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I can't see how 400 minerals for nothing but more probe production and chrono boost being cost effective unless you are doing some crazy triple forge upgrade timing push...
Why not just spend the 300 and get 2 extra gateways? Or save that money for extra zealots? I'm not sure what an extra nexus actually does, it doesn't increase production like zerg (although it does to an extent with chrono boost) and it doesn't give you extra economy like terran does with orbitals and mules, supply drops and scans. That 400 minerals could also be spent on cannons at a 3rd base, then the next 400 on an actual nexus. If you were going for 3 nexus on 2 base you'd get a 3rd base eventually (again unless it's a crazy timing push) then yea I can't see why he wouldn't just spend that 400 on defense and an extra 400 on a real expand.
Even in HotS I don't think it will be worth it. Nowadays most pros will have extra chronoboost because they can't spend it completely unless they get a bunch of forges. Even in HotS that extra energy will be used on way or another and if they open forge then MAYBE they will want an extra nexus just to do recalls.
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Couldn´t the Nexus pay itself when you can CB your Gateways hence you dont need as much of them to procude exactly the same?, with the right timmings you may even save your self a Forge or a Robo and being able to expand somehow at the same time but saturate even faster.
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a nexus gives 10 supply, so you pay 275 minerals for the ability for extra chronoboost. and faster probe production if its very early.
since upgrades are so effective against zerg and a 3rd base outside is a risk, a makro nexus makes sense imo.
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i know catz was doing this a little while ago... can see if i can get a rep from him, he only did it on Shakuras Plateau at that point though.
ive already considered grabbing a 3rd nexus when expoing in HOTS cause of having that extra energy for mass recall and stuff... seems like it would be beneficial
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On November 11 2011 08:33 Whiplash wrote:
Doesn't hongun always mess around on his stream and do crazy builds like mass carrier just because he can?
I don't see getting a macro nexus viable because by the time you get 2 bases of probes saturated using the chrono boost from the nexuses the extra one hasn't really paid for its self.
This was my initial reaction as well
But Hongun has made carriers work in the GSL, so maybe he is onto something :/ who knows
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The only thing I can think of without watching what he did was got an early 3rd down but decided to 2base production for a while and knew he could end the game with it. On a map where the 3rd is easily accessible from the natural (which is typically super close to main) I could see making the 3rd nexus and seeing something from my opponent that told me I could attack and win. Either that or he made a 3rd early but had to defend, spending all money on my combat units/defenses instead of trying to saturate the third while in combat.
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I think you'd be better off just taking a quick third instead, because if you get scouted the result is the same: you will get attacked and punished.
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I wouldn't take this too seriously. Hongun has a tendency to do joke builds on his stream.
Mathematically speaking, it's pretty difficult to justify the cost of a 'macro' nexus.
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On November 11 2011 10:40 darkscream wrote:
I think you'd be better off just taking a quick third instead, because if you get scouted the result is the same: you will get attacked and punished.
Putting aside the question of if it's worth it or not, it's much easier to defend 2 bases instead of 3 on pretty much every map.
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On November 11 2011 11:02 rale wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2011 10:40 darkscream wrote:
I think you'd be better off just taking a quick third instead, because if you get scouted the result is the same: you will get attacked and punished. Putting aside the question of if it's worth it or not, it's much easier to defend 2 bases instead of 3 on pretty much every map.
Agreed. Taking a quick third is much harder to defend especially against a zerg going muta ling. He grabs his third at 13 minutes. Once he did it was full saturation right away. During the whole game he had a tough time dealing with the mutas but after 16 minutes into the game the meta game was all very standard
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Yea, I've seen Catz doing it, but I am glad to see a pro-protoss trying it out. Hongun tends to dominate so much on ladder that I wouldn't be surprised if he was just messing around. But I do think this type of build could be more viable in HOTS if they keep recall in the game as a nexus spell.
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Maybe more people will start doing that in HotS. Protoss units are expensive, it's hard to find any extra minerals to throw around unless you really aren't under pressure. But if you are not under pressure, why not take a 3rd instead?
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I'm not good enough to comment on whether or not this is viable, but come HotS when there's a very useful nexus spell, I can see building an extra late-game nexus for energy being common. When you're comfortably sitting on 3-4 bases and have a ton of minerals and drop 12 extra gateways, why not drop 9 gateways and a mass-recall station instead?
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Canada13410 Posts
On November 11 2011 08:33 Whiplash wrote:
Doesn't hongun always mess around on his stream and do crazy builds like mass carrier just because he can?
I don't see getting a macro nexus viable because by the time you get 2 bases of probes saturated using the chrono boost from the nexuses the extra one hasn't really paid for its self.
Yeah I agree. You can saturate really really fast if all you do is chrono probes so I don't think getting the extra nexus is worth it at all. Don't forget this is HongUn ... he messes about a lot and also does some really ridiculous stuff that his superior mechanics let him get away with ... a lot.
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A thing to note about getting an early third nexus in base is that by getting that nexus pretty early on, you can basically devote 100% of your chronoboost to either some kind of upgrade or unit production instead of trying to chronoboost out probes like a madman. I do agree that it would leave you quite vulnerable, and I think the only reasonable way to play it out is to chronoboost out Immortals and Sentries and maybe an upgrade.
It does feel incredibly unstable though for Wings of Liberty... But assuming they keep the proposed changes for Heart of the Swarm, it would definitely become more legitimate because a Nexus can do a LOT more. But that is complete theorycrafting and there's no use discussing it here.
Admittedly, the concept of attempting to abuse Chronoboost seems somewhat intriguing. I did some rough math (not 100% accurate but I'm pretty sure it's close) and according to Liquipedia the approximate amount of energy regeneration per unit/structure is about 33 energy per in game minute. Now, assuming you would want to continually chronoboost a single structure (i.e. 3 chronoboosts per minute, 75 energy a minute) you would need at least three Nexuses (Nexi? lol) to be able to cover that energy consumption.
Now as it's been pointed out previously, it's very hard to defend both a natural and a third base early on... But you could still defend your natural and main somewhat easily, and heck, I would almost consider using a Nexus as a meat shield on open maps like XNC. The disadvantage of course is that it will be immediately scouted, but by the same token you can basically completely block off an avenue of attack with the large sturdy nexus, not feel the pressure to chronoboost probes as you're pumping out three at a time, and are able to continually chronoboost either an upgrade or a unit producing structure.
Seems interesting at the very least, but very mineral heavy early on so you would have to rely very heavily on Sentries for defense. Like I said, it seems interesting, but you would need to tailor a build to make it work, it's definitely not some kind of "plug and play" kind of concept where a player could opt for a macro Nexus. You'd have to revolve your strategy around that nexus and that's something that both interests and deters me from the idea itself.
Just my two cents.
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On November 11 2011 08:33 Whiplash wrote:
Doesn't hongun always mess around on his stream and do crazy builds like mass carrier just because he can?
I don't see getting a macro nexus viable because by the time you get 2 bases of probes saturated using the chrono boost from the nexuses the extra one hasn't really paid for its self.
Agreed, he was probably messing around for fun. Getting +3/+3/+3 for example haha. In HotS it should be even better lol. I mean it has its uses but it's not worth it in most cases.
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HongUn does a lot of things that are for "fun", although considering what he was up against it might not have been a terrible idea.
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He is (close enough as to make no difference anyhow) Code S, with all the game sense and mechanics that come with that status. This means he can do crazy stuff like that and dominate on ladder.
However, I am highly doubtful a macro Nexus will work against evenly-matched opposition, it does leave a huge timing window where you are waiting for the investment to pay off where your opponent can kill you or, even more likely, expand freely because you have no forces to attack him with and defend at the same time.
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I don't see why it cant work. First of all, its crazy hard for zerg to push up a ramp and punish a turtling 2 base protoss. And Hong Un had like 3 - 3 - 3 while zerg was 1-1? This makes the protoss gateway units so powerful and allows him to establish his 3rd and 4th while spreading his troops accordingly (which is usually a problem for protoss since they can't spread out their units)
The 400 minerals spent in the nexus will be easily repaid by being able to get more probes out without having to waste any of your chronoboost on probes but upgrades.
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EPT
