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Youve seen it a million times reactor hellion opening in TvZ. Happens at every level of play its very standard. Casters very often just say hes going with the very standard reactor hellion opening and they leave it that and its not very helpful for lower level players (plat and below) to understand what this build is trying to achieve and to get a grip of the exact optimal order of this build.
What this guide will attempt to do is help lower level players do this without transitioning badly or throwing away hellions which are the two things that will make the opener useless or very strong.
The timings
10 depot
12 rax
13 gas
18 fact
reactor on rax after 2 marines
cc at around 21 supply before your fact finishes
swap fact and rax
24 depot (before you start your hellions!)
Tech lab on rax and start stim asap.
This is where all the deviations and different transitions become apparent im going to recommend that you go for 3 rax fast. As soon as your first 4 hellions finish lift your fact and build a rax on the reactor and another barracks as soon as you have money Remember at about this time you will need to start orbital on your cc. You can get your 3rd rax earlier if you float your cc to your nat before turning it into an orbital or if you dont feel safe to take your nat start your orbital before 3rd rax. Once your second orbital up and running you should add a techlab on your fact and take second gas and start tanks.
How to use the 4 hellions: dont use them suicidally and dont go in with the first 2 unless your very sure of your micro and macro. IF you send in the first two you risk losing to hellions and stockpiling alot of minerals as fruitlessly micro these. If your plat then i would recommend waiting for 4 then poking around the front picking off zerglings and denying creep spread. THIS IS ALL YOU HAVE TO DO WITH YOUR HELLIONS.
Just cause you made hellions doesnt mean you have to kill drones or your behind. They should be just away of scaring the zerg, doing some minor harass and taking map control.
These very early 3 rax and early marine upgrades make it very easy to keep up the pressure. If you dont get early marine production with early marine upgrades then there is a very long period where you are stuck on a few tanks with siege and not alot of unupgraded marines. This means the zerg can sit back and relax and drone, tech and generally whatever the fuck he likes. This is bad.
Once you have stim, 2 reactor rax, 1 techlab rax and 2 or 3 tanks, you are scary to the zerg again and you can do some pushing. The idea with this is not to kill the zerg, just to force them to make units and punish them if they took a greedy third. This is about the time they will be getting mutas or infestors, so if you force them to make units at this point and banelings or what have you, the infestor or muta count will be compramised and you will not have to worry about this kind of tech overwhelming you early as you take your 3rd.
This is not intended to be anything new, just an easy way for plat and below players to have a very solid game plan in tvz that never really lets up the pressure on the zerg and can put you in a good economical position compared to the zerg. Stopping the zerg snowballing with drone production then just being completely unstoppable is the bane of lower level terran players. This is a nice way to stop them doing that.
Im not gonna do a vod but someone linke this: http://blip.tv/day9tv/day-9-daily-319-tvz-less-is-more-5348566
as something similar you can look at.
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Thanks for this thread man - much needed!!!
I'm diamond but I've been suiciding them hellions for months and I think it I've ended up hating TvZ because i feel it's so realiant on early harass. I can tell the result of 85% of my TvZs just by counting drone kills the first 6-7 minutes. In the future I'm gonna hang outside Z base and harass creep spreading queens, nothing else.
Do you place the 2 additional rax as a wall on your natural? Do you move the OC down to the expo as soon as the 4 hellions are out? I assume the push is supposed to hit at around 8:30?
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I find that normally I don't wall off with the rax on naturaL chokes. But I see no reason why you shouldn't. Shakuras and tal darim come to mind. I'm not entirely sure about the exact timing of a marine tank push but it's definitely before 10 mins. Always think about moving out when you have a good number of marines and 2 or 3 tanks with siege. Combat shields should be finishing up as you push out. When you push out is also a good time to throw done a starport and eBay closely followed by a third cc.
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I dislike this version of reactor hellion. I used to play this method and just felt like my hellions always came out too late; my opponent had either simcitied or had a bunch of queens and roaches out by the time i got close to the front. In some ways, this meant I did my job, but the zerg usually knew he was safe to drone after this and that made me uncomfortable. Since 6 pool and 7 pool are so laughably bad against T, I don't really see the point in getting the extra marines before the reactor. I much prefer:
10 depot
11 gas
13 rax
17 fact
17 oc
17 reactor -- remove all doods from gas
17 depot
20 2 hellions OR cc
if you went hellions:
24 depot
26 cc
26 tech lab on rax
27/28 2 more hellions, put guys back on gas
32 take 2nd gas
34 swap tech lab to fact, reactor to rax. Add another rax, starport, and engi. From here, you look to get a tank out to secure your natural, then prepare for +1 and drop play. Aim to drop around 9:30, with a 3 tank push following at around 11 min (this is possible with good macro, although I usually mess it up by getting too cute with my hellions and end up dropping at 10:00 and tank pushing at around 12 -- this makes a big difference). I sometimes opt not to SCV scout with this build, relying instead on the zerg's scouting and the early 2 hellions to grab information.
if you went cc:
21 depot
21 2 hellions
26 tech lab on rax
26 2 hellions
31 second gas
34 same as above; you sacrifice the first two hellions being slower in exchange for a faster cc. Helpful if you are confident in your initial scouting information and don't need the first 2 hellions to go out and grab the map control a bit earlier.
Obviously, there is merit to the other build -- you get a little faster stim and some more marines to hold off muta harass a little more easily. I just find that this one goes a bit better with my playstyle, and there are more chances for some opportunistic drone sniping with this build due to zergs that are used to the slow hellion setup.
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I think there is certainly a place for gas first hellions but it just doesnt have the same goals as rax before gas. If you went gas first hellions you are seriously committing to early hellions as a source of serious damage. Not only this but gas first hellions are incredibly easy to scout and is fairly obvious as this is the only real tvz gas first option terran has.
Not only this but it delays your expo, slows down your stim and leaves the zerg free to drone for far longer than the rax first varient. Your push is much weaker with this build because you have less marines and with fewer upgrades and it arrives later.
Now lets talk about the 2 marines. These 2 marines are actually pretty pivotal to the build in a few ways. First it gives you the option to bunker pressure. Rallying your first marine and building a bunker has become a pretty standard thing in the tvz meta game because of how much free dmg it can achieve. Completely forgoing this is in my mind a mistake as it lets the zerg do the most optimal greedy version of a hatch first that he likes. You can even build the rax on the low ground as many high level terrans have been doing just to put an extra bit of pressure onto the zerg.
Also these earlier hellions are actually still fairly easy to shut down.
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Would it be asking too much to create a vod???? like really explaining the build, with pauses, speeding ups and comments??????? also the transitioning to marine tank together with the push?
thanks!!!
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On October 11 2011 00:26 upperbound wrote:
I dislike this version of reactor hellion. I used to play this method and just felt like my hellions always came out too late; my opponent had either simcitied or had a bunch of queens and roaches out by the time i got close to the front. In some ways, this meant I did my job, but the zerg usually knew he was safe to drone after this and that made me uncomfortable.
I think you're underestimating the value of shutting down creep tumours; it's pretty much impossible to wander across creep with any sort of mid-game push (keeping in mind mech takes quite a while to build up).
You can also transition into double reactor hellion, rather than a tech lab on the barracks, and just use a ridiculous number of dune buggies (around 16 will do the trick) to just barrel through the sim city and slaughter everything at the natural, and potentially the main too.
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Thanks for this thread. I was searching for a guide that really explains solid standard tvz and I feel like reactor hellions into 3-tank-push into marine/tank/medivac is the most standard build in tvz atm.
Keeping your hellions alive is really important. My 3-tank-push always gets crushed so hard if I lose my hellions early on. 4 hellions protect the 3 tanks so much from lings.
But could you also explain a bit how exactly you are executing the 2-3-tank-push? When do you siege, do you leapfrog or do you just hold position between the zerg natural and his potential third while taking your own third?
What do you do AFTER the 3-tank-push? When do you attack the next time? Do you make a drop while attacking the next time? Is it a 8 marine or 16 marine drop?
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On October 11 2011 01:26 FaKeSC2 wrote:
Thanks for this thread. I was searching for a guide that really explains solid standard tvz and I feel like reactor hellions into 3-tank-push into marine/tank/medivac is the most standard build in tvz atm.
Keeping your hellions alive is really important. My 3-tank-push always gets crushed so hard if I lose my hellions early on. 4 hellions protect the 3 tanks so much from lings.
But could you also explain a bit how exactly you are executing the 2-3-tank-push? When do you siege, do you leapfrog or do you just hold position between the zerg natural and his potential third while taking your own third?
What do you do AFTER the 3-tank-push? When do you attack the next time? Do you make a drop while attacking the next time? Is it a 8 marine or 16 marine drop?
that's exactly what i wanted to know.. that's why i asked for a vod... like with some real explanations, guideance etc
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On October 11 2011 01:26 FaKeSC2 wrote:
Thanks for this thread. I was searching for a guide that really explains solid standard tvz and I feel like reactor hellions into 3-tank-push into marine/tank/medivac is the most standard build in tvz atm.
Keeping your hellions alive is really important. My 3-tank-push always gets crushed so hard if I lose my hellions early on. 4 hellions protect the 3 tanks so much from lings.
But could you also explain a bit how exactly you are executing the 2-3-tank-push? When do you siege, do you leapfrog or do you just hold position between the zerg natural and his potential third while taking your own third?
What do you do AFTER the 3-tank-push? When do you attack the next time? Do you make a drop while attacking the next time? Is it a 8 marine or 16 marine drop?
The thing with the 3-tank push is that it only really punishes Zergs that are taking a quick third or being exceptionally greedy.
If they go for a fast macro hatch, you shouldn't bother with the push at all, but look to take a quick 3rd at around 9-10 minutes. (Even better, you can take the quick 3rd and push your army out to a point where he can see it, past an overlord or something - and then just roll on back home. Lots of larva wasted.)
You're right that the reactor hellion expand is the most standard build, but that's because you can easily transition into whatever is necessary. The problem is scouting correctly to identify a) what the Zerg is going for b) what army the Zerg is going for and c) how hard the Zerg is droning.
The reactor hellion build can deal with all of those transitions, but if you make the wrong move (ie. through guessing) you can end up behind too. It's tricky.
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On October 11 2011 01:29 xTrim wrote:
that's exactly what i wanted to know.. that's why i asked for a vod... like with some real explanations, guideance etc
EmpireKas executes this BO very well, and it is covered in Day9's TvZ "Less is more" episode:
http://blip.tv/day9tv/day-9-daily-319-tvz-less-is-more-5348566
For the future, just take some initiative and do some research into a BO instead of just asking it to be spoon fed to you on a forum, you should learn more that way.
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An alternative to the OP build consists of getting a starport instead of the 3rd rax at the same time, grabbing your 2nd gas and getting a reactor on your factory. This gives you 2rax (1 reactor, 1 tech lab with stim on the way) and 1 port 1 fact. Once the port is up, swap with factory and you will have just enough for 2 medivacs.
At this point, you literally have 16 marines + stim and 2 medivacs for a drop. If you decide not to bunker your natural (something I always do), you could sneak in 1-2 hellions to add to the first 2. This allows you to do a very nice timing push at 8:30ish. Drop the back of the main, while sneaking in hellions through the front to hit the natural.
This is what SeleCT typically does, minus the 2 extra hellions.
Conversely, you can get your 3rd rax up while the medivacs are coming, then swap the starport reactor with the rax, get your tech lab on your factory, and start focusing on tanks. This would also transition very well if you would rather get the tanks a bit earlier (and you also need your 3rd gas while you make this transition + engineering bay). This gives you in total, 3 rax (2 reactor,1 tech lab), 1 fact w/ tech and 1 naked-port (you will only have gas for 1 medivac at a time if you decide to get upgrades like +1 and combat shield after stim, especially if you prioritize getting tanks).
Hope this helps.
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A lot of people asking about the tank push so ill talk about that in more detail. If you want to really make use of this you have no make sure you arent just doing it cause the guide tells you to do this. IF you keep your hellions alive (which you really should, no excuse to lose them) you can scout for fast thirds and see what units they are making throughout the early and early mid game.
If you see that he is either taking a fast 3rd or teching fast (you need to scan to see if this is the case) then a tank push is a good idea. The hellions are pretty crucial to this cause they allow you to be greedy with your siege position. You can see very early if they have banelings ready to crush your greedy tanky push or roaches which are the main threat. If you see these things you can make the decision to leap frog forward or just go back home and take a 3rd.
This is only one transition from this very solid opening and a lot of the alternatives suggested in this thread are also pretty viable and i wouldnt discourage you from doing these. But this transition i feel is very solid and safe to alot of shit zerg can throw at you at the same time as keeping the zerg srsly on his toes. Its also fairly easy to execute.
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Thanks for the post! Very helpful!! 
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Thank you, we need more basic builds like this posted, as sometimes it's just hard to find the actual timings for standard things.
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Yeah hellions are not supposed to actually kill drones (it is a bonus if you can) but instead scare the zerg and force them to make more units other than drones. Basically, the whole game in any matchup against zerg (except ZvZ) is to stop them from droning and getting a massive economy lead. You have to be a constant threat to the zerg and keep harassing them.
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Thanks for the post but i have to say i find guides a lot better when there r some replays in it, showing some of the follow ups of that build. But nevertheless, thanks
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Thank you. I have been trying to switch to a reactor hellion opening, and this is exactly the kind of guide I need to get the fundamentals.
Almost certainly dumb question: Why doesn't the reactor come before the factory? Since the factory doesn't make anything until 50 seconds after 150 gas (total) has been mined, wouldn't it be better to get the reactor out much earlier and use it to make one or two double rounds of marines? It would slow your hellions by 10 seconds (because the factory takes longer to build), but it seems more efficient?
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i just got promoted to diamond and now have no luck with this build. I am getting over run, just lost to 7 diamond zergs in a row.
I go:
10 depot
12 rax
13 gas
18 fact
reactor on rax after 2 marines
cc at around 21 supply before your fact finishes
swap fact and rax
24 depot (before you start your hellions!)
Tech lab on rax
4 hellions to hold front of Z base and then switch fact and rax
2 more rax to take it to 3
push at around 9:30 with 2 tanks, around 15 marines.
Even if the Z doesn't build roaches, mass zerglings even own me. I have tanks on a diff control group and shoot banes....
is this build still doable these days at diamond level??
Thanks!
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also, when attacking at that 9:30 mark, do you guys keep rallying units? If I lose the engagement I always seem so far behind. the Z just expands again and always has way to many units for me.
What should i be doing at this point... do I use that initial attack to get ahead by taking my 3rd, and then if im on 3 rax and 2 fact, just get more rax and port?
plat and under, i mostly won at the 9:30 mark straight out, now im getting defended, I dont know what to do lol
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On October 25 2011 23:43 whiskypriest wrote:
Almost certainly dumb question: Why doesn't the reactor come before the factory? Since the factory doesn't make anything until 50 seconds after 150 gas (total) has been mined, wouldn't it be better to get the reactor out much earlier and use it to make one or two double rounds of marines? It would slow your hellions by 10 seconds (because the factory takes longer to build), but it seems more efficient?
You go 18 fact then the reactor starts on the rax (after 2 marines) about 20 secs later. The factory is inactive for about 10 secs and you can use this time to set it up above the rax to land it as soon as the reactor finishes.
I just wanna put something out there. You really shouldnt take the marine tank push at around the 9 minute mark as something you HAVE to do. Its actually very situational and you SHOULD ONLY do it if:
- You know zerg took a pre 10 minute 3rd
- He got hive really fast
- You held off some kind of early aggression off 1 or 2 base (your push will come later)
- You absolutely know that they dont have a baneling nest
- You killed alot of drones with hellions
- You killed alot of zerglings
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seefour, that is incredibly helpfull. I always thought that was a flat timing that I had to abuse. Everyone always says you must pressure zerg constantly, so if i dont push here, I have only had my initial hellion push and thats it. I have left them to drone up. When is my next possible timings to pressure?
so if not pushing, setup siege line out further to take third, get armory ready for muta or more port ready for drops if they go infestor??
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interesting thread...but i wonder why some pro's build 6 instead of the initinal 4 Hellions
What are the reason and advantages of this 6 hellion style? Maybe you can answer this
thx a lot
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Hi! I'm having a lot of trouble with the mass ling into mass muta build, my enemies use to have baneling nest, but they dont use then, they throw me a lot of lings with speed and upgrades that surround my rines and tanks, then they came with 20 mutas and pin me back in my base, someone can provide any tips, or a replay?
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On October 28 2011 03:37 hotsuma wrote:
Hi! I'm having a lot of trouble with the mass ling into mass muta build, my enemies use to have baneling nest, but they dont use then, they throw me a lot of lings with speed and upgrades that surround my rines and tanks, then they came with 20 mutas and pin me back in my base, someone can provide any tips, or a replay?
It sounds like you overcommit in your first push. Have in mind that you can't really afford losing your first army because then Zerg can just drone up and get alot of mutas out then since you are a zero threat to him. If you can't punish the zerg with the first push you fall back (because you have most likely forced the zerg to waste larva on units and not drones and gas on banelings) and defend muta harrass and go for a push again with 4 or 5 more tanks and medivacs. This push should come around 14-15 min game time.
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On October 10 2011 21:37 seefour wrote:
This is about the time they will be getting mutas or infestors, so if you force them to make units at this point and banelings or what have you, the infestor or muta count will be compramised and you will not have to worry about this kind of tech overwhelming you early as you take your 3rd.
I feel like this is the most important part to the build. As zerg I really have trouble figuring out exactly what unit mix to make to hold this push with as small losses as possible. usually i end up overproducing banelings and then I have like 5 mutas and no lings to counterattack with after I clean up the push.
The reactor hellions don't let you "rush" for a 3rd base which helps a lot against this push.
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On October 28 2011 04:12 Termit wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2011 03:37 hotsuma wrote:
Hi! I'm having a lot of trouble with the mass ling into mass muta build, my enemies use to have baneling nest, but they dont use then, they throw me a lot of lings with speed and upgrades that surround my rines and tanks, then they came with 20 mutas and pin me back in my base, someone can provide any tips, or a replay? It sounds like you overcommit in your first push. Have in mind that you can't really afford losing your first army because then Zerg can just drone up and get alot of mutas out then since you are a zero threat to him. If you can't punish the zerg with the first push you fall back (because you have most likely forced the zerg to waste larva on units and not drones and gas on banelings) and defend muta harrass and go for a push again with 4 or 5 more tanks and medivacs. This push should come around 14-15 min game time.
Yeah I did overcomit, I'm trying 14/15 rax, I overcomit on my first pressure, and my army was clumped.
Ty for the advice, I will take note about the timmings, I dont know the timmings very well.
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Thank you!
I am having real trouble with tvz. I hope this will help a bit.
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On October 27 2011 07:07 saaaa wrote:
interesting thread...but i wonder why some pro's build 6 instead of the initinal 4 Hellions
What are the reason and advantages of this 6 hellion style? Maybe you can answer this
thx a lot
Im guessing its because you get more ling frying power.
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some advice from a Master Zerg for you terrans:
On October 10 2011 21:37 seefour wrote:
How to use the 4 hellions: dont use them suicidally and dont go in with the first 2 unless your very sure of your micro and macro. IF you send in the first two you risk losing to hellions and stockpiling alot of minerals as fruitlessly micro these. If your plat then i would recommend waiting for 4 then poking around the front picking off zerglings and denying creep spread. THIS IS ALL YOU HAVE TO DO WITH YOUR HELLIONS.
just want to emphasize on this. If you camp in front of his base, what is he going to do? No creep, no expansion, no unscouted attack!
If he builds a ton of zerglings early, you did more than enough damage!
If he invests into roaches, without attacking, he cuts into his tech and eco!
This is not needed as a follow up to a properly done hellion expand:
On October 27 2011 06:44 bwodie wrote:
also, when attacking at that 9:30 mark, do you guys keep rallying units? If I lose the engagement I always seem so far behind. the Z just expands again and always has way to many units for me.
What should i be doing at this point... do I use that initial attack to get ahead by taking my 3rd, and then if im on 3 rax and 2 fact, just get more rax and port?
plat and under, i mostly won at the 9:30 mark straight out, now im getting defended, I dont know what to do lol
If you have map control until mutas pop, you know he has no 3rd and 1-2 scans will give you all the scouting you need (lair, amounts of gas, unit counts).
This 2-3 tank timing is an allin! If Zerg kills it while keeping his infestors or mutas, he is just lightyears ahead. If Zerg does anything that isn't Muta or Infestor (like mass upgraded lings; fast speedbanes; roach/ling) it is close to impossible for a decent zerg to not trade efficently.
It is a good move to learn, but it is not a stable move in a macrogame!
I really want to get this out to you terrans, because even at my level, 80% of my TvZ wins come from crushing a 2base tank/marine push that wasn't necessary! Even when it doesn't look like an allin, but the reality is, that after this fails, Infestor and Mutalisk numbers will get out of hand, because you wasted too many precious tanks and marines, which get more superior to zerg T2 compositions, the more you have of them! Ultimatly most of those games end with terran not being able to get up a reasonable timed 3rd because of Mutaharass, then being forced to push again, losing that push again and mutanumbers going up to 30-40 until they can wipe out a terran alone.
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I do this build every tvz, on every map. Mid diamond so I guess it works. Its weak to early roaches, either on 1 base or 2.
Just to note, if z doesn't take an early third, I find the best option is to take you own (yes, even at 9:00). If you can get it up with a pf, you will be ahead. Z will usually allin your third though, so if you hold its a pretty easy win from there.
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I did this build pretty good yesterday for the first time. The only problem is that you need to learn when to retreat because zerg can do a really strong 2 base all-in with ling/bling/muta and stomp you. I would suggest that you deny the 3rd base as long as possible, pull back and continue macroing and you will be in a pretty solid position.
By the time he crushed my contain I already had a 3rd base running and he didn't even have a third started. So after he destroyed my contain I had 0 units for defense. Pulling back would have been the best choice after scouting how much behind he was on economy.
edit: Big J actually detailed my problem exactly (2 posts above)
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I remember demuslim commenting on the gas first reactor hellion. It's only good if unscouted. I personally dont like delaying my OC but on some maps, gas first is really good.
Just remember: Do not over commit with these. They serve more of a purpose than just to kill drones. They're there to deny creep spread, force buildings for sim city, SCOUT for any all ins, SCOUT for third and they also deny the towers for the zerg.
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On October 11 2011 00:26 upperbound wrote:
I dislike this version of reactor hellion. I used to play this method and just felt like my hellions always came out too late; my opponent had either simcitied or had a bunch of queens and roaches out by the time i got close to the front. In some ways, this meant I did my job, but the zerg usually knew he was safe to drone after this and that made me uncomfortable. Since 6 pool and 7 pool are so laughably bad against T, I don't really see the point in getting the extra marines before the reactor. I much prefer:
10 depot
11 gas
13 rax
17 fact
17 oc
17 reactor -- remove all doods from gas
17 depot
20 2 hellions OR cc
if you went hellions:
24 depot
26 cc
26 tech lab on rax
27/28 2 more hellions, put guys back on gas
32 take 2nd gas
34 swap tech lab to fact, reactor to rax. Add another rax, starport, and engi. From here, you look to get a tank out to secure your natural, then prepare for +1 and drop play. Aim to drop around 9:30, with a 3 tank push following at around 11 min (this is possible with good macro, although I usually mess it up by getting too cute with my hellions and end up dropping at 10:00 and tank pushing at around 12 -- this makes a big difference). I sometimes opt not to SCV scout with this build, relying instead on the zerg's scouting and the early 2 hellions to grab information.
if you went cc:
21 depot
21 2 hellions
26 tech lab on rax
26 2 hellions
31 second gas
34 same as above; you sacrifice the first two hellions being slower in exchange for a faster cc. Helpful if you are confident in your initial scouting information and don't need the first 2 hellions to go out and grab the map control a bit earlier.
Obviously, there is merit to the other build -- you get a little faster stim and some more marines to hold off muta harass a little more easily. I just find that this one goes a bit better with my playstyle, and there are more chances for some opportunistic drone sniping with this build due to zergs that are used to the slow hellion setup.
10 depot
12 gas
its actually 12 gas when ur rax finishes u should have 100 gas and drop fact and then make a reactor on the rax. Then once the fact is complete u should make one hellion and once that is built ur reactor should be done. Swap with rax and build 2 more hellions and ur good. This tends to be a bit better than 11 gas as the extra minerals let u get that little bit extra of income. Requires better control though from the terran
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On October 28 2011 06:02 Big J wrote:
[This 2-3 tank timing is an allin! If Zerg kills it while keeping his infestors or mutas, he is just lightyears ahead. If Zerg does anything that isn't Muta or Infestor (like mass upgraded lings; fast speedbanes; roach/ling) it is close to impossible for a decent zerg to not trade efficently.
It is a good move to learn, but it is not a stable move in a macrogame!
I really want to get this out to you terrans, because even at my level, 80% of my TvZ wins come from crushing a 2base tank/marine push that wasn't necessary! Even when it doesn't look like an allin, but the reality is, that after this fails, Infestor and Mutalisk numbers will get out of hand, because you wasted too many precious tanks and marines, which get more superior to zerg T2 compositions, the more you have of them! Ultimatly most of those games end with terran not being able to get up a reasonable timed 3rd because of Mutaharass, then being forced to push again, losing that push again and mutanumbers going up to 30-40 until they can wipe out a terran alone.
Wow, this describes almost all of my TvZ losses in games where I think I am macroing well and should be going into a solid midgame but instead get crushed.
Thanks!
P.S. what would you say is the most stable/safe way to transition from the hellion opening into a strong macro position assuming you are not going to punish an early third/zerg macro hatches first. When/how do you start putting the pressure back on?
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On October 28 2011 06:02 Big J wrote:
some advice from a Master Zerg for you terrans:
I really want to get this out to you terrans, because even at my level, 80% of my TvZ wins come from crushing a 2base tank/marine push that wasn't necessary! Even when it doesn't look like an allin, but the reality is, that after this fails, Infestor and Mutalisk numbers will get out of hand, because you wasted too many precious tanks and marines, which get more superior to zerg T2 compositions, the more you have of them! Ultimatly most of those games end with terran not being able to get up a reasonable timed 3rd because of Mutaharass, then being forced to push again, losing that push again and mutanumbers going up to 30-40 until they can wipe out a terran alone.
this is me to a tee lol! I will follow this advioce closely
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Good thread. I've been seeing a lot of suicide 4 helions for drone kills into 1base thor all-ins with blueflame (really? T_T really) hopefully the lower level players will pick up on the macro uses of Helions.
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I don't know if I like that you're making stim instead of switching out for siege tanks. I just don't see any timing here and unless you're making more helions you've basically made your factory and reactor useless. I think it's better to get fast siege tanks, then add on rax and start stim and combat shields after.
Oh, and if you decide to push make sure you still have your helions alive and you have a good idea of their unit count.
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I used this build a lot before but as people say, its very standard in TvZ atm and the ling,bane, infestor builds zergs use (stephano/destiny builds) are pretty much a raw counter to this.
Lately, because of the many ling, bane, infestor players ive swapped over to a heavy mech army. Either a reactor hellion expand into double reactor hellion that stops the 3rd until intil mutas/infestors are out.
When their mutas hit (infestors are very rare when they realize you wont have a standard Marine, tank composition) you have to rely quite abit on turrets until you get your 2 first thors out. At that point, with thors close to army and minerals lines and mineral dumping into hellions your quite safe to grab 3rd-4th. A big muta ball will force you to play defensive, dont be afraid to produce extra thors+keeping a few SCV's nearby for repair if he tries to take the thors out. You will most likely have minerals to spare because of the gas heavy units so turrets to support the thors in defending the bases is strongly recommended.
Dont be afraid of harrashing his 3rd/4th with hellions. Mutas are usually trying to harrash your bases so they are far away and getting enough drones to justify losing a few hellions is easy. You have to keep scouting his main/nat with dropped hellions/scans to make sure that broods/ultras dont hit earlier than usual. Having the hellions mobile in 2-3 groups to force the zerg player close to home is key, you will have weak points, specially if his muta harrash have forced you into more AA then you planned.
Atleast for me, with good hellion harash and tanks,thors,hellions back home anything before that wont really be to dangerous, your free to macro up and get to 3/3 w/o much harrashing from the zerg player. Make sure to start replacing hellions with ghosts later on (since they are the OP, ultra, super, duper unit vs Zerg lategame). Nuke his easy to get to bases and use the completly not op spell "snipe". Overseers are prio 1 after that snipe away on that ultra/brood ball to the best of your liking.
The main disadvantage of this is that hellions is really your only offensive unit and it will allow the zerg to grab any base he wants, your goal is to make sure to force him into a brood/ultra heavy 200 army that your ghosts+siege line will eat. The key is to delay this 200 army as long as possible and therfor have enough ghosts to make MVP proud.
Take what i say with a grain of salt (only a diamond player) but watching GSL/MLG it feels like a pure mech army has more to give than a marine-tank army. And you save quite abit of gas only having to upg. mech units. Until they do something about Ghost>Brood+Ultra a 15+ ghosts lategame is far from overkill.
Extra notes:
1-3 Vikings to clear up stray overlords is an easy way to maintain mapcontrol into the lategame.
Watch out for burrowed roaches.
Don't fail with harrashing his 3rd+, it will result in broods/ultras before your ghost count is high enough.
Hellions are still the most rage inducing unit ingame.
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What's a good mech transition from this? My main problem when I go reactor hellion is not having enough anti-air for mutas, so I'd especially like to know when to get turrets and an Armory/Thors.
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On October 28 2011 07:04 sdecker32 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2011 06:02 Big J wrote:
[This 2-3 tank timing is an allin! If Zerg kills it while keeping his infestors or mutas, he is just lightyears ahead. If Zerg does anything that isn't Muta or Infestor (like mass upgraded lings; fast speedbanes; roach/ling) it is close to impossible for a decent zerg to not trade efficently.
It is a good move to learn, but it is not a stable move in a macrogame!
I really want to get this out to you terrans, because even at my level, 80% of my TvZ wins come from crushing a 2base tank/marine push that wasn't necessary! Even when it doesn't look like an allin, but the reality is, that after this fails, Infestor and Mutalisk numbers will get out of hand, because you wasted too many precious tanks and marines, which get more superior to zerg T2 compositions, the more you have of them! Ultimatly most of those games end with terran not being able to get up a reasonable timed 3rd because of Mutaharass, then being forced to push again, losing that push again and mutanumbers going up to 30-40 until they can wipe out a terran alone. Wow, this describes almost all of my TvZ losses in games where I think I am macroing well and should be going into a solid midgame but instead get crushed. Thanks! P.S. what would you say is the most stable/safe way to transition from the hellion opening into a strong macro position assuming you are not going to punish an early third/zerg macro hatches first. When/how do you start putting the pressure back on?
Usually a Zerg that is contained by hellions will start a macro hatch inside his base around the time the spire starts, because it is pretty safe, as long as he has 2-3 spines and well timed zergling/baneling production. + Show Spoiler +(I'm usually beating those tank/marine pushes by the arival of my initial ~7 mutas, which cut reinforcement and my spine crawlers giving me enough time to get the 1-2 extra rounds of zerglings that I need. Then I can crush this push. If he tries to unsiege and run back without a reinforcing army, I can just clean it up and even keep most of my zerglings.
Most pros right now use this push only to clean out a watchtower, kill some creep if it starts to get out of zergs base with one scan and then retreat asap. It should just keep the zerg honest and his mapcontrol a little wacky
But all of those defensive measures are not enough for a good offensive move against a 3base terran! Just float out a 3rd around the time a zerg 3rd (usually his 4th hatch) should finish, if you're confident enough, you can even take it before the zerg! 3 turrets per mineral line and split your marines in 2-3 groups to chase mutalisks around. Let 2 factory tank production kick in. If you push at that time (I think this would be around 14min), you have way more eco/production to replenish armies, and your tank count is strong enough to vaporize a zerg army on its own.
If you kept your hellions alive, you can still scout with them for 3rds and 4ths and drop play should give you enough offensive potential to stay in touch with your opponent.
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this is awesome and i cant wait to utilize it.
Another transiton i'm curous about is delaying tanks in favor of quick medivacs/drops. What's the general build transition and tips for army retention?
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What do you guys think on building a bunker with your scouting scv and put your first marine inside..if u start building bunker near mineral patch it's very hard for a zerg to kill the bunker without losing mining time or producing lings. your hellion will come a little bit slower but it forces zerg to get some lings which you can toast.
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Hey Guys,
I've been doing this build in all my TvZs lately and it is pretty effective. I have a few questions :
- what is fast hive. I guess I have to scan the zergs base to decide wether I wanna push with 3 tanks, but at what time ?
- how do you decide that it is safe to float out your CC to your natural and get the orbital there, or keep it in your base and get the orbital there ?
- I understand that pre 10 min zerg 3rd is greedy so I can do a 3 tank + marines push. Do I go for the 3rd to deny it or siege up at their natural ?
- how do you defend against a two base roach ling allin with reactor hellion opening. I don't even know how to scout this. The roaches deny my hellions any scouting at their natural and by the time this push arrives to my base I can barely have a single tank out (no siege mode) and with only marines and hellions I just can't defend my natural. Or am I taking my natural too greedily without having siege mode (I normally get stim before siege mode) ?
- in general how do I scout have roach aggression incoming, without being to late (ie. bunker gets up late etc.)
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On October 29 2011 02:43 jlai wrote:
What do you guys think on building a bunker with your scouting scv and put your first marine inside..if u start building bunker near mineral patch it's very hard for a zerg to kill the bunker without losing mining time or producing lings. your hellion will come a little bit slower but it forces zerg to get some lings which you can toast.
You have to be extremely confident in your micro/macro. If it causes you to mess anything up, its not worth it. Also, if it fails, the z can roach counter for an auto win.
The key to making this strat work is to punish zergs who are to greedy with their pool timing, if your scouting scv goes into his base and sees the hatch down, but but a 15+ pool its probably good to try and bunker. You can bring around 3 scv's to help, thats up to you.
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On October 31 2011 20:25 djtopa wrote:
Hey Guys,
I've been doing this build in all my TvZs lately and it is pretty effective. I have a few questions :
- what is fast hive. I guess I have to scan the zergs base to decide wether I wanna push with 3 tanks, but at what time ?
- how do you decide that it is safe to float out your CC to your natural and get the orbital there, or keep it in your base and get the orbital there ?
- I understand that pre 10 min zerg 3rd is greedy so I can do a 3 tank + marines push. Do I go for the 3rd to deny it or siege up at their natural ?
- how do you defend against a two base roach ling allin with reactor hellion opening. I don't even know how to scout this. The roaches deny my hellions any scouting at their natural and by the time this push arrives to my base I can barely have a single tank out (no siege mode) and with only marines and hellions I just can't defend my natural. Or am I taking my natural too greedily without having siege mode (I normally get stim before siege mode) ?
- in general how do I scout have roach aggression incoming, without being to late (ie. bunker gets up late etc.)
It sounds like your answering your own questions, just think through them a little more.
1) Hive is usually around 15 min. Anything eariler would be "fast" but you 3 tank timing is much earily then that. The timing is either an allin, or an attempt to deny an early third from the zerg. Also, on big maps i like to not even push and just take a really early third of my own.
2) Keep it in your base. Folating out a cc is greedy, as it will pretty much lose to the roach push you talk about later. If you see him going roaches, you need a tank and siege mode(or siege almost done) before you can safely take you nat. Or you can take it earlier with 2+ bunkers.
3) This is up to you, it depends on map. Usually going for the third for a quick deny works for me. I don't love this kind of push though, it seems easy for the zerg to punish it, even on your way back home...
4)As soon as you stop making hellions you should get a tank and siege mode. Your probably floating gas anyway, why wait?
5) If the zerg made roaches, you ahead. I'm not even joking. Turtle up, get a quick third you go for a strong 2 base push. Mutas will be late (after 10-11min) due to gas from roaches. This is also why you need siege mode, zergs know that they need to do damage with roaches, and usually will attack you with them.
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Do this build all the time at high plat level (was low diamond but got demoted due to tvp t.t) but have trouble keeping my hellions alive even if I don't rush into his base to pick off drones. I've tried camping outside his natural and patrol moving outside his nat but I find that after a min or 2 he'll mass up 20 or so lings (around the time he wants to break the contain and take his contain, so before 9 mins if being greedy) and surround the hellions. My APM isn't quick enough to jump back to the hellions in time and get them out so I usually lose them.
Am I better off just sitting at his 3rd, or keeping 1 of them at his third? At my level it just seems too difficult to keep a constant eye on them when I'm macroing up back home.
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On October 31 2011 20:25 djtopa wrote:
Hey Guys,
I've been doing this build in all my TvZs lately and it is pretty effective. I have a few questions :
- what is fast hive. I guess I have to scan the zergs base to decide wether I wanna push with 3 tanks, but at what time ?
- how do you decide that it is safe to float out your CC to your natural and get the orbital there, or keep it in your base and get the orbital there ?
- I understand that pre 10 min zerg 3rd is greedy so I can do a 3 tank + marines push. Do I go for the 3rd to deny it or siege up at their natural ?
- how do you defend against a two base roach ling allin with reactor hellion opening. I don't even know how to scout this. The roaches deny my hellions any scouting at their natural and by the time this push arrives to my base I can barely have a single tank out (no siege mode) and with only marines and hellions I just can't defend my natural. Or am I taking my natural too greedily without having siege mode (I normally get stim before siege mode) ?
- in general how do I scout have roach aggression incoming, without being to late (ie. bunker gets up late etc.)
I float my CC out, when it finishes before morphing it into an Orbital, then build a Bunker at my nat. I also get one marrauder from my rax to be safe. With this variation, you can have your 3rd Rax much sooner and you will have 1 Marrauder and 2 Marines in a Bunker, with a tank comming out. Your hellions should scout the roaches comming and you should send them back without loosing one. With reparing the Bunker and tank you should be really safe against roach rushes.
I only push out, when i scout a fast third with my hellions and my opponent doesn´t have many units active on the map. But on some maps i attack the natrual and set up a Bunker/Turret contain. That gave me easy wins aggainst bad macroing Zergs.
I never faced a roach/bling allin, but you should have your siege mode started when you build your 2nd Tank. He needs a lot of time to prepare this push, try to scout his Dronecount on his nat with your hellions. Everytime you see a low dronecount, you should increase your defense, because there is no other reason for Zerg to have a low dronecount if you don´t want to attack.
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I really like this opening and been trying to play it more. I used to do 2 Rax Bunker pressure but it seems the Zergs now know how to easily defend it and I end up behind (Plat league - not the best micro here).
My problem is that I don't want to use tanks at all in my TvZ (Just something I want to try). I usually transition into a lot of Marines and early +1/+1 upgrades and then keep on upgrading without pause to +3/+3 marines. I add Medivacs and slowly more Starports for mid to late game Ravens with full upgrades. Usually, I start dropping a lot once the Zerg has a 4th/5th and try to defend my own 3rd/4th. I literally throw full Medivacs at each of his bases and with 3/3 Marines that can do quite a lot of damage. If no Mutas, I send some Ravens to accompany them for support. Once I got about 7-10 Ravens out, I can easly push from the front with either slow Auto-Turrent Push or fast aggresive Seeker Missile on Baneling/Infestors. ->Most of the time I lose if the drops do hardly any damage. (But there is no greater feeling if you drop the Zerg in 3+ places at once and he can't handle them all.)
My problem is that without tanks I can hardly pressure the Zerg after the Hellions and because I go for fast upgrades my Medivas usually come out too late for drops before Mutas hit. The biggest problem obviously are Banelings for a full frontal attack because my Marine splitting isn't MKP's... 
Is there a way to keep pressure up right after the Hellion opening without tanks?
I could change by BO a bit maybe use cloaked Banshees before upgrading (since I will need the Tech Lab Starport anyway) but this delays Medivacs & Upgrades and the Zerg usually has Mutas and/or Infestors up (or soon up) and Spore + Muta/Infestor shuts down cloaked Banshee with ease.
Or maybe more Hellion with Blue Flame if he isn't going Roaches? But they are a lot of minerals -> fewer Marines when Mutas hit.
Any ideas how to transition of of this without tanks?
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Guys, currently zerg are really good at defending the hellion into tank marine push. So just stop doing it. The only time where you want to do this is when the zerg takes a fast 3rd. Otherwise your making a bet that is not in your favor. If your hellions are successful in delaying the zerg from taking a 3rd until mutas pop, then you have done sufficient damage. I would suggest 6 hellions to anyone below a high level as its easy for zerg to pop out with a group of zerglings and get 4 hellions but 6 needs alot more lings.
Realize that if you hold back, you can take a quicker third, make more marines, and turrets, I suggest heavy marine play (1 factory tanks) at this point since its much easier to defend muta harass if you have enough marines/medivacs to form multiple muta fighting groups. Your goal at this point is upgrading the shit out of your bio.
Once on 3 base your next goal is to ramp up tank production and start ghost production. Your ultimate composition is 10-15 or more ghosts with cloak + tanks and marines. Once you have a ton of ghosts you are in a much better position and can just sit back and do damage with 8marine drops. Once you get enough tanks, you need to move up and take a forward position where you can defend your 4th and at the same time increase turret building everywhere on the outskirts of your base.
Realize that once the zerg has expanded to 4+ bases he is much more vulnerable to drop play, no matter how good he is.
This is my opinion is the perfect TvZ game.
Notes:
If you take some damage from muta harass, you may have to delay ghost production, but you need to scan for hive, if you see hive up you need to stop everything but ghost production because you will be screwed against broodlord infestors if you dont have plenty of ghosts, make sure you start the energy upgrade 20seconds before ghost production.
You need more tanks and less marines if infestor opening instead of mutas. But you should still have a shitload of marines as this is how terran functions.
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I really want to get this out to you terrans, because even at my level, 80% of my TvZ wins come from crushing a 2base tank/marine push that wasn't necessary! Even when it doesn't look like an allin, but the reality is, that after this fails, Infestor and Mutalisk numbers will get out of hand, because you wasted too many precious tanks and marines, which get more superior to zerg T2 compositions, the more you have of them! Ultimatly most of those games end with terran not being able to get up a reasonable timed 3rd because of Mutaharass, then being forced to push again, losing that push again and mutanumbers going up to 30-40 until they can wipe out a terran alone.
I don't agree with this at all. If the terran executes the push effectively, it is not an all in at all. Zerg needs to trade efficiently with terran in order for the game to continue. If zerg can't break the push, the game is over. Terran needs to not get so greedy with his/her offensive tank positioning, and needs to continuously apply pressure. TvZ is all about trades.
Likewise, you should never ever EVER rally units to your first push. EVER. Always rally back to your base while securing a third and teching to starport and 1-1. If you rally to your push, then you're all inning, and might as well stop scv production as well.
I've seen a countless amount of replays where zerg will defend the first push with terran losing 3-4 tanks and 20 marines, and terran will still win the game. the siege tank positioning is key, just don't get caught out of position. Your hellions don't need to do harrass either. If your first push forces units, and does damage, the large muta ball you fear won't be out until a minute or two later than normal. Around 11-12 minutes in game. If he decides to get early muta, he will have 6 at most. If you've been rallying back to your base you should have more than enough marines with combat/stim to deal with the mutas while sustaining minimal losses.
Furthermore, watch the day9 daily that was linked in this thread fast forward to the EmpireKas game, and you will see what I'm talking about. The push is thwarted, but the significant damage was done with the push results slightly favoring terran. It's all about momentum.
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Hi guys, I have a question about this build. I'm a silver level player and I have one build that I basically do against each race, and this is my TvZ build. My question is about the stim timing in this build and also about what to do directly after you've finished making hellions.
With this build I make 4 hellions while I create a tech lab on my barracks. What I used to do before reading this thread was I would swap my barrack & factory as soon as my 4th hellion was out and build a 2nd barracks. Then I would immediately start tank + double marine production. When my 2nd barracks finished I would add a tech lab. I felt that this got me a decent marine/tank count early on with siege mode, however my stim is obviously delayed as I favored tank production over stim.
After reading this thread I thought I would try this build which is slightly different in the sense that you build the tech lab on the barracks but after your hellions are complete you build your 2nd rax on the reactor and a tech lab on your factory while starting stim on your 1st barracks. I tried this build in practice and in actual games MANY times and I felt that I was never able to get the same marine/tank count in a reasonable time which led to weaker/later pushes overall. Yes, I had stim but without medivacs it doesn't always seem like the best idea to stim my marines. The one thing I really did like about this build was that if I saw roaches early on I already had a tech lab barracks that I could use for marauder production and in fact most games I would just blind make a marauder anyway. After a week or so of trying this build I switched back to my original method with what I think are better results.
Was I just doing this build wrong or am I stating the obvious by saying that this build results in a lower marine/tank count. Is having an earlier stim really that great without medivacs?
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jnc - Opening hellions significantly reduces your marine count. Even if you skipped tanks to go to starport tech right away, you won't have marine upgrades or a high marine count to make the drop worthwhile. If you want to go for fast drops then transition into marine-tank-medivac, you might want to look into trying HansK's 1-1 16 marine drop opening. I can personally state that said build has been very successful and safe in my TvZs (Plat). The downside to it is that you relinquish map control, but it's one of the best openings if you want to go for a fast and potent drop.
Elbows - Stim w/o medivacs do more harm than good unless your control is top notch. Most people will end up stimming unnecessarily, and their own tanks will kill the weakened marines when the Zerg army runs in. The Zerg can wait until the stim runs out to engage as well. Furthermore, without combat shields, a stimmed marine gets 1-hit by banelings--devastating if you misclick. Since the research time for stim is significantly longer, you will have more marines which adds to the amount of damage you do to yourself when marines stim. On the other hand, Zerg will have more time to prepare for the push, further weakening your own push.
I wouldn't even push until I had both stim and combat shields with medivacs + a lot more tanks. Use the initial 4 hellions to poke around in the meantime, or even load them up on your first medivac for drop harass.
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On November 17 2011 05:23 Waah wrote:
Elbows - Stim w/o medivacs do more harm than good unless your control is top notch. Most people will end up stimming unnecessarily, and their own tanks will kill the weakened marines when the Zerg army runs in. The Zerg can wait until the stim runs out to engage as well. Furthermore, without combat shields, a stimmed marine gets 1-hit by banelings--devastating if you misclick. Since the research time for stim is significantly longer, you will have more marines which adds to the amount of damage you do to yourself when marines stim. On the other hand, Zerg will have more time to prepare for the push, further weakening your own push.
I wouldn't even push until I had both stim and combat shields with medivacs + a lot more tanks. Use the initial 4 hellions to poke around in the meantime, or even load them up on your first medivac for drop harass.
Yea it's worth mentioning that I don't just push for no reason. If the zerg isn't taking an early 3rd then I usually just try to clear out creep tumors and get my 3rd up, which in a way is another reason I don't feel like early stim is really that useful since what's the point of having it early if you're not going to use it?
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On November 17 2011 05:34 Elbows wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2011 05:23 Waah wrote:
Elbows - Stim w/o medivacs do more harm than good unless your control is top notch. Most people will end up stimming unnecessarily, and their own tanks will kill the weakened marines when the Zerg army runs in. The Zerg can wait until the stim runs out to engage as well. Furthermore, without combat shields, a stimmed marine gets 1-hit by banelings--devastating if you misclick. Since the research time for stim is significantly longer, you will have more marines which adds to the amount of damage you do to yourself when marines stim. On the other hand, Zerg will have more time to prepare for the push, further weakening your own push.
I wouldn't even push until I had both stim and combat shields with medivacs + a lot more tanks. Use the initial 4 hellions to poke around in the meantime, or even load them up on your first medivac for drop harass. Yea it's worth mentioning that I don't just push for no reason. If the zerg isn't taking an early 3rd then I usually just try to clear out creep tumors and get my 3rd up, which in a way is another reason I don't feel like early stim is really that useful since what's the point of having it early if you're not going to use it?
If he isn't taking an early third, I'd say any upgrade is worth having ready. EDIT: Obviously, keep scouting to see if he takes it. No expo = a lot of units in the near future. You can use stim defensively too, so maybe that's one reason to get it. Plus, you never know what kind of weird timing pushes your opponent may try to do. Better to be safe than sorry if you're on equal bases, IMO.
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The biggest mistake I see my T opponents make is going up ramps or around queens.
If you can get around defense, great, but don't try to go through it.
Sitting at the edge of creep making sure nothing spreads, and preventing scouting plus a fast third are so incredibly important with hellion openings, far more than killing drones, as a good zerg will have the necessary defenses to stop it, but won't want to make enough lings early to clear out the hellions off creep.
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I have tried this style for 20 games or so...i have faced multiple times into mass lings into fast muta build. Mass lings will own my first 4 hellions. the max i can do is to kill creep for a round or two. when they have 10-20 speedlings, i have risk to lose my hellions. after that i have no map control or so. as i know i'm not supposed to do the 3 tanks push when i see mass lings. then around 10mins, zerg will have 10 muta and i'm forced to stay at home. Zerg continues to expand and produce a lot of lings/blings while i can't push. should i turtle to 3 bases and push when max? i can't even setup my 4th bases and zerg army is too mobile. what am i supposed to do for this style? there's no much i can do until i see ultralisk/broodlord in my face.
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thx for the post...been neglecting reactor hellion builds but this will give me some guidance
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On October 28 2011 06:02 Big J wrote:some advice from a Master Zerg for you terrans: Show nested quote +On October 10 2011 21:37 seefour wrote:
How to use the 4 hellions: dont use them suicidally and dont go in with the first 2 unless your very sure of your micro and macro. IF you send in the first two you risk losing to hellions and stockpiling alot of minerals as fruitlessly micro these. If your plat then i would recommend waiting for 4 then poking around the front picking off zerglings and denying creep spread. THIS IS ALL YOU HAVE TO DO WITH YOUR HELLIONS. just want to emphasize on this. If you camp in front of his base, what is he going to do? No creep, no expansion, no unscouted attack!If he builds a ton of zerglings early, you did more than enough damage! If he invests into roaches, without attacking, he cuts into his tech and eco! This is not needed as a follow up to a properly done hellion expand: Show nested quote +On October 27 2011 06:44 bwodie wrote:
also, when attacking at that 9:30 mark, do you guys keep rallying units? If I lose the engagement I always seem so far behind. the Z just expands again and always has way to many units for me.
What should i be doing at this point... do I use that initial attack to get ahead by taking my 3rd, and then if im on 3 rax and 2 fact, just get more rax and port?
plat and under, i mostly won at the 9:30 mark straight out, now im getting defended, I dont know what to do lol
If you have map control until mutas pop, you know he has no 3rd and 1-2 scans will give you all the scouting you need (lair, amounts of gas, unit counts). This 2-3 tank timing is an allin! If Zerg kills it while keeping his infestors or mutas, he is just lightyears ahead. If Zerg does anything that isn't Muta or Infestor (like mass upgraded lings; fast speedbanes; roach/ling) it is close to impossible for a decent zerg to not trade efficently. It is a good move to learn, but it is not a stable move in a macrogame! I really want to get this out to you terrans, because even at my level, 80% of my TvZ wins come from crushing a 2base tank/marine push that wasn't necessary! Even when it doesn't look like an allin, but the reality is, that after this fails, Infestor and Mutalisk numbers will get out of hand, because you wasted too many precious tanks and marines, which get more superior to zerg T2 compositions, the more you have of them! Ultimatly most of those games end with terran not being able to get up a reasonable timed 3rd because of Mutaharass, then being forced to push again, losing that push again and mutanumbers going up to 30-40 until they can wipe out a terran alone.
I dont agree that this push is an all-in. Yes, if it gets absolutely crushed, it will put the terran behind, but if everything is positioned right, and if the timing is right on the terrans part, it should do enough damage. I've lost my entire push to a single wave of zerg units, but at the end of the battle, the supplies were still even, and the terran usually has their 3rd on the way as well. The reason supplies were still even is because of good baneling target firing, and the great cost efficiency of the marines. If you can kill off enough lings and banelings to equalize the supply its still an even game. Generally at the end of my push, there is only a handful of lings left and the recently spawned pack of 6-7 mutas.
Also, usually only really fast mutas will be out in time to deal with this push. Its a strong push that I've seen tons of pros do, and it is solid. It is much better than letting the zerg just sit back and macro. Another good alternative though is to fake the push, clear some creep, and secure your 3rd.
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I love this build, it has changed my TvZ from worst match-up to best match up. I just wanted to point out two other strong variations that I have copied from pro terrans -
1) After the first 4 hellions, instead of putting down more rax, bunker up at natural and take a very quick third. This gives you a deadly ~170 food MM tank thor push (2/1 bio and 1/0 mech) at 14:45 mins. In my experience, you need good macro but if well executed the push pretty much kills any zerg upto mid-masters. Zerg has to be pertty good with larvae injects and must have solid macro himself to have enough to stop this push. The push is also not all in in any way, it hits before hive and allows you take a safe 4th while teching to ghost+viking/marauders (Copied this from Bomber's TvZ games).
2) In another variation after fe you go 2 reactored fact hellions and then transition into 2 reactored rax with 2 tech lab factory into a marine tank push with third behind it (Day9 did a daily on this, the one where he discusses how to play like MVP).
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On November 28 2011 02:19 jlai wrote:
I have tried this style for 20 games or so...i have faced multiple times into mass lings into fast muta build. Mass lings will own my first 4 hellions. the max i can do is to kill creep for a round or two. when they have 10-20 speedlings, i have risk to lose my hellions. after that i have no map control or so. as i know i'm not supposed to do the 3 tanks push when i see mass lings. then around 10mins, zerg will have 10 muta and i'm forced to stay at home. Zerg continues to expand and produce a lot of lings/blings while i can't push. should i turtle to 3 bases and push when max? i can't even setup my 4th bases and zerg army is too mobile. what am i supposed to do for this style? there's no much i can do until i see ultralisk/broodlord in my face.
I highly recommend checking out Day9's daily #375 which talks about TvZ against zerg aggression. It covers many things discussed in this thread, from early hellion harass to the pre 10-minute mark (i.e. pre-muta) push. The most important take away for myself is how to deal with the muta harass. Day9 suggests to be defensive on 2 base (while building and ready to take a 3rd) while increasing your marine & tank counts, and most importantly do heavy marine upgrades, with 2 Ebays. He suggests not to build turrets but rely on marines to defend muta harass (before you take the 3rd/move out). I don't have the APM to split the marine groups so I do a variant in building turrets at base and have my marines defending the natural. My TvZ record has improved quite a bit with these tips, and when I win my marines are usually with 2/2 or 3/3 upgrades.
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EPT
