|
Hi TL, On HongUnPrimes Stream I saw him perform a build that consisted of 3 Nexus off 2 base against an unknown zerg (to me anyway) , which in my opinion is unreal and very unorthodox. Unfortunately I didn't get to see the whole game. I think he started with a forge fast expand. Afterwards he got a nexus for extra chrono and probes. He proceeded to get 3 Forges!! He started to get triple ups. He continued to chrono his upgrades until he had 3-3-3. He built his third around thirteen minutes. Note this game was on Antiga Shipyard creating an easier expand due to how close it is.
Ignoring what the other player decided to do what do you TL think of what HongUnPrime did? Is it worth it to get three nexus for just chrono and extra probes? Could this be valid in HOTS since the nexus will have 2 more abilties?
Discuss
Also, if anyone else has the Replay or Vod of this game please send to me so I can post thanks
[EDIT.. note I am not the greatest thread creator, so don't be too harsh on my grammar I just would really like to know what others thought of this.]
Here is the stream http://www.teamliquid.net/video/streams/HongUn watch him right now
|
first of all. Yes i believe nexus will be used maybe more than now cuz of the abilities but can you please give me link to the VoDs of that game? i am realy intrested in watching it o.o
|
Sounds really interesting. Tee most astounding thing is hearing that HongUn is building probes past the 8 minute mark! XD
Hasn't been explored yet, and probably has excellent mid-late game transitions because of superhigh saturations.
|
I wish i could find it i have been looking if someone who has the vod please post
|
Yeah, i was thinking about it sometimes to do nexus first in my main against terran, but just like triple nexus for ugrades it just pays off if you dont get pressured. And if you get forced to stay on 2 base for a while the triple probe production just dont pay off and you wasted basicly 4 zelots and a ton of mins for unusable probes...
|
Lol it seems so weird vs terran but it has never been explored so I'm thinking it could work. Although I am only low masters i don't have the calibre to put together these sorts of builds
|
Sounds like you better pray that you don't get scouted doing this since there would be a huge timing in which you have nothing and can do nothing. If the zerg stopped you from taking a third to actually use those extra probes then you essentially spent 400 mins for chronoboost, and I'm not sure it's worth it at all.
On a side note, I think we'll see a lot more double forge play against zerg. It seems like everyone has always just gone attack upgrades v zerg and never try any double upgrades (even maybe even triple since shields will be good versus zerg when paired with blink stalkers). It's extremely effective versus terran, though if your opponent is going mostly roaches it might not benefit as much.
|
Cats showed the 'macro nexus' on his stream around 2 months ago, and he doesn't even play Protoss. Anyhow, his idea was having a 140 food army by the ~16 minute mark(slightly before). But ya not triple forge lol, off 2base? Hard to tech with 3 forges pumping
|
Doesn't hongun always mess around on his stream and do crazy builds like mass carrier just because he can?
I don't see getting a macro nexus viable because by the time you get 2 bases of probes saturated using the chrono boost from the nexuses the extra one hasn't really paid for its self.
|
Macro nexus into triple ups? That does sound interesting..... shield upgrades are a lot more powerful than people give them credit for, though before the patch they cost way too much. For those saying it's a waste and 4 zealots is better, unless you actually DO something with those zealots, than the nexus is actually doing more for you, and probes can pay for themselves with mining.
Only zealots and collosus have less shield than hp on the ground(only 50 less shield than health for each). Immortals too technically, but they have the hardened shield; even though the upgrades happen before hardened shield such that a stalker would still deal only 10 damage, the strength of the shield is against slow strong attacks and weakness of hardened shield is fast small attacks like a marine, zealot, zergling, thus shield upgrades reduce the damage taken from the sources that the immortal is weakest against.
Chrono boost is also really good; normally, time is the one resource you will never get more of. With three nexii of chrono on three forges, the upgrade advantage could swing quite high. It is literally impossible for the other player to keep up to par on upgrades, since protoss can alter time to get those upgrades faster than they can.
Hopefully someone will find the VOD soon and we can see how he stays safe from attack while powering so hard.
|
I think the nexus is mainly for extra cb for the third forge, it probably would allow you to hit certain timings in the mid or late game, maybe +2/2/2 finishes right in time for a big roach push and 3/3/3 finishes just as you get maxed instead of slightly later.
As said it could also be him experimenting even though it isn't particularly a good build yet, or maybe even ever. This is how good builds are created though, through testing ridiculous ideas. Think of how bad 1-2 reapers was against zerg in beta, but then players make 15 of them and it turned out to be imbalanced.
You guys should work it out in a custom game, figure some timings you want to line up for a defensive macro game and try to make it safe vs everything, or safe until you get good scouting or something.
I think this build if you delayed gas a bit could reach full saturation in time to pay for the extra nexus, then with 3 forges being chronoed you could perhaps catch up then surpass Zerg in upgrades.
|
With the new patch and the cheaper upgrades this could be interesting. But I'm not sure its worth it getting another nexus just to chrono boost like mad
|
On November 11 2011 08:33 Whiplash wrote:
Doesn't hongun always mess around on his stream and do crazy builds like mass carrier just because he can?
I don't see getting a macro nexus viable because by the time you get 2 bases of probes saturated using the chrono boost from the nexuses the extra one hasn't really paid for its self.
I'm pretty sure he built carriers etc at mlg in big stage matches. Although he may have been screwing around then too :o
|
Your supposed to get the 3rd nexus on around 28 supply, the chrono probes to 60, which happens pretty damn fast. I think it's more viable for a 2 base all in rather than a macro game, but who knows. It's hard to give chronoboost an economic value because it can be used on so many different things (probes forge gateways).
There's no point chronoboosting upgrades if you arnt going to use that advantage (timing push). Maybe with 3 nexus you can delay a timing push that originally +1 into a +2 timing Attack by ~ 45 seconds with constant chrono.
|
On November 11 2011 08:33 Whiplash wrote:
Doesn't hongun always mess around on his stream and do crazy builds like mass carrier just because he can?
I don't see getting a macro nexus viable because by the time you get 2 bases of probes saturated using the chrono boost from the nexuses the extra one hasn't really paid for its self.
I seriously don't think he was messing around he played a really solid game. The other guy got really fast mutalisks off 3 base I believe and Hongun was able to get cannons and stalkers fast enough to help defend the harass and then take a third. The other was masssing mutas and lings and tried to deny it but muta ling isn't too good vs Forcefields and guardian shield.
|
Macro nexuses convert minerals to gas by reducing the number of production facilities required to build tech units. The trade is hard to quantify because it takes 2 nexuses to constantly chrono each production fac and reduce build time by 1/3, so the conversion is something like 1600minerals for 100-150 gas when you're on 2 production facilities building as though you had 3 facilities un-chronoboosted.
They can also be used to convert minerals into time like HongUn did on his stream.
|
I saw Catz do this when he was drunk and playing Protoss a week or so ago. He did FFE, got 3 Nexii and like 30 probes for each base (3 probes per patch = absolute maximum efficiency, but not much more than 2 per patch) and went voidray / colossus / stalker and walked out of his base, started a third and crushed Zerg horribly. I don't know if it's totally viable, but it's kind of interesting.
Could be good if you did Cruncher build and chrono upgrades like crazy (lol). It just comes down to asking yourself if you would pay 400 minerals to get your upgrades / tech units faster and get more probes faster, or use the 400 minerals to do something that you know is viable.
|
That's why I love Hongun xD
But this seems incredibly gimmicky lol - if this was HOTS where there is arc shield/recall then I can see a macro nexus being worthwhile, but WoL? nah...
|
|
|
I remember Artosis talking about how he hoped getting a macro Nexus would be a viable strat and talking about how it would confuse people when they scouted his base  .
|
I can't see how 400 minerals for nothing but more probe production and chrono boost being cost effective unless you are doing some crazy triple forge upgrade timing push...
Why not just spend the 300 and get 2 extra gateways? Or save that money for extra zealots? I'm not sure what an extra nexus actually does, it doesn't increase production like zerg (although it does to an extent with chrono boost) and it doesn't give you extra economy like terran does with orbitals and mules, supply drops and scans. That 400 minerals could also be spent on cannons at a 3rd base, then the next 400 on an actual nexus. If you were going for 3 nexus on 2 base you'd get a 3rd base eventually (again unless it's a crazy timing push) then yea I can't see why he wouldn't just spend that 400 on defense and an extra 400 on a real expand.
Even in HotS I don't think it will be worth it. Nowadays most pros will have extra chronoboost because they can't spend it completely unless they get a bunch of forges. Even in HotS that extra energy will be used on way or another and if they open forge then MAYBE they will want an extra nexus just to do recalls.
|
Couldn´t the Nexus pay itself when you can CB your Gateways hence you dont need as much of them to procude exactly the same?, with the right timmings you may even save your self a Forge or a Robo and being able to expand somehow at the same time but saturate even faster.
|
a nexus gives 10 supply, so you pay 275 minerals for the ability for extra chronoboost. and faster probe production if its very early.
since upgrades are so effective against zerg and a 3rd base outside is a risk, a makro nexus makes sense imo.
|
i know catz was doing this a little while ago... can see if i can get a rep from him, he only did it on Shakuras Plateau at that point though.
ive already considered grabbing a 3rd nexus when expoing in HOTS cause of having that extra energy for mass recall and stuff... seems like it would be beneficial
|
|
|
On November 11 2011 08:33 Whiplash wrote:
Doesn't hongun always mess around on his stream and do crazy builds like mass carrier just because he can?
I don't see getting a macro nexus viable because by the time you get 2 bases of probes saturated using the chrono boost from the nexuses the extra one hasn't really paid for its self.
This was my initial reaction as well
But Hongun has made carriers work in the GSL, so maybe he is onto something :/ who knows
|
The only thing I can think of without watching what he did was got an early 3rd down but decided to 2base production for a while and knew he could end the game with it. On a map where the 3rd is easily accessible from the natural (which is typically super close to main) I could see making the 3rd nexus and seeing something from my opponent that told me I could attack and win. Either that or he made a 3rd early but had to defend, spending all money on my combat units/defenses instead of trying to saturate the third while in combat.
|
I think you'd be better off just taking a quick third instead, because if you get scouted the result is the same: you will get attacked and punished.
|
I wouldn't take this too seriously. Hongun has a tendency to do joke builds on his stream.
Mathematically speaking, it's pretty difficult to justify the cost of a 'macro' nexus.
|
On November 11 2011 10:40 darkscream wrote:
I think you'd be better off just taking a quick third instead, because if you get scouted the result is the same: you will get attacked and punished.
Putting aside the question of if it's worth it or not, it's much easier to defend 2 bases instead of 3 on pretty much every map.
|
On November 11 2011 11:02 rale wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2011 10:40 darkscream wrote:
I think you'd be better off just taking a quick third instead, because if you get scouted the result is the same: you will get attacked and punished. Putting aside the question of if it's worth it or not, it's much easier to defend 2 bases instead of 3 on pretty much every map.
Agreed. Taking a quick third is much harder to defend especially against a zerg going muta ling. He grabs his third at 13 minutes. Once he did it was full saturation right away. During the whole game he had a tough time dealing with the mutas but after 16 minutes into the game the meta game was all very standard
|
Yea, I've seen Catz doing it, but I am glad to see a pro-protoss trying it out. Hongun tends to dominate so much on ladder that I wouldn't be surprised if he was just messing around. But I do think this type of build could be more viable in HOTS if they keep recall in the game as a nexus spell.
|
Maybe more people will start doing that in HotS. Protoss units are expensive, it's hard to find any extra minerals to throw around unless you really aren't under pressure. But if you are not under pressure, why not take a 3rd instead?
|
I'm not good enough to comment on whether or not this is viable, but come HotS when there's a very useful nexus spell, I can see building an extra late-game nexus for energy being common. When you're comfortably sitting on 3-4 bases and have a ton of minerals and drop 12 extra gateways, why not drop 9 gateways and a mass-recall station instead?
|
Canada13389 Posts
On November 11 2011 08:33 Whiplash wrote:
Doesn't hongun always mess around on his stream and do crazy builds like mass carrier just because he can?
I don't see getting a macro nexus viable because by the time you get 2 bases of probes saturated using the chrono boost from the nexuses the extra one hasn't really paid for its self.
Yeah I agree. You can saturate really really fast if all you do is chrono probes so I don't think getting the extra nexus is worth it at all. Don't forget this is HongUn ... he messes about a lot and also does some really ridiculous stuff that his superior mechanics let him get away with ... a lot.
|
A thing to note about getting an early third nexus in base is that by getting that nexus pretty early on, you can basically devote 100% of your chronoboost to either some kind of upgrade or unit production instead of trying to chronoboost out probes like a madman. I do agree that it would leave you quite vulnerable, and I think the only reasonable way to play it out is to chronoboost out Immortals and Sentries and maybe an upgrade.
It does feel incredibly unstable though for Wings of Liberty... But assuming they keep the proposed changes for Heart of the Swarm, it would definitely become more legitimate because a Nexus can do a LOT more. But that is complete theorycrafting and there's no use discussing it here.
Admittedly, the concept of attempting to abuse Chronoboost seems somewhat intriguing. I did some rough math (not 100% accurate but I'm pretty sure it's close) and according to Liquipedia the approximate amount of energy regeneration per unit/structure is about 33 energy per in game minute. Now, assuming you would want to continually chronoboost a single structure (i.e. 3 chronoboosts per minute, 75 energy a minute) you would need at least three Nexuses (Nexi? lol) to be able to cover that energy consumption.
Now as it's been pointed out previously, it's very hard to defend both a natural and a third base early on... But you could still defend your natural and main somewhat easily, and heck, I would almost consider using a Nexus as a meat shield on open maps like XNC. The disadvantage of course is that it will be immediately scouted, but by the same token you can basically completely block off an avenue of attack with the large sturdy nexus, not feel the pressure to chronoboost probes as you're pumping out three at a time, and are able to continually chronoboost either an upgrade or a unit producing structure.
Seems interesting at the very least, but very mineral heavy early on so you would have to rely very heavily on Sentries for defense. Like I said, it seems interesting, but you would need to tailor a build to make it work, it's definitely not some kind of "plug and play" kind of concept where a player could opt for a macro Nexus. You'd have to revolve your strategy around that nexus and that's something that both interests and deters me from the idea itself.
Just my two cents.
|
On November 11 2011 08:33 Whiplash wrote:
Doesn't hongun always mess around on his stream and do crazy builds like mass carrier just because he can?
I don't see getting a macro nexus viable because by the time you get 2 bases of probes saturated using the chrono boost from the nexuses the extra one hasn't really paid for its self.
Agreed, he was probably messing around for fun. Getting +3/+3/+3 for example haha. In HotS it should be even better lol. I mean it has its uses but it's not worth it in most cases.
|
HongUn does a lot of things that are for "fun", although considering what he was up against it might not have been a terrible idea.
|
He is (close enough as to make no difference anyhow) Code S, with all the game sense and mechanics that come with that status. This means he can do crazy stuff like that and dominate on ladder.
However, I am highly doubtful a macro Nexus will work against evenly-matched opposition, it does leave a huge timing window where you are waiting for the investment to pay off where your opponent can kill you or, even more likely, expand freely because you have no forces to attack him with and defend at the same time.
|
I don't see why it cant work. First of all, its crazy hard for zerg to push up a ramp and punish a turtling 2 base protoss. And Hong Un had like 3 - 3 - 3 while zerg was 1-1? This makes the protoss gateway units so powerful and allows him to establish his 3rd and 4th while spreading his troops accordingly (which is usually a problem for protoss since they can't spread out their units)
The 400 minerals spent in the nexus will be easily repaid by being able to get more probes out without having to waste any of your chronoboost on probes but upgrades.
|
I saw the whole game. HongUn lost but he did say he was just trying something out
|
On November 11 2011 12:18 netro008 wrote:
I saw the whole game. HongUn lost but he did say he was just trying something out
No he won that game. He should've lost at multiple points. Was a pretty interesting game. I really like when those 4 3/3/3 zealots did not die to a ton of lings. I think it leaves you really vulnerable early though and any smart zerg would just all in. Those shield upgrades are not cheap and neither is a nexus.
|
1.4.2 makes 3-3-3 a lot cheaper. It sounds so cool, realising Artosis' dream. Nexus too expensive! Buff now!
|
It surely has a certain viability, cuz the amount of chronoboost you get is easily worth it's weight in minerals considering you probably need 2-3 less gateways on 2 base if you constantly chrono them, just as an example. Keep in mind that not only do you have 50% more chrono-boosts, but you also don't have to spend any on probes, cuz you also have 50% higher probe-production.
I guess it's probably best suited for a very strong timing-attack with at least 2 forges, probably 3 to fully utilize the chronos.
I think that at the latest, we'll see lots more of that in HotS, cuz of the additional abilities of the Nexus - then it's probably gonna be standard to get macro-nexi at around 2-3 bases.
|
Tripple forge with that chrono boost, gosu.
|
It's a joke build.. stop reading too much into gimmicky pro stuff all the time.
3rd nexus just for making probes faster will NEVER pay off for itself, P saturates way too quickly. Trip ups is even more of a joke obviously.
|
On November 11 2011 17:24 Markwerf wrote:
It's a joke build.. stop reading too much into gimmicky pro stuff all the time.
3rd nexus just for making probes faster will NEVER pay off for itself, P saturates way too quickly. Trip ups is even more of a joke obviously.
... It's 275 for more probes and chronoboost. You pay 2 stalkers for that. Trip ups are not bad at all, shield was just too expensive before. And no, you don't saturate way too quickly unless you spend all your chronos on your nexuses, which you wouldn't have to do with this. Not saying it's 100% viable, but you are really wrong about everything you said.
|
Having watched the replay I can't believe people are seriously discussing this. At 11 minutes he has a stalker, 3 sentries, and a cannon or two. The zerg can do literally whatever they want and hits optimal drone numbers minutes earlier. With all due respect to JazBas I'm assuming he was messing around in this game too, seeing if he could just win with mass mutas after that start.
Maybe HongUn has a plan to turn this in to something but it's more likely he was just seeing how much he could get away with against a passive zerg?
|
triple ups simultaneously will get you hammered. HAMMERED. in any serious game.
i'm sure hongun was just messing around with this because of the lowered upgrade costs, but 350 mins and 350 gas + 450 mins for three forges + 400 for the macro nexus in the early game is brutal.
|
On November 11 2011 12:18 netro008 wrote:
I saw the whole game. HongUn lost but he did say he was just trying something out
HongUn won the game. The replay is provided in this thread.
|
I think doing it with triple forges is either just silly or at best some kind of macro "cheese" where if your opponent scouts it your done but otherwise in a decent position.
But a macro Nexus is interesting on maps where you cant safely take a fast third. Your opponent wouldnt expect that thats for sure and you can saturate 3 bases much faster. And like someone mentioned the additional chrono means you can get away with less gateways. Well I dunno but I will try it lol.
|
A nexus for extra chrono is rediculous, a nexus hardly provides extra benefit really.
A nexus generates 0.5625 energy / second, thus 1 chrono every 44.4 seconds. Chrono lasts 20 seconds and provides 50% boost. Thus 1 nexus equals 20/ 44.4 * 1.5 + 24.4/44/4 * 1 = 1.22 faster production on 1 building if you use it exclusively on that.
In other words that extra nexus will give you 22% more production from one of your buildings.. completely not worth it.
It's never ever worth it to get a nexus if not for the mining spot, you don't need more probes faster, there are a million better ways to spend your money.
|
I was playing around with an 8 gate all-in vs zerg that involved a fast third nexus after FFE to saturate to 48 probes insanely quickly as well as have chronoboost left over for fast warpgate and +1, but it ended up falling just behind a normal 8 gate, not worth it. In a longer game a third nexus is even less viable, chronoboost loses value and so does probe saturation.
|
I dont see why he made an in-base nexus at 13 mins unless he built two, you have two full bases of Probes by that time and be needing to expand so you have some where to put the next lot, a load sooner.
|
He didn't build his 3rd nexus at 13 minutes though, not in the replay I watched at least.
It was a pretty hilarious ffe like so:
10 Pylon
13 Forge
18 Nexus
18 Cannon
18 Gateway
18 Pylon
20 Nexus @ 4m40s. (in the natural right beside the 2nd nexus)
21 Assimilator
22 Assimilator
23 Cybernetics Core (finally completing the wall-off at 5m29s)
|
On November 11 2011 12:54 sapht wrote:
1.4.2 makes 3-3-3 a lot cheaper. It sounds so cool, realising Artosis' dream. Nexus too expensive! Buff now!
Cheaper?Well you can build an extra Stalker it's not really cheaper.
|
Another thing to point out is that if HongUn was getting the 3rd "macro nexus" for extra chrono, then why was one of the three routinely at max energy in the replay?...he had to either be messing around or simply used the nexus to get probes counts up quicker.
I was intrigued by the concept, but after watching the replay, it was apparent to me that HongUn did not win that game as much as the zerg lost it. For 90% of the game it felt like at any moment the zerg was going to crush him.
When HotS comes out, it may be more viable due to Nexus spells, especially if Arc Shield replaces the need for an early forge. A 3rd quick nexus could provide the energy needed to cast sufficient Arc Shields without having to invest in a forge and cannons to fend off the early aggression. Could provide some sick 2 base turtling strats in PvZ.
Considering, the nexus grants 10 food, increases the ability to get probes out, and provides access to Chrono, Arc Shield, and Mass Recall, if you could forgo the typical forge and 1 cannon (even works out better if you normally get 2 cannons), it's a break even in HotS just when looking at the building cost. Long term, it more than pays for itself.
|
So the message I'm getting out of this is macro Orbital and macro hatch are both awesome to have and if the Nexus wasn't the way to get income, protoss wouldn't use it because it's so bad.
I watched a replay of him doing this and under the circumstances that he was under I don't think it was a good decision at all and he probably was just playing around. I can see something like this used as an all in where you dump chrono on two forges and make 3 probes at a time to get upgrades quickly, still get workers, and not be over committing even more by actually balancing upgrades to econ to workers. Maybe it could be used as a defensive idea against zerg that are way aggressive so that you can defend on two base and still make probes at 3 base speed so if you hold and zerg drones hard aaand you can't push back, you aren't too behind in workers. I kind of want to play around with one of these ideas just a little, but until HotS it's probably going to remain a joke in most peoples eyes.
|
I think a macro nexus would be really map specific and build dependent. Not just your build but the other guys build. I think it can be viable against a zerg who goes mutas for 2 reasons. Firstly, normally against a zerg the main upgrade to prioritise are the attack upgrades. Against a muta zerg however, armour is even more important (for probes). So double forging becomes pretty important. But then you won't have enough chronoboost in a zerg game, especially if you double forge (because you'll constantly be chronoboosting workers because they keep getting sniped).
Secondly (as I just said) you'll want to constantly chronoboost workers (owing to shitty anti-air stalkers), you'll constantly lose workers so the macro nexus would just help close the gap/open an economic lead against the zerg. Basically what the macro nexus will allow you to do is get more probes and constantly chronoboost double upgrades. Which works really well against a muta zerg.
It works against a muta zerg because mutas have a shitty army value (only good for harassing) so he can't really break your front, especially if the maps like Shakuras or Antiga. It would be 400 better spent on a nexus pumping out probes and chronoboost then 400 spent on 4 zealots (you could just wall and you'd only need 1 zealot).
|
I remember semi-jokingly theorizing this with a couple of people before, but I actually thought it might be viable for a really zany timing attack with way more upgrades than you're meant to have at that moment, or even just for a macro game (using cost efficiency granted by upgrades to defend against the early zerg max?)
Interesting to know a pro player is doing it, but HongUn does mess around a lot on his stream so I don't know how serious it actually is or whether he genuinely thinks its viable.
|
I have been watching Hongun do more of this he does it quite often know if you watch his stream this is definitely not him fooling around Haha even though he is on Na server
|
hes dicking around he asks if he go triple forge/triple nexus or carriers sometimes so he totally is dicking around
|
Destiny allready mentioned this ages ago while he was talking about protoss strats. Seems interresting but i think it's start to get more viable in HotS since the nexus gets more abilities then.
|
On November 11 2011 08:46 Oreo7 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2011 08:33 Whiplash wrote:
Doesn't hongun always mess around on his stream and do crazy builds like mass carrier just because he can?
I don't see getting a macro nexus viable because by the time you get 2 bases of probes saturated using the chrono boost from the nexuses the extra one hasn't really paid for its self. I'm pretty sure he built carriers etc at mlg in big stage matches. Although he may have been screwing around then too :o
I'm pretty sure Hongun doesn't take this game that seriously when it comes to build orders, and just does whatever he feels like in every game (he is going for 2 base Carriers on his stream vs Terran right now...). He is really fun to watch and his stream has some of the best music. And if he losses, he just masses Blink Stalkers for the next game. So I wouldn't take this build too seriously.
|
United States709 Posts
Chrono boost is good, but not that good. Maybe in hits when you basically get free units from your nexus will I see it be a good option :/
|
On November 11 2011 08:33 Whiplash wrote:
Doesn't hongun always mess around on his stream and do crazy builds like mass carrier just because he can?
I don't see getting a macro nexus viable because by the time you get 2 bases of probes saturated using the chrono boost from the nexuses the extra one hasn't really paid for its self.
This. Getting a macro hatch worth it because u do not need the production buildings, getting a macro orbital worth it for the eco boost, is a investment. A macro Nexus DEMANDS more eco, it may give some chronos but you still need to paid for that more production, an eco you do not have, it is not worth it. Hongun was just messing around because is a beast.
|
On December 08 2011 00:17 DashedHopes wrote:
I have been watching Hongun do more of this he does it quite often know if you watch his stream this is definitely not him fooling around Haha even though he is on Na server
I've seen him do this at least 10 times, with a decent win rate. While I'm certainly not going to argue that it's arbitrarily
good it does have its merits. First off, it's only a 300 mineral investment counting the supply. How many times have you lost 3 zealots running away? Second, he doesn't really use it for probes. I think he does it because it's fun, and makes his viewers happy, and allows him to still beat high GM NA players. I've seen him win ridiculously lopsided battles when 2/2/2 and 3/3/3 kick in.
Still, there's always a huge timing window in this build where a roach/ling allin would invariably crush it.
|
On December 08 2011 05:50 Alem wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2011 00:17 DashedHopes wrote:
I have been watching Hongun do more of this he does it quite often know if you watch his stream this is definitely not him fooling around Haha even though he is on Na server I've seen him do this at least 10 times, with a decent win rate. While I'm certainly not going to argue that it's arbitrarily good it does have its merits. First off, it's only a 300 mineral investment counting the supply. How many times have you lost 3 zealots running away? Second, he doesn't really use it for probes. I think he does it because it's fun, and makes his viewers happy, and allows him to still beat high GM NA players. I've seen him win ridiculously lopsided battles when 2/2/2 and 3/3/3 kick in. Still, there's always a huge timing window in this build where a roach/ling allin would invariably crush it.
That's what I was thinking...seems really weak to aggressive zergs.
|
Protoss players hardly chrono boost perfectly in mid-late game, and so the chances of a macro nexus paying for itself is extremely low. Unless you get builds which will allow you to make units of chrono 8 gates instead of 11 gates, we won't be seeing this, considering it is rather vulnerable. I would love to see forge expand double nexus, with the macro nexus as part of a wall in - that would confuse the Zerg so much lol.
|
he is doing it right now on shakuras against a zerg. i saw it then googled 3 nexus two base and found this post. he gets the third nexus around 5 minutes. its pretty cool. 14 minutes in he is now useing that nexus to make a mother ship. and he has 3,3,2
|
he tried this today and got really raped on one game. but the on another one he did pretty good.. its a very risk build because he delay the gateways and the cybercore....
|
Russian Federation164 Posts
Well, that could contribute to the whole billion-WG + mass upgrade mid/late-game style for toss.. Zergtoss
Have no idea how to survive till 10+ minutes with that o_O
|
I have tried this in team games and triple forge + twilight council do require 3 nexus to chrono efficiently, of course this depends on having good scouting/passive opponent. The 3 nexus probe production can keep up with a droning zerg, perhaps this style is more fitting to PvZ.
Whether this is a viable 1v1 build, I'm unsure... an interesting topic nonetheless.
|
he did it again today:
http://www.twitch.tv/hongun/b/303884694
and sorry but i cant understand why you all are arguing about if the nexus is paying off. i just estimated it:
a nexus produces 60/17 =~ 3,5 probes per minute
his first nexus gets down @3:00 and is operational @4:30
2nd nexus gets down @4:30 and is operational @6:00
so if t is measured in minutes:
#Probes = 3.5 x t + 6 for t<4.5
#Probes = 3.5 x 4.5 + 7 x t + 6 = 7 x t + 21,75 for 4.5 < t < 6
#Probes = 7 x 1.5 + 10.5 x t + 21,75 = 10.5 x t + 32.25 for t>6
i know i totally neglected indices and chronoboost. for simplicitys sake lets assume he chrono boostet 2 or 3 times which might add 2 probes or so. i left them out because he scoutet and so on. its just an estimate ^^
so @6 min he should have ~32 probes in total mining and 3 nexus operational.
from this topic i will take the income rate per probe: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=140055#13
if there are <2 probes per mineral patch: Average Income Per harvester per minute: 41.7
if there are more than 2 but not more than 3 probes per mineral patch: Average Income Per harvester per minute: 33.2
for 2 bases we need 48 harvester on minerals for a full saturation (3 harvester per patch) and 12 harvester for our 6 gases: so 60 harvester in total (who would have guessed that??? ^^). if we get all 4 gases before we get more than 2 harvester per mineral patch, then we can get 48 probes until we have to start putting 3 probes per patch.
with only 2 nexuses we need 3.75 minutes to reach 48 probes (with the 2nd nexus finishing @4:30) so 8.25 Minutes and for 60 probes we would need ~10 minutes
@6 minutes all 3 nexuses are finished and we have 32 probes. so we can get 16 more probes before putting 3 per minerals:
10.5 x t = 16 ---> 1.5 minutes
this means @7:30 we have 48 probes and have to start putting 3 probes on each mineral patch
before fully saturated, we can make 12 more probes:
10.5 x t = 12 ---> ~1,1 minutes
so @8:36 we are fully saturated
now i want to assume the cost and income are in multiples of t minutes so that its easier ^^
for each probe we have to pay 50 minerals
we produce 3.5 probes per minute so that are 175 minerals per minute we have to pay
until each mineral patch has 2 harvesters we get 41.7 minerals per minute. this means the probes produced in 1 minute result in an increase of our income of 3.5 x 41.7 = 145.95 minerals per minute
for more than 2 but not more than 3 harvester per patch we have an increase of 116,2 minerals per minute
our macro nexus was finished @6:00 so it produces 1.5 minutes probes before there are 3 harvester per patch:
145.95 x 1.5 =~ 218 minerals
we can produce probes for another 1.1 minutes before reaching full saturation:
116.2 x 1.1 =~ 128 minerals
so this results in an net gain of 218 + 128 = 346 minerals (only for this time that we needed to reach saturation!!). if we substract the cost of a pylon from the nexus we actually gain 46 minerals by putting down the nexus @4:30.
well i have to add a few things:
first of all i didnt sleep for about 2 days now so maybe tomorrow this looks like garbage to me ^^ but at the moment all makes sense.
i had to think about the "gain". we would get those minerals anyway but with the additional nexus we got those earlier. i also neglected the cost for the probes in the end because we have to pay them anyway and after a minute or so harvesting it should be fine anyway.
and we have to acknowledge that this earlier increase in income accumulates. so compared to the saturation timing with only 2 nexuses we will get effectively more minerals until we reached the 2 nexus timings.
ok, i will have a look at this tomorrow. hopefully someone will understand my thought process ^^
btw if you watch the match you should notice that hongun ceases making probes between 8:30 and 9 minutes. he continues after the next nexus went down. if my thinking was correct i suspect that his build is not something like "dicking around" but rather a build he put some thought in it.
i really just tried to justify the mineral costs. as it looks it really does pay off after only about 2 or 2.5 minutes. so we dont even have to investigate the effective gain in resources of chronoboost... its just free ^^
i hope this all still makes sense tomorrow ^^
|
It might help you reach saturation faster, but it will cut into aggression you can do earlier. Also I think getting and holding a 3rd base is harder than having probes for it, so extra probe production probably wont help that much. The extra chronoboost will be good for some timings maybe, like you said getting 3/3 upgrades fast, but in general I think it is gimmicky and not good. After upgrades are done the chronoboost is kind of a waste...It might save you money on gateways or robos or something but i dont think it is worth it.
|
To me it seems that 3 nexus on 2 base would put to much weight on your given resources worker wise. If it had the abilities it did that HOTS promises, than I could imagine it being viable in many ways. As it currently stands though, you don't really need to dump 400 extra minerals into having higher than needed probe production and an extra chronoboost here and there. If you could take that investment than its worth it-in HOTS it would almost be a definite- and it would make the game a little bit more fun.
|
i never said anything about the purpose. i just checked if would be lost resources and it is not.
actually i just tried it on yabot
just producing probes and pylons and the nexus at the intended time. and i am pretty happy that my numbers were confirmed ^^
with only 2 nexused i get 48 probes at about 8.5 minutes and 60 at 10.1 minutes.
by adding the 3rd nexus @4:30 i reached 48 probes at 7.5 minutes and 60 at 8.7 minutes.
that makes a difference of 1.4 minutes
i tried to get gas at around the same time and to keep the saturation balanced between 2 bases (taldarim btw). i produced for 11 minutes to make sure i would fully saturate in any case. which means in the end both builds have reached the same income. so the total number of mined minerals tells me how much the build would gain in resources. and the 3 nexus build gets 295 more minerals. and since we can see the time difference of the saturation we know that we get those minerals faster.
but i have a difference in gas of about 60.... maybe i was just a bit sloppy ^^
so yabot confirmed that the nexus pays for itself 
|
I want to seriously revisit this since HongUn Prime uses this build often and i am watching him right now pull it off against ReignSlush !!
|
I tried this in a game but i think my mechanics aren't good enough to really grasp the concept of the build and various timings that may come along with this build in general, does anyone have thoughts? Or even a better understanding of what this build might impose?
|
did you even read my posts?
the build exploits the metagame as the zerg wont attack you and you will get away witz it. with this advantage you can do whatever you want :<
|
PvZ wise this might work since the Zerg is usually willing to take a fast 3rd as a response to FFE, but not necessarily a 4th. Since the Protoss usually has minerals banked once its economy kicked in, it allows for a good timing on upgrades with extra Chronoboost.
Against Terran this doesn't really work well though. While Protoss is usually fine on minerals, this is assuming a full 2 base saturation. Early on minerals is just as important as gas for holding early aggression, which Terrans will exploit because of their early game advantage with mules. Giving away 400 minerals that early will just flat out kill you.
Hong makes it work because he's that much more skilled than his opponents when he wins with this build, especially against Terran. I've actually seen him getting slaughtered doing this build against both Terran and Zerg because they just all-in him when scouting the macro nexus.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
