ling/baneling. So basically use baneling to kill and/or weaken the zealots and speedling for cleanup. I think if you have great micro you can also counter this strat with roach/ling as long as you can control the roaches to kite the zealots without getting hit by immortals, but yeah.. roach/ling vs this strat is terribly difficult, not to mention that he will have enough zealots to effectively counter roaches by 9 mins.
Baneling vs P? o_o
Do you drop the nest when you scout the all-in? How do you deal with force fields?
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@saus feel free to drone a heck of a lot harder if you know an all-in is coming, you want to ensure you have a big enough lead in case he kills a couple drones or does damage with his attack. Now with that many drones you can feel comfortable making tons of spines, like 7 would have stopped his push. If you plan to make roaches only put two workers in gas, but I prefer getting +1 lings with tons of spines and a spore or two.
Especially with scouting the robo facility you should know it's gonna be a later all-in or a weaker one (relative to four gate since he can't afford four gates AND a robo). If you see a robo, getting a fourth queen is really nice both to target down that warp prism and to transfuse your spine crawler forest.
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Guys, despite the crazy sounding of Bling, ling bling is incredibly cost efficient against zealot/immortal centric army. So instead of roach ling queen spine, mass ling bling with queen would work much better IMO.
And yes, Bling vs P is 100% viable.
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@toiefranceNA, the banelings will never hit a good player, it's viable, but not against sentry and immortal! 10 banelings to take the sheilds alone off of immortals
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You note that this is a common all-in. Are you familiar with this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=290798
While the OP of this linked thread is teaching us toss how to do the build (I haven't tried it yet), there is quite a bit of discussion from Zerg about how to hold it.
Pages 8 and 10 of the thread includes some discussion on mass ling vs queens/spines/lings vs hydras.
Here's one response from Kardrion:
"I ran into this on ladder yesterday (mid-master zerg) and I easily held it off without scouting anything. After six minutes I instantly assume either DTs or Voids and so I get an evo and roach warren, and a single spore plus 4 roaches and tech to lair while still droning and making queens, since the cure to one-base harass is heavily droning, and other one-base timings generally are too slow (e.g. one base colossus) or too weak (4-gate). At around 7:30 I'm close to saturated, and scout the warp prism. Pump out a round of 12 speedlings and chase the warp prism around with two queens, roaches and lings, while getting four gas, immediately dropping a spire, and with the next 100 gas after beginning +1 melee. Scouting still no expand behind warp prism, it's a clear one-base all-in, so I pump nothing but speedlings until spire finishes and make a round of mutas which pop just about as the push is hitting the front door (~10min). The guy who was attacking messed up the execution so I was able to snipe the prism and deny reinforcments, which made holding it off far easier, but generally my principle was to engage with lings and delay, forcing FFs, and then pull out until i can get through and focus the stalkers with lings. Ultimately, only the immortals were left alive and the mutas could clean them up with impunity. It seemed like if the harass had done any damage it could've been dangerous, but as it was I was free to saturate two bases and then could simply outproduce a one-base toss. Now knowing that this build exists, I feel like I could be more aggressive scouting and cut a couple corners.
I'm sure it's much more powerful if better executed, but I'm wondering how you deal with an earlier lair timing and quick 2-base saturation, since the prism harass is fairly easy to hold off without taking any damage (I even overmade lings because I had never seen it before, but was saturated on two-base before the push came), and it seems like the slightly delayed immortal stalker timing loses to muta ling queen if the muta timing comes before the main engage (never mind its clear advantage in a base-race scenario). What do you do about a muta timing that lines up with your push?"
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On December 13 2011 13:57 Zed03 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 13:52 lingling wrote:
I've beaten this kind of all in before using ling/baneling. So basically use baneling to kill and/or weaken the zealots and speedling for cleanup. I think if you have great micro you can also counter this strat with roach/ling as long as you can control the roaches to kite the zealots without getting hit by immortals, but yeah.. roach/ling vs this strat is terribly difficult, not to mention that he will have enough zealots to effectively counter roaches by 9 mins. Baneling vs P? o_o Do you drop the nest when you scout the all-in? How do you deal with force fields?
most zergs use banelings nowadays, i don't see a problem with it if the pros use it.
...well if protoss is going stalker, warp prism, immortal, his sentry count is going to be pretty low. obviously you dont send out the banelings immediately, bait ffs using zerglings. then, when all the energy is used up, target down the zealots and stalkers with banelings. use the zerglings/drones for immortals
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On December 13 2011 12:15 Kajarn wrote:
Couple points, mainly on your game sense and decisions.
1. No FFE on Tal'Darim is instantly suspicious. Toss is not playing for late game if he chooses not to FFE.
May I disagree with this? Not too long ago FFE wasn't even known. It's a new trend and not 100 %widely adopted among the protoss community. A lot of safer variations are around now that the metagame is catching up to FFE.
I completely agree with your other 2 points though.
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ling bling is a good counter. you jsut need to have better control that Protoss army of standard zealot sentry immortal, but you will be ok. better than if you go roach ling
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On December 13 2011 16:36 kaluro wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 12:15 Kajarn wrote:
Couple points, mainly on your game sense and decisions.
1. No FFE on Tal'Darim is instantly suspicious. Toss is not playing for late game if he chooses not to FFE.
May I disagree with this? Not too long ago FFE wasn't even known. It's a new trend and not 100 %widely adopted among the protoss community. A lot of safer variations are around now that the metagame is catching up to FFE. I completely agree with your other 2 points though.
recently protosses have been going completely haywire about FFE or 1gate FE on this map because of the blockable choke and the ability to take a (relatively) easy third, but i agree that not 100% players use it. However, if by the 7-8 minute mark he still hasnt expoed, its reasonable to expect some sort of all-in. because by then zerg eco will be so far ahead if protoss hasnt gone for an expo. a 9min protoss expo just isnt viable anymore with the current metagame.
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i lost to this same crap even though i've seen it coming and the guy doing it was absolutely trash, though i think my mistake was trying to tech to lair, had i stayed with roach-ling-queen i think i would have won, just having good creepsread and having a few queens against the warprism and for transfues could have worked.
Also, probably rushing to hydra beats this, but that loses to absolutely everything else, so i wouldnt suggest that
On December 13 2011 16:36 kaluro wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 12:15 Kajarn wrote:
Couple points, mainly on your game sense and decisions.
1. No FFE on Tal'Darim is instantly suspicious. Toss is not playing for late game if he chooses not to FFE.
May I disagree with this? Not too long ago FFE wasn't even known. It's a new trend and not 100 %widely adopted among the protoss community. A lot of safer variations are around now that the metagame is catching up to FFE. I completely agree with your other 2 points though.
it's been around since beta, it is the standard opener on most maps for over a half year
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@SC2Ditto Have you minded P can pick immortal to Warp Prism?
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Actually FFE has been around since 2008, it was even used in Brood War...
Also, about lingbling: You can use it to defend zealot-heavy early game aggression. Generally dropping a bling next in the early game is a solid choice, since they can deflect most pre-8min aggression, and they're useful in the midgame as well if you tech to drops (you can destroy most 2base all ins with pure roach ling bling if controlled correctly).
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If your talking about the 1 base 4 gate immortal + prism + gate units, if you can scout it go for mass speedling, into hydras. Once you have a nice bunch of hydras you can probably kill him, let alone hold off his push. It amazes me when protoss go for this build, iv never lost to it and its pretty pathetic imo.
If his nexus isn't down by 7 minutes at the utter latest, make zerglings and spines + teching to hydras is generally a good idea imo. Everything he can do before 9 mins on 1 base you should be able to hold with zerglings, everything later the hydras should clean up.
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On December 13 2011 17:34 Iksf wrote:
If your talking about the 1 base 4 gate immortal + prism + gate units, if you can scout it go for mass speedling, into hydras. Once you have a nice bunch of hydras you can probably kill him, let alone hold off his push. It amazes me when protoss go for this build, iv never lost to it and its pretty pathetic imo.
theres a reason why most protosses don't do this anymore. hydras are just so good on creep against gateway units.
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On December 13 2011 17:36 aviator116 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 17:34 Iksf wrote:
If your talking about the 1 base 4 gate immortal + prism + gate units, if you can scout it go for mass speedling, into hydras. Once you have a nice bunch of hydras you can probably kill him, let alone hold off his push. It amazes me when protoss go for this build, iv never lost to it and its pretty pathetic imo. theres a reason why most protosses don't do this anymore. hydras are just so good on creep against gateway units.
Maybe on US it is less popular but on EU it is still a pretty common all in. I face this more than 4 gate at the moment anyway.
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Is this the build that is being done to you: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=290798 ?
If so, the appropriate response is essentially to stop droning at 30, and make ONLY speedlings. If your opponent is still on one base after 7 minutes, you are VERY ahead at 30 drones, and the only things he can do to you can be dealt with speedlings no doubt. Also, as mentioned in that thread, quick hydras are a complete counter to any 1 base robo all-ins. Other than DTs, after 7 minutes, the only thing your opponent could be doing could be countered by hydras and/or speedlings.
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As long as you get a macro hatchery instead of a fast third, in your main, and get an evolution chamber with +1 melee when he is still on one base after a gateway opening ( dt's hit around 7 minutes so you need an evo then anyway ) you can easily hold it. The infrastructure allows you to build queens the second you spot the warp prism since there really is only that Lobber build that is strong with a 1 base warp prism play.
As long as you inject well, put down some spinecrawlers and keep track of when he moves out, it's a piece of cake to hold. There's a replay in one of my replies in that thread by Lobber that holds it off really nicely.
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I dislike the roach talk that has been going on in this thread. Roaches are hard countered by immortals (ie. the main component of this allin), are generally not strong early game (with exception to breaking an enemy sim-city), and are cost-inefficient when compared with lings.
Not only are speedlings great for map control, but they're by far the easiest way to hold this allin. Queens and Spines (I prefer 4-5 in front of my base and 2 in my main if I know this allin is coming) provide the static defense / AA needed while your lings clean up the rest.
If you respond correctly I don't see this allin as being particularly challenging, for my part I find it much harder to hold a regular 4-gate.
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On December 13 2011 12:15 Kajarn wrote:
Couple points, mainly on your game sense and decisions.
1. No FFE on Tal'Darim is instantly suspicious. Toss is not playing for late game if he chooses not to FFE.
2. No expansion for ever. You need to constantly scout when Toss expands if its not FFE. Alarms slowly go off starting with no expo at 5:45. By 8:00 no expo, its instantly an all in.
3. You were building a spire while the attack was happening. There is NO reason to need a spire. 3 Queens and units will take care of Prism.
I watched the replay and came in here to post almost exactly this. No FFE on Tal'Darim was already strange (but still could be 1 gate expand), no expo by at latest 6:30 (3 gate sentry expand goes down a little before this, late 4 gates hit around now) is very indicative of a crazy 1 base all-in, nothing by 8:00 might as well be hanging out a sign saying "I'm all in".
You started 3 more geysers and a third at ~8:15 having seen the warp prism and no expand, and another 8 drones at just after 9 minutes, as well as continuing to mine gas you weren't going to be able to use in time. It appeared your macro slipped a tiny bit too (unspent larva). Had all those resources been put into +1 lings, you would have crushed him.
The spire was a bad call but I guess that can be chalked up to getting flustered in game.
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As others have said, by far the biggest problem in the OP replay was scouting. All you knew was where your opponent was located, and, as it was on its way to your base, that he had a warp prism. You were already gearing up to take your 3rd and 4th hatch.
You didn't know if he was on one base or 3. Take one of those early lings and poke around his base! You don't need to kill the rocks at your 3rd *that* early.
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As much as people want to call the 7 pool ( 2 drone extractor trick) for 12/10 supply cheesey, or a 9 pool, i'm a strong beliver for it on this map. It allows you to take really fast map control and apply horras pressure on the toss to prevent not only FFE's but also slow down 1 base all-ins like this. Plus while your are applying pressure or doing damage witht he 6 lings you can usally get up to 18 drones very quickly and safely take your nat.
Not to mention even if you can do a massive amount of damage don't loose your lings and keep at least 2 running around the base till stockers force them out. The toss won't expose his tech choice till the lings are dead which means it slows down the timings of 1 base all in's a TON.
Some don't like this approach because they find it cheesey or sets them to far behind if no damage is done, but I feel the added aggression stops A LOT of the all-in timming attacks and I can more easily attapt to standard play. Plus most of the time if to much damage is done, most protoss will feel they have to all in as they are far behind and you can easily prepare for it. There is no better position to be in then when you know you are forcing your oppentent to go down a particular route.
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if you scout a guy going robo or even see him with a warp prism, you should throw down your spines in each of your base and go for mutas as quick as possible. also get melee/carapace upgrade and go mass lings in the meantime. Every time he pushes out and gets near your natural, have a shit ton of units right behind his army to cut off reinforcements and threaten backstabs. He will either move around to try to kill the army or the base. Once the mutas are out, kill off the warp prism and start harrasing while putting up more spines. this way he can never really trade bases with you.
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i did not watch the replay since theres like a billion of these threads but i think i can give some advice.
Most protoss players will fast expand vs zerg, and i think 6 minutes is the latest timing for an expansion if you do a 3gate/4gate opener into an expansion, these openers are most used agaisnt terran but you never know on ladder.
If your opponent does not have started a nexus at 6 minuteish mark, expect a allin. normally its a gatewayish type allin, but since immortal buff, 3gaterobo allin has become more common. at this point in the game you really do not have that many tech options, so the counter is spinecrawlers (like 4-5 or more, if more time goes the bigger the allin is gonna be) and lots of speedlings. When he attacks surround his zealots at your spines, and as soon as they are dead its quite easy to kill the rest. (since stalkers and immortals are very bad vs slings, however sentrys should not be underestimated)
another tip i can give is to leave a single ling outside his base to know when he moves out.
also remeber to check if he takes the gold or something gimicky like that, its so annoying to think that an allin is coming, and then he just has 4 bases suddenly.
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This all in is as surprising as any all in if you've never seen it before, due to the popularity of roaches in ZvP. Most good players would lose next to nothing from the prism harass if you have 3-4 queens and OL spread, but then the usual transition is getting Lair and +1 range, and making roaches to deal with all in. Except that the all in destroys even up to 30 roaches with good micro.
Mass ling with +1 melee and a few roaches, attack from multiple angles, and you win every time as long as you kept droning during prism harass. The all in doesn't hit until ~ 10 min mark, you can easily have full saturation and a macro hatch, and even spines if you think you need them.
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I lost to this a few days ago. The player cannon rushed me and we ended up even after it, then he cannoned his main and went into this, which I scouted. I made roach/ling and died despite nearly winning a base trade that came down to one pylon. That pretty much relied on him not having a sentry/not FFing, so I don't recommend relying on a counter attack. Hydralisks definitely seemed to be the correct counter and I recommend trying them if the same build comes up against you again.
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Right just saw the replay
Be active with your lings. Leave one on each tower and one at/outside his natural. If you had seen the army move initially you would of prepared better.
I know there was pressure but if you could bind all you hatches together your unit production would have been much stronger (6 more larva to play with). I would also consider getting at least one queen at one. That army would have been smashed by speed lings.
Think about it, with a ling spotting the move out, send lings to surround sentys and collosus, if he uses ff, back away and repeat. He is then using all his energy to stay alive, by the time he hits your base there will be no forcefields, build mostly lings and use excess gas to get infestors.
Believe it or not you could see this push coming at one stage when you scouted the warp prism, a warp prism on one base (alhtough on Taldarim you should use lings to scout ninja bases) tells you something. It tells you he is planning a really weak gate army warp in, or he is teching to a really really weak collosus push or he is going for an immortal play. In fact that prism makes no sense to me, it costs a lot and a probe + pylon would do the same job but better (maybe squeezing another immortal out). But the point is you knew there was robo tech which means the attack is immortals or a really weakened and delayed 4 gate or a one base collosus. You know?
Everyone here is telling you about the no expansion by toss. Well its really good advice, 4 bases against one base protoss is bad. The way you expand against potoss is:
a) when he is expanding
B)you just crushed his army.
Just saturate two bases and make a shit ton of units rally to centre of map, 2 extra hatchs are essentially 24 extra lings, or 6 spines. When your up one base just max out an attack in the open, he can't remax cause he needs to expand or there wont be minerals left.
As for what army comp: Lings would be fine (with map awarness) and Hydra's would shut him down totally (thats why its always worth investing in the HydraDen, if an attack is coming with collosus don't make hydras, but no collosus get upgrade and spam H). I don't like the spire switch, if your going ling muta, don't make roaches unless you have to (and get mellee upgrade) otherwise invest in infestors (always good) and upgrade range attack (Again if you see no collosus you can add a pinch of hydra for seasoning).
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EPT
