• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 03:01
CEST 09:01
KST 16:01
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Power Rank - Esports World Cup 202532RSL Season 1 - Final Week8[ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall15HomeStory Cup 27 - Info & Preview18Classic wins Code S Season 2 (2025)16
Community News
BSL Team Wars - Bonyth, Dewalt, Hawk & Sziky teams2Weekly Cups (July 14-20): Final Check-up0Esports World Cup 2025 - Brackets Revealed19Weekly Cups (July 7-13): Classic continues to roll8Team TLMC #5 - Submission re-extension4
StarCraft 2
General
Power Rank - Esports World Cup 2025 RSL Revival patreon money discussion thread The GOAT ranking of GOAT rankings Esports World Cup 2025 - Final Player Roster Why doesnt SC2 scene costream tournaments
Tourneys
Esports World Cup 2025 Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament Sea Duckling Open (Global, Bronze-Diamond) FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $8000 live event RSL: Revival, a new crowdfunded tournament series
Strategy
How did i lose this ZvP, whats the proper response
Custom Maps
External Content
Mutation # 483 Kill Bot Wars Mutation # 482 Wheel of Misfortune Mutation # 481 Fear and Lava Mutation # 480 Moths to the Flame
Brood War
General
ASL20 Preliminary Maps BSL Team Wars - Bonyth, Dewalt, Hawk & Sziky teams BW General Discussion BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ Flash Announces (and Retracts) Hiatus From ASL
Tourneys
[CSLPRO] It's CSLAN Season! - Last Chance [Megathread] Daily Proleagues [BSL 2v2] ProLeague Season 3 - Friday 21:00 CET The Casual Games of the Week Thread
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers I am doing this better than progamers do.
Other Games
General Games
Nintendo Switch Thread Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread [MMORPG] Tree of Savior (Successor of Ragnarok) Path of Exile CCLP - Command & Conquer League Project
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread The Games Industry And ATVI Stop Killing Games - European Citizens Initiative
Fan Clubs
SKT1 Classic Fan Club! Maru Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
[\m/] Heavy Metal Thread Anime Discussion Thread Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece Korean Music Discussion
Sports
2024 - 2025 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 NBA General Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Ping To Win? Pings And Their…
TrAiDoS
momentary artworks from des…
tankgirl
from making sc maps to makin…
Husyelt
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Socialism Anyone?
GreenHorizons
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 617 users

[G/D] Baiting the Cannon rush FTW, ZVP hatch first - Page 3

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
Post a Reply
Prev 1 2 3 All
FirstGear
Profile Joined June 2011
Australia185 Posts
November 09 2011 12:55 GMT
#41
On November 09 2011 21:19 Alpina wrote:
so the question is, if you put hatch at his natural and he immediatly puts cannon nearby (which he should do) then is it possible to get queen in time or no?


Situations:
Cannons finish before the hatchery - cancel the hatchery after the cannons finish to waste his minerals
1 or 2 cannons finish after the hatchery - you have time to get a queen and block the base with a tumour
3 or more cannons finish after the hatchery - cancel the hatchery, you lose 75 mins, he loses at least 112 mins

I actually answered your question earlier in the thread, with the maths to explain it too.


Its not just a cannon rush that scares me but a cannon rush into chronoed zlots.
Fuhrmaaj
Profile Joined January 2011
167 Posts
November 09 2011 14:33 GMT
#42
If this is stable reactionary play then I think it's an overall good shift in the metagame. I didn't like the cannon rushes every time zerg goes hatch first. It might get a little crazy, but it starts with the cannon rush. If protoss doesn't want a hatch in their base, then they can avoid that by not cannon rushing, taking their nexus and playing standard.

I jee-lous of this build
Random player
Catgroove
Profile Joined June 2011
Sweden67 Posts
November 09 2011 14:45 GMT
#43
On November 09 2011 23:33 Fuhrmaaj wrote:
If this is stable reactionary play then I think it's an overall good shift in the metagame. I didn't like the cannon rushes every time zerg goes hatch first. It might get a little crazy, but it starts with the cannon rush. If protoss doesn't want a hatch in their base, then they can avoid that by not cannon rushing, taking their nexus and playing standard.

I jee-lous of this build


If it comes the standard, which I by the way highly doubt, people will just starting patrolling probes at their own expansion and the old metagame is back again.
T.O.P. *
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Hong Kong4685 Posts
November 09 2011 15:06 GMT
#44
On November 09 2011 21:50 EndOfLine wrote:
Watch the vids fellas, A lot of your questions are answered there.

2 cannons are enough to prevent the queen if they are placed ASAP. which also means less pressure at your side of the map. However, even if the queen doesn't pop out, the hatch creep spreads! :D, so if you make a drone or lings at the natural hatch (which is now dead) you can makes spines or evos, not at all, By this time you should have another hatch already done, so you still get your natural finished before the toss.


Show nested quote +
On November 09 2011 21:19 Alpina wrote:
so the question is, if you put hatch at his natural and he immediatly puts cannon nearby (which he should do) then is it possible to get queen in time or no? If not then you pretty much lost the game because while you will be cleaning cannons at your natural he will be happily saturating his bases. And the protoss in that vod is like bronze level or? I mean everything he made was pretty much worst he could have made lol. Good protoss will made 1 cannon at your natural and cancel everything else if you cancel hatch, same with 3rd - he gonna make 1 pylon and 1 cannon and you don't know where to expand anymore..


2 vids are high diamond from season 2. and the other 2 are recent 1200 masters.

Yeah, that's low-mid masters. This stuff should never work vs a good protoss.

You can build a hatch at his nat, but you must cancel and have a drone at a 3rd at the same time to start a new hatch.
Oracle comes in, Scvs go down, never a miscommunication.
straycat
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
230 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-09 15:15:49
November 09 2011 15:15 GMT
#45
Why is it so detrimental to the P if a creep tumor gets planted? He can take it out with cannons, right? (right??)
Or is the creep recede time in itself considered big enough of a delay to make it worth it?

(I guess the longest the delay for P exp would be cannon build time + creep recede time (+ possibly pylon build time if s/he need to build a new pylon)

So longest delay 40 + x + 25 seconds, but minimum delay = x, where x is creep recede time that I unfortunately don't know)
aintz
Profile Joined August 2010
Canada5624 Posts
November 09 2011 15:32 GMT
#46
do protoss really pylon block/cannon rush when they are doing ffe? that defeats the whole purpose of a FAST expansion

FirstGear
Profile Joined June 2011
Australia185 Posts
November 09 2011 15:39 GMT
#47
Yeah they do. Its a standard reaction to a zerg hatch firsting, because it really screws them over.
Netto.
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Poland523 Posts
November 09 2011 15:39 GMT
#48
On November 10 2011 00:15 straycat wrote:
Why is it so detrimental to the P if a creep tumor gets planted? He can take it out with cannons, right? (right??)
Or is the creep recede time in itself considered big enough of a delay to make it worth it?

(I guess the longest the delay for P exp would be cannon build time + creep recede time (+ possibly pylon build time if s/he need to build a new pylon)

So longest delay 40 + x + 25 seconds, but minimum delay = x, where x is creep recede time that I unfortunately don't know)



No, omg it was mentioned so many times... he will place the tumor on the furthest edge of the creep from the cannon possible so that the detection range won't be even close. He would need to make another cannon near the tumor to kill it, however you can still make another tumor on the 2nd furthest edge xD
Be the change you want to see in the world.
scorch-
Profile Joined January 2011
United States816 Posts
November 09 2011 15:48 GMT
#49
On October 30 2011 08:01 Paraiba wrote:
Doesn't this rely on the proxy hatch not getting scouted?


The proxy hatch forces the protoss to build at least a cannon to kill it before the hatch completes or else he has to deal with zerglings in his base. If he builds a cannon, you can let it complete and then cancel the hatch and come out +75ish minerals and delay his production/tech by some time. If he doesn't build a cannon you can build lings and harass inside his base while droning up on 3 bases, delaying his production and tech.
BrokenTV
Profile Blog Joined September 2011
Canada119 Posts
November 09 2011 16:16 GMT
#50
Interesting indeed. I have been having troubles with FFE lately, so I'll try this.
Road To Gold Blog Here! - http://www.teamliquid.net/blog/BrokenGold
rsvp
Profile Blog Joined January 2006
United States2266 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-09 19:55:24
November 09 2011 19:49 GMT
#51
On November 09 2011 21:50 EndOfLine wrote:
Watch the vids fellas, A lot of your questions are answered there.

2 cannons are enough to prevent the queen if they are placed ASAP. which also means less pressure at your side of the map. However, even if the queen doesn't pop out, the hatch creep spreads! :D, so if you make a drone or lings at the natural hatch (which is now dead) you can makes spines or evos, not at all, By this time you should have another hatch already done, so you still get your natural finished before the toss.


Show nested quote +
On November 09 2011 21:19 Alpina wrote:
so the question is, if you put hatch at his natural and he immediatly puts cannon nearby (which he should do) then is it possible to get queen in time or no? If not then you pretty much lost the game because while you will be cleaning cannons at your natural he will be happily saturating his bases. And the protoss in that vod is like bronze level or? I mean everything he made was pretty much worst he could have made lol. Good protoss will made 1 cannon at your natural and cancel everything else if you cancel hatch, same with 3rd - he gonna make 1 pylon and 1 cannon and you don't know where to expand anymore..


2 vids are high diamond from season 2. and the other 2 are recent 1200 masters.


Actually, it only takes 1 cannon to prevent the queen if the cannon is placed immediately. It ends up being extremely close. I realize that placing the cannon down immediately after the hatch is down is unrealistic, but all I have to do is also attack the hatch with 1 probe, and with 1 cannon placed 10-20 seconds after your hatch then you can't get the queen out in time.

Also if you cancel the hatch I don't "waste" 150 minerals on the cannon because I need a cannon there anyway. It's you that wastes 125 minerals.

The other thing is that a hatch block at the natural is very common, but the standard route to take is to just cancel it and use the creep to make an evo chamber. If I don't see you cancel the hatch to make an evo chamber, then I'm going to get suspicious, and play it safe and add additional cannons (with the additional cannons timed to finish after the hatch finishes so that I can cancel those if you cancel the hatch).

I know I'm sounding a bit theorycrafty (if you do this then I'll do this, etc.) but trust me I'm speaking from experience. I go FFE 100% of my PvZs, and I cannon rush in response to 15 hatch about 90% of the time. I'm also on the same team as CatZ.
EndOfLineTv
Profile Joined February 2011
United States741 Posts
November 09 2011 19:59 GMT
#52
On November 10 2011 04:49 coL.rsvp wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 09 2011 21:50 EndOfLine wrote:
Watch the vids fellas, A lot of your questions are answered there.

2 cannons are enough to prevent the queen if they are placed ASAP. which also means less pressure at your side of the map. However, even if the queen doesn't pop out, the hatch creep spreads! :D, so if you make a drone or lings at the natural hatch (which is now dead) you can makes spines or evos, not at all, By this time you should have another hatch already done, so you still get your natural finished before the toss.


On November 09 2011 21:19 Alpina wrote:
so the question is, if you put hatch at his natural and he immediatly puts cannon nearby (which he should do) then is it possible to get queen in time or no? If not then you pretty much lost the game because while you will be cleaning cannons at your natural he will be happily saturating his bases. And the protoss in that vod is like bronze level or? I mean everything he made was pretty much worst he could have made lol. Good protoss will made 1 cannon at your natural and cancel everything else if you cancel hatch, same with 3rd - he gonna make 1 pylon and 1 cannon and you don't know where to expand anymore..


2 vids are high diamond from season 2. and the other 2 are recent 1200 masters.


Actually, it only takes 1 cannon to prevent the queen if the cannon is placed immediately. It ends up being extremely close. I realize that placing the cannon down immediately after the hatch is down is unrealistic, but all I have to do is also attack the hatch with 1 probe, and with 1 cannon placed 10-20 seconds after your hatch then you can't get the queen out in time.

Also if you cancel the hatch I don't "waste" 150 minerals on the cannon because I need a cannon there anyway. It's you that wastes 125 minerals.

The other thing is that a hatch block at the natural is very common, but the standard route to take is to just cancel it and use the creep to make an evo chamber. If I don't see you cancel the hatch to make an evo chamber, then I'm going to get suspicious, and play it safe and add additional cannons (with the additional cannons timed to finish after the hatch finishes so that I can cancel those if you cancel the hatch).

I know I'm sounding a bit theorycrafty (if you do this then I'll do this, etc.) but trust me I'm speaking from experience. I go FFE 100% of my PvZs, and I cannon rush in response to 15 hatch about 90% of the time. I'm also on the same team as CatZ.



Theorycrafty is good! This Just as much of a discussion as a guide :D

I have recently been playing around with: hatch into evo - and double expanding. Pool, then double expanded, Or just start with 17 hatch 17 hatch, then pool.
rsvp
Profile Blog Joined January 2006
United States2266 Posts
November 09 2011 20:09 GMT
#53
On November 10 2011 04:59 EndOfLine wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 10 2011 04:49 coL.rsvp wrote:
On November 09 2011 21:50 EndOfLine wrote:
Watch the vids fellas, A lot of your questions are answered there.

2 cannons are enough to prevent the queen if they are placed ASAP. which also means less pressure at your side of the map. However, even if the queen doesn't pop out, the hatch creep spreads! :D, so if you make a drone or lings at the natural hatch (which is now dead) you can makes spines or evos, not at all, By this time you should have another hatch already done, so you still get your natural finished before the toss.


On November 09 2011 21:19 Alpina wrote:
so the question is, if you put hatch at his natural and he immediatly puts cannon nearby (which he should do) then is it possible to get queen in time or no? If not then you pretty much lost the game because while you will be cleaning cannons at your natural he will be happily saturating his bases. And the protoss in that vod is like bronze level or? I mean everything he made was pretty much worst he could have made lol. Good protoss will made 1 cannon at your natural and cancel everything else if you cancel hatch, same with 3rd - he gonna make 1 pylon and 1 cannon and you don't know where to expand anymore..


2 vids are high diamond from season 2. and the other 2 are recent 1200 masters.


Actually, it only takes 1 cannon to prevent the queen if the cannon is placed immediately. It ends up being extremely close. I realize that placing the cannon down immediately after the hatch is down is unrealistic, but all I have to do is also attack the hatch with 1 probe, and with 1 cannon placed 10-20 seconds after your hatch then you can't get the queen out in time.

Also if you cancel the hatch I don't "waste" 150 minerals on the cannon because I need a cannon there anyway. It's you that wastes 125 minerals.

The other thing is that a hatch block at the natural is very common, but the standard route to take is to just cancel it and use the creep to make an evo chamber. If I don't see you cancel the hatch to make an evo chamber, then I'm going to get suspicious, and play it safe and add additional cannons (with the additional cannons timed to finish after the hatch finishes so that I can cancel those if you cancel the hatch).

I know I'm sounding a bit theorycrafty (if you do this then I'll do this, etc.) but trust me I'm speaking from experience. I go FFE 100% of my PvZs, and I cannon rush in response to 15 hatch about 90% of the time. I'm also on the same team as CatZ.



Theorycrafty is good! This Just as much of a discussion as a guide :D

I have recently been playing around with: hatch into evo - and double expanding. Pool, then double expanded, Or just start with 17 hatch 17 hatch, then pool.


Theorycraft is ok if you're asking questions. Theorycraft is not ok when you're trying to give advice or make a statement, even in a discussion thread.

I don't think hatch first is safe in ZvP period, and I thought that the economical rewards of it aren't even that great compared to pool first builds. I guess it can be a calculated gamble on big 4 player maps like tal darim where if I scout you last it'll be too late for me to do anything about it, but really it's just not worth it.

If for some reason you do hatch first though you really need the pool asap after it, not double expad. I'm going to follow your canceled expansion drone with a probe and follow it to your 3rd and cannon that as well, and you will never get a 2nd base up until you have lings.
LazinCajun
Profile Joined July 2011
United States294 Posts
November 09 2011 20:10 GMT
#54
On November 09 2011 23:33 Fuhrmaaj wrote:
If this is stable reactionary play then I think it's an overall good shift in the metagame. I didn't like the cannon rushes every time zerg goes hatch first. It might get a little crazy, but it starts with the cannon rush. If protoss doesn't want a hatch in their base, then they can avoid that by not cannon rushing, taking their nexus and playing standard.

I jee-lous of this build

I see what you did there.... But I ask -- who needs stability when you have a hatch in their base?

I don't see quite how you'd end up ahead if the protoss were to respond with well timed cannons to kill the proxy hatch. Some have argued that those minerals are wasted, but if the protoss follows that up with a fairly greedy play like tech and taking his nat when the creep recedes, he'll want a cannon or two anyway.

Regardless, this looks hee-larious, and not many P's at my level would respond to it correctly I feel. I will definitely give it a shot
EndOfLineTv
Profile Joined February 2011
United States741 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-09 20:16:02
November 09 2011 20:15 GMT
#55

.


Theorycraft is ok if you're asking questions. Theorycraft is not ok when you're trying to give advice or make a statement, even in a discussion thread.

I don't think hatch first is safe in ZvP period, and I thought that the economical rewards of it aren't even that great compared to pool first builds. I guess it can be a calculated gamble on big 4 player maps like tal darim where if I scout you last it'll be too late for me to do anything about it, but really it's just not worth it.

If for some reason you do hatch first though you really need the pool asap after it, not double expad. I'm going to follow your canceled expansion drone with a probe and follow it to your 3rd and cannon that as well, and you will never get a 2nd base up until you have lings.



Currently I am able to pull this off most of the time at the 400-600 Master point range (This season, Smurf or Main account) However, perhaps when I start facing top master toss's who see something like this and know what to do asap, I wont be able too.

Regardless, it makes for an exciting game
n1ght
Profile Joined September 2011
Germany7 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-10 11:19:58
November 10 2011 00:01 GMT
#56
nice build
Prev 1 2 3 All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 2h 59m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
ProTech65
StarCraft: Brood War
Hyuk 2260
Zeus 564
ToSsGirL 259
Backho 87
Leta 84
Sacsri 49
ajuk12(nOOB) 25
NaDa 10
Dota 2
ODPixel166
XcaliburYe118
Counter-Strike
Stewie2K741
Other Games
summit1g5604
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick1191
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 14 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Berry_CruncH427
• Sammyuel 19
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• iopq 1
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• lizZardDota256
Upcoming Events
Esports World Cup
2h 59m
ByuN vs Zoun
SHIN vs TriGGeR
Cyan vs ShoWTimE
Rogue vs HeRoMaRinE
Clem vs Solar
Reynor vs Maru
herO vs Cure
Serral vs Classic
Esports World Cup
1d 2h
Esports World Cup
2 days
CranKy Ducklings
3 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
3 days
CSO Cup
3 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
3 days
Bonyth vs Sziky
Dewalt vs Hawk
Hawk vs QiaoGege
Sziky vs Dewalt
Mihu vs Bonyth
Zhanhun vs QiaoGege
QiaoGege vs Fengzi
FEL
4 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
4 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
4 days
Bonyth vs Zhanhun
Dewalt vs Mihu
Hawk vs Sziky
Sziky vs QiaoGege
Mihu vs Hawk
Zhanhun vs Dewalt
Fengzi vs Bonyth
[ Show More ]
Sparkling Tuna Cup
6 days
Online Event
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

CSL Xiamen Invitational
Championship of Russia 2025
Murky Cup #2

Ongoing

Copa Latinoamericana 4
Jiahua Invitational
BSL20 Non-Korean Championship
Esports World Cup 2025
CC Div. A S7
Underdog Cup #2
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25

Upcoming

CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
BSL Season 21
RSL Revival: Season 2
SEL Season 2 Championship
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
FEL Cracov 2025
HCC Europe
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.