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DefJukie
20 Posts
I would prefer to get to the mid game where it becomes a battle of roach, roach/infestor, roach/hydra, or even mutas but rarely am ever able to get there. What is the safest/best opening to get a ZvZ to the mid game that can hold 1 or 2 base ling bling as well as speedling expands? Is it absolutely necessary to tech to blings (even just for defense) in order to tech to roaches and secure the natural? | ||
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Macrobe
United Kingdom87 Posts
On November 13 2011 10:07 DefJukie wrote: ZvZ is by far my worst matchup (prolly lose 70%+ of my games) solely because I cant stand ling bling wars and am terrible at dealing with the micro and volatility of this composition. I would prefer to get to the mid game where it becomes a battle of roach, roach/infestor, roach/hydra, or even mutas but rarely am ever able to get there. What is the safest/best opening to get a ZvZ to the mid game that can hold 1 or 2 base ling bling as well as speedling expands? Is it absolutely necessary to tech to blings (even just for defense) in order to tech to roaches and secure the natural? It's really good to get to know how to ling bling, because banelings are so good in early game ZvZ for offensive and defensive purposes. However, there are roach openings out there that can work well, like this one: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=199583 I would still advise learning to love banelings, because with the volatile nature of early game ZvZ there are situations where they'll be better than going roach. | ||
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Xana
Denmark128 Posts
If he brings banelings, you simply spread out your lings in a nice manner around your queens, and abuse transfusion to keep your wall alive. Replay: Comming up when SC2 replayed is done processing. | ||
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Brayzon
Germany29 Posts
On November 13 2011 10:18 Xana wrote: I have been using a rather unique build, that deals pretty well with anything later than a 9 pool. The whole spark of the build, relies on blocking your ramp with two queens, and keeping your hatchery safe by using the range of a spinecrawler and a handful of lings to deflect any Ling/Bling comming at you. The first two queens should both inject, before waddling off to the ramp. Do make an extra set of queens asap. Keep your overlord over his natural. If you do not see an expansion at about 5:15, you throw down your roach warren at your natural, along with an evo-chamber, blocking the banelings further. Depending on the map, a roach bust can be dangerous. With decent overlord placements, you should be able to get extra spines up in time though. 6+ spines really is not overkill if he's not placed his expansion by this time. If he brings banelings, you simply spread out your lings in a nice manner around your queens, and abuse transfusion to keep your wall alive. Replay: Comming up when SC2 replayed is done processing. not to offend you, but in which league and server does this actually work? 1base v 1base while you just stay passive? | ||
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Brayzon
Germany29 Posts
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Mentalizor
Denmark1596 Posts
On November 13 2011 10:20 Brayzon wrote: try the "unbeatable zvz build" from destiny (if u want i can write it down) or just go mass speedlings. if u do this you just have to micro against banelings, not with them. im plat and i can handle it vs master z, so its not that hard (if u want, i can post the exact bo as well). the reason why mass speedlings will work is that hes got much less zerglings than you have. if you exchange 2-3 zerglings for a baneling, your good. not to offend you, but in which league and server does this actually work? 1base v 1base while you just stay passive? I think non should be taken. Going fast 2 queen + "another set of queens"... I cannot see this working against a player who understands the matchup. I'd say around plat/diamond this build would start having serious issues | ||
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Xana
Denmark128 Posts
[B] not to offend you, but in which league and server does this actually work? 1base v 1base while you just stay passive? It works in High Diamond/Low Masters, anywhere around the world There's absolutely nothing a 14 pool can do about it. http://drop.sc/58240 Is a game of a slightly delayed 10 pool. He could've hit a few seconds earlier, but it had made little to no difference. Obviously, the extra queens are only mandatory if your opponent is showing agression. If he keeps on mining gas, sits on one base, expands late.. All are signs that you need extra defense. Noone is telling you to take such heavy precausions if he's expanding. Then just play a standard 2 hatch v 2 hatch. | ||
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Brayzon
Germany29 Posts
On November 13 2011 10:26 Xana wrote: It works in High Diamond/Low Masters, anywhere around the world There's absolutely nothing a 14 pool can do about it. http://drop.sc/58240 Is a game of a slightly delayed 10 pool. He could've hit a few seconds earlier, but it had made little to no difference. Obviously, the extra queens are only mandatory if your opponent is showing agression. If he keeps on mining gas, sits on one base, expands late.. All are signs that you need extra defense. Noone is telling you to take such heavy precausions if he's expanding. Then just play a standard 2 hatch v 2 hatch. well, tbh this was like the badest 10 pool ive ever seen, the game was one from there on. another replay of 14/14 would be useful. | ||
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Ksyper
Bulgaria665 Posts
First reason is that if you want to avoid ling baneling wars the first thing you go to is roaches, roaches are not good to start with because they need a really good economy to produce in mass, a ling only player can all in you and do a lot of damage or sometimes kill you or he can just go mass drone and you'll still be behind. The best way to kind of avoid ling baneling wars is to make banelings and 2 spines and just chill at your base, spread out the banelings and keep in mind that 2 banelings can kill a whole group, focus fire the banelings with the spines and just try to defend. That's the best way to kind of avoid baneling wars imho. EDIT: Don't get your banelings before your nat, just go 14g/14p 100gas get speed then pull 2 drones off gas and at 50 gas start baneling nest and put drones back in gas. | ||
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FirstGear
Australia185 Posts
On November 13 2011 10:26 Xana wrote: It works in High Diamond/Low Masters, anywhere around the world There's absolutely nothing a 14 pool can do about it. http://drop.sc/58240 Is a game of a slightly delayed 10 pool. He could've hit a few seconds earlier, but it had made little to no difference. Obviously, the extra queens are only mandatory if your opponent is showing agression. If he keeps on mining gas, sits on one base, expands late.. All are signs that you need extra defense. Noone is telling you to take such heavy precausions if he's expanding. Then just play a standard 2 hatch v 2 hatch. Zelniq who popularised mass early queens with the help of a day9 vod experimented with an opening like that heavily in zvz ages ago. I'm pretty sure he said there was a bane timing that made it unviable. It's just not a lot of people know it. | ||
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Xana
Denmark128 Posts
well, tbh this was like the badest 10 pool ive ever seen, the game was one from there on. another replay of 14/14 would be useful. I'll upload some, once I get some good games. Currently my ZvZ is full of 15h v 15h, since that seems to be the standard at higher leagues. The concept remains the same though. Your queens will finish before his speed does. Slow lings fight equal to speed lings. Banelings need to detonate to be useful. There's only two maps on the ladder where you cannot pull this off, and thats XNC and Tal'darim altar. Edit: There is a timing which skips ling-speed for earlier banelings, and you need to split your drones. However, as soon as the first banelings are gone, you're safe, 2 base versus 1 base to drone up heavily again. If you've kept all your drones at your main till the point where you're 'safe' there's nothing which can or will blow up all your drones. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
ZvZ is by far my worst matchup (prolly lose 70%+ of my games) solely because I cant stand ling bling wars and am terrible at dealing with the micro and volatility of this composition. I would prefer to get to the mid game where it becomes a battle of roach, roach/infestor, roach/hydra, or even mutas but rarely am ever able to get there. What is the safest/best opening to get a ZvZ to the mid game that can hold 1 or 2 base ling bling as well as speedling expands? Is it absolutely necessary to tech to blings (even just for defense) in order to tech to roaches and secure the natural? Yes. Nowadays a lot of people realize that roaches are horrible units. Spinecrawlers are more cost efficient for defense (and you'll need them for muta style anyways), you can hold any roach all-in with spines. And roaches give zero map control, which is why ling/bane is much better. Banes are way more cost efficient too, so you can better defend with them. You can't defend with roaches, lings will run circles around you until you get a mass that can wall-off, but by that point the opponent has a huge macro lead. If you are uncomfortable with bane wars, I recommend you go hatch first baneling, so you can fast forward the game into mid-game. As a defender, banes are quite easy to micro, just have 2 at the top of the ramp and don't let them pop them with single lings. I like to queue back and forth move commands with shift on the banes so they won't aggro. I think you can also have them set to follow an overlord (like one in your natural) so they won't aggro either (it doesnt seem to work well for me, but i dont really need to do it. if you are masters too you shouldnt either). Just have 2 banes forward and the rest stockpiled in the back. You'll be safe from any ling/bane aggression. But yes, you always need banes in ZvZ. With defenders advantage you should have an easy time defending and micro'ing. | ||
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DefJukie
20 Posts
On November 13 2011 10:20 Brayzon wrote: try the "unbeatable zvz build" from destiny (if u want i can write it down) or just go mass speedlings. if u do this you just have to micro against banelings, not with them. im plat and i can handle it vs master z, so its not that hard (if u want, i can post the exact bo as well). the reason why mass speedlings will work is that hes got much less zerglings than you have. if you exchange 2-3 zerglings for a baneling, your good. Actually, 2 base mass speedling is what got me from plat to mid/high masters now, it's a great zvz build but i feel like it kinda stopped working at this level. I played a game vs spanishiwa where he went ling bling into a late expo vs my mass speedling and i had no chance, wasn't even close, so I am guessing I need to find a new strat now for zvz (hopefully not involving ling bling). On November 13 2011 10:10 Macrobe wrote: It's really good to get to know how to ling bling, because banelings are so good in early game ZvZ for offensive and defensive purposes. However, there are roach openings out there that can work well, like this one: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=199583 I would still advise learning to love banelings, because with the volatile nature of early game ZvZ there are situations where they'll be better than going roach. That hatch first roach build looks promising, I'll try it out, thanks! | ||
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xUraharaX
United States72 Posts
15 hatch 16 gas 15 pool 17 overlord 18 2 queens 27 baneling nest 3 spines at 40 take 1 gas. at 40 drones make roach warren and evo chamber 55 Lair take 2 gasses in natural works on long maps, i found it hard to survive against 8 pool all ins with this though (build like 2 spines behind my mineral line and have 8 lings by the time im only half done with my pool)  maybe my micro isnt godly enough... you should be scouting for it, but on huge maps when they go blind all in, yeah you will probably lose, but who cares they are noobs that blindly all inned anyway. banelings are used for defense only at the beginning of the game, unless you really feel like your opponent is taking too many risks, or speedling all inned you and got banelinged and is at a huge disadvantage. the reason i like ZvZ so much is because it requires the most in game decisions in my opinion, constant scouting and map control are absolutely essential, if he takes short cuts, you can change your build on the fly and punish punish punish.I added in the 3 spines at 40 food, reason being is that some players would rally their first 7 roaches at me, and I dont have the best macro in the world (im low masters), so with my later than usual roach warren i would only get roaches about 15 seconds after their roaches hit. I hate roach infestor, my infestor micro is awful, and my hotkey setup is dismal I have a tendancy to control group my infestors with my roaches by accident, and 1A straight into the enemy. I like going muta, and clearing out the overlords on the map, in many cases your opponent will see 8 mutas and drop a hydra den immediately, and a few spores, as a result of the gas used to get hydras they will have less gas for infestors, if i feel that they cut infestors enough I mess around in their base with mutas to get the army out of position and then just roach all in. When you make your 3rd, also make a macro hatch. make sure you get early +1 attack (thats what the evo chamber is for if its not obvious) +1 ranged attack for roaches makes them 2 hit lings, making speedlings much much less effective in a roach speedling all in. if i feel like i cannot roach all in, I like to play defensive with spine crawlers, tech to drop/olspeed and get infestors, i will use bane drops and mutas to deny expansions and cripple the opponents economy, once you find you have a good advantage economy wise, you can trade roach/infestor armies and remake faster than they can and overwhelm them. make sure to keep up on your ranged upgrades, also try not to pull the trigger on the roach all in unless you are sure they dont have enough infestors/or their infestors dont have the energy, to take it. With this strat I am about 70% in masters in my ZvZ, sometimes i lose to blind all ins, sometimes I dont control my army well, and I only recently added the 3 spines, so i would die to early roach pressure a few times. When will this lose?.. i can see this having a hard time taking out a player doing a similar strategy but instead taking gasses earlier, building many spines, and making more mutas then gaining an econ advantage before I am able to do so myself through harass and map control. | ||
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Vandroy
Sweden155 Posts
On November 13 2011 10:41 Belial88 wrote: The majority of my ZvZs go into lategame. I don't understand why pros are so set on roach all-inning every game, and if you are defensive you will win more games than someone who is offensive when he runs into your banes. Yes. Nowadays a lot of people realize that roaches are horrible units. Spinecrawlers are more cost efficient for defense (and you'll need them for muta style anyways), you can hold any roach all-in with spines. And roaches give zero map control, which is why ling/bane is much better. Banes are way more cost efficient too, so you can better defend with them. You can't defend with roaches, lings will run circles around you until you get a mass that can wall-off, but by that point the opponent has a huge macro lead. If you are uncomfortable with bane wars, I recommend you go hatch first baneling, so you can fast forward the game into mid-game. As a defender, banes are quite easy to micro, just have 2 at the top of the ramp and don't let them pop them with single lings. I like to queue back and forth move commands with shift on the banes so they won't aggro. I think you can also have them set to follow an overlord (like one in your natural) so they won't aggro either (it doesnt seem to work well for me, but i dont really need to do it. if you are masters too you shouldnt either). Just have 2 banes forward and the rest stockpiled in the back. You'll be safe from any ling/bane aggression. But yes, you always need banes in ZvZ. With defenders advantage you should have an easy time defending and micro'ing. Agree with this, you can't really go roaches(atleast not that early) you give up too much map control so the best way is to go for defensive banelings(maybe with a spine) if you're feeling uncomfortable with baneling wars. I also agree with Belial that's it actually better to play the defensive role in ZvZ. So I'd say go for 15hatch -> defensive banelings/speedlings -> mid game. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
try the "unbeatable zvz build" from destiny (if u want i can write it down) or just go mass speedlings. if u do this you just have to micro against banelings, not with them. im plat and i can handle it vs master z, so its not that hard (if u want, i can post the exact bo as well). the reason why mass speedlings will work is that hes got much less zerglings than you have. if you exchange 2-3 zerglings for a baneling, your good. Destiny's 'unbeatable' build was pool/gas roach expand into ~23 drones roach/ling all-in that's incrediblt strong. Banelings ruin this though. It's all you see in diamond, but it's a really, really bad build. Opponent sees roaches, he just makes 4 spines. It's as unbeatable as a 4 gate. | ||
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MstrJinbo
United States1251 Posts
On November 13 2011 10:20 Brayzon wrote: try the "unbeatable zvz build" from destiny (if u want i can write it down) or just go mass speedlings. if u do this you just have to micro against banelings, not with them. im plat and i can handle it vs master z, so its not that hard (if u want, i can post the exact bo as well). the reason why mass speedlings will work is that hes got much less zerglings than you have. if you exchange 2-3 zerglings for a baneling, your good. not to offend you, but in which league and server does this actually work? 1base v 1base while you just stay passive? I saw Slush do something like this to beat Ret in an MLG match. Walled off with queens and went for an infestor timing attack. It's a bit of a gimmicky build though. He tried it against Idra later and got completely smashed. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
something like a 16hatch/15gas/14pool opening (quite greedy, be aware of earlier pools than 14/14) It's still a game of 2players. If your opponent tries to hit you at a time at which midgame units are just too expensive, you have to deal with his timing by using the units you have. So in conclusion, I really don't think you can just completly avoid such fights, without falling behind against other builds. (f.e. when you use a roach expand) | ||
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GWBuffalo
United States234 Posts
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Makura
United States317 Posts
If your hellbent on not learning that (which i know its frustrating to try but you must if you wish to improve), sen style +1 range roach defensive stances into push if your not pushed is nice | ||
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TyrionSC2
United States411 Posts
14 gas 14 pool 21 hatch So it starts like a speed expand, but you make 2 queens from your main hatch. If you get roach asap after expanding there is a 15 second timing that banelings have before roaches, so your 2nd queen pops out and you put them both on your ramp eliminating the baneling timing. If you get really scared then you can build a spine near the ramp too. Your hatchery may take some shots, but you should be able to hold it and be far ahead after  | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On November 16 2011 04:15 TyrionSC2 wrote: If you want to avoid bling wars let me explain to you the build I use in ZvZ. 14 gas 14 pool 21 hatch So it starts like a speed expand, but you make 2 queens from your main hatch. If you get roach asap after expanding there is a 15 second timing that banelings have before roaches, so your 2nd queen pops out and you put them both on your ramp eliminating the baneling timing. If you get really scared then you can build a spine near the ramp too. Your hatchery may take some shots, but you should be able to hold it and be far ahead after Pool first builds lose vs hatch first mass speedling allins, so you MUST get a baneling nest in this build, else it's just cornercutting. And even if you're not getting speedling allined, you're just behind if you can't do some damage, which is pretty hard without banelings. | ||
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TyrionSC2
United States411 Posts
If they go hatchery first you need a baneling nest, but they can't really go hatchery first unless there is a ramp or you scout close air spawns in which it is totally safe. | ||
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Keyz1
Canada94 Posts
User was temp banned for this post. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On November 16 2011 04:31 TyrionSC2 wrote: Well certainly. If they go hatchery first. You'd obviously have to know what to do in each branch. I'm talking about what the op asked, which was ling bling on 1 base. If they go hatchery first you need a baneling nest, but they can't really go hatchery first unless there is a ramp or you scout close air spawns in which it is totally safe. hatch first is safe against every pool later than 11, while in some occasions you might want to cancel it to survive an early allin. Even 8-10pool have been held on prolevel with hatch first openings, even though I wouldn't recommend trying it (with canceling the hatch). on every map that matters, hatch first is a good ZvZ build and me and I think a lot of other players are willing to take the occasional early pool loss (that you might also receive if you go 14/14), for the ability to be even/ahead from the start of 90% of all ZvZs. (of course in a tournament series you also have to be able to play other openings, so that your opponent can't just blindcounter you every game) | ||
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Fruitality
Vietnam45 Posts
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
With hatch first, I will be getting my baneling nest before a 14/14 (unless you go nest before speed), and be able to defend with a spine or two. When I see no expansion or you continue mining gas after 100, I just make pure units and hold easily. I then simply make up to about 30 workers, and then do a roach/ling all-in and it will be impossible for you to hold, especially when I have banes along with it too. If they go hatchery first you need a baneling nest, but they can't really go hatchery first unless there is a ramp or you scout close air spawns in which it is totally safe. You can definitely hatch first, on any map. You can safely go hatch first very easily on taldarim. You can hatch first against 14/14 on steppes of war even (steppes would just make hatch first more vulnerable to 10-12 pool, which you'd normally be even or beat otherwise). hatch first is safe against every pool later than 11, while in some occasions you might want to cancel it to survive an early allin. Even 8-10pool have been held on prolevel with hatch first openings, even though I wouldn't recommend trying it (with canceling the hatch). You dont need pro micro to beat early pools with hatch first. If it's a 6-8 pool, of any variation, you just cancel the hatch. From there you can either move your drones out into the open and a-move, or you can just mineral walk to their base and rally lings from your eventual pool to your drones, and then engage when you have enough. If they don't bring drones, you win with an a-move, no micro necessary. If they do bring drones, you can a-move until their reinforcement lings come, and then a-move once your lings arrive. This isn't even talking about micro tricks like mineral walking or defensive mineral stacking, which hardly require pro micro. You're just a-moving or clicking on mineral patches. You aren't sniping, or baneling raining, or dropping, or kiting here. Just spend an hour or two with a friend or someone from TL and ask them to practice hatch first vs 6 pool. It's not to say I don't die to 14/14 bane aggression when going hatch first, even at masters. But I lose only because of huge blunders on my part, not because it was good aggression. Just like you can still lose to 7 rax all-ins or 4 gate though, there's no reason you should ever lose to such attacks when playing right, but that doesn't mean mistakes don't happen. 14/14 should really only be used in a boX series, when the opponent knows you are going hatch first and so does a 10 pool all in with drones pulled or 10 pool bane, as hatch first will beat early pools as long as you react correctly (read: not pro micro, just cancel hatch, run away until lings pop). Actually thinking about it I don't think I ever lose to 14/14 unless it's like my first game of the day and I get blocked stupidly or forget to make the pool or something as silly as that. | ||
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FogofWar
United States16 Posts
I tried for a long time to avoid ling baneling wars. Lots of losses led me to the following colclusions: If your opponent went pool first, you can transition into ling roach, skipping baneling entirely. If your opponent went hatch first, I see no way of avoiding banelings. The ling flood is too strong; and if you went hatch first, your opponent can make his own baneling nest and be impervious to any attack you might attempt against him. He drones while you're stuck making lings, roaches and/or spines to defend against possible attack. I learned to stop worrying and love the little walking bombs. Just my 2 cents | ||
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Sporadic44
United States533 Posts
What I'm saying is get comfortable with ling bling micro in zvz because with a little practice it will win you games. | ||
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Fruitality
Vietnam45 Posts
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
Aggressive 14/14 is not a good decision. If I come across someone who does 14/14, and doesn't take his expansion at 21, I make a few banes to hold any possible aggression, I make 5-10 drones, and then I pump pure roaches and lings off of 1 gas, and I overrun you. There will be no way to stop my roach/ling all-in, it simply won't be possible (unless you absolutely kill all your drones into spines, which is more damage than my attack would've done anyways). You can't play 'aggressive 14/14 while getting an expansion and a bane nest'. You realize I made my hatch and bane nest before you, and I have a bigger econ and larva right? Whatever 'aggressive' play you have in mind 'while taking an expansion and bane nest', you will be laughed off by my even more stronger, aggressive play. Or, even worse, I'll be defensive, and your 'aggression' will send you back into the stone age and by the time you push, I'll have hive tech and ultralisks and mommaships. You post a lot of...silly things. It doesn't make logical sense to be 'aggressive 14/14 while getting a hatch and bane' when I got mine earlier on better econ. You'll have map control for about 40 seconds until mine finishes. Then I'm simply ahead. If you made anything but drones, then I'll just roach/ling all-in you and kill you because you made 10 lings instead of 5 drones at the start for 'aggression'. Which is why hatch first is such a good build. If you don't hatch first either, I will just laugh at any aggression with banelings (against anything above 12pool, my banes will come at the same time with defenders advantage/map transit) cost efficiency. Oh your doing an 11pool double hatch +1 speedling all-in? 2 banes. Ez. After holding your 'aggression' easily, I will just roach/ling all-in you, and you will always die to it because you lack econ to support yourself, or you will die trying to defend against it. You'll just be too far behind economically from a 14/14 that made anything more than 4 lings, to survive, and you aren't going to do shit to me. | ||
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MstrJinbo
United States1251 Posts
On November 16 2011 14:13 Belial88 wrote: ^ Trust me, you would much rather have 2 bases full of drones than 1 base with zergling speed. And, I get zergling speed right after throwing down the bane nest (if I'm pressured, after I make 4 banes), so my ling speed is only about a minute behind a 14/14. What are you going to do with your map control, take a hidden expansion? Good for you, that makes us both have 2 bases and I continue on my merry way. Aggressive 14/14 is not a good decision. If I come across someone who does 14/14, and doesn't take his expansion at 21, I make a few banes to hold any possible aggression, I make 5-10 drones, and then I pump pure roaches and lings off of 1 gas, and I overrun you. There will be no way to stop my roach/ling all-in, it simply won't be possible (unless you absolutely kill all your drones into spines, which is more damage than my attack would've done anyways). You can't play 'aggressive 14/14 while getting an expansion and a bane nest'. You realize I made my hatch and bane nest before you, and I have a bigger econ and larva right? Whatever 'aggressive' play you have in mind 'while taking an expansion and bane nest', you will be laughed off by my even more stronger, aggressive play. Or, even worse, I'll be defensive, and your 'aggression' will send you back into the stone age and by the time you push, I'll have hive tech and ultralisks and mommaships. You post a lot of...silly things. It doesn't make logical sense to be 'aggressive 14/14 while getting a hatch and bane' when I got mine earlier on better econ. You'll have map control for about 40 seconds until mine finishes. Then I'm simply ahead. If you made anything but drones, then I'll just roach/ling all-in you and kill you because you made 10 lings instead of 5 drones at the start for 'aggression'. Which is why hatch first is such a good build. If you don't hatch first either, I will just laugh at any aggression with banelings (against anything above 12pool, my banes will come at the same time with defenders advantage/map transit) cost efficiency. Oh your doing an 11pool double hatch +1 speedling all-in? 2 banes. Ez. After holding your 'aggression' easily, I will just roach/ling all-in you, and you will always die to it because you lack econ to support yourself, or you will die trying to defend against it. You'll just be too far behind economically from a 14/14 that made anything more than 4 lings, to survive, and you aren't going to do shit to me. If I'm trying to be aggressive with ling/bane or Roach/ling, the guys who go 15 hatch straight into defensive banes are the most irritating thing. I just cannot attack into it. I just have to drone up and try to make up for the deficit later in the game. I've used speedling builds to break a lot of hatch first expands, but it really only should work if they do something fundamentally unsafe. | ||
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Fruitality
Vietnam45 Posts
you build a hatch while attaking no prob you can micro your lings vs banes and scare him he does not know what you got its hard for him to drone etc. | ||
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Grapefruit
Germany439 Posts
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