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[G] The PvZ of Gods

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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Arcanefrost
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Belgium1257 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-23 19:16:49
November 22 2011 18:20 GMT
#1
The PvZ of Gods: Hero style PvZ

Hi tl, long time since my last guide. I know you were all missing me like crazy, but don’t worry I’m back. :p

So this guide will be about PvZ, more specifically about what I learnt these past few weeks by watching a lot of streams (Hero, Killer, Rsvp …)

The three strategies I will discuss are Hero's Void Ray into Sentry Drop, Rsvp's Void Ray Zealot timing into Ht and a macro style of play inspired by a number of great PvZ players.

Forge FE:

Every build I will be discussing is a transition out of a forge fe, so you better be good at it. If you're an experienced player you'll probably know all of this already.

+ Show Spoiler +
A lot of people only ffe on maps like shakuras, and act like doing it on maps like xelnaga or dual sight (the horror!) is straight-up suicide. Well, it’s not as long as you scout and react.

A 9scout is pretty crucial if you don’t want to lose to every early pool they throw at you, and it usually leaves you enough time to respond accordingly.

If his pool >14 there’s no problem, you can safely go nexus first. If it is sooner you want to get the forge first, and then the nexus into cannons. Generally I don’t like going gate before cannon too much because it’s somewhat risky and not really worth it.

Against earlier pools you either want to throw down a pylon in your main and cannon your mineral line (get 2), or block him. You can either block him by completing your wall or by pulling probes. Key thing here is to prevent him from entering your main. Pull 5-6 probes and try to trap him on the ramp or in-between 2 buildings. On maps like shattered temple it’s pretty much impossible to do a full wall, so what you want to do is block the area from your nexus to your ramp with buildings. This will force him to go all the way around your nexus. Next step is blocking off the area behind a mineral line, and surrounding his lings with probes while your cannon completes. It’s generally safer to get 2 cannons, on really good ffe maps eg Shakuras and you can delay the second one of course.

A nice trick is to complete the wall with a second gate, and then cancel it for a core. That way you don't have to be aware of the minimap the entire time.
Against 6-7-8 pool it’s impossible to hold without sacrificing your forge and pylon and cannoning your mineral line. I know it’s tough to let your beloved forge die but don’t try to save it, you’ll only lose probes and end up behind.

It’s super important to scout the zerg again around the 4:30-5:00 min mark with a probe.
Key things you want to look for are:
- Did he expand?
-What’s his drone count like?
-Does he have speed?
-Does he have an abnormal amount of units?
-Does he have any tech structure or lair tech?

Afetr this you want to send out a zealot, and look for the exact same things.

Defending vs roach all-ins off 1base is as simple as getting a million cannons. You will not end up behind if he’s 1basing and you can keep your natural nexus. Chronoboost stalkers or sentries out of your gate, and keep the wall up. If he breaks something down remake the wall behind it preemptively.

Important: You always want two scouting probes out on the map. Main reason for this is to get forward pylons, and to scout for any expoes. Hide one in a safe spot that is very unlikely to ever get checked by the zerg, the other one can be in a little riskier spot (at the zerg’s fourth for example).


The Gosu Builds:

Now to the interesting part, the PvZ builds I love.

1) Hero’s Voidray Prism Sentry Drop.

First up is Hero’s void ray into sentry drop. Awesome, awesome build. Literally anyone can die to this if well executed (Ask Idra and Ret). This build is at its strongest in close air positions. On maps like antiga and shakuras you can go for a drop at the third, and ff the ramp using 2ff.

+ Show Spoiler +
The Build:

Forge FE
Cb probes a lot
Get stargate as soon as core finishes, then get a sentry and wg.
Additional gas 1 at the 6:30 and 2 at the 7min mark.
CB a voidray out of your stargate.
Keep making sentries.
Start your robo after the first void ray.
Get +1 and mass cb it.
Get another void ray when you can afford so without stopping sentry production.
Warp prism as soon as robo is done.
Add 7 gates.
Keep making voids and sentries.
Attack! (should be 9min-ish)
Get a robo bay (9:25-ish) and +1 armor.

Execution:

So you start off with a stargate, seems rather weird if you’re going for a fast sentry drop right? The reason you need the void rays is to clear every single overlord that could come even remotely close to spotting your warp prism. Next up is clearing the towers. When your prism is flying to his base, reveal it as late as possible! When you reach his ramp drop a sentry, ff the ramp instantly, go into phase mode and unload the others. Now warp-in 8 zealots. Kill everything and keep forcefielidng the ramp. If he tries to kill your sentries load them into the prism and drop them again later. Really it’s as simple as that+1 zealots combined with your voids shear through everything unless he had units waiting in his main. It’s not even all-in, you have +1 and reasonably fast colossus. If the map allows it (antiga or shakuras), you can even get a second prism and do a mutli-pronged sentry drop ff ramp at the third and main. Requires good multitasking though. The beauty is that you can even save your money units (the sentries) by loading them into the prism and flying away.
I usually expand around the 13 minute mark and take my fourth shortly after it, while pushing with colossi/void ray/gateway

To make sure the zerg doesn’t catch your prism, it’s good to create a diversion. You should have cleared the towers with your voids, so it’s good to send 4zealots to his third and make him worry about that for a while. Alternatively you can poke with the voids at his third and fly them into the main later, or do both.

What if he tries to counter:

- Make a lot of cannons
- Rally your void rays back, keep forcefielidng the ramp.
- Use the sentries back home + warp-in to defend. This is why it's so important to go up to 8 sentries, you need forcefields ready at home!
-Make walls
-Don't panic, you can't really lose because of the voidrays dps. Once you have 5 you just need to make sure your ff are good and it's done.

You’re almost always able to kill his main or his third if you do it right (sometimes even both), and afterwards you’re colossi push is going to make him cry bitter Zerg tears.

Embarrassing thing you want to avoid:

Don’t go into phase mode to close to the ramp, you don’t want the natural queen killing it TT

Vs Mutas:

If he has a spire things change, because those damned mutas can fly over forcefields. If his mutas are late, you can overpower him with stalkers + void rays. If not don’t drop at all, and get a second stargate and start mass cbing phoenixes. Get the tc shortly after it for blink, and then tech to storm. Take the third FAST, you got to use your early advantage with phoenixes to expand. If you don’t do it he’ll out produce you and you will have a bloody hard timing establishing that third.

Alternatively you can go for a 2base gateway/phoenix timing, but only if you gained air control!


2) Rsvp’s Void Ray Zealot +1 into double stargate ht chargelot.

Next up is a really cool but unorthodox build. I saw this on colrsvp’s stream and it’s pretty sick. The timings might not be as neat as a colossi macro build, but it’s strong.

+ Show Spoiler +
The Build:

Forge FE
Get +1 asap
Get a Stargate (6min-ish)
Add 3 gateways at the 7 minute mark.
3th and 4th gas.
Establish a forward pylon.
Cb a void ray, attack with your +1 zealots and the void ray.
Keep producing voids and get +1 armor. Keep zealot pressuring if he goes lings, don’t bother if he has roaches or too much stuff.
Add a second stargate and make a phoenix.
Get a tc (around 9:30)
Templar archives asap, you need storm vs 2base hydra all-ins!
Get charge and +2 attack.
Get a third around the 10:30 min mark. Don’t be afraid to make some cannons vs aggressive Zergs.

The Execution:

Pretty straight forward at first: Attack his third with zealots and void rays. A nice trick is to use hold position after you previously pressed attack on the hatch. That way the lings will have a hard time killing your zealots.

Now on to the interesting transition: Double stargate and ht. Note that you have to make at least one phoenix to scout him relentlessly. If he goes mutas you need to stop making voids and go phoenixes instead! Don’t really cb the voidrays, you will end up with almost only void rays if you cb them like crazy

He’s likely going hydra, so get storm really fast or you could die. Once you have storm you can crush through hydra based forces.

Play defensively at first, you’re pretty vulnerable until you have storm (do cb that like crazy btw), and it’s better to just poke with the void rays.

Don’t make too many archons, storm is usually better. Make archons when your ht are out of energy or when you quickly need units and can’t afford to wait for them to regain energy. Mixing in a couple of archons is a nice touch, but until late game you don’t really have the income to do this cost-efficiently.

We’re obviously laying the foundations for a very strong midgame attack consisting of ht/chargelot/voidray. If you micro well you can take on almost everything, move out and do as much damage you can. Don’t overcommit though, it’s not like we’re all-inning here.

Keep expanding on a regular basis, getting cannons to protect them. You can add 2robos and go for colossi, which is pretty strong. Be careful though, prioritize air if he has a lot of broodlords.

Getting a mothership is the best thing to do next, as vortex + storm + archons is usually pretty good. Understatement of the year.

Embarrassing thing you want to avoid:

-If you want to do some midgame void ray poking, don’t walk into mutas or fungals and lose them all.

- Try not to forget to build storm. The euphoria of seeing my ht archives complete messes with my mind sometimes.


3) Macro Game with Colossi

So this is what I generally gathered from hero, hasuobs, grubby, rsvp, …
It’s a macro style of play with a fast robo and quick expansions, allowing you to keep up with the zerg even though you play quite passively. This all into an insane mothership/ht/archon/colossi/void ray/carrier deathball .

+ Show Spoiler +
The Build:

FFE
+1 attack quickly
Make 4 sentries
Robo facility around the 6:30 min mark.
Add 3 gateways at the 7:15 min mark.
3th and 4th gas.
Make 2 observers and scout him continuously.
+1 armor


Muta play:

Against mutas I’ll refer you to this thread, I’d end up rephrasing his words anyway.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=287788

Against roach play:

Get 2 immortals and a lot of sentries (around 10 is nice). Get aggressive and try to kill his third base. With good ff, immortal/gateway crushes roach/ling with late lair. If he’s prepared don’t lose anything, just poke around and don’t engage fights you won’t win convincingly.

Make your third at the 9min mark and get 4gateways to make a wall.
Get the robo bay around the 9:30 min mark, and cb colossi a lot. Get the twilight council aswell and start blink and +1.
Your first pressure comes with the 2 immortal push, the second one when you have 2 colossi. Note that I say pressure, and not kamikaze your army to kill him fast.
Colossi + blink allows you to be very aggressive in the midgame.
Around the 12 minute mark you want to add a second robo. Not necessarily for a lot of colossi, but for whatever the situation calls for. If you need units make colossi/immortals, if your observers got killed remake them without affecting your colossi production, …

Infestor timing:

Get colossi asap, skip immortalss for faster robo bay. With enoguh splash and some good ff, he's dead. You just kill his push and have a third base while he does not.


Warp prisms are amazing. There’s no other word for it simply amazing.
The trick is to engage with your main army, make him go all panicky and then retreat and warp stuff into his main. It’s fun to warp-in dts, but not necessarily good. Broodlord-infestor is very strong, and you absolutely need air to deal with it.
This is maybe an exaggeration, as there are other ways. I’ll split this up into 2 styles now.

Macro style:

Get the stargate around the 13 minute mark, and go for a fats fourth right after it. Defend it with a bunch of cannons and good ff + blink.

At the 15 minute mark you want to go fleet beacon for mothership and add a templar archives. Get air grades as soon as you decide to tech air!

Go for a stargate explosion once he goes for hive, and make void rays or carriers. Void rays are cheaper and faster, but carriers are stronger.
Mix in some archons and ht with storm, and you got yourself a deathball.

Vortexing well is crucial; it’s what allows you to win the fights. Don’t think you’ll win just because you have a vortex and archons, smart Zergs won’t throw everything inside it and can still be a threat.

Using recall can be quite good. It allows you to quickly kill expoes and warp everything away the second things get dangerous.

On maps like shakuras it’s fun to sneak in a superfast third by using a prism 

Warp prism style:

With this you basically go for blink/colossi/sentry, and pressure him constantly. Meanwhile you’re warping in zealots at two different warp prims, relentlessly sniping anything you can. You still want to keep expanding, and get ht for storm.

This is very micro heavy, we’re going to kill the Zerg with multipronged attacks and battle the broodlord-infestor ball without air!

You attack with the main army, and then all hell breaks loose. You need to get a good arc for one, a good blink to snipe brood lords (Good is somewhat flankish, away from his main force. Bad is right on top of his roaches). Feedback infestors and storm everything. Start kiting backwards or push forward, it all depends on the battle. Retreat to your cannons, and warp-in zealots or ( and some dt if you have them) at the prisms. The best things to kill are the greater spire, the roach warren or a hatch.
You keep expanding, keep adding gates, and keep engaging and harassing straight after the battle until he crumbles apart.
Generally stay active, if you don’t want to engage send blink stalkers to poke somewhere. It’s really good to send 10 with an observer to blink into his main and snipe stuff off.
This style is really hard to play, but very fun and rewarding.

You can alternatively go for something in-between both styles. By going for fats expoes and warp prism harass, you can tech to air while being very aggressive at the same time. Key difference is that you don’t actually want to engage, but make him prepare for an attack that will break off at the last possible second to buy time for the warp-inned stuff at the prisms.



Sources:

That’s it for now hope, you all enjoyed it.
if you guys ahve any questions just post them, I'll try to answer them as best as I can.
Only thing left to do is give you guys the links to the awesome source material.

http://twitch.tv/colrsvp : Rsvp’s stream (Second build, and great macro play with colossi)
http://twitch.tv/followgrubby : Grubby’s stream ( Insane warp prism play and beautiful micro)
http://twitch.tv/LiquidHerO : Hero’s stream ( Even better prism harass and micro, with beautiful macro backing it up)

http://tv.majorleaguegaming.com/videos/79392-cwr3-liquidret-vs-liquidhero-game-2
Hero does the prism void ray build beautifully.

http://drop.sc/62973
http://drop.sc/63518
Replay of myself doing it quite poorly, I usually do it better :p

http://twitch.tv/colrsvp/b/300116752
At the 25 and at the 50 minute mark you can see rsvp doing his zealot/ht/voidray build.

Cheers,

Arcane
Valor is a poor substitute for numbers.
Geiko
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
France1939 Posts
November 22 2011 18:26 GMT
#2
Awww I thought this was going to be about arcanning like a god
geiko.813 (EU)
Arcanefrost
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Belgium1257 Posts
November 22 2011 18:29 GMT
#3
On November 23 2011 03:26 Geiko wrote:
Awww I thought this was going to be about arcanning like a god


Writing a guide about that seems afwully boring. Besides I have no idea how to make a youtube video about it, and it would suck without a youtube video ^^

Feel free to write it, we'll call it arcane-geikoing. Alphabetical order of course, how convenient
Valor is a poor substitute for numbers.
mizU
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States12125 Posts
November 22 2011 18:52 GMT
#4
Ooo Pretty nice builds I haven't read about before. I'll be trying this on KR ladder ^^
if happy ever afters did exist <3 @watamizu_
InvXXVII
Profile Joined March 2011
Canada242 Posts
November 22 2011 19:06 GMT
#5
Wow this is awesome article. Often i ffe into 7 gate and dunno how to transition if zerg holds. Thanks!!
A good loser is still a loser.
Arcanefrost
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Belgium1257 Posts
November 22 2011 21:20 GMT
#6
Updated with some more stuff
Valor is a poor substitute for numbers.
DoctaD
Profile Joined December 2010
35 Posts
November 22 2011 21:29 GMT
#7
you should probably add in 3/4 gas timings which is usually around the 7 min mark
SoKHo
Profile Joined April 2011
Korea (South)1081 Posts
November 22 2011 21:41 GMT
#8
On November 23 2011 04:06 InvXXVII wrote:
Wow this is awesome article. Often i ffe into 7 gate and dunno how to transition if zerg holds. Thanks!!


because it's an all-inish build and hard to transition out of unless you take a fast third
"If you don't understand my silence, you won't understand my words"|| Big Nal_rA fan boy!! Nal_rA, Bisu, Huk, MC, Hero fighting! SKT1---->
Arcanefrost
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Belgium1257 Posts
November 22 2011 21:45 GMT
#9
On November 23 2011 06:41 SoKHo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 23 2011 04:06 InvXXVII wrote:
Wow this is awesome article. Often i ffe into 7 gate and dunno how to transition if zerg holds. Thanks!!


because it's an all-inish build and hard to transition out of unless you take a fast third


It depends, if you don't cut too many probes and get fast upgrades you can go for colossi and take your third pretty smoothly. I'm not the biggest fan of it though.
Valor is a poor substitute for numbers.
Geovu
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Estonia1344 Posts
November 22 2011 23:11 GMT
#10
On November 23 2011 06:41 SoKHo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 23 2011 04:06 InvXXVII wrote:
Wow this is awesome article. Often i ffe into 7 gate and dunno how to transition if zerg holds. Thanks!!


because it's an all-inish build and hard to transition out of unless you take a fast third

You don't need to keep attacking until all your crap died to roaches. If Zerg responds correctly (EX makes a bunch of units) you can always see that and pull back and plop down a perfectly safe nexus (Cuz you have 7 gates lol). If Zerg doesn't respond correctly you win anyways.

TBH I think that build is better if you are assuming Zerg has units, maybe even by throwing a third nexus down as soon as you push out. Never expanding because "Well that's my build, it's an allin you can't expand right" is not a good mindset imo.
Zealot Lord
Profile Joined May 2010
Hong Kong747 Posts
November 23 2011 00:39 GMT
#11
Nice thread! I got a question - as with most current high level PvZ builds, these all come off of FFE's, but how viable are they if you try transition into them from 1/3 gate expands? The reason I'm asking this is that against randoms that spawn zergs, I'd like to know if these are builds that are good to strive for still, or that the slower economy at the start hurts the timing of these builds.

Thanks in advance!
beamingrobot
Profile Joined October 2010
United States685 Posts
November 23 2011 01:39 GMT
#12
but check out Ret Vs Hero at MLG Providence on Metalopolis. He does the prism void ray build beautifully.


http://tv.majorleaguegaming.com/videos/79392-cwr3-liquidret-vs-liquidhero-game-2
Xenorawks
Profile Joined October 2011
158 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-23 03:27:29
November 23 2011 03:25 GMT
#13
On November 23 2011 09:39 Zealot Lord wrote:
Nice thread! I got a question - as with most current high level PvZ builds, these all come off of FFE's, but how viable are they if you try transition into them from 1/3 gate expands? The reason I'm asking this is that against randoms that spawn zergs, I'd like to know if these are builds that are good to strive for still, or that the slower economy at the start hurts the timing of these builds.

Thanks in advance!


If you want to execute these type of stargate warpprism 7 gate build off a 1/3 gate expo, it would most probably be an all-in. If you favor macro after 1/3 gate and continue to get tons of probes after you throw down that nexus, your attack will be delayed and therefore I would say, it's a little all-innish because the chances of it failing is higher. If you cut probes to execute this, it's also all-innish. It's not 100% a bad thing though, did you see Naniwa's 2 gate stargate expo into 6 gate 3 Void rays all-in vs Nestea at MLG recently? Pretty damn effective.

By doing 1/3 gate expo, there's always a timing you must hit/pressure the zerg or else zerg's macro will get out of control. Therefore, I would say it's harder to pull off if you're doing 1/3 gate expo, and even harder to come back if it ever fails.
Falcon-sw
Profile Joined September 2010
United States324 Posts
November 23 2011 03:37 GMT
#14
I can't wait for one of those "Remember when?" movies about SC2 where they show observers endlessly force fielding the ramp to the zerg's main, while the 'toss rapes everything laughs the whole time.

Similar to how Corsair disruption web used to last forever and a day.

This is gonna get fixed eventually. It's so broken it's laughable.
https://www.youtube.com/FalconPaladin https://twitch.tv/falconpaladin
Xenorawks
Profile Joined October 2011
158 Posts
November 23 2011 04:35 GMT
#15
On November 23 2011 12:37 Falcon-sw wrote:
I can't wait for one of those "Remember when?" movies about SC2 where they show observers endlessly force fielding the ramp to the zerg's main, while the 'toss rapes everything laughs the whole time.

Similar to how Corsair disruption web used to last forever and a day.

This is gonna get fixed eventually. It's so broken it's laughable.


Observers don't forcefield, I believe the word you're looking for is sentries.
Problem easily solved by placing a queen/spore at ramp to kill the warpprism. Another reason why zergs die to it is because they don't have vision of their entire base, so they only spot the warpprism at the ramp at the very last second if there happen to be a creep tumor there. If you took an extra tumor to cover the edge of your base where the prism could come you won't have this problem. Towards mid-game, nydus, hydras and mutas kill this too.
Zealot Lord
Profile Joined May 2010
Hong Kong747 Posts
November 23 2011 05:24 GMT
#16
On November 23 2011 12:25 Xenorawks wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 23 2011 09:39 Zealot Lord wrote:
Nice thread! I got a question - as with most current high level PvZ builds, these all come off of FFE's, but how viable are they if you try transition into them from 1/3 gate expands? The reason I'm asking this is that against randoms that spawn zergs, I'd like to know if these are builds that are good to strive for still, or that the slower economy at the start hurts the timing of these builds.

Thanks in advance!


If you want to execute these type of stargate warpprism 7 gate build off a 1/3 gate expo, it would most probably be an all-in. If you favor macro after 1/3 gate and continue to get tons of probes after you throw down that nexus, your attack will be delayed and therefore I would say, it's a little all-innish because the chances of it failing is higher. If you cut probes to execute this, it's also all-innish. It's not 100% a bad thing though, did you see Naniwa's 2 gate stargate expo into 6 gate 3 Void rays all-in vs Nestea at MLG recently? Pretty damn effective.

By doing 1/3 gate expo, there's always a timing you must hit/pressure the zerg or else zerg's macro will get out of control. Therefore, I would say it's harder to pull off if you're doing 1/3 gate expo, and even harder to come back if it ever fails.


Thanks for the answer, appreciate it!
Yoshi Kirishima
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
United States10351 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-23 05:56:21
November 23 2011 05:40 GMT
#17
Oh god, multiple guides in the same thread? Good shit, man! I love these new creative Protoss strategies, thanks!


On November 23 2011 13:35 Xenorawks wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 23 2011 12:37 Falcon-sw wrote:
I can't wait for one of those "Remember when?" movies about SC2 where they show observers endlessly force fielding the ramp to the zerg's main, while the 'toss rapes everything laughs the whole time.

Similar to how Corsair disruption web used to last forever and a day.

This is gonna get fixed eventually. It's so broken it's laughable.


Observers don't forcefield, I believe the word you're looking for is sentries.
Problem easily solved by placing a queen/spore at ramp to kill the warpprism. Another reason why zergs die to it is because they don't have vision of their entire base, so they only spot the warpprism at the ramp at the very last second if there happen to be a creep tumor there. If you took an extra tumor to cover the edge of your base where the prism could come you won't have this problem. Towards mid-game, nydus, hydras and mutas kill this too.


that's great to hear, i was worrying it might be imba =O
Mid-master streaming MECH ONLY + commentary www.twitch.tv/yoshikirishima +++ "If all-in fails, all-in again."
krowe
Profile Joined April 2010
United States184 Posts
November 23 2011 07:23 GMT
#18
really nice, and sounds like a really good build to have in a bag of tricks. but if possible can you upload more replays of people doing this in the OP?

im more of a hands on guy and like to see the games so see different timings/variations. thanks :D
Geiko
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
France1939 Posts
November 23 2011 10:08 GMT
#19
On November 23 2011 09:39 Zealot Lord wrote:
Nice thread! I got a question - as with most current high level PvZ builds, these all come off of FFE's, but how viable are they if you try transition into them from 1/3 gate expands? The reason I'm asking this is that against randoms that spawn zergs, I'd like to know if these are builds that are good to strive for still, or that the slower economy at the start hurts the timing of these builds.

Thanks in advance!


I remember HerO doing this sentry drop + void ray + 4 gate in the latest MLG off of a gateway expand, so it's definately doable. It was in his series against Ret I beleive, game 2 (but not quite sure).
geiko.813 (EU)
Arcanefrost
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Belgium1257 Posts
November 23 2011 11:40 GMT
#20
On November 23 2011 19:08 Geiko wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 23 2011 09:39 Zealot Lord wrote:
Nice thread! I got a question - as with most current high level PvZ builds, these all come off of FFE's, but how viable are they if you try transition into them from 1/3 gate expands? The reason I'm asking this is that against randoms that spawn zergs, I'd like to know if these are builds that are good to strive for still, or that the slower economy at the start hurts the timing of these builds.

Thanks in advance!


I remember HerO doing this sentry drop + void ray + 4 gate in the latest MLG off of a gateway expand, so it's definately doable. It was in his series against Ret I beleive, game 2 (but not quite sure).


Pretty sure that was forge fe :p

You can do it off gateway expo but it isn't nearly as good. You need the econ for the gateway explosion, and with ffe the z will most likely delay his gas making it nearly impossible to have burrow movement or overlord drop.
Valor is a poor substitute for numbers.
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