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DefJukie
20 Posts
I would prefer to get to the mid game where it becomes a battle of roach, roach/infestor, roach/hydra, or even mutas but rarely am ever able to get there. What is the safest/best opening to get a ZvZ to the mid game that can hold 1 or 2 base ling bling as well as speedling expands? Is it absolutely necessary to tech to blings (even just for defense) in order to tech to roaches and secure the natural? | ||
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Macrobe
United Kingdom87 Posts
On November 13 2011 10:07 DefJukie wrote: ZvZ is by far my worst matchup (prolly lose 70%+ of my games) solely because I cant stand ling bling wars and am terrible at dealing with the micro and volatility of this composition. I would prefer to get to the mid game where it becomes a battle of roach, roach/infestor, roach/hydra, or even mutas but rarely am ever able to get there. What is the safest/best opening to get a ZvZ to the mid game that can hold 1 or 2 base ling bling as well as speedling expands? Is it absolutely necessary to tech to blings (even just for defense) in order to tech to roaches and secure the natural? It's really good to get to know how to ling bling, because banelings are so good in early game ZvZ for offensive and defensive purposes. However, there are roach openings out there that can work well, like this one: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=199583 I would still advise learning to love banelings, because with the volatile nature of early game ZvZ there are situations where they'll be better than going roach. | ||
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Xana
Denmark128 Posts
If he brings banelings, you simply spread out your lings in a nice manner around your queens, and abuse transfusion to keep your wall alive. Replay: Comming up when SC2 replayed is done processing. | ||
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Brayzon
Germany29 Posts
On November 13 2011 10:18 Xana wrote: I have been using a rather unique build, that deals pretty well with anything later than a 9 pool. The whole spark of the build, relies on blocking your ramp with two queens, and keeping your hatchery safe by using the range of a spinecrawler and a handful of lings to deflect any Ling/Bling comming at you. The first two queens should both inject, before waddling off to the ramp. Do make an extra set of queens asap. Keep your overlord over his natural. If you do not see an expansion at about 5:15, you throw down your roach warren at your natural, along with an evo-chamber, blocking the banelings further. Depending on the map, a roach bust can be dangerous. With decent overlord placements, you should be able to get extra spines up in time though. 6+ spines really is not overkill if he's not placed his expansion by this time. If he brings banelings, you simply spread out your lings in a nice manner around your queens, and abuse transfusion to keep your wall alive. Replay: Comming up when SC2 replayed is done processing. not to offend you, but in which league and server does this actually work? 1base v 1base while you just stay passive? | ||
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Brayzon
Germany29 Posts
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Mentalizor
Denmark1596 Posts
On November 13 2011 10:20 Brayzon wrote: try the "unbeatable zvz build" from destiny (if u want i can write it down) or just go mass speedlings. if u do this you just have to micro against banelings, not with them. im plat and i can handle it vs master z, so its not that hard (if u want, i can post the exact bo as well). the reason why mass speedlings will work is that hes got much less zerglings than you have. if you exchange 2-3 zerglings for a baneling, your good. not to offend you, but in which league and server does this actually work? 1base v 1base while you just stay passive? I think non should be taken. Going fast 2 queen + "another set of queens"... I cannot see this working against a player who understands the matchup. I'd say around plat/diamond this build would start having serious issues | ||
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Xana
Denmark128 Posts
[B] not to offend you, but in which league and server does this actually work? 1base v 1base while you just stay passive? It works in High Diamond/Low Masters, anywhere around the world There's absolutely nothing a 14 pool can do about it. http://drop.sc/58240 Is a game of a slightly delayed 10 pool. He could've hit a few seconds earlier, but it had made little to no difference. Obviously, the extra queens are only mandatory if your opponent is showing agression. If he keeps on mining gas, sits on one base, expands late.. All are signs that you need extra defense. Noone is telling you to take such heavy precausions if he's expanding. Then just play a standard 2 hatch v 2 hatch. | ||
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Brayzon
Germany29 Posts
On November 13 2011 10:26 Xana wrote: It works in High Diamond/Low Masters, anywhere around the world There's absolutely nothing a 14 pool can do about it. http://drop.sc/58240 Is a game of a slightly delayed 10 pool. He could've hit a few seconds earlier, but it had made little to no difference. Obviously, the extra queens are only mandatory if your opponent is showing agression. If he keeps on mining gas, sits on one base, expands late.. All are signs that you need extra defense. Noone is telling you to take such heavy precausions if he's expanding. Then just play a standard 2 hatch v 2 hatch. well, tbh this was like the badest 10 pool ive ever seen, the game was one from there on. another replay of 14/14 would be useful. | ||
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Ksyper
Bulgaria665 Posts
First reason is that if you want to avoid ling baneling wars the first thing you go to is roaches, roaches are not good to start with because they need a really good economy to produce in mass, a ling only player can all in you and do a lot of damage or sometimes kill you or he can just go mass drone and you'll still be behind. The best way to kind of avoid ling baneling wars is to make banelings and 2 spines and just chill at your base, spread out the banelings and keep in mind that 2 banelings can kill a whole group, focus fire the banelings with the spines and just try to defend. That's the best way to kind of avoid baneling wars imho. EDIT: Don't get your banelings before your nat, just go 14g/14p 100gas get speed then pull 2 drones off gas and at 50 gas start baneling nest and put drones back in gas. | ||
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FirstGear
Australia185 Posts
On November 13 2011 10:26 Xana wrote: It works in High Diamond/Low Masters, anywhere around the world There's absolutely nothing a 14 pool can do about it. http://drop.sc/58240 Is a game of a slightly delayed 10 pool. He could've hit a few seconds earlier, but it had made little to no difference. Obviously, the extra queens are only mandatory if your opponent is showing agression. If he keeps on mining gas, sits on one base, expands late.. All are signs that you need extra defense. Noone is telling you to take such heavy precausions if he's expanding. Then just play a standard 2 hatch v 2 hatch. Zelniq who popularised mass early queens with the help of a day9 vod experimented with an opening like that heavily in zvz ages ago. I'm pretty sure he said there was a bane timing that made it unviable. It's just not a lot of people know it. | ||
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Xana
Denmark128 Posts
well, tbh this was like the badest 10 pool ive ever seen, the game was one from there on. another replay of 14/14 would be useful. I'll upload some, once I get some good games. Currently my ZvZ is full of 15h v 15h, since that seems to be the standard at higher leagues. The concept remains the same though. Your queens will finish before his speed does. Slow lings fight equal to speed lings. Banelings need to detonate to be useful. There's only two maps on the ladder where you cannot pull this off, and thats XNC and Tal'darim altar. Edit: There is a timing which skips ling-speed for earlier banelings, and you need to split your drones. However, as soon as the first banelings are gone, you're safe, 2 base versus 1 base to drone up heavily again. If you've kept all your drones at your main till the point where you're 'safe' there's nothing which can or will blow up all your drones. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
ZvZ is by far my worst matchup (prolly lose 70%+ of my games) solely because I cant stand ling bling wars and am terrible at dealing with the micro and volatility of this composition. I would prefer to get to the mid game where it becomes a battle of roach, roach/infestor, roach/hydra, or even mutas but rarely am ever able to get there. What is the safest/best opening to get a ZvZ to the mid game that can hold 1 or 2 base ling bling as well as speedling expands? Is it absolutely necessary to tech to blings (even just for defense) in order to tech to roaches and secure the natural? Yes. Nowadays a lot of people realize that roaches are horrible units. Spinecrawlers are more cost efficient for defense (and you'll need them for muta style anyways), you can hold any roach all-in with spines. And roaches give zero map control, which is why ling/bane is much better. Banes are way more cost efficient too, so you can better defend with them. You can't defend with roaches, lings will run circles around you until you get a mass that can wall-off, but by that point the opponent has a huge macro lead. If you are uncomfortable with bane wars, I recommend you go hatch first baneling, so you can fast forward the game into mid-game. As a defender, banes are quite easy to micro, just have 2 at the top of the ramp and don't let them pop them with single lings. I like to queue back and forth move commands with shift on the banes so they won't aggro. I think you can also have them set to follow an overlord (like one in your natural) so they won't aggro either (it doesnt seem to work well for me, but i dont really need to do it. if you are masters too you shouldnt either). Just have 2 banes forward and the rest stockpiled in the back. You'll be safe from any ling/bane aggression. But yes, you always need banes in ZvZ. With defenders advantage you should have an easy time defending and micro'ing. | ||
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DefJukie
20 Posts
On November 13 2011 10:20 Brayzon wrote: try the "unbeatable zvz build" from destiny (if u want i can write it down) or just go mass speedlings. if u do this you just have to micro against banelings, not with them. im plat and i can handle it vs master z, so its not that hard (if u want, i can post the exact bo as well). the reason why mass speedlings will work is that hes got much less zerglings than you have. if you exchange 2-3 zerglings for a baneling, your good. Actually, 2 base mass speedling is what got me from plat to mid/high masters now, it's a great zvz build but i feel like it kinda stopped working at this level. I played a game vs spanishiwa where he went ling bling into a late expo vs my mass speedling and i had no chance, wasn't even close, so I am guessing I need to find a new strat now for zvz (hopefully not involving ling bling). On November 13 2011 10:10 Macrobe wrote: It's really good to get to know how to ling bling, because banelings are so good in early game ZvZ for offensive and defensive purposes. However, there are roach openings out there that can work well, like this one: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=199583 I would still advise learning to love banelings, because with the volatile nature of early game ZvZ there are situations where they'll be better than going roach. That hatch first roach build looks promising, I'll try it out, thanks! | ||
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xUraharaX
United States72 Posts
15 hatch 16 gas 15 pool 17 overlord 18 2 queens 27 baneling nest 3 spines at 40 take 1 gas. at 40 drones make roach warren and evo chamber 55 Lair take 2 gasses in natural works on long maps, i found it hard to survive against 8 pool all ins with this though (build like 2 spines behind my mineral line and have 8 lings by the time im only half done with my pool)  maybe my micro isnt godly enough... you should be scouting for it, but on huge maps when they go blind all in, yeah you will probably lose, but who cares they are noobs that blindly all inned anyway. banelings are used for defense only at the beginning of the game, unless you really feel like your opponent is taking too many risks, or speedling all inned you and got banelinged and is at a huge disadvantage. the reason i like ZvZ so much is because it requires the most in game decisions in my opinion, constant scouting and map control are absolutely essential, if he takes short cuts, you can change your build on the fly and punish punish punish.I added in the 3 spines at 40 food, reason being is that some players would rally their first 7 roaches at me, and I dont have the best macro in the world (im low masters), so with my later than usual roach warren i would only get roaches about 15 seconds after their roaches hit. I hate roach infestor, my infestor micro is awful, and my hotkey setup is dismal I have a tendancy to control group my infestors with my roaches by accident, and 1A straight into the enemy. I like going muta, and clearing out the overlords on the map, in many cases your opponent will see 8 mutas and drop a hydra den immediately, and a few spores, as a result of the gas used to get hydras they will have less gas for infestors, if i feel that they cut infestors enough I mess around in their base with mutas to get the army out of position and then just roach all in. When you make your 3rd, also make a macro hatch. make sure you get early +1 attack (thats what the evo chamber is for if its not obvious) +1 ranged attack for roaches makes them 2 hit lings, making speedlings much much less effective in a roach speedling all in. if i feel like i cannot roach all in, I like to play defensive with spine crawlers, tech to drop/olspeed and get infestors, i will use bane drops and mutas to deny expansions and cripple the opponents economy, once you find you have a good advantage economy wise, you can trade roach/infestor armies and remake faster than they can and overwhelm them. make sure to keep up on your ranged upgrades, also try not to pull the trigger on the roach all in unless you are sure they dont have enough infestors/or their infestors dont have the energy, to take it. With this strat I am about 70% in masters in my ZvZ, sometimes i lose to blind all ins, sometimes I dont control my army well, and I only recently added the 3 spines, so i would die to early roach pressure a few times. When will this lose?.. i can see this having a hard time taking out a player doing a similar strategy but instead taking gasses earlier, building many spines, and making more mutas then gaining an econ advantage before I am able to do so myself through harass and map control. | ||
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Vandroy
Sweden155 Posts
On November 13 2011 10:41 Belial88 wrote: The majority of my ZvZs go into lategame. I don't understand why pros are so set on roach all-inning every game, and if you are defensive you will win more games than someone who is offensive when he runs into your banes. Yes. Nowadays a lot of people realize that roaches are horrible units. Spinecrawlers are more cost efficient for defense (and you'll need them for muta style anyways), you can hold any roach all-in with spines. And roaches give zero map control, which is why ling/bane is much better. Banes are way more cost efficient too, so you can better defend with them. You can't defend with roaches, lings will run circles around you until you get a mass that can wall-off, but by that point the opponent has a huge macro lead. If you are uncomfortable with bane wars, I recommend you go hatch first baneling, so you can fast forward the game into mid-game. As a defender, banes are quite easy to micro, just have 2 at the top of the ramp and don't let them pop them with single lings. I like to queue back and forth move commands with shift on the banes so they won't aggro. I think you can also have them set to follow an overlord (like one in your natural) so they won't aggro either (it doesnt seem to work well for me, but i dont really need to do it. if you are masters too you shouldnt either). Just have 2 banes forward and the rest stockpiled in the back. You'll be safe from any ling/bane aggression. But yes, you always need banes in ZvZ. With defenders advantage you should have an easy time defending and micro'ing. Agree with this, you can't really go roaches(atleast not that early) you give up too much map control so the best way is to go for defensive banelings(maybe with a spine) if you're feeling uncomfortable with baneling wars. I also agree with Belial that's it actually better to play the defensive role in ZvZ. So I'd say go for 15hatch -> defensive banelings/speedlings -> mid game. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
try the "unbeatable zvz build" from destiny (if u want i can write it down) or just go mass speedlings. if u do this you just have to micro against banelings, not with them. im plat and i can handle it vs master z, so its not that hard (if u want, i can post the exact bo as well). the reason why mass speedlings will work is that hes got much less zerglings than you have. if you exchange 2-3 zerglings for a baneling, your good. Destiny's 'unbeatable' build was pool/gas roach expand into ~23 drones roach/ling all-in that's incrediblt strong. Banelings ruin this though. It's all you see in diamond, but it's a really, really bad build. Opponent sees roaches, he just makes 4 spines. It's as unbeatable as a 4 gate. | ||
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MstrJinbo
United States1251 Posts
On November 13 2011 10:20 Brayzon wrote: try the "unbeatable zvz build" from destiny (if u want i can write it down) or just go mass speedlings. if u do this you just have to micro against banelings, not with them. im plat and i can handle it vs master z, so its not that hard (if u want, i can post the exact bo as well). the reason why mass speedlings will work is that hes got much less zerglings than you have. if you exchange 2-3 zerglings for a baneling, your good. not to offend you, but in which league and server does this actually work? 1base v 1base while you just stay passive? I saw Slush do something like this to beat Ret in an MLG match. Walled off with queens and went for an infestor timing attack. It's a bit of a gimmicky build though. He tried it against Idra later and got completely smashed. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
something like a 16hatch/15gas/14pool opening (quite greedy, be aware of earlier pools than 14/14) It's still a game of 2players. If your opponent tries to hit you at a time at which midgame units are just too expensive, you have to deal with his timing by using the units you have. So in conclusion, I really don't think you can just completly avoid such fights, without falling behind against other builds. (f.e. when you use a roach expand) | ||
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GWBuffalo
United States234 Posts
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Makura
United States317 Posts
If your hellbent on not learning that (which i know its frustrating to try but you must if you wish to improve), sen style +1 range roach defensive stances into push if your not pushed is nice | ||
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