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On October 28 2011 07:04 sdecker32 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2011 06:02 Big J wrote:
[This 2-3 tank timing is an allin! If Zerg kills it while keeping his infestors or mutas, he is just lightyears ahead. If Zerg does anything that isn't Muta or Infestor (like mass upgraded lings; fast speedbanes; roach/ling) it is close to impossible for a decent zerg to not trade efficently.
It is a good move to learn, but it is not a stable move in a macrogame!
I really want to get this out to you terrans, because even at my level, 80% of my TvZ wins come from crushing a 2base tank/marine push that wasn't necessary! Even when it doesn't look like an allin, but the reality is, that after this fails, Infestor and Mutalisk numbers will get out of hand, because you wasted too many precious tanks and marines, which get more superior to zerg T2 compositions, the more you have of them! Ultimatly most of those games end with terran not being able to get up a reasonable timed 3rd because of Mutaharass, then being forced to push again, losing that push again and mutanumbers going up to 30-40 until they can wipe out a terran alone. Wow, this describes almost all of my TvZ losses in games where I think I am macroing well and should be going into a solid midgame but instead get crushed. Thanks! P.S. what would you say is the most stable/safe way to transition from the hellion opening into a strong macro position assuming you are not going to punish an early third/zerg macro hatches first. When/how do you start putting the pressure back on?
Usually a Zerg that is contained by hellions will start a macro hatch inside his base around the time the spire starts, because it is pretty safe, as long as he has 2-3 spines and well timed zergling/baneling production. + Show Spoiler +(I'm usually beating those tank/marine pushes by the arival of my initial ~7 mutas, which cut reinforcement and my spine crawlers giving me enough time to get the 1-2 extra rounds of zerglings that I need. Then I can crush this push. If he tries to unsiege and run back without a reinforcing army, I can just clean it up and even keep most of my zerglings.
Most pros right now use this push only to clean out a watchtower, kill some creep if it starts to get out of zergs base with one scan and then retreat asap. It should just keep the zerg honest and his mapcontrol a little wacky
But all of those defensive measures are not enough for a good offensive move against a 3base terran! Just float out a 3rd around the time a zerg 3rd (usually his 4th hatch) should finish, if you're confident enough, you can even take it before the zerg! 3 turrets per mineral line and split your marines in 2-3 groups to chase mutalisks around. Let 2 factory tank production kick in. If you push at that time (I think this would be around 14min), you have way more eco/production to replenish armies, and your tank count is strong enough to vaporize a zerg army on its own.
If you kept your hellions alive, you can still scout with them for 3rds and 4ths and drop play should give you enough offensive potential to stay in touch with your opponent.
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this is awesome and i cant wait to utilize it.
Another transiton i'm curous about is delaying tanks in favor of quick medivacs/drops. What's the general build transition and tips for army retention?
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What do you guys think on building a bunker with your scouting scv and put your first marine inside..if u start building bunker near mineral patch it's very hard for a zerg to kill the bunker without losing mining time or producing lings. your hellion will come a little bit slower but it forces zerg to get some lings which you can toast.
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Hey Guys,
I've been doing this build in all my TvZs lately and it is pretty effective. I have a few questions :
- what is fast hive. I guess I have to scan the zergs base to decide wether I wanna push with 3 tanks, but at what time ?
- how do you decide that it is safe to float out your CC to your natural and get the orbital there, or keep it in your base and get the orbital there ?
- I understand that pre 10 min zerg 3rd is greedy so I can do a 3 tank + marines push. Do I go for the 3rd to deny it or siege up at their natural ?
- how do you defend against a two base roach ling allin with reactor hellion opening. I don't even know how to scout this. The roaches deny my hellions any scouting at their natural and by the time this push arrives to my base I can barely have a single tank out (no siege mode) and with only marines and hellions I just can't defend my natural. Or am I taking my natural too greedily without having siege mode (I normally get stim before siege mode) ?
- in general how do I scout have roach aggression incoming, without being to late (ie. bunker gets up late etc.)
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On October 29 2011 02:43 jlai wrote:
What do you guys think on building a bunker with your scouting scv and put your first marine inside..if u start building bunker near mineral patch it's very hard for a zerg to kill the bunker without losing mining time or producing lings. your hellion will come a little bit slower but it forces zerg to get some lings which you can toast.
You have to be extremely confident in your micro/macro. If it causes you to mess anything up, its not worth it. Also, if it fails, the z can roach counter for an auto win.
The key to making this strat work is to punish zergs who are to greedy with their pool timing, if your scouting scv goes into his base and sees the hatch down, but but a 15+ pool its probably good to try and bunker. You can bring around 3 scv's to help, thats up to you.
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On October 31 2011 20:25 djtopa wrote:
Hey Guys,
I've been doing this build in all my TvZs lately and it is pretty effective. I have a few questions :
- what is fast hive. I guess I have to scan the zergs base to decide wether I wanna push with 3 tanks, but at what time ?
- how do you decide that it is safe to float out your CC to your natural and get the orbital there, or keep it in your base and get the orbital there ?
- I understand that pre 10 min zerg 3rd is greedy so I can do a 3 tank + marines push. Do I go for the 3rd to deny it or siege up at their natural ?
- how do you defend against a two base roach ling allin with reactor hellion opening. I don't even know how to scout this. The roaches deny my hellions any scouting at their natural and by the time this push arrives to my base I can barely have a single tank out (no siege mode) and with only marines and hellions I just can't defend my natural. Or am I taking my natural too greedily without having siege mode (I normally get stim before siege mode) ?
- in general how do I scout have roach aggression incoming, without being to late (ie. bunker gets up late etc.)
It sounds like your answering your own questions, just think through them a little more.
1) Hive is usually around 15 min. Anything eariler would be "fast" but you 3 tank timing is much earily then that. The timing is either an allin, or an attempt to deny an early third from the zerg. Also, on big maps i like to not even push and just take a really early third of my own.
2) Keep it in your base. Folating out a cc is greedy, as it will pretty much lose to the roach push you talk about later. If you see him going roaches, you need a tank and siege mode(or siege almost done) before you can safely take you nat. Or you can take it earlier with 2+ bunkers.
3) This is up to you, it depends on map. Usually going for the third for a quick deny works for me. I don't love this kind of push though, it seems easy for the zerg to punish it, even on your way back home...
4)As soon as you stop making hellions you should get a tank and siege mode. Your probably floating gas anyway, why wait?
5) If the zerg made roaches, you ahead. I'm not even joking. Turtle up, get a quick third you go for a strong 2 base push. Mutas will be late (after 10-11min) due to gas from roaches. This is also why you need siege mode, zergs know that they need to do damage with roaches, and usually will attack you with them.
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Do this build all the time at high plat level (was low diamond but got demoted due to tvp t.t) but have trouble keeping my hellions alive even if I don't rush into his base to pick off drones. I've tried camping outside his natural and patrol moving outside his nat but I find that after a min or 2 he'll mass up 20 or so lings (around the time he wants to break the contain and take his contain, so before 9 mins if being greedy) and surround the hellions. My APM isn't quick enough to jump back to the hellions in time and get them out so I usually lose them.
Am I better off just sitting at his 3rd, or keeping 1 of them at his third? At my level it just seems too difficult to keep a constant eye on them when I'm macroing up back home.
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On October 31 2011 20:25 djtopa wrote:
Hey Guys,
I've been doing this build in all my TvZs lately and it is pretty effective. I have a few questions :
- what is fast hive. I guess I have to scan the zergs base to decide wether I wanna push with 3 tanks, but at what time ?
- how do you decide that it is safe to float out your CC to your natural and get the orbital there, or keep it in your base and get the orbital there ?
- I understand that pre 10 min zerg 3rd is greedy so I can do a 3 tank + marines push. Do I go for the 3rd to deny it or siege up at their natural ?
- how do you defend against a two base roach ling allin with reactor hellion opening. I don't even know how to scout this. The roaches deny my hellions any scouting at their natural and by the time this push arrives to my base I can barely have a single tank out (no siege mode) and with only marines and hellions I just can't defend my natural. Or am I taking my natural too greedily without having siege mode (I normally get stim before siege mode) ?
- in general how do I scout have roach aggression incoming, without being to late (ie. bunker gets up late etc.)
I float my CC out, when it finishes before morphing it into an Orbital, then build a Bunker at my nat. I also get one marrauder from my rax to be safe. With this variation, you can have your 3rd Rax much sooner and you will have 1 Marrauder and 2 Marines in a Bunker, with a tank comming out. Your hellions should scout the roaches comming and you should send them back without loosing one. With reparing the Bunker and tank you should be really safe against roach rushes.
I only push out, when i scout a fast third with my hellions and my opponent doesn´t have many units active on the map. But on some maps i attack the natrual and set up a Bunker/Turret contain. That gave me easy wins aggainst bad macroing Zergs.
I never faced a roach/bling allin, but you should have your siege mode started when you build your 2nd Tank. He needs a lot of time to prepare this push, try to scout his Dronecount on his nat with your hellions. Everytime you see a low dronecount, you should increase your defense, because there is no other reason for Zerg to have a low dronecount if you don´t want to attack.
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I really like this opening and been trying to play it more. I used to do 2 Rax Bunker pressure but it seems the Zergs now know how to easily defend it and I end up behind (Plat league - not the best micro here).
My problem is that I don't want to use tanks at all in my TvZ (Just something I want to try). I usually transition into a lot of Marines and early +1/+1 upgrades and then keep on upgrading without pause to +3/+3 marines. I add Medivacs and slowly more Starports for mid to late game Ravens with full upgrades. Usually, I start dropping a lot once the Zerg has a 4th/5th and try to defend my own 3rd/4th. I literally throw full Medivacs at each of his bases and with 3/3 Marines that can do quite a lot of damage. If no Mutas, I send some Ravens to accompany them for support. Once I got about 7-10 Ravens out, I can easly push from the front with either slow Auto-Turrent Push or fast aggresive Seeker Missile on Baneling/Infestors. ->Most of the time I lose if the drops do hardly any damage. (But there is no greater feeling if you drop the Zerg in 3+ places at once and he can't handle them all.)
My problem is that without tanks I can hardly pressure the Zerg after the Hellions and because I go for fast upgrades my Medivas usually come out too late for drops before Mutas hit. The biggest problem obviously are Banelings for a full frontal attack because my Marine splitting isn't MKP's... 
Is there a way to keep pressure up right after the Hellion opening without tanks?
I could change by BO a bit maybe use cloaked Banshees before upgrading (since I will need the Tech Lab Starport anyway) but this delays Medivacs & Upgrades and the Zerg usually has Mutas and/or Infestors up (or soon up) and Spore + Muta/Infestor shuts down cloaked Banshee with ease.
Or maybe more Hellion with Blue Flame if he isn't going Roaches? But they are a lot of minerals -> fewer Marines when Mutas hit.
Any ideas how to transition of of this without tanks?
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Guys, currently zerg are really good at defending the hellion into tank marine push. So just stop doing it. The only time where you want to do this is when the zerg takes a fast 3rd. Otherwise your making a bet that is not in your favor. If your hellions are successful in delaying the zerg from taking a 3rd until mutas pop, then you have done sufficient damage. I would suggest 6 hellions to anyone below a high level as its easy for zerg to pop out with a group of zerglings and get 4 hellions but 6 needs alot more lings.
Realize that if you hold back, you can take a quicker third, make more marines, and turrets, I suggest heavy marine play (1 factory tanks) at this point since its much easier to defend muta harass if you have enough marines/medivacs to form multiple muta fighting groups. Your goal at this point is upgrading the shit out of your bio.
Once on 3 base your next goal is to ramp up tank production and start ghost production. Your ultimate composition is 10-15 or more ghosts with cloak + tanks and marines. Once you have a ton of ghosts you are in a much better position and can just sit back and do damage with 8marine drops. Once you get enough tanks, you need to move up and take a forward position where you can defend your 4th and at the same time increase turret building everywhere on the outskirts of your base.
Realize that once the zerg has expanded to 4+ bases he is much more vulnerable to drop play, no matter how good he is.
This is my opinion is the perfect TvZ game.
Notes:
If you take some damage from muta harass, you may have to delay ghost production, but you need to scan for hive, if you see hive up you need to stop everything but ghost production because you will be screwed against broodlord infestors if you dont have plenty of ghosts, make sure you start the energy upgrade 20seconds before ghost production.
You need more tanks and less marines if infestor opening instead of mutas. But you should still have a shitload of marines as this is how terran functions.
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I really want to get this out to you terrans, because even at my level, 80% of my TvZ wins come from crushing a 2base tank/marine push that wasn't necessary! Even when it doesn't look like an allin, but the reality is, that after this fails, Infestor and Mutalisk numbers will get out of hand, because you wasted too many precious tanks and marines, which get more superior to zerg T2 compositions, the more you have of them! Ultimatly most of those games end with terran not being able to get up a reasonable timed 3rd because of Mutaharass, then being forced to push again, losing that push again and mutanumbers going up to 30-40 until they can wipe out a terran alone.
I don't agree with this at all. If the terran executes the push effectively, it is not an all in at all. Zerg needs to trade efficiently with terran in order for the game to continue. If zerg can't break the push, the game is over. Terran needs to not get so greedy with his/her offensive tank positioning, and needs to continuously apply pressure. TvZ is all about trades.
Likewise, you should never ever EVER rally units to your first push. EVER. Always rally back to your base while securing a third and teching to starport and 1-1. If you rally to your push, then you're all inning, and might as well stop scv production as well.
I've seen a countless amount of replays where zerg will defend the first push with terran losing 3-4 tanks and 20 marines, and terran will still win the game. the siege tank positioning is key, just don't get caught out of position. Your hellions don't need to do harrass either. If your first push forces units, and does damage, the large muta ball you fear won't be out until a minute or two later than normal. Around 11-12 minutes in game. If he decides to get early muta, he will have 6 at most. If you've been rallying back to your base you should have more than enough marines with combat/stim to deal with the mutas while sustaining minimal losses.
Furthermore, watch the day9 daily that was linked in this thread fast forward to the EmpireKas game, and you will see what I'm talking about. The push is thwarted, but the significant damage was done with the push results slightly favoring terran. It's all about momentum.
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Hi guys, I have a question about this build. I'm a silver level player and I have one build that I basically do against each race, and this is my TvZ build. My question is about the stim timing in this build and also about what to do directly after you've finished making hellions.
With this build I make 4 hellions while I create a tech lab on my barracks. What I used to do before reading this thread was I would swap my barrack & factory as soon as my 4th hellion was out and build a 2nd barracks. Then I would immediately start tank + double marine production. When my 2nd barracks finished I would add a tech lab. I felt that this got me a decent marine/tank count early on with siege mode, however my stim is obviously delayed as I favored tank production over stim.
After reading this thread I thought I would try this build which is slightly different in the sense that you build the tech lab on the barracks but after your hellions are complete you build your 2nd rax on the reactor and a tech lab on your factory while starting stim on your 1st barracks. I tried this build in practice and in actual games MANY times and I felt that I was never able to get the same marine/tank count in a reasonable time which led to weaker/later pushes overall. Yes, I had stim but without medivacs it doesn't always seem like the best idea to stim my marines. The one thing I really did like about this build was that if I saw roaches early on I already had a tech lab barracks that I could use for marauder production and in fact most games I would just blind make a marauder anyway. After a week or so of trying this build I switched back to my original method with what I think are better results.
Was I just doing this build wrong or am I stating the obvious by saying that this build results in a lower marine/tank count. Is having an earlier stim really that great without medivacs?
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jnc - Opening hellions significantly reduces your marine count. Even if you skipped tanks to go to starport tech right away, you won't have marine upgrades or a high marine count to make the drop worthwhile. If you want to go for fast drops then transition into marine-tank-medivac, you might want to look into trying HansK's 1-1 16 marine drop opening. I can personally state that said build has been very successful and safe in my TvZs (Plat). The downside to it is that you relinquish map control, but it's one of the best openings if you want to go for a fast and potent drop.
Elbows - Stim w/o medivacs do more harm than good unless your control is top notch. Most people will end up stimming unnecessarily, and their own tanks will kill the weakened marines when the Zerg army runs in. The Zerg can wait until the stim runs out to engage as well. Furthermore, without combat shields, a stimmed marine gets 1-hit by banelings--devastating if you misclick. Since the research time for stim is significantly longer, you will have more marines which adds to the amount of damage you do to yourself when marines stim. On the other hand, Zerg will have more time to prepare for the push, further weakening your own push.
I wouldn't even push until I had both stim and combat shields with medivacs + a lot more tanks. Use the initial 4 hellions to poke around in the meantime, or even load them up on your first medivac for drop harass.
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On November 17 2011 05:23 Waah wrote:
Elbows - Stim w/o medivacs do more harm than good unless your control is top notch. Most people will end up stimming unnecessarily, and their own tanks will kill the weakened marines when the Zerg army runs in. The Zerg can wait until the stim runs out to engage as well. Furthermore, without combat shields, a stimmed marine gets 1-hit by banelings--devastating if you misclick. Since the research time for stim is significantly longer, you will have more marines which adds to the amount of damage you do to yourself when marines stim. On the other hand, Zerg will have more time to prepare for the push, further weakening your own push.
I wouldn't even push until I had both stim and combat shields with medivacs + a lot more tanks. Use the initial 4 hellions to poke around in the meantime, or even load them up on your first medivac for drop harass.
Yea it's worth mentioning that I don't just push for no reason. If the zerg isn't taking an early 3rd then I usually just try to clear out creep tumors and get my 3rd up, which in a way is another reason I don't feel like early stim is really that useful since what's the point of having it early if you're not going to use it?
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On November 17 2011 05:34 Elbows wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2011 05:23 Waah wrote:
Elbows - Stim w/o medivacs do more harm than good unless your control is top notch. Most people will end up stimming unnecessarily, and their own tanks will kill the weakened marines when the Zerg army runs in. The Zerg can wait until the stim runs out to engage as well. Furthermore, without combat shields, a stimmed marine gets 1-hit by banelings--devastating if you misclick. Since the research time for stim is significantly longer, you will have more marines which adds to the amount of damage you do to yourself when marines stim. On the other hand, Zerg will have more time to prepare for the push, further weakening your own push.
I wouldn't even push until I had both stim and combat shields with medivacs + a lot more tanks. Use the initial 4 hellions to poke around in the meantime, or even load them up on your first medivac for drop harass. Yea it's worth mentioning that I don't just push for no reason. If the zerg isn't taking an early 3rd then I usually just try to clear out creep tumors and get my 3rd up, which in a way is another reason I don't feel like early stim is really that useful since what's the point of having it early if you're not going to use it?
If he isn't taking an early third, I'd say any upgrade is worth having ready. EDIT: Obviously, keep scouting to see if he takes it. No expo = a lot of units in the near future. You can use stim defensively too, so maybe that's one reason to get it. Plus, you never know what kind of weird timing pushes your opponent may try to do. Better to be safe than sorry if you're on equal bases, IMO.
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The biggest mistake I see my T opponents make is going up ramps or around queens.
If you can get around defense, great, but don't try to go through it.
Sitting at the edge of creep making sure nothing spreads, and preventing scouting plus a fast third are so incredibly important with hellion openings, far more than killing drones, as a good zerg will have the necessary defenses to stop it, but won't want to make enough lings early to clear out the hellions off creep.
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I have tried this style for 20 games or so...i have faced multiple times into mass lings into fast muta build. Mass lings will own my first 4 hellions. the max i can do is to kill creep for a round or two. when they have 10-20 speedlings, i have risk to lose my hellions. after that i have no map control or so. as i know i'm not supposed to do the 3 tanks push when i see mass lings. then around 10mins, zerg will have 10 muta and i'm forced to stay at home. Zerg continues to expand and produce a lot of lings/blings while i can't push. should i turtle to 3 bases and push when max? i can't even setup my 4th bases and zerg army is too mobile. what am i supposed to do for this style? there's no much i can do until i see ultralisk/broodlord in my face.
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thx for the post...been neglecting reactor hellion builds but this will give me some guidance
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On October 28 2011 06:02 Big J wrote:some advice from a Master Zerg for you terrans: Show nested quote +On October 10 2011 21:37 seefour wrote:
How to use the 4 hellions: dont use them suicidally and dont go in with the first 2 unless your very sure of your micro and macro. IF you send in the first two you risk losing to hellions and stockpiling alot of minerals as fruitlessly micro these. If your plat then i would recommend waiting for 4 then poking around the front picking off zerglings and denying creep spread. THIS IS ALL YOU HAVE TO DO WITH YOUR HELLIONS. just want to emphasize on this. If you camp in front of his base, what is he going to do? No creep, no expansion, no unscouted attack!If he builds a ton of zerglings early, you did more than enough damage! If he invests into roaches, without attacking, he cuts into his tech and eco! This is not needed as a follow up to a properly done hellion expand: Show nested quote +On October 27 2011 06:44 bwodie wrote:
also, when attacking at that 9:30 mark, do you guys keep rallying units? If I lose the engagement I always seem so far behind. the Z just expands again and always has way to many units for me.
What should i be doing at this point... do I use that initial attack to get ahead by taking my 3rd, and then if im on 3 rax and 2 fact, just get more rax and port?
plat and under, i mostly won at the 9:30 mark straight out, now im getting defended, I dont know what to do lol
If you have map control until mutas pop, you know he has no 3rd and 1-2 scans will give you all the scouting you need (lair, amounts of gas, unit counts). This 2-3 tank timing is an allin! If Zerg kills it while keeping his infestors or mutas, he is just lightyears ahead. If Zerg does anything that isn't Muta or Infestor (like mass upgraded lings; fast speedbanes; roach/ling) it is close to impossible for a decent zerg to not trade efficently. It is a good move to learn, but it is not a stable move in a macrogame! I really want to get this out to you terrans, because even at my level, 80% of my TvZ wins come from crushing a 2base tank/marine push that wasn't necessary! Even when it doesn't look like an allin, but the reality is, that after this fails, Infestor and Mutalisk numbers will get out of hand, because you wasted too many precious tanks and marines, which get more superior to zerg T2 compositions, the more you have of them! Ultimatly most of those games end with terran not being able to get up a reasonable timed 3rd because of Mutaharass, then being forced to push again, losing that push again and mutanumbers going up to 30-40 until they can wipe out a terran alone.
I dont agree that this push is an all-in. Yes, if it gets absolutely crushed, it will put the terran behind, but if everything is positioned right, and if the timing is right on the terrans part, it should do enough damage. I've lost my entire push to a single wave of zerg units, but at the end of the battle, the supplies were still even, and the terran usually has their 3rd on the way as well. The reason supplies were still even is because of good baneling target firing, and the great cost efficiency of the marines. If you can kill off enough lings and banelings to equalize the supply its still an even game. Generally at the end of my push, there is only a handful of lings left and the recently spawned pack of 6-7 mutas.
Also, usually only really fast mutas will be out in time to deal with this push. Its a strong push that I've seen tons of pros do, and it is solid. It is much better than letting the zerg just sit back and macro. Another good alternative though is to fake the push, clear some creep, and secure your 3rd.
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I love this build, it has changed my TvZ from worst match-up to best match up. I just wanted to point out two other strong variations that I have copied from pro terrans -
1) After the first 4 hellions, instead of putting down more rax, bunker up at natural and take a very quick third. This gives you a deadly ~170 food MM tank thor push (2/1 bio and 1/0 mech) at 14:45 mins. In my experience, you need good macro but if well executed the push pretty much kills any zerg upto mid-masters. Zerg has to be pertty good with larvae injects and must have solid macro himself to have enough to stop this push. The push is also not all in in any way, it hits before hive and allows you take a safe 4th while teching to ghost+viking/marauders (Copied this from Bomber's TvZ games).
2) In another variation after fe you go 2 reactored fact hellions and then transition into 2 reactored rax with 2 tech lab factory into a marine tank push with third behind it (Day9 did a daily on this, the one where he discusses how to play like MVP).
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EPT
