zvp hatch first is a risky opening with high reward. This thread is meant to show/guide how to go hatch first in zvp and still come ahead depite when your hatch is blocked, cannon rushed, or pylon walled.
EDIT (11/11) Since I started this thread, I have gotten several people on bnet who wanted more replays and coaching. For you all I have found some replays of cannon contains, and continued cannon rushes at third and ect.
(EDIT, I was a low-high masters, or high-medium masters last season, and this strat works vs top 8 masters. However, I'm sure there are counters in the future meta game! Im excited to see what they are!)
IMHO the only build that beats hatch first in zvp is the proxy 2 gate. Which is why I suggest this build:
9 drone scout (to scout for 2gate, or FFE, or 3 gate expand, or gas) send 2nd ol to natural 15H 16Pool 18ol 18gas into whatever your current style is.
Probe scouts you aroudn 13 - 15 supply, sees no pool or gas so goes to block hatch
Send 2-3 drones to attack it, micro 1 drone to kill it faster, drone past 15 if needed. put down hatch.
Probe makes pylon
Send one of the 2-3 drones to take your third base, send another drone to keep on following/attack probe unless it runs back to base. Send the last drone back to min, send the 2nd ol to your third to look for any cannon rushes. (if its FFE)
The toss has opened up with FFE and is cannoning your natural and delayed his nex.
with your scouting drone, take the protoss natural, and cancel your natural expand once you force some pylons/cannons. and take your third, send your 2ndto your third. And get your pool asap. Dont get gas. squeese out drones when you can afford them.
Here the toss could do many things: However your goal is the same:
Let the proxy hatch finish, make a queen + some lings + some drones. Your first goal is to lay a creep tumor by the natural mins away from the cannons detection range. If you do this the game is basically over. The toss will either 1 base all in you, OR will take his third as his 2nd. You can lol if the toss waits for obs to then clean up the tumors to then play normally. With any drones you make, make 2 spines. to kill the pross wall, core, gates, whatever. and when you spread the creep, you can even bring the spines up if they are still alive. If you make lings, send them up to the toss main for scouting and to be annoying.
The protoss has killed the hatchery before my queen popped out
This is ok. the left over creep wil delay the nex. and you can still make a few scouting lings or even spines with the left over creep. Your 2nd, at your third will be done, you should have been droning this whole time, so play normal macro game. But kill those pesky cannon rushing pylons so you dont get warped. The protoss dropped his nex and is now trying to cannon me.
You should be able to stop this with lings and queens.
Instead of a cannon rush it was a pylon contain! This actually increased the chances of your proxy hatch queen popping out. Do exactly the same thing as a normal cannon rush except when you make your main's queen dont inject, make a creep tumor + 2 spines and kill the containt hat way. Cancel your natural, and take your third.
What if he is also trying to kill my third too while he trying to kill the proxy hatch like a gosupro?
force him to complete the pylons and cannons. cancel, and take your 4th.
I have won 90% of these crazy games. They are alot of fun, and you get yelled at alot when you win. I have this one replay on youtube right now. If you want more. PM me. friend me on sc2. and I can send you some more replays :D
Please forgive my silly jokes. And once again, this is not a self promotion for this youtube channel. Me and a friend just did it for fun. Enjoy!
My method has been, pool early (like 11p 18h), but get a drone to their natural, proxy hatch, cancel, spine crawler on the creep patch. Delays their expansion just the same, they might pull probes to attack it, and when it finishes you can uproot and hold position so it doesnt slowly die for being off creep.
Kind of similar to what you're doing but not as much cost and safer. I'll try your method though, we'll see how it goes.
I've done the proxy hatch, but never at the natural with creep tumours, I usually do in base with creep tumours so they can't build and then spine push. Your method is actually really clever.
As both a Protoss and a Zerg, this gives even more evidence why FFE is so dumb to do. I like 1gate expand so much more. Well that and early pool builds on big maps are super strong against forge expand.
It looks like a really cool build however, could not the protoss just kill your proxy hatch with cannons then go to your third and cannon that to. In your post you stated just take a 4th but what would stop him from cannoning that to. I understand every time he does this he is costing himself more minerals, would this really be putting you ahead.
Even though he invested in this in the end of the day he will be running an expansion and you'll still be contained on one base doing some tech build. If possible could you post a replay where the protoss does kill the proxy hatch before you queen comes out and makes an effort to deny your third.
On October 30 2011 07:54 bioice wrote: It looks like a really cool build however, could not the protoss just kill your proxy hatch with cannons then go to your third and cannon that to. In your post you stated just take a 4th but what would stop him from cannoning that to. I understand every time he does this he is costing himself more minerals, would this really be putting you ahead.
Even though he invested in this in the end of the day he will be running an expansion and you'll still be contained on one base doing some tech build. If possible could you post a replay where the protoss does kill the proxy hatch before you queen comes out and makes an effort to deny your third.
By that time you will have lings to stop any more shinangans. Yes I have an excellent replay where I had to hatch cancel and move like 5 times. Ill first need to go home from work to find it and post it.... What is the best posting method on here besides youtube uploads? or would you rather friend me on skype (PM) and I can send it to you that way?
On October 30 2011 08:15 NtroP wrote: Also, couldn't the protoss block the hatch going down at his nat? or would you just place it away from the mineral patches?
exactly!. they block with a probe. you can attack it or, jsut make the hatch a bit further away, in a way that still blocks the nex
On October 30 2011 07:30 darkscream wrote: Interesting take on the FFE situation...
My method has been, pool early (like 11p 18h), but get a drone to their natural, proxy hatch, cancel, spine crawler on the creep patch. Delays their expansion just the same, they might pull probes to attack it, and when it finishes you can uproot and hold position so it doesnt slowly die for being off creep.
Kind of similar to what you're doing but not as much cost and safer. I'll try your method though, we'll see how it goes.
This is also a good method! (thumbs up)
However. Having a toss rage at you for putting down creep tumors is the best thing in the whole world.
There are just a ton of holes with this approach...
You don't seem to take into account that all intelligent protoss time their cannons so they finish right after the hatch. If you are pylon contained, it literally just takes 1 pylon for every hatch that the zerg tries to put down.
Taking protoss' natural + queen is also a waste of ressources imo. In the end you can't defend your expansion and it ends up being 1base vs 1base and we all know how that goes.
Of course you don't have to take my word for it, and I'll gladly cannon rush you if you play on the EU server
You can clear up creep with cannons, an observer is not necessary. Don't think it really matters for the purpose of this build tho. (cannon detection range is 11, tumor spread range is 10)
On October 30 2011 08:31 Geiko wrote: There are just a ton of holes with this approach...
You don't seem to take into account that all intelligent protoss time their cannons so they finish right after the hatch. If you are pylon contained, it literally just takes 1 pylon for every hatch that the zerg tries to put down.
Taking protoss' natural + queen is also a waste of ressources imo. In the end you can't defend your expansion and it ends up being 1base vs 1base and we all know how that goes.
Of course you don't have to take my word for it, and I'll gladly cannon rush you if you play on the EU server
I guess I need a EU account! :D:D
But seriously, of course there are holes. Mostly because no one has seen this strat. and there hasn't been a proper response for me to make it better. This has won me 90% of games where I get cannoned rushed at the medium - high master lvl.
On October 30 2011 08:35 dementrio wrote: You can clear up creep with cannons, an observer is not necessary. Don't think it really matters for the purpose of this build tho. (cannon detection range is 11, tumor spread range is 10)
True. But you also must include the hatch creep. you are making it at the far side of the hatch creep so the detection range isn't even close
The text was a little hard to follow but the video was nice. I'm curious what you do when the FFE player does not try to cannon rush you. Great post though, I'll give this a try
Edit: Tried this against someone at my school (both master's) and it worked brilliantly. This might have to be my standard build order on maps common to FFE. Thanks EndofLine!
"Because his unit of choice is the Zealot, or more commonly known by idiots on forums as the ZEELOT." I couldn't help it. Day9 made me do it. just trying to help you out for future reference...it's pronounced zehlot...not zeeeeeeeeelot.
EPT
