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On October 25 2011 23:43 whiskypriest wrote:
Almost certainly dumb question: Why doesn't the reactor come before the factory? Since the factory doesn't make anything until 50 seconds after 150 gas (total) has been mined, wouldn't it be better to get the reactor out much earlier and use it to make one or two double rounds of marines? It would slow your hellions by 10 seconds (because the factory takes longer to build), but it seems more efficient?
You go 18 fact then the reactor starts on the rax (after 2 marines) about 20 secs later. The factory is inactive for about 10 secs and you can use this time to set it up above the rax to land it as soon as the reactor finishes.
I just wanna put something out there. You really shouldnt take the marine tank push at around the 9 minute mark as something you HAVE to do. Its actually very situational and you SHOULD ONLY do it if:
- You know zerg took a pre 10 minute 3rd
- He got hive really fast
- You held off some kind of early aggression off 1 or 2 base (your push will come later)
- You absolutely know that they dont have a baneling nest
- You killed alot of drones with hellions
- You killed alot of zerglings
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seefour, that is incredibly helpfull. I always thought that was a flat timing that I had to abuse. Everyone always says you must pressure zerg constantly, so if i dont push here, I have only had my initial hellion push and thats it. I have left them to drone up. When is my next possible timings to pressure?
so if not pushing, setup siege line out further to take third, get armory ready for muta or more port ready for drops if they go infestor??
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interesting thread...but i wonder why some pro's build 6 instead of the initinal 4 Hellions
What are the reason and advantages of this 6 hellion style? Maybe you can answer this
thx a lot
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Hi! I'm having a lot of trouble with the mass ling into mass muta build, my enemies use to have baneling nest, but they dont use then, they throw me a lot of lings with speed and upgrades that surround my rines and tanks, then they came with 20 mutas and pin me back in my base, someone can provide any tips, or a replay?
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On October 28 2011 03:37 hotsuma wrote:
Hi! I'm having a lot of trouble with the mass ling into mass muta build, my enemies use to have baneling nest, but they dont use then, they throw me a lot of lings with speed and upgrades that surround my rines and tanks, then they came with 20 mutas and pin me back in my base, someone can provide any tips, or a replay?
It sounds like you overcommit in your first push. Have in mind that you can't really afford losing your first army because then Zerg can just drone up and get alot of mutas out then since you are a zero threat to him. If you can't punish the zerg with the first push you fall back (because you have most likely forced the zerg to waste larva on units and not drones and gas on banelings) and defend muta harrass and go for a push again with 4 or 5 more tanks and medivacs. This push should come around 14-15 min game time.
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On October 10 2011 21:37 seefour wrote:
This is about the time they will be getting mutas or infestors, so if you force them to make units at this point and banelings or what have you, the infestor or muta count will be compramised and you will not have to worry about this kind of tech overwhelming you early as you take your 3rd.
I feel like this is the most important part to the build. As zerg I really have trouble figuring out exactly what unit mix to make to hold this push with as small losses as possible. usually i end up overproducing banelings and then I have like 5 mutas and no lings to counterattack with after I clean up the push.
The reactor hellions don't let you "rush" for a 3rd base which helps a lot against this push.
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On October 28 2011 04:12 Termit wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2011 03:37 hotsuma wrote:
Hi! I'm having a lot of trouble with the mass ling into mass muta build, my enemies use to have baneling nest, but they dont use then, they throw me a lot of lings with speed and upgrades that surround my rines and tanks, then they came with 20 mutas and pin me back in my base, someone can provide any tips, or a replay? It sounds like you overcommit in your first push. Have in mind that you can't really afford losing your first army because then Zerg can just drone up and get alot of mutas out then since you are a zero threat to him. If you can't punish the zerg with the first push you fall back (because you have most likely forced the zerg to waste larva on units and not drones and gas on banelings) and defend muta harrass and go for a push again with 4 or 5 more tanks and medivacs. This push should come around 14-15 min game time.
Yeah I did overcomit, I'm trying 14/15 rax, I overcomit on my first pressure, and my army was clumped.
Ty for the advice, I will take note about the timmings, I dont know the timmings very well.
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Thank you!
I am having real trouble with tvz. I hope this will help a bit.
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On October 27 2011 07:07 saaaa wrote:
interesting thread...but i wonder why some pro's build 6 instead of the initinal 4 Hellions
What are the reason and advantages of this 6 hellion style? Maybe you can answer this
thx a lot
Im guessing its because you get more ling frying power.
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some advice from a Master Zerg for you terrans:
On October 10 2011 21:37 seefour wrote:
How to use the 4 hellions: dont use them suicidally and dont go in with the first 2 unless your very sure of your micro and macro. IF you send in the first two you risk losing to hellions and stockpiling alot of minerals as fruitlessly micro these. If your plat then i would recommend waiting for 4 then poking around the front picking off zerglings and denying creep spread. THIS IS ALL YOU HAVE TO DO WITH YOUR HELLIONS.
just want to emphasize on this. If you camp in front of his base, what is he going to do? No creep, no expansion, no unscouted attack!
If he builds a ton of zerglings early, you did more than enough damage!
If he invests into roaches, without attacking, he cuts into his tech and eco!
This is not needed as a follow up to a properly done hellion expand:
On October 27 2011 06:44 bwodie wrote:
also, when attacking at that 9:30 mark, do you guys keep rallying units? If I lose the engagement I always seem so far behind. the Z just expands again and always has way to many units for me.
What should i be doing at this point... do I use that initial attack to get ahead by taking my 3rd, and then if im on 3 rax and 2 fact, just get more rax and port?
plat and under, i mostly won at the 9:30 mark straight out, now im getting defended, I dont know what to do lol
If you have map control until mutas pop, you know he has no 3rd and 1-2 scans will give you all the scouting you need (lair, amounts of gas, unit counts).
This 2-3 tank timing is an allin! If Zerg kills it while keeping his infestors or mutas, he is just lightyears ahead. If Zerg does anything that isn't Muta or Infestor (like mass upgraded lings; fast speedbanes; roach/ling) it is close to impossible for a decent zerg to not trade efficently.
It is a good move to learn, but it is not a stable move in a macrogame!
I really want to get this out to you terrans, because even at my level, 80% of my TvZ wins come from crushing a 2base tank/marine push that wasn't necessary! Even when it doesn't look like an allin, but the reality is, that after this fails, Infestor and Mutalisk numbers will get out of hand, because you wasted too many precious tanks and marines, which get more superior to zerg T2 compositions, the more you have of them! Ultimatly most of those games end with terran not being able to get up a reasonable timed 3rd because of Mutaharass, then being forced to push again, losing that push again and mutanumbers going up to 30-40 until they can wipe out a terran alone.
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I do this build every tvz, on every map. Mid diamond so I guess it works. Its weak to early roaches, either on 1 base or 2.
Just to note, if z doesn't take an early third, I find the best option is to take you own (yes, even at 9:00). If you can get it up with a pf, you will be ahead. Z will usually allin your third though, so if you hold its a pretty easy win from there.
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I did this build pretty good yesterday for the first time. The only problem is that you need to learn when to retreat because zerg can do a really strong 2 base all-in with ling/bling/muta and stomp you. I would suggest that you deny the 3rd base as long as possible, pull back and continue macroing and you will be in a pretty solid position.
By the time he crushed my contain I already had a 3rd base running and he didn't even have a third started. So after he destroyed my contain I had 0 units for defense. Pulling back would have been the best choice after scouting how much behind he was on economy.
edit: Big J actually detailed my problem exactly (2 posts above)
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I remember demuslim commenting on the gas first reactor hellion. It's only good if unscouted. I personally dont like delaying my OC but on some maps, gas first is really good.
Just remember: Do not over commit with these. They serve more of a purpose than just to kill drones. They're there to deny creep spread, force buildings for sim city, SCOUT for any all ins, SCOUT for third and they also deny the towers for the zerg.
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On October 11 2011 00:26 upperbound wrote:
I dislike this version of reactor hellion. I used to play this method and just felt like my hellions always came out too late; my opponent had either simcitied or had a bunch of queens and roaches out by the time i got close to the front. In some ways, this meant I did my job, but the zerg usually knew he was safe to drone after this and that made me uncomfortable. Since 6 pool and 7 pool are so laughably bad against T, I don't really see the point in getting the extra marines before the reactor. I much prefer:
10 depot
11 gas
13 rax
17 fact
17 oc
17 reactor -- remove all doods from gas
17 depot
20 2 hellions OR cc
if you went hellions:
24 depot
26 cc
26 tech lab on rax
27/28 2 more hellions, put guys back on gas
32 take 2nd gas
34 swap tech lab to fact, reactor to rax. Add another rax, starport, and engi. From here, you look to get a tank out to secure your natural, then prepare for +1 and drop play. Aim to drop around 9:30, with a 3 tank push following at around 11 min (this is possible with good macro, although I usually mess it up by getting too cute with my hellions and end up dropping at 10:00 and tank pushing at around 12 -- this makes a big difference). I sometimes opt not to SCV scout with this build, relying instead on the zerg's scouting and the early 2 hellions to grab information.
if you went cc:
21 depot
21 2 hellions
26 tech lab on rax
26 2 hellions
31 second gas
34 same as above; you sacrifice the first two hellions being slower in exchange for a faster cc. Helpful if you are confident in your initial scouting information and don't need the first 2 hellions to go out and grab the map control a bit earlier.
Obviously, there is merit to the other build -- you get a little faster stim and some more marines to hold off muta harass a little more easily. I just find that this one goes a bit better with my playstyle, and there are more chances for some opportunistic drone sniping with this build due to zergs that are used to the slow hellion setup.
10 depot
12 gas
its actually 12 gas when ur rax finishes u should have 100 gas and drop fact and then make a reactor on the rax. Then once the fact is complete u should make one hellion and once that is built ur reactor should be done. Swap with rax and build 2 more hellions and ur good. This tends to be a bit better than 11 gas as the extra minerals let u get that little bit extra of income. Requires better control though from the terran
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On October 28 2011 06:02 Big J wrote:
[This 2-3 tank timing is an allin! If Zerg kills it while keeping his infestors or mutas, he is just lightyears ahead. If Zerg does anything that isn't Muta or Infestor (like mass upgraded lings; fast speedbanes; roach/ling) it is close to impossible for a decent zerg to not trade efficently.
It is a good move to learn, but it is not a stable move in a macrogame!
I really want to get this out to you terrans, because even at my level, 80% of my TvZ wins come from crushing a 2base tank/marine push that wasn't necessary! Even when it doesn't look like an allin, but the reality is, that after this fails, Infestor and Mutalisk numbers will get out of hand, because you wasted too many precious tanks and marines, which get more superior to zerg T2 compositions, the more you have of them! Ultimatly most of those games end with terran not being able to get up a reasonable timed 3rd because of Mutaharass, then being forced to push again, losing that push again and mutanumbers going up to 30-40 until they can wipe out a terran alone.
Wow, this describes almost all of my TvZ losses in games where I think I am macroing well and should be going into a solid midgame but instead get crushed.
Thanks!
P.S. what would you say is the most stable/safe way to transition from the hellion opening into a strong macro position assuming you are not going to punish an early third/zerg macro hatches first. When/how do you start putting the pressure back on?
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On October 28 2011 06:02 Big J wrote:
some advice from a Master Zerg for you terrans:
I really want to get this out to you terrans, because even at my level, 80% of my TvZ wins come from crushing a 2base tank/marine push that wasn't necessary! Even when it doesn't look like an allin, but the reality is, that after this fails, Infestor and Mutalisk numbers will get out of hand, because you wasted too many precious tanks and marines, which get more superior to zerg T2 compositions, the more you have of them! Ultimatly most of those games end with terran not being able to get up a reasonable timed 3rd because of Mutaharass, then being forced to push again, losing that push again and mutanumbers going up to 30-40 until they can wipe out a terran alone.
this is me to a tee lol! I will follow this advioce closely
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Good thread. I've been seeing a lot of suicide 4 helions for drone kills into 1base thor all-ins with blueflame (really? T_T really) hopefully the lower level players will pick up on the macro uses of Helions.
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I don't know if I like that you're making stim instead of switching out for siege tanks. I just don't see any timing here and unless you're making more helions you've basically made your factory and reactor useless. I think it's better to get fast siege tanks, then add on rax and start stim and combat shields after.
Oh, and if you decide to push make sure you still have your helions alive and you have a good idea of their unit count.
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I used this build a lot before but as people say, its very standard in TvZ atm and the ling,bane, infestor builds zergs use (stephano/destiny builds) are pretty much a raw counter to this.
Lately, because of the many ling, bane, infestor players ive swapped over to a heavy mech army. Either a reactor hellion expand into double reactor hellion that stops the 3rd until intil mutas/infestors are out.
When their mutas hit (infestors are very rare when they realize you wont have a standard Marine, tank composition) you have to rely quite abit on turrets until you get your 2 first thors out. At that point, with thors close to army and minerals lines and mineral dumping into hellions your quite safe to grab 3rd-4th. A big muta ball will force you to play defensive, dont be afraid to produce extra thors+keeping a few SCV's nearby for repair if he tries to take the thors out. You will most likely have minerals to spare because of the gas heavy units so turrets to support the thors in defending the bases is strongly recommended.
Dont be afraid of harrashing his 3rd/4th with hellions. Mutas are usually trying to harrash your bases so they are far away and getting enough drones to justify losing a few hellions is easy. You have to keep scouting his main/nat with dropped hellions/scans to make sure that broods/ultras dont hit earlier than usual. Having the hellions mobile in 2-3 groups to force the zerg player close to home is key, you will have weak points, specially if his muta harrash have forced you into more AA then you planned.
Atleast for me, with good hellion harash and tanks,thors,hellions back home anything before that wont really be to dangerous, your free to macro up and get to 3/3 w/o much harrashing from the zerg player. Make sure to start replacing hellions with ghosts later on (since they are the OP, ultra, super, duper unit vs Zerg lategame). Nuke his easy to get to bases and use the completly not op spell "snipe". Overseers are prio 1 after that snipe away on that ultra/brood ball to the best of your liking.
The main disadvantage of this is that hellions is really your only offensive unit and it will allow the zerg to grab any base he wants, your goal is to make sure to force him into a brood/ultra heavy 200 army that your ghosts+siege line will eat. The key is to delay this 200 army as long as possible and therfor have enough ghosts to make MVP proud.
Take what i say with a grain of salt (only a diamond player) but watching GSL/MLG it feels like a pure mech army has more to give than a marine-tank army. And you save quite abit of gas only having to upg. mech units. Until they do something about Ghost>Brood+Ultra a 15+ ghosts lategame is far from overkill.
Extra notes:
1-3 Vikings to clear up stray overlords is an easy way to maintain mapcontrol into the lategame.
Watch out for burrowed roaches.
Don't fail with harrashing his 3rd+, it will result in broods/ultras before your ghost count is high enough.
Hellions are still the most rage inducing unit ingame.
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What's a good mech transition from this? My main problem when I go reactor hellion is not having enough anti-air for mutas, so I'd especially like to know when to get turrets and an Armory/Thors.
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EPT
