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Masters game.
All in type: warp prism stalker, immortal, sentry, zealot 1 base.
Cliffs: Tal'Darim, I 11 pool + early hatch. I drone up, scout aggression, attempt to posture up but not fast enough.
Replay: http://replayfu.com/r/Xd8Gwf
Full version:
At around 9:00 a warp prism tips me off to some sort of aggression. I get start putting up spines and make roaches / lings. By the time the all-in hits my base its already too late.
Now the obvious response would be 'you should have scouted earlier'. I agree. However, I don't think my course of action would have changed drastically since I did not feel I over droned.
I asked my opponent his pvz win rate after the game and he mentioned its well over 80% with that single strategy.
I can see how immortal efficiency combined with force fields makes the t1 - 1.5 unit counters worthless (lings / roaches / spines).
Obviously this is a very common all-in, so there must be a known answer, I was wondering if anyone was willing to share it?
Thanks.
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Couple points, mainly on your game sense and decisions.
1. No FFE on Tal'Darim is instantly suspicious. Toss is not playing for late game if he chooses not to FFE.
2. No expansion for ever. You need to constantly scout when Toss expands if its not FFE. Alarms slowly go off starting with no expo at 5:45. By 8:00 no expo, its instantly an all in.
3. You were building a spire while the attack was happening. There is NO reason to need a spire. 3 Queens and units will take care of Prism.
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given 1 and 2, what would have been the correct unit composition?
For 3, I needed spire to deal with immortals.
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scout more
User was banned for this post.
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On December 13 2011 12:24 Zed03 wrote:
given 1 and 2, what would have been the correct unit composition?
For 3, I needed spire to deal with immortals.
You needed to just make Roach/Ling but mostly Lings. Then attack his army from 2-3 angles.
After 8 Minutes, with no expand, you just need to scout and pump non-stop units.
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I have never been on the receiving side of this but I would recommend trying to engage his army before he reaches your base for a easier surround. (I do not claim that this will help you much if at all because I do not play zerg...)
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In your case, you should've gotten infestors if he was going to one base hero. Ranged colawlsus are out of the question unless he's getting just zealots so you should be fine. Mutas was the wrong choice imo
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3 Step Program
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1 ) Scout his base -> If he hasn't expanded by 6:00-6:30, you know something is up.
2) Make an appropriate number of drones on 2-base, for a 1-base immortal allin, this tends to be around 30.
3) Make Queens / Lings / Spines with minerals and grab a fast +1 melee with the evo you should have gotten around 6:00 to protect from Dts.
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^^ 2 posts above is going to get nuked.....
Honestly you could do at lot of cool things to slow down his push. Keep lings outside his natural, when he moves out, backstab to keep him close to his base, or at least he will have to warp into his main so he doesn't lose all his probes.
I don't know why more Z's dont make literally 10 spines if you see an allin coming. Yeah you lose the drones but if you don't die, you remake them in one round.
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On December 13 2011 12:57 HyperionDreamer wrote:
^^ 2 posts above is going to get nuked.....
Honestly you could do at lot of cool things to slow down his push. Keep lings outside his natural, when he moves out, backstab to keep him close to his base, or at least he will have to warp into his main so he doesn't lose all his probes.
I don't know why more Z's dont make literally 10 spines if you see an allin coming. Yeah you lose the drones but if you don't die, you remake them in one round.
People don't normally float 1,000 minerals at the 8 minute mark. Also immortals make them incredibly cost inefficient. They also take a full minute to build, unlike say a bunker which takes 30 seconds.
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http://www.sc2replayed.com/replay-videos/16193
I just lost to this all in and i did everything right. This build seems stupidly effective. He was careful with his warp prism and never engaged in bad positions, had perfect force fields to prevent my roaches from hitting anything while his range 6 immortals ate them alive, and his zealots destroyed all my lings. Maybe I could have kept my queens alive to kill the warp prism but again, he was dodgy with it. Spine crawlers might be useful, but immortals would tear through those as well. The timing was so close that I'm not sure I could have afforded spines either. Any comments on the replay?
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watching now...
edit:
Wow ok - that was the exact build done against me.
Your scouting was great and you did everything suggest in this thread text book (cut drones at 30, extra queens, spores for DTs).
Your enemy didn't even forcefield your ramp - if he did that I think there would be 0 chance of your coming back.
The only mistake really was not pulling your roaches back when he force fielded the first time behind your natural. Maybe waiting for them to expire, then re-running in with lings would have been better.
I'm eager to hear an answer / see a replay of this being countered.
Out of curiosity I looked through Catz' replays and he has 2 where the answer was hydras, but thats only because he was able to delay an extra ~2 mins with lings.
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I was floating some money near the end but thats cuz i lost my queens and natural.. you might say i shouldnt have teched lair but i had no other way to spend my money. I could have thrown up a ton of spines at the end... that probably would have been better. But i feel like I shouldnt get in that situation in the first place.
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more spinecrawlers would help a ton
tal-darim is pretty much FFE or all-in for Protoss. pure ling would work decently against this, make sure that you deal with the warp prism though (Stephano uses all of his queens to snipe the warp prism on his stream). keeping small group of roaches/lings hidden near his front door would help too, for counterattacks or for delay (somebody mightve said this already i only skimmed the other posts)
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On December 13 2011 12:54 ThomasHobbes wrote:
3 Step Program
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1 ) Scout his base -> If he hasn't expanded by 6:00-6:30, you know something is up.
2) Make an appropriate number of drones on 2-base, for a 1-base immortal allin, this tends to be around 30.
3) Make Queens / Lings / Spines with minerals and grab a fast +1 melee with the evo you should have gotten around 6:00 to protect from Dts.
This, Make sure you have ALOT of lings, if u know for sure this is coming probebly a 3 hatchery 3 queens 36 drones mining minerals mass lings should hardcounter this
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I've beaten this kind of all in before using ling/baneling. So basically use baneling to kill and/or weaken the zealots and speedling for cleanup. I think if you have great micro you can also counter this strat with roach/ling as long as you can control the roaches to kite the zealots without getting hit by immortals, but yeah.. roach/ling vs this strat is terribly difficult, not to mention that he will have enough zealots to effectively counter roaches by 9 mins.
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On December 13 2011 13:52 lingling wrote:
I've beaten this kind of all in before using ling/baneling. So basically use baneling to kill and/or weaken the zealots and speedling for cleanup. I think if you have great micro you can also counter this strat with roach/ling as long as you can control the roaches to kite the zealots without getting hit by immortals, but yeah.. roach/ling vs this strat is terribly difficult, not to mention that he will have enough zealots to effectively counter roaches by 9 mins.
Baneling vs P? o_o
Do you drop the nest when you scout the all-in? How do you deal with force fields?
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@saus feel free to drone a heck of a lot harder if you know an all-in is coming, you want to ensure you have a big enough lead in case he kills a couple drones or does damage with his attack. Now with that many drones you can feel comfortable making tons of spines, like 7 would have stopped his push. If you plan to make roaches only put two workers in gas, but I prefer getting +1 lings with tons of spines and a spore or two.
Especially with scouting the robo facility you should know it's gonna be a later all-in or a weaker one (relative to four gate since he can't afford four gates AND a robo). If you see a robo, getting a fourth queen is really nice both to target down that warp prism and to transfuse your spine crawler forest.
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Guys, despite the crazy sounding of Bling, ling bling is incredibly cost efficient against zealot/immortal centric army. So instead of roach ling queen spine, mass ling bling with queen would work much better IMO.
And yes, Bling vs P is 100% viable.
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@toiefranceNA, the banelings will never hit a good player, it's viable, but not against sentry and immortal! 10 banelings to take the sheilds alone off of immortals
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EPT
