zvp hatch first is a risky opening with high reward. This thread is meant to show/guide how to go hatch first in zvp and still come ahead depite when your hatch is blocked, cannon rushed, or pylon walled.
EDIT (11/11) Since I started this thread, I have gotten several people on bnet who wanted more replays and coaching. For you all I have found some replays of cannon contains, and continued cannon rushes at third and ect.
(EDIT, I was a low-high masters, or high-medium masters last season, and this strat works vs top 8 masters. However, I'm sure there are counters in the future meta game! Im excited to see what they are!)
IMHO the only build that beats hatch first in zvp is the proxy 2 gate. Which is why I suggest this build:
9 drone scout (to scout for 2gate, or FFE, or 3 gate expand, or gas) send 2nd ol to natural 15H 16Pool 18ol 18gas into whatever your current style is.
Probe scouts you aroudn 13 - 15 supply, sees no pool or gas so goes to block hatch
Send 2-3 drones to attack it, micro 1 drone to kill it faster, drone past 15 if needed. put down hatch.
Probe makes pylon
Send one of the 2-3 drones to take your third base, send another drone to keep on following/attack probe unless it runs back to base. Send the last drone back to min, send the 2nd ol to your third to look for any cannon rushes. (if its FFE)
The toss has opened up with FFE and is cannoning your natural and delayed his nex.
with your scouting drone, take the protoss natural, and cancel your natural expand once you force some pylons/cannons. and take your third, send your 2ndto your third. And get your pool asap. Dont get gas. squeese out drones when you can afford them.
Here the toss could do many things: However your goal is the same:
Let the proxy hatch finish, make a queen + some lings + some drones. Your first goal is to lay a creep tumor by the natural mins away from the cannons detection range. If you do this the game is basically over. The toss will either 1 base all in you, OR will take his third as his 2nd. You can lol if the toss waits for obs to then clean up the tumors to then play normally. With any drones you make, make 2 spines. to kill the pross wall, core, gates, whatever. and when you spread the creep, you can even bring the spines up if they are still alive. If you make lings, send them up to the toss main for scouting and to be annoying.
The protoss has killed the hatchery before my queen popped out
This is ok. the left over creep wil delay the nex. and you can still make a few scouting lings or even spines with the left over creep. Your 2nd, at your third will be done, you should have been droning this whole time, so play normal macro game. But kill those pesky cannon rushing pylons so you dont get warped. The protoss dropped his nex and is now trying to cannon me.
You should be able to stop this with lings and queens.
Instead of a cannon rush it was a pylon contain! This actually increased the chances of your proxy hatch queen popping out. Do exactly the same thing as a normal cannon rush except when you make your main's queen dont inject, make a creep tumor + 2 spines and kill the containt hat way. Cancel your natural, and take your third.
What if he is also trying to kill my third too while he trying to kill the proxy hatch like a gosupro?
force him to complete the pylons and cannons. cancel, and take your 4th.
I have won 90% of these crazy games. They are alot of fun, and you get yelled at alot when you win. I have this one replay on youtube right now. If you want more. PM me. friend me on sc2. and I can send you some more replays :D
Please forgive my silly jokes. And once again, this is not a self promotion for this youtube channel. Me and a friend just did it for fun. Enjoy!
My method has been, pool early (like 11p 18h), but get a drone to their natural, proxy hatch, cancel, spine crawler on the creep patch. Delays their expansion just the same, they might pull probes to attack it, and when it finishes you can uproot and hold position so it doesnt slowly die for being off creep.
Kind of similar to what you're doing but not as much cost and safer. I'll try your method though, we'll see how it goes.
I've done the proxy hatch, but never at the natural with creep tumours, I usually do in base with creep tumours so they can't build and then spine push. Your method is actually really clever.
As both a Protoss and a Zerg, this gives even more evidence why FFE is so dumb to do. I like 1gate expand so much more. Well that and early pool builds on big maps are super strong against forge expand.
It looks like a really cool build however, could not the protoss just kill your proxy hatch with cannons then go to your third and cannon that to. In your post you stated just take a 4th but what would stop him from cannoning that to. I understand every time he does this he is costing himself more minerals, would this really be putting you ahead.
Even though he invested in this in the end of the day he will be running an expansion and you'll still be contained on one base doing some tech build. If possible could you post a replay where the protoss does kill the proxy hatch before you queen comes out and makes an effort to deny your third.
On October 30 2011 07:54 bioice wrote: It looks like a really cool build however, could not the protoss just kill your proxy hatch with cannons then go to your third and cannon that to. In your post you stated just take a 4th but what would stop him from cannoning that to. I understand every time he does this he is costing himself more minerals, would this really be putting you ahead.
Even though he invested in this in the end of the day he will be running an expansion and you'll still be contained on one base doing some tech build. If possible could you post a replay where the protoss does kill the proxy hatch before you queen comes out and makes an effort to deny your third.
By that time you will have lings to stop any more shinangans. Yes I have an excellent replay where I had to hatch cancel and move like 5 times. Ill first need to go home from work to find it and post it.... What is the best posting method on here besides youtube uploads? or would you rather friend me on skype (PM) and I can send it to you that way?
On October 30 2011 08:15 NtroP wrote: Also, couldn't the protoss block the hatch going down at his nat? or would you just place it away from the mineral patches?
exactly!. they block with a probe. you can attack it or, jsut make the hatch a bit further away, in a way that still blocks the nex
On October 30 2011 07:30 darkscream wrote: Interesting take on the FFE situation...
My method has been, pool early (like 11p 18h), but get a drone to their natural, proxy hatch, cancel, spine crawler on the creep patch. Delays their expansion just the same, they might pull probes to attack it, and when it finishes you can uproot and hold position so it doesnt slowly die for being off creep.
Kind of similar to what you're doing but not as much cost and safer. I'll try your method though, we'll see how it goes.
This is also a good method! (thumbs up)
However. Having a toss rage at you for putting down creep tumors is the best thing in the whole world.
There are just a ton of holes with this approach...
You don't seem to take into account that all intelligent protoss time their cannons so they finish right after the hatch. If you are pylon contained, it literally just takes 1 pylon for every hatch that the zerg tries to put down.
Taking protoss' natural + queen is also a waste of ressources imo. In the end you can't defend your expansion and it ends up being 1base vs 1base and we all know how that goes.
Of course you don't have to take my word for it, and I'll gladly cannon rush you if you play on the EU server
You can clear up creep with cannons, an observer is not necessary. Don't think it really matters for the purpose of this build tho. (cannon detection range is 11, tumor spread range is 10)
On October 30 2011 08:31 Geiko wrote: There are just a ton of holes with this approach...
You don't seem to take into account that all intelligent protoss time their cannons so they finish right after the hatch. If you are pylon contained, it literally just takes 1 pylon for every hatch that the zerg tries to put down.
Taking protoss' natural + queen is also a waste of ressources imo. In the end you can't defend your expansion and it ends up being 1base vs 1base and we all know how that goes.
Of course you don't have to take my word for it, and I'll gladly cannon rush you if you play on the EU server
I guess I need a EU account! :D:D
But seriously, of course there are holes. Mostly because no one has seen this strat. and there hasn't been a proper response for me to make it better. This has won me 90% of games where I get cannoned rushed at the medium - high master lvl.
On October 30 2011 08:35 dementrio wrote: You can clear up creep with cannons, an observer is not necessary. Don't think it really matters for the purpose of this build tho. (cannon detection range is 11, tumor spread range is 10)
True. But you also must include the hatch creep. you are making it at the far side of the hatch creep so the detection range isn't even close
The text was a little hard to follow but the video was nice. I'm curious what you do when the FFE player does not try to cannon rush you. Great post though, I'll give this a try
Edit: Tried this against someone at my school (both master's) and it worked brilliantly. This might have to be my standard build order on maps common to FFE. Thanks EndofLine!
"Because his unit of choice is the Zealot, or more commonly known by idiots on forums as the ZEELOT." I couldn't help it. Day9 made me do it. just trying to help you out for future reference...it's pronounced zehlot...not zeeeeeeeeelot.
On October 30 2011 08:41 KobyKat wrote: "Because his unit of choice is the Zealot, or more commonly known by idiots on forums as the ZEELOT." I couldn't help it. Day9 made me do it. just trying to help you out for future reference...it's pronounced zehlot...not zeeeeeeeeelot. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lf4xBHq60N8
ROFLMAO!
LIES! ALL LIES!
its ZEEEEEEEEE LOT! Its how I have been saying it since Diablo 2! lol
On October 30 2011 08:40 Krayze wrote: The text was a little hard to follow but the video was nice. I'm curious what you do when the FFE player does not try to cannon rush you. Great post though, I'll give this a try
I will either do Sheth's zvt RR build (toss do not expect it off two hatches because many zergs dont hatch first) and macro behind it while harassing and doing damage, or killing sents.
Or Ill just macro hard until 8:30 - 9 min and then prepare for the usual 9:30 two base toss push, or have my army ready to deny their third while I put up my third and fourth.
On October 30 2011 08:35 dementrio wrote: You can clear up creep with cannons, an observer is not necessary. Don't think it really matters for the purpose of this build tho. (cannon detection range is 11, tumor spread range is 10)
True. But you also must include the hatch creep. you are making it at the far side of the hatch creep so the detection range isn't even close
You kill the hatch first. doesn't really matter, the delay is huge anyway.
However, the natural hatch is inconsequential, as for the exact same mineral cost they can kill it or force a cancel. It's just a way to tax their multitask. What I would be most worried is 1 base blink, but I haven't played zerg since the blink nerf.
On October 30 2011 08:35 dementrio wrote: You can clear up creep with cannons, an observer is not necessary. Don't think it really matters for the purpose of this build tho. (cannon detection range is 11, tumor spread range is 10)
True. But you also must include the hatch creep. you are making it at the far side of the hatch creep so the detection range isn't even close
You kill the hatch first. doesn't really matter, the delay is huge anyway.
However, the natural hatch is inconsequential, as for the exact same mineral cost they can kill it or force a cancel. It's just a way to tax their multitask. What I would be most worried is 1 base blink, but I haven't played zerg since the blink nerf.
you mean if they cannon rush off 1 base instead of th FFE?
lol this strat is so bad. it wont work agaisnt any competent toss who will just put 1 or 2 cannons down right when they see a hatch at their natural rofl
hatch first is quite viable on maps that don't support unbeatable lowground pylons like shakuras an TDA. TLO said it best on his channel: when he goes hatch first and his opponent canon rushes him, it's a free win for him.
On November 09 2011 07:24 IheartBANELINGS wrote: lol this strat is so bad. it wont work agaisnt any competent toss who will just put 1 or 2 cannons down right when they see a hatch at their natural rofl
Hahaha, this is a hilarious response to a cannon rush. I love it.
Also, as for a toss putting 2 cannons down at his nat to deny the proxy hatch... One, it would still finish if its 2 cannons (right? Or do 2 cannons outdamage the growth?) and if it isnt going to survive for whatever reason, 2 cannons still cost a hell of a lot more than the 100 minerals you lose for cancelling it, PLUS you've denied his natural for some time regardless, while you've presumably got an expansion building somewhere.
The only major flaw I see is something as simple as the protoss dragging a probe out to their natural to deny you building a hatchery there. It would look really damn strange to see a protoss pylon blocking you at their own natural, but I suppose it might be a happy alternative for them to having their nexus denied for an eternity (assuming they dont let the pylon finish, obviously)
A queen takes 50 seconds to complete. Hatch has 1500 health and 1 armour. Cannons deal 20 damage every 1.25 seconds (at 16 dps). Zerg regenerate at 0.27 health per game second.
(2 * 16 / 20 * 19 *50) - (0.27 * 50) = 1506.5 Number of cannons * cannon dps /cannon damage * cannon damage taking into account armour * number of seconds for a queen to build - (zerg regeneration rate per second * number of seconds for queen to build). = the amount of damage 2 cannons do in the time it takes to build a queen
Alternatively you can look at it as the cannons get to fire 40 times each (not 41 due to the projectile time) in 50 seconds, which gives the same answer.
The cannons can deal 1506.5 dmg in the time it takes a queen to spawn while the hatch only has 1500 health.
So it looks like 2 cannons finishing exactly at the same time as the hatch will kill it before a queen spawns. If theyre 1 shot late the queen will spawn. If they finish early you can cancel your hatchery having forced cannons. Really puts the pressure on the toss player to respond at the perfect time.
I'd like to try this out with you. I don't think that a hatchery in the natural is the right response. Wouldn't you be better off putting it somewhere in the main?
You can actually kill a cannon contain/Pylon contain sooooo easy... You can always take your natural at 15 if you want to. Clicking on the minerals at your natural will stack all the drones at one spot -> attack a pylon, 40-50 damage per hit which means you have to do this 4-5 times and you break through.
If I see hatch first I either take my Nexus asap or try to cannon behind the mineral line at his expansion if there is no overlord. If the cannon rush works, your hatch is done and my cannons make it useless.
I don't think 15 hatch is the way to go, that is just my personal opinion though..
On November 09 2011 17:52 rEalGuapo wrote: You can actually kill a cannon contain/Pylon contain sooooo easy... You can always take your natural at 15 if you want to. Clicking on the minerals at your natural will stack all the drones at one spot -> attack a pylon, 40-50 damage per hit which means you have to do this 4-5 times and you break through.
If I see hatch first I either take my Nexus asap or try to cannon behind the mineral line at his expansion if there is no overlord. If the cannon rush works, your hatch is done and my cannons make it useless.
I don't think 15 hatch is the way to go, that is just my personal opinion though..
assuming you're lucky to spawn in a sport were bottom ramp to the mineralpatch is closest air distance (which is not given on all maps and all start locations) and even then you're delaying mining by a great deal, because you need ALL your drones to make this trick work. But if you just don't let the contain go up (block it - if you hatch first you have to be prepared for that!) and then kill the canons at random places with ~7workers (just like one would defend vs a 2rax allin), you have successfully defeated the protoss allin and are now free to use your infinite advantage to play around with your little protoss toy as much as you want. (I like to go hydralisks of that... that's really humiliating)
the only real tricky part is, if you're not preventing him from walling in a canon or if he is rushing you with a bottom pylon powering highground canons on Shakuras or Tel'darim. Nothing you can do about that, you just lose.
On November 09 2011 17:52 rEalGuapo wrote: You can actually kill a cannon contain/Pylon contain sooooo easy... You can always take your natural at 15 if you want to. Clicking on the minerals at your natural will stack all the drones at one spot -> attack a pylon, 40-50 damage per hit which means you have to do this 4-5 times and you break through.
If I see hatch first I either take my Nexus asap or try to cannon behind the mineral line at his expansion if there is no overlord. If the cannon rush works, your hatch is done and my cannons make it useless.
I don't think 15 hatch is the way to go, that is just my personal opinion though..
assuming you're lucky to spawn in a sport were bottom ramp to the mineralpatch is closest air distance (which is not given on all maps and all start locations) and even then you're delaying mining by a great deal, because you need ALL your drones to make this trick work. But if you just don't let the contain go up (block it - if you hatch first you have to be prepared for that!) and then kill the canons at random places with ~7workers (just like one would defend vs a 2rax allin), you have successfully defeated the protoss allin and are now free to use your infinite advantage to play around with your little protoss toy as much as you want. (I like to go hydralisks of that... that's really humiliating)
the only real tricky part is, if you're not preventing him from walling in a canon or if he is rushing you with a bottom pylon powering highground canons on Shakuras or Tel'darim. Nothing you can do about that, you just lose.
I don't know a single map in starcraft 2 where your natural expansion minerals are not roughly placed in the same direction as the pylons have to be. Yes you delay mining quite a bit, on the other hand toss stopped probe production and didn't get his nexus, he is way more behind after spending these 300-450 minerals. Just think about it, you lose maybe 300 minerals over the process of killing the pylons (btw you need no more than 8-9 Probes, but propably have like 14) Protoss spend the 300 Minerals before you started losing any, this early in the game these 20 seconds delay of losing minerals are HUUUGE.
On November 09 2011 17:52 rEalGuapo wrote: You can actually kill a cannon contain/Pylon contain sooooo easy... You can always take your natural at 15 if you want to. Clicking on the minerals at your natural will stack all the drones at one spot -> attack a pylon, 40-50 damage per hit which means you have to do this 4-5 times and you break through.
If I see hatch first I either take my Nexus asap or try to cannon behind the mineral line at his expansion if there is no overlord. If the cannon rush works, your hatch is done and my cannons make it useless.
I don't think 15 hatch is the way to go, that is just my personal opinion though..
assuming you're lucky to spawn in a sport were bottom ramp to the mineralpatch is closest air distance (which is not given on all maps and all start locations) and even then you're delaying mining by a great deal, because you need ALL your drones to make this trick work. But if you just don't let the contain go up (block it - if you hatch first you have to be prepared for that!) and then kill the canons at random places with ~7workers (just like one would defend vs a 2rax allin), you have successfully defeated the protoss allin and are now free to use your infinite advantage to play around with your little protoss toy as much as you want. (I like to go hydralisks of that... that's really humiliating)
the only real tricky part is, if you're not preventing him from walling in a canon or if he is rushing you with a bottom pylon powering highground canons on Shakuras or Tel'darim. Nothing you can do about that, you just lose.
I don't know a single map in starcraft 2 where your natural expansion minerals are not roughly placed in the same direction as the pylons have to be. Yes you delay mining quite a bit, on the other hand toss stopped probe production and didn't get his nexus, he is way more behind after spending these 300-450 minerals. Just think about it, you lose maybe 300 minerals over the process of killing the pylons (btw you need no more than 8-9 Probes, but propably have like 14) Protoss spend the 300 Minerals before you started losing any, this early in the game these 20 seconds delay of losing minerals are HUUUGE.
On November 09 2011 17:52 rEalGuapo wrote: You can actually kill a cannon contain/Pylon contain sooooo easy... You can always take your natural at 15 if you want to. Clicking on the minerals at your natural will stack all the drones at one spot -> attack a pylon, 40-50 damage per hit which means you have to do this 4-5 times and you break through.
If I see hatch first I either take my Nexus asap or try to cannon behind the mineral line at his expansion if there is no overlord. If the cannon rush works, your hatch is done and my cannons make it useless.
I don't think 15 hatch is the way to go, that is just my personal opinion though..
assuming you're lucky to spawn in a sport were bottom ramp to the mineralpatch is closest air distance (which is not given on all maps and all start locations) and even then you're delaying mining by a great deal, because you need ALL your drones to make this trick work. But if you just don't let the contain go up (block it - if you hatch first you have to be prepared for that!) and then kill the canons at random places with ~7workers (just like one would defend vs a 2rax allin), you have successfully defeated the protoss allin and are now free to use your infinite advantage to play around with your little protoss toy as much as you want. (I like to go hydralisks of that... that's really humiliating)
the only real tricky part is, if you're not preventing him from walling in a canon or if he is rushing you with a bottom pylon powering highground canons on Shakuras or Tel'darim. Nothing you can do about that, you just lose.
I don't know a single map in starcraft 2 where your natural expansion minerals are not roughly placed in the same direction as the pylons have to be. Yes you delay mining quite a bit, on the other hand toss stopped probe production and didn't get his nexus, he is way more behind after spending these 300-450 minerals. Just think about it, you lose maybe 300 minerals over the process of killing the pylons (btw you need no more than 8-9 Probes, but propably have like 14) Protoss spend the 300 Minerals before you started losing any, this early in the game these 20 seconds delay of losing minerals are HUUUGE.
not sure about which exactly, but I think metalopolis 3oc position has highground with close air distance than the pylon block, all of the bases on nerzim crypt and shattered temple look like that (but it might differ from base to base). Also you can just build a gateway behind the pylon, if there is enough space for it, or more pylons and all he has to do is get that one canon up until you can start attacking it.
so the question is, if you put hatch at his natural and he immediatly puts cannon nearby (which he should do) then is it possible to get queen in time or no? If not then you pretty much lost the game because while you will be cleaning cannons at your natural he will be happily saturating his bases. And the protoss in that vod is like bronze level or? I mean everything he made was pretty much worst he could have made lol. Good protoss will made 1 cannon at your natural and cancel everything else if you cancel hatch, same with 3rd - he gonna make 1 pylon and 1 cannon and you don't know where to expand anymore..
Watch the vids fellas, A lot of your questions are answered there.
2 cannons are enough to prevent the queen if they are placed ASAP. which also means less pressure at your side of the map. However, even if the queen doesn't pop out, the hatch creep spreads! :D, so if you make a drone or lings at the natural hatch (which is now dead) you can makes spines or evos, not at all, By this time you should have another hatch already done, so you still get your natural finished before the toss.
On November 09 2011 21:19 Alpina wrote: so the question is, if you put hatch at his natural and he immediatly puts cannon nearby (which he should do) then is it possible to get queen in time or no? If not then you pretty much lost the game because while you will be cleaning cannons at your natural he will be happily saturating his bases. And the protoss in that vod is like bronze level or? I mean everything he made was pretty much worst he could have made lol. Good protoss will made 1 cannon at your natural and cancel everything else if you cancel hatch, same with 3rd - he gonna make 1 pylon and 1 cannon and you don't know where to expand anymore..
2 vids are high diamond from season 2. and the other 2 are recent 1200 masters.
On November 09 2011 21:19 Alpina wrote: so the question is, if you put hatch at his natural and he immediatly puts cannon nearby (which he should do) then is it possible to get queen in time or no?
Situations: Cannons finish before the hatchery - cancel the hatchery after the cannons finish to waste his minerals 1 or 2 cannons finish after the hatchery - you have time to get a queen and block the base with a tumour 3 or more cannons finish after the hatchery - cancel the hatchery, you lose 75 mins, he loses at least 112 mins
I actually answered your question earlier in the thread, with the maths to explain it too.
Its not just a cannon rush that scares me but a cannon rush into chronoed zlots.
If this is stable reactionary play then I think it's an overall good shift in the metagame. I didn't like the cannon rushes every time zerg goes hatch first. It might get a little crazy, but it starts with the cannon rush. If protoss doesn't want a hatch in their base, then they can avoid that by not cannon rushing, taking their nexus and playing standard.
On November 09 2011 23:33 Fuhrmaaj wrote: If this is stable reactionary play then I think it's an overall good shift in the metagame. I didn't like the cannon rushes every time zerg goes hatch first. It might get a little crazy, but it starts with the cannon rush. If protoss doesn't want a hatch in their base, then they can avoid that by not cannon rushing, taking their nexus and playing standard.
I jee-lous of this build
If it comes the standard, which I by the way highly doubt, people will just starting patrolling probes at their own expansion and the old metagame is back again.
On November 09 2011 21:50 EndOfLine wrote: Watch the vids fellas, A lot of your questions are answered there.
2 cannons are enough to prevent the queen if they are placed ASAP. which also means less pressure at your side of the map. However, even if the queen doesn't pop out, the hatch creep spreads! :D, so if you make a drone or lings at the natural hatch (which is now dead) you can makes spines or evos, not at all, By this time you should have another hatch already done, so you still get your natural finished before the toss.
On November 09 2011 21:19 Alpina wrote: so the question is, if you put hatch at his natural and he immediatly puts cannon nearby (which he should do) then is it possible to get queen in time or no? If not then you pretty much lost the game because while you will be cleaning cannons at your natural he will be happily saturating his bases. And the protoss in that vod is like bronze level or? I mean everything he made was pretty much worst he could have made lol. Good protoss will made 1 cannon at your natural and cancel everything else if you cancel hatch, same with 3rd - he gonna make 1 pylon and 1 cannon and you don't know where to expand anymore..
2 vids are high diamond from season 2. and the other 2 are recent 1200 masters.
Yeah, that's low-mid masters. This stuff should never work vs a good protoss.
You can build a hatch at his nat, but you must cancel and have a drone at a 3rd at the same time to start a new hatch.
Why is it so detrimental to the P if a creep tumor gets planted? He can take it out with cannons, right? (right??) Or is the creep recede time in itself considered big enough of a delay to make it worth it?
(I guess the longest the delay for P exp would be cannon build time + creep recede time (+ possibly pylon build time if s/he need to build a new pylon)
So longest delay 40 + x + 25 seconds, but minimum delay = x, where x is creep recede time that I unfortunately don't know)
On November 10 2011 00:15 straycat wrote: Why is it so detrimental to the P if a creep tumor gets planted? He can take it out with cannons, right? (right??) Or is the creep recede time in itself considered big enough of a delay to make it worth it?
(I guess the longest the delay for P exp would be cannon build time + creep recede time (+ possibly pylon build time if s/he need to build a new pylon)
So longest delay 40 + x + 25 seconds, but minimum delay = x, where x is creep recede time that I unfortunately don't know)
No, omg it was mentioned so many times... he will place the tumor on the furthest edge of the creep from the cannon possible so that the detection range won't be even close. He would need to make another cannon near the tumor to kill it, however you can still make another tumor on the 2nd furthest edge xD
On October 30 2011 08:01 Paraiba wrote: Doesn't this rely on the proxy hatch not getting scouted?
The proxy hatch forces the protoss to build at least a cannon to kill it before the hatch completes or else he has to deal with zerglings in his base. If he builds a cannon, you can let it complete and then cancel the hatch and come out +75ish minerals and delay his production/tech by some time. If he doesn't build a cannon you can build lings and harass inside his base while droning up on 3 bases, delaying his production and tech.
On November 09 2011 21:50 EndOfLine wrote: Watch the vids fellas, A lot of your questions are answered there.
2 cannons are enough to prevent the queen if they are placed ASAP. which also means less pressure at your side of the map. However, even if the queen doesn't pop out, the hatch creep spreads! :D, so if you make a drone or lings at the natural hatch (which is now dead) you can makes spines or evos, not at all, By this time you should have another hatch already done, so you still get your natural finished before the toss.
On November 09 2011 21:19 Alpina wrote: so the question is, if you put hatch at his natural and he immediatly puts cannon nearby (which he should do) then is it possible to get queen in time or no? If not then you pretty much lost the game because while you will be cleaning cannons at your natural he will be happily saturating his bases. And the protoss in that vod is like bronze level or? I mean everything he made was pretty much worst he could have made lol. Good protoss will made 1 cannon at your natural and cancel everything else if you cancel hatch, same with 3rd - he gonna make 1 pylon and 1 cannon and you don't know where to expand anymore..
2 vids are high diamond from season 2. and the other 2 are recent 1200 masters.
Actually, it only takes 1 cannon to prevent the queen if the cannon is placed immediately. It ends up being extremely close. I realize that placing the cannon down immediately after the hatch is down is unrealistic, but all I have to do is also attack the hatch with 1 probe, and with 1 cannon placed 10-20 seconds after your hatch then you can't get the queen out in time.
Also if you cancel the hatch I don't "waste" 150 minerals on the cannon because I need a cannon there anyway. It's you that wastes 125 minerals.
The other thing is that a hatch block at the natural is very common, but the standard route to take is to just cancel it and use the creep to make an evo chamber. If I don't see you cancel the hatch to make an evo chamber, then I'm going to get suspicious, and play it safe and add additional cannons (with the additional cannons timed to finish after the hatch finishes so that I can cancel those if you cancel the hatch).
I know I'm sounding a bit theorycrafty (if you do this then I'll do this, etc.) but trust me I'm speaking from experience. I go FFE 100% of my PvZs, and I cannon rush in response to 15 hatch about 90% of the time. I'm also on the same team as CatZ.
On November 09 2011 21:50 EndOfLine wrote: Watch the vids fellas, A lot of your questions are answered there.
2 cannons are enough to prevent the queen if they are placed ASAP. which also means less pressure at your side of the map. However, even if the queen doesn't pop out, the hatch creep spreads! :D, so if you make a drone or lings at the natural hatch (which is now dead) you can makes spines or evos, not at all, By this time you should have another hatch already done, so you still get your natural finished before the toss.
On November 09 2011 21:19 Alpina wrote: so the question is, if you put hatch at his natural and he immediatly puts cannon nearby (which he should do) then is it possible to get queen in time or no? If not then you pretty much lost the game because while you will be cleaning cannons at your natural he will be happily saturating his bases. And the protoss in that vod is like bronze level or? I mean everything he made was pretty much worst he could have made lol. Good protoss will made 1 cannon at your natural and cancel everything else if you cancel hatch, same with 3rd - he gonna make 1 pylon and 1 cannon and you don't know where to expand anymore..
2 vids are high diamond from season 2. and the other 2 are recent 1200 masters.
Actually, it only takes 1 cannon to prevent the queen if the cannon is placed immediately. It ends up being extremely close. I realize that placing the cannon down immediately after the hatch is down is unrealistic, but all I have to do is also attack the hatch with 1 probe, and with 1 cannon placed 10-20 seconds after your hatch then you can't get the queen out in time.
Also if you cancel the hatch I don't "waste" 150 minerals on the cannon because I need a cannon there anyway. It's you that wastes 125 minerals.
The other thing is that a hatch block at the natural is very common, but the standard route to take is to just cancel it and use the creep to make an evo chamber. If I don't see you cancel the hatch to make an evo chamber, then I'm going to get suspicious, and play it safe and add additional cannons (with the additional cannons timed to finish after the hatch finishes so that I can cancel those if you cancel the hatch).
I know I'm sounding a bit theorycrafty (if you do this then I'll do this, etc.) but trust me I'm speaking from experience. I go FFE 100% of my PvZs, and I cannon rush in response to 15 hatch about 90% of the time. I'm also on the same team as CatZ.
Theorycrafty is good! This Just as much of a discussion as a guide :D
I have recently been playing around with: hatch into evo - and double expanding. Pool, then double expanded, Or just start with 17 hatch 17 hatch, then pool.
On November 09 2011 21:50 EndOfLine wrote: Watch the vids fellas, A lot of your questions are answered there.
2 cannons are enough to prevent the queen if they are placed ASAP. which also means less pressure at your side of the map. However, even if the queen doesn't pop out, the hatch creep spreads! :D, so if you make a drone or lings at the natural hatch (which is now dead) you can makes spines or evos, not at all, By this time you should have another hatch already done, so you still get your natural finished before the toss.
On November 09 2011 21:19 Alpina wrote: so the question is, if you put hatch at his natural and he immediatly puts cannon nearby (which he should do) then is it possible to get queen in time or no? If not then you pretty much lost the game because while you will be cleaning cannons at your natural he will be happily saturating his bases. And the protoss in that vod is like bronze level or? I mean everything he made was pretty much worst he could have made lol. Good protoss will made 1 cannon at your natural and cancel everything else if you cancel hatch, same with 3rd - he gonna make 1 pylon and 1 cannon and you don't know where to expand anymore..
2 vids are high diamond from season 2. and the other 2 are recent 1200 masters.
Actually, it only takes 1 cannon to prevent the queen if the cannon is placed immediately. It ends up being extremely close. I realize that placing the cannon down immediately after the hatch is down is unrealistic, but all I have to do is also attack the hatch with 1 probe, and with 1 cannon placed 10-20 seconds after your hatch then you can't get the queen out in time.
Also if you cancel the hatch I don't "waste" 150 minerals on the cannon because I need a cannon there anyway. It's you that wastes 125 minerals.
The other thing is that a hatch block at the natural is very common, but the standard route to take is to just cancel it and use the creep to make an evo chamber. If I don't see you cancel the hatch to make an evo chamber, then I'm going to get suspicious, and play it safe and add additional cannons (with the additional cannons timed to finish after the hatch finishes so that I can cancel those if you cancel the hatch).
I know I'm sounding a bit theorycrafty (if you do this then I'll do this, etc.) but trust me I'm speaking from experience. I go FFE 100% of my PvZs, and I cannon rush in response to 15 hatch about 90% of the time. I'm also on the same team as CatZ.
Theorycrafty is good! This Just as much of a discussion as a guide :D
I have recently been playing around with: hatch into evo - and double expanding. Pool, then double expanded, Or just start with 17 hatch 17 hatch, then pool.
Theorycraft is ok if you're asking questions. Theorycraft is not ok when you're trying to give advice or make a statement, even in a discussion thread.
I don't think hatch first is safe in ZvP period, and I thought that the economical rewards of it aren't even that great compared to pool first builds. I guess it can be a calculated gamble on big 4 player maps like tal darim where if I scout you last it'll be too late for me to do anything about it, but really it's just not worth it.
If for some reason you do hatch first though you really need the pool asap after it, not double expad. I'm going to follow your canceled expansion drone with a probe and follow it to your 3rd and cannon that as well, and you will never get a 2nd base up until you have lings.
On November 09 2011 23:33 Fuhrmaaj wrote: If this is stable reactionary play then I think it's an overall good shift in the metagame. I didn't like the cannon rushes every time zerg goes hatch first. It might get a little crazy, but it starts with the cannon rush. If protoss doesn't want a hatch in their base, then they can avoid that by not cannon rushing, taking their nexus and playing standard.
I jee-lous of this build
I see what you did there.... But I ask -- who needs stability when you have a hatch in their base?
I don't see quite how you'd end up ahead if the protoss were to respond with well timed cannons to kill the proxy hatch. Some have argued that those minerals are wasted, but if the protoss follows that up with a fairly greedy play like tech and taking his nat when the creep recedes, he'll want a cannon or two anyway.
Regardless, this looks hee-larious, and not many P's at my level would respond to it correctly I feel. I will definitely give it a shot
Theorycraft is ok if you're asking questions. Theorycraft is not ok when you're trying to give advice or make a statement, even in a discussion thread.
I don't think hatch first is safe in ZvP period, and I thought that the economical rewards of it aren't even that great compared to pool first builds. I guess it can be a calculated gamble on big 4 player maps like tal darim where if I scout you last it'll be too late for me to do anything about it, but really it's just not worth it.
If for some reason you do hatch first though you really need the pool asap after it, not double expad. I'm going to follow your canceled expansion drone with a probe and follow it to your 3rd and cannon that as well, and you will never get a 2nd base up until you have lings.
Currently I am able to pull this off most of the time at the 400-600 Master point range (This season, Smurf or Main account) However, perhaps when I start facing top master toss's who see something like this and know what to do asap, I wont be able too.
EPT
