No he won that game. He should've lost at multiple points. Was a pretty interesting game. I really like when those 4 3/3/3 zealots did not die to a ton of lings. I think it leaves you really vulnerable early though and any smart zerg would just all in. Those shield upgrades are not cheap and neither is a nexus.

sapht

Sweden141 Posts

November 11 2011 03:54 GMT

#43

1.4.2 makes 3-3-3 a lot cheaper. It sounds so cool, realising Artosis' dream. Nexus too expensive! Buff now!

kickinhead

Switzerland2069 Posts

November 11 2011 04:18 GMT

#44

It surely has a certain viability, cuz the amount of chronoboost you get is easily worth it's weight in minerals considering you probably need 2-3 less gateways on 2 base if you constantly chrono them, just as an example. Keep in mind that not only do you have 50% more chrono-boosts, but you also don't have to spend any on probes, cuz you also have 50% higher probe-production.

I guess it's probably best suited for a very strong timing-attack with at least 2 forges, probably 3 to fully utilize the chronos.

I think that at the latest, we'll see lots more of that in HotS, cuz of the additional abilities of the Nexus - then it's probably gonna be standard to get macro-nexi at around 2-3 bases.

HMzK

74 Posts

November 11 2011 07:35 GMT

#45

Tripple forge with that chrono boost, gosu.

Markwerf

Netherlands3728 Posts

November 11 2011 08:24 GMT

#46

It's a joke build.. stop reading too much into gimmicky pro stuff all the time.
3rd nexus just for making probes faster will NEVER pay off for itself, P saturates way too quickly. Trip ups is even more of a joke obviously.

Skwid1g

United States953 Posts

November 11 2011 09:17 GMT

#47

On November 11 2011 17:24 Markwerf wrote:
It's a joke build.. stop reading too much into gimmicky pro stuff all the time.
3rd nexus just for making probes faster will NEVER pay off for itself, P saturates way too quickly. Trip ups is even more of a joke obviously.

... It's 275 for more probes and chronoboost. You pay 2 stalkers for that. Trip ups are not bad at all, shield was just too expensive before. And no, you don't saturate way too quickly unless you spend all your chronos on your nexuses, which you wouldn't have to do with this. Not saying it's 100% viable, but you are really wrong about everything you said.

Bubble-T

Australia105 Posts

November 11 2011 11:37 GMT

#48

Having watched the replay I can't believe people are seriously discussing this. At 11 minutes he has a stalker, 3 sentries, and a cannon or two. The zerg can do literally whatever they want and hits optimal drone numbers minutes earlier. With all due respect to JazBas I'm assuming he was messing around in this game too, seeing if he could just win with mass mutas after that start.

Maybe HongUn has a plan to turn this in to something but it's more likely he was just seeing how much he could get away with against a passive zerg?

zeehar

Korea (South)3804 Posts

November 11 2011 12:18 GMT

#49

triple ups simultaneously will get you hammered. HAMMERED. in any serious game.

i'm sure hongun was just messing around with this because of the lowered upgrade costs, but 350 mins and 350 gas + 450 mins for three forges + 400 for the macro nexus in the early game is brutal.

CodeskyE

United States777 Posts

November 11 2011 12:26 GMT

#50

On November 11 2011 12:18 netro008 wrote:
I saw the whole game. HongUn lost but he did say he was just trying something out

HongUn won the game. The replay is provided in this thread.

secretary bird

447 Posts

November 11 2011 12:37 GMT

#51

I think doing it with triple forges is either just silly or at best some kind of macro "cheese" where if your opponent scouts it your done but otherwise in a decent position.

But a macro Nexus is interesting on maps where you cant safely take a fast third. Your opponent wouldnt expect that thats for sure and you can saturate 3 bases much faster. And like someone mentioned the additional chrono means you can get away with less gateways. Well I dunno but I will try it lol.

Markwerf

Netherlands3728 Posts

November 11 2011 17:04 GMT

#52

A nexus for extra chrono is rediculous, a nexus hardly provides extra benefit really.

A nexus generates 0.5625 energy / second, thus 1 chrono every 44.4 seconds. Chrono lasts 20 seconds and provides 50% boost. Thus 1 nexus equals 20/ 44.4 * 1.5 + 24.4/44/4 * 1 = 1.22 faster production on 1 building if you use it exclusively on that.
In other words that extra nexus will give you 22% more production from one of your buildings.. completely not worth it.

It's never ever worth it to get a nexus if not for the mining spot, you don't need more probes faster, there are a million better ways to spend your money.

CCalms

United States341 Posts

November 11 2011 17:16 GMT

#53

I was playing around with an 8 gate all-in vs zerg that involved a fast third nexus after FFE to saturate to 48 probes insanely quickly as well as have chronoboost left over for fast warpgate and +1, but it ended up falling just behind a normal 8 gate, not worth it. In a longer game a third nexus is even less viable, chronoboost loses value and so does probe saturation.

aaycumi

England265 Posts

November 11 2011 17:25 GMT

#54

I dont see why he made an in-base nexus at 13 mins unless he built two, you have two full bases of Probes by that time and be needing to expand so you have some where to put the next lot, a load sooner.

Bane_

United Kingdom494 Posts

November 11 2011 19:34 GMT

#55

He didn't build his 3rd nexus at 13 minutes though, not in the replay I watched at least.

It was a pretty hilarious ffe like so:

10 Pylon
13 Forge
18 Nexus
18 Cannon
18 Gateway
18 Pylon
20 Nexus @ 4m40s. (in the natural right beside the 2nd nexus)
21 Assimilator
22 Assimilator
23 Cybernetics Core (finally completing the wall-off at 5m29s)

Sn0wM4

Bulgaria68 Posts

November 11 2011 20:07 GMT

#56

On November 11 2011 12:54 sapht wrote:
1.4.2 makes 3-3-3 a lot cheaper. It sounds so cool, realising Artosis' dream. Nexus too expensive! Buff now!

Cheaper?Well you can build an extra Stalker it's not really cheaper.

silverhand

United States91 Posts

November 11 2011 20:38 GMT

#57

Another thing to point out is that if HongUn was getting the 3rd "macro nexus" for extra chrono, then why was one of the three routinely at max energy in the replay?...he had to either be messing around or simply used the nexus to get probes counts up quicker.

I was intrigued by the concept, but after watching the replay, it was apparent to me that HongUn did not win that game as much as the zerg lost it. For 90% of the game it felt like at any moment the zerg was going to crush him.

When HotS comes out, it may be more viable due to Nexus spells, especially if Arc Shield replaces the need for an early forge. A 3rd quick nexus could provide the energy needed to cast sufficient Arc Shields without having to invest in a forge and cannons to fend off the early aggression. Could provide some sick 2 base turtling strats in PvZ.

Considering, the nexus grants 10 food, increases the ability to get probes out, and provides access to Chrono, Arc Shield, and Mass Recall, if you could forgo the typical forge and 1 cannon (even works out better if you normally get 2 cannons), it's a break even in HotS just when looking at the building cost. Long term, it more than pays for itself.

BoondockVeritas

United States191 Posts

November 11 2011 20:43 GMT

#58

So the message I'm getting out of this is macro Orbital and macro hatch are both awesome to have and if the Nexus wasn't the way to get income, protoss wouldn't use it because it's so bad.

I watched a replay of him doing this and under the circumstances that he was under I don't think it was a good decision at all and he probably was just playing around. I can see something like this used as an all in where you dump chrono on two forges and make 3 probes at a time to get upgrades quickly, still get workers, and not be over committing even more by actually balancing upgrades to econ to workers. Maybe it could be used as a defensive idea against zerg that are way aggressive so that you can defend on two base and still make probes at 3 base speed so if you hold and zerg drones hard aaand you can't push back, you aren't too behind in workers. I kind of want to play around with one of these ideas just a little, but until HotS it's probably going to remain a joke in most peoples eyes.

jtan_123

Australia5 Posts

November 14 2011 00:57 GMT

#59

I think a macro nexus would be really map specific and build dependent. Not just your build but the other guys build. I think it can be viable against a zerg who goes mutas for 2 reasons. Firstly, normally against a zerg the main upgrade to prioritise are the attack upgrades. Against a muta zerg however, armour is even more important (for probes). So double forging becomes pretty important. But then you won't have enough chronoboost in a zerg game, especially if you double forge (because you'll constantly be chronoboosting workers because they keep getting sniped).

Secondly (as I just said) you'll want to constantly chronoboost workers (owing to shitty anti-air stalkers), you'll constantly lose workers so the macro nexus would just help close the gap/open an economic lead against the zerg. Basically what the macro nexus will allow you to do is get more probes and constantly chronoboost double upgrades. Which works really well against a muta zerg.

It works against a muta zerg because mutas have a shitty army value (only good for harassing) so he can't really break your front, especially if the maps like Shakuras or Antiga. It would be 400 better spent on a nexus pumping out probes and chronoboost then 400 spent on 4 zealots (you could just wall and you'd only need 1 zealot).

GGPope

Australia367 Posts

November 14 2011 01:07 GMT

#60

I remember semi-jokingly theorizing this with a couple of people before, but I actually thought it might be viable for a really zany timing attack with way more upgrades than you're meant to have at that moment, or even just for a macro game (using cost efficiency granted by upgrades to defend against the early zerg max?)

Interesting to know a pro player is doing it, but HongUn does mess around a lot on his stream so I don't know how serious it actually is or whether he genuinely thinks its viable.