On October 30 2011 08:41 KobyKat wrote: "Because his unit of choice is the Zealot, or more commonly known by idiots on forums as the ZEELOT." I couldn't help it. Day9 made me do it. just trying to help you out for future reference...it's pronounced zehlot...not zeeeeeeeeelot.
ROFLMAO!
LIES! ALL LIES!
its ZEEEEEEEEE LOT! Its how I have been saying it since Diablo 2! lol
On October 30 2011 08:40 Krayze wrote: The text was a little hard to follow but the video was nice. I'm curious what you do when the FFE player does not try to cannon rush you. Great post though, I'll give this a try
I will either do Sheth's zvt RR build (toss do not expect it off two hatches because many zergs dont hatch first) and macro behind it while harassing and doing damage, or killing sents.
Or Ill just macro hard until 8:30 - 9 min and then prepare for the usual 9:30 two base toss push, or have my army ready to deny their third while I put up my third and fourth.
On October 30 2011 08:35 dementrio wrote: You can clear up creep with cannons, an observer is not necessary. Don't think it really matters for the purpose of this build tho. (cannon detection range is 11, tumor spread range is 10)
True. But you also must include the hatch creep. you are making it at the far side of the hatch creep so the detection range isn't even close
You kill the hatch first. doesn't really matter, the delay is huge anyway.
However, the natural hatch is inconsequential, as for the exact same mineral cost they can kill it or force a cancel. It's just a way to tax their multitask. What I would be most worried is 1 base blink, but I haven't played zerg since the blink nerf.
On October 30 2011 08:35 dementrio wrote: You can clear up creep with cannons, an observer is not necessary. Don't think it really matters for the purpose of this build tho. (cannon detection range is 11, tumor spread range is 10)
True. But you also must include the hatch creep. you are making it at the far side of the hatch creep so the detection range isn't even close
You kill the hatch first. doesn't really matter, the delay is huge anyway.
However, the natural hatch is inconsequential, as for the exact same mineral cost they can kill it or force a cancel. It's just a way to tax their multitask. What I would be most worried is 1 base blink, but I haven't played zerg since the blink nerf.
you mean if they cannon rush off 1 base instead of th FFE?
lol this strat is so bad. it wont work agaisnt any competent toss who will just put 1 or 2 cannons down right when they see a hatch at their natural rofl
hatch first is quite viable on maps that don't support unbeatable lowground pylons like shakuras an TDA. TLO said it best on his channel: when he goes hatch first and his opponent canon rushes him, it's a free win for him.
On November 09 2011 07:24 IheartBANELINGS wrote: lol this strat is so bad. it wont work agaisnt any competent toss who will just put 1 or 2 cannons down right when they see a hatch at their natural rofl
Hahaha, this is a hilarious response to a cannon rush. I love it.
Also, as for a toss putting 2 cannons down at his nat to deny the proxy hatch... One, it would still finish if its 2 cannons (right? Or do 2 cannons outdamage the growth?) and if it isnt going to survive for whatever reason, 2 cannons still cost a hell of a lot more than the 100 minerals you lose for cancelling it, PLUS you've denied his natural for some time regardless, while you've presumably got an expansion building somewhere.
The only major flaw I see is something as simple as the protoss dragging a probe out to their natural to deny you building a hatchery there. It would look really damn strange to see a protoss pylon blocking you at their own natural, but I suppose it might be a happy alternative for them to having their nexus denied for an eternity (assuming they dont let the pylon finish, obviously)
A queen takes 50 seconds to complete. Hatch has 1500 health and 1 armour. Cannons deal 20 damage every 1.25 seconds (at 16 dps). Zerg regenerate at 0.27 health per game second.
(2 * 16 / 20 * 19 *50) - (0.27 * 50) = 1506.5 Number of cannons * cannon dps /cannon damage * cannon damage taking into account armour * number of seconds for a queen to build - (zerg regeneration rate per second * number of seconds for queen to build). = the amount of damage 2 cannons do in the time it takes to build a queen
Alternatively you can look at it as the cannons get to fire 40 times each (not 41 due to the projectile time) in 50 seconds, which gives the same answer.
The cannons can deal 1506.5 dmg in the time it takes a queen to spawn while the hatch only has 1500 health.
So it looks like 2 cannons finishing exactly at the same time as the hatch will kill it before a queen spawns. If theyre 1 shot late the queen will spawn. If they finish early you can cancel your hatchery having forced cannons. Really puts the pressure on the toss player to respond at the perfect time.
I'd like to try this out with you. I don't think that a hatchery in the natural is the right response. Wouldn't you be better off putting it somewhere in the main?
You can actually kill a cannon contain/Pylon contain sooooo easy... You can always take your natural at 15 if you want to. Clicking on the minerals at your natural will stack all the drones at one spot -> attack a pylon, 40-50 damage per hit which means you have to do this 4-5 times and you break through.
If I see hatch first I either take my Nexus asap or try to cannon behind the mineral line at his expansion if there is no overlord. If the cannon rush works, your hatch is done and my cannons make it useless.
I don't think 15 hatch is the way to go, that is just my personal opinion though..
On November 09 2011 17:52 rEalGuapo wrote: You can actually kill a cannon contain/Pylon contain sooooo easy... You can always take your natural at 15 if you want to. Clicking on the minerals at your natural will stack all the drones at one spot -> attack a pylon, 40-50 damage per hit which means you have to do this 4-5 times and you break through.
If I see hatch first I either take my Nexus asap or try to cannon behind the mineral line at his expansion if there is no overlord. If the cannon rush works, your hatch is done and my cannons make it useless.
I don't think 15 hatch is the way to go, that is just my personal opinion though..
assuming you're lucky to spawn in a sport were bottom ramp to the mineralpatch is closest air distance (which is not given on all maps and all start locations) and even then you're delaying mining by a great deal, because you need ALL your drones to make this trick work. But if you just don't let the contain go up (block it - if you hatch first you have to be prepared for that!) and then kill the canons at random places with ~7workers (just like one would defend vs a 2rax allin), you have successfully defeated the protoss allin and are now free to use your infinite advantage to play around with your little protoss toy as much as you want. (I like to go hydralisks of that... that's really humiliating)
the only real tricky part is, if you're not preventing him from walling in a canon or if he is rushing you with a bottom pylon powering highground canons on Shakuras or Tel'darim. Nothing you can do about that, you just lose.
On November 09 2011 17:52 rEalGuapo wrote: You can actually kill a cannon contain/Pylon contain sooooo easy... You can always take your natural at 15 if you want to. Clicking on the minerals at your natural will stack all the drones at one spot -> attack a pylon, 40-50 damage per hit which means you have to do this 4-5 times and you break through.
If I see hatch first I either take my Nexus asap or try to cannon behind the mineral line at his expansion if there is no overlord. If the cannon rush works, your hatch is done and my cannons make it useless.
I don't think 15 hatch is the way to go, that is just my personal opinion though..
assuming you're lucky to spawn in a sport were bottom ramp to the mineralpatch is closest air distance (which is not given on all maps and all start locations) and even then you're delaying mining by a great deal, because you need ALL your drones to make this trick work. But if you just don't let the contain go up (block it - if you hatch first you have to be prepared for that!) and then kill the canons at random places with ~7workers (just like one would defend vs a 2rax allin), you have successfully defeated the protoss allin and are now free to use your infinite advantage to play around with your little protoss toy as much as you want. (I like to go hydralisks of that... that's really humiliating)
the only real tricky part is, if you're not preventing him from walling in a canon or if he is rushing you with a bottom pylon powering highground canons on Shakuras or Tel'darim. Nothing you can do about that, you just lose.
I don't know a single map in starcraft 2 where your natural expansion minerals are not roughly placed in the same direction as the pylons have to be. Yes you delay mining quite a bit, on the other hand toss stopped probe production and didn't get his nexus, he is way more behind after spending these 300-450 minerals. Just think about it, you lose maybe 300 minerals over the process of killing the pylons (btw you need no more than 8-9 Probes, but propably have like 14) Protoss spend the 300 Minerals before you started losing any, this early in the game these 20 seconds delay of losing minerals are HUUUGE.
On November 09 2011 17:52 rEalGuapo wrote: You can actually kill a cannon contain/Pylon contain sooooo easy... You can always take your natural at 15 if you want to. Clicking on the minerals at your natural will stack all the drones at one spot -> attack a pylon, 40-50 damage per hit which means you have to do this 4-5 times and you break through.
If I see hatch first I either take my Nexus asap or try to cannon behind the mineral line at his expansion if there is no overlord. If the cannon rush works, your hatch is done and my cannons make it useless.
I don't think 15 hatch is the way to go, that is just my personal opinion though..
assuming you're lucky to spawn in a sport were bottom ramp to the mineralpatch is closest air distance (which is not given on all maps and all start locations) and even then you're delaying mining by a great deal, because you need ALL your drones to make this trick work. But if you just don't let the contain go up (block it - if you hatch first you have to be prepared for that!) and then kill the canons at random places with ~7workers (just like one would defend vs a 2rax allin), you have successfully defeated the protoss allin and are now free to use your infinite advantage to play around with your little protoss toy as much as you want. (I like to go hydralisks of that... that's really humiliating)
the only real tricky part is, if you're not preventing him from walling in a canon or if he is rushing you with a bottom pylon powering highground canons on Shakuras or Tel'darim. Nothing you can do about that, you just lose.
I don't know a single map in starcraft 2 where your natural expansion minerals are not roughly placed in the same direction as the pylons have to be. Yes you delay mining quite a bit, on the other hand toss stopped probe production and didn't get his nexus, he is way more behind after spending these 300-450 minerals. Just think about it, you lose maybe 300 minerals over the process of killing the pylons (btw you need no more than 8-9 Probes, but propably have like 14) Protoss spend the 300 Minerals before you started losing any, this early in the game these 20 seconds delay of losing minerals are HUUUGE.
On November 09 2011 17:52 rEalGuapo wrote: You can actually kill a cannon contain/Pylon contain sooooo easy... You can always take your natural at 15 if you want to. Clicking on the minerals at your natural will stack all the drones at one spot -> attack a pylon, 40-50 damage per hit which means you have to do this 4-5 times and you break through.
If I see hatch first I either take my Nexus asap or try to cannon behind the mineral line at his expansion if there is no overlord. If the cannon rush works, your hatch is done and my cannons make it useless.
I don't think 15 hatch is the way to go, that is just my personal opinion though..
assuming you're lucky to spawn in a sport were bottom ramp to the mineralpatch is closest air distance (which is not given on all maps and all start locations) and even then you're delaying mining by a great deal, because you need ALL your drones to make this trick work. But if you just don't let the contain go up (block it - if you hatch first you have to be prepared for that!) and then kill the canons at random places with ~7workers (just like one would defend vs a 2rax allin), you have successfully defeated the protoss allin and are now free to use your infinite advantage to play around with your little protoss toy as much as you want. (I like to go hydralisks of that... that's really humiliating)
the only real tricky part is, if you're not preventing him from walling in a canon or if he is rushing you with a bottom pylon powering highground canons on Shakuras or Tel'darim. Nothing you can do about that, you just lose.
I don't know a single map in starcraft 2 where your natural expansion minerals are not roughly placed in the same direction as the pylons have to be. Yes you delay mining quite a bit, on the other hand toss stopped probe production and didn't get his nexus, he is way more behind after spending these 300-450 minerals. Just think about it, you lose maybe 300 minerals over the process of killing the pylons (btw you need no more than 8-9 Probes, but propably have like 14) Protoss spend the 300 Minerals before you started losing any, this early in the game these 20 seconds delay of losing minerals are HUUUGE.
not sure about which exactly, but I think metalopolis 3oc position has highground with close air distance than the pylon block, all of the bases on nerzim crypt and shattered temple look like that (but it might differ from base to base). Also you can just build a gateway behind the pylon, if there is enough space for it, or more pylons and all he has to do is get that one canon up until you can start attacking it.
so the question is, if you put hatch at his natural and he immediatly puts cannon nearby (which he should do) then is it possible to get queen in time or no? If not then you pretty much lost the game because while you will be cleaning cannons at your natural he will be happily saturating his bases. And the protoss in that vod is like bronze level or? I mean everything he made was pretty much worst he could have made lol. Good protoss will made 1 cannon at your natural and cancel everything else if you cancel hatch, same with 3rd - he gonna make 1 pylon and 1 cannon and you don't know where to expand anymore..
Watch the vids fellas, A lot of your questions are answered there.
2 cannons are enough to prevent the queen if they are placed ASAP. which also means less pressure at your side of the map. However, even if the queen doesn't pop out, the hatch creep spreads! :D, so if you make a drone or lings at the natural hatch (which is now dead) you can makes spines or evos, not at all, By this time you should have another hatch already done, so you still get your natural finished before the toss.
On November 09 2011 21:19 Alpina wrote: so the question is, if you put hatch at his natural and he immediatly puts cannon nearby (which he should do) then is it possible to get queen in time or no? If not then you pretty much lost the game because while you will be cleaning cannons at your natural he will be happily saturating his bases. And the protoss in that vod is like bronze level or? I mean everything he made was pretty much worst he could have made lol. Good protoss will made 1 cannon at your natural and cancel everything else if you cancel hatch, same with 3rd - he gonna make 1 pylon and 1 cannon and you don't know where to expand anymore..
2 vids are high diamond from season 2. and the other 2 are recent 1200 masters.
EPT
