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Oversaturation and long distance mining - Page 2

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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stokes17
Profile Joined January 2011
United States1411 Posts
November 30 2011 02:27 GMT
#21
On November 30 2011 02:22 Imbaman wrote:
I have noticed that most pros produce more workers than their bases can support. While I understand that it is to transfer when another base is done, I have three questions.

1) Why is it better to produce workers before the CC/Nexus/Hatch instead of cutting workers, building the building, then restart making workers?

2) Why is it better to oversaturate rather than long distance mine? From what I understand, having more than 17-18 workers on minerals give less minerals than having those excess long distance mine.

3) Why is it better to split the workers evenly instead of just transferring the excess (above 16-18) and rallying new workers to the new base?

Any advise would be appreciated.

1. is a very hard question that involves a bunch of ideas. First, you have to take a huge opportunity cost to make a Nexus, so you need to make sure you are safe enough to do that because starting a Nex and cancelling it 30 seconds later, clearing an army and remaking, is way worse than waiting 30 seconds originally to make it. Also you want to make up the opportunity cost of the Nexus as fast as possible, so having enough workers to start getting a good income instantly is important. Zerg is really completely separate from Protoss and Terren because their Nexus is their entire production. So yea, most importantly its opportunity cost

2. It is beneficial to long distance mine if you are exceeding 24 probes on minerals for a base(over 24 workers you get 0 additional income so any LDM amount will be greater than 0). Reasons people don't this are 1: its apm/mental energy they don't have to spare. 2: it is not always safe to have workers long distance mining so losing theoretical income in the short term until you can secure a base to properly mine from may be the correct decision in a lot of situations.

3. It is not better it is preference/style. Doing a large maynard of probes when a new base comes online (large=enough so that the original base is no longer optimally saturated) puts all the lost income from travel time up front. Setting up optimal saturation in your main then simply re-rallying spreads out the lost income over a longer period of time. So, for example, if you were in a situation where you need every single mineral you can get NOW you would probably want to re-rally. But, conversely, if you want to saturate 2 bases as quickly as possible while teching then doing a large maynard will get you saturation faster. (after the initial bump in income that is)

Low Master P on NA if its anything.
Gamegene
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
United States8308 Posts
November 30 2011 04:28 GMT
#22
On November 30 2011 10:54 Imbaman wrote:
I agree with that when the bases are not yet saturated, but if bases are already saturated, cutting SCVs doesn't reduce income, because any new SCVs will not provide any income anyway (unless you long distance mine, which even so provides quite little).


Here's the thing:

You're making a third command center because in all likelihood you're going to take a third expansion. You're not making a third command center just for mules, because if you're staying on two base it's more than likely you're going to want those extra minerals in whatever timing you have, and the mules are going to take a while to pay for themselves, and you're going to deplete those 2 bases faster. So if you are planning on taking the third expansion, you want the SCVs to saturate that third base faster, which is why you keep producing SCVs.
Throw on your favorite jacket and you're good to roll. Stroll through the trees and let your miseries go.
Imbaman
Profile Joined November 2011
Singapore15 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-30 05:37:12
November 30 2011 05:35 GMT
#23
On November 30 2011 13:28 Gamegene wrote:
Here's the thing:

You're making a third command center because in all likelihood you're going to take a third expansion. You're not making a third command center just for mules, because if you're staying on two base it's more than likely you're going to want those extra minerals in whatever timing you have, and the mules are going to take a while to pay for themselves, and you're going to deplete those 2 bases faster. So if you are planning on taking the third expansion, you want the SCVs to saturate that third base faster, which is why you keep producing SCVs.


Yes I understand, and my question was pertaining to taking new bases, but not necessarily just the third. But what I was thinking was, upon reaching saturation at existing bases, cutting worker production in order to get the new base up quicker, and then restarting worker production would allow the new workers to start mining faster, as well as use the new CC to start producing workers faster. From my simulations in the build order calculator:

Constant worker production, at building CC at 400 minerals

Cutting workers at saturation, building CC, then continuing worker production

As you can see, in both cases, there are 3 raxes continuously pumping out marines. I made a lot of excess supply depots to reduce the mineral count to show to effect of cutting workers, because otherwise with just 3 raxes and no add ons, you would reach 400 minerals before saturating the first base. The minerals spent on supply depots can easily be used to build refineries, factories, starports etc. I just build supply depot to simplify the simulation and remove the need to build gas.

Even with only 3 marines being produced at a time, not cutting workers got the CC started at 45 supply, while cutting workers got the CC up at started supply. As you can see, the cutting workers BO also ended up with more workers and more minerals mined at around 8:50 than the constant production BO.

I understand that this simulation is over simplified, but in both cases, barracks were built at the same time, marines were in constant production, and both were never supply blocked, both have same number of supply depots, so I think it is fair to say that they are on a level field.
Elefes
Profile Joined September 2011
Russian Federation164 Posts
December 01 2011 05:35 GMT
#24
Hey, if you have 30+ workers at each base, it's ovesaturation etc, but usually it's not safe to pull long-distance mining, as mentioned. How much minerals per minute do you expect to get eve with 10 mining workers? 100/minute? that's just not worth it, 2 kills - and you're even.
But what if you go for 1 geyser? With like 6-7 workers. It's pretty easy to rescue them since they're gathering in 1 line, and the extra 50-70 gas/minute may help to squeeze an extra upgrade out.

What we also often see is players don't use long-distance mining when Nexus/Hatch is morphing, while the main is oversat, although most the time it's pretty safe (I mean, you don't expand when there's a huge threat, right?) - that could be just a habit.
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