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On October 04 2011 06:01 Flonomenalz wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2011 05:58 the p00n wrote:On October 04 2011 05:53 Flonomenalz wrote:
what the...
I don't even know if I'm allowed to criticize grandmasters players but... I watched the game against Xaenor. In the time that your mothership is building... your opponent can do two things:
1 - Double expand.
2- Go absolutely all in and kill you.
You would have to build literally... 6+ cannons to hold a huge all in from what I saw in the game vs Xaenor. He had 2k mins floating, and probably around 30 idle larvae, he never droned up his third... I don't even know what that was...
You basically do a 3 gate expand into 5 minutes of no pressure. Your VR/phoenix cannot deny a third off of 1 SG. what if they go 3 base muta? Your mothership cannot keep up with 20 mutas swinging around back and forth from your just started third - main - natural. Which means even more cannons, meaning less units. I'm sorry, but from what I've seen in both Plexa's reps and yours, I cannot see this working against any good Zerg. I'm in freaking Platinum league and I've never floated 2k mins, build 10 roaches for no reason, suicide them all.... I don't even know what Xeanor was doing. I think motherships should always be used late game, but trying to sneak them in early game is just suicidal... You said you were sick of "Well I hope he doesn't scout what I'm doing builds" but that's exactly what this is! You even try to sneak in a hidden fast third but you admit that if it gets scouted you have to cancel.
I'm just confused. How could this have a 90% win rate? Are masters zergs really that bad? If you are on the EU server, I would gladly play you. Unfortunately I'm on NA, I'd love to be wrong about what I've seen. The thing is though, I would know exactly what was coming and all your timings so that would be kind of weird. I'd actually hope for you to beat me because it seems really cool (motherships are always awesome), but I just don't think it's viable.
im on NA server and id like to play you with the early mothership build. we can do antiga or taldar arim or whatever map doesnt matter
actually my early mothership build is alot different. i do a 2gate expand with heavy scouting and if i scout roaches or a allin coming i get cannons asap, then off the 2gate expand i get a fast mothership and do 6gate pressure with mothership. its different from this dudes build and i think its a bit superior but
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On October 04 2011 05:21 Jojo131 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2011 05:11 Whiplash wrote:On October 04 2011 05:07 BDubs wrote:
Does anyone have a replay of this build that deals with mutas? My apm isn't that good so dealing with the mutas proved to be a huge hassle. Try a 2 base timing attack and just cannon up a lot so he can't base race you, a few archons and a mothership means if he flies close enough to your army and you vortex him then hes finished. What patch are you playing in bro?  Air units still stack a lot, even after the vortex change. If you watch my replay, I vortexed around 10-12 corruptors and only a few were alive when all was done. For mutas it is the same, a few will survive but the majority will be dead. For BLs, ALL OF THEM DIE because of how slow they spread out after the vortex. Not to mention, zealots and archons will demolish the ranged ground units because they are all clumped up due to the nature of the vortex.
On October 04 2011 05:06 fezvez wrote:
- I fail to see how a mothership is such a great defensive unit Could you please develop? You do overseer sniping while at your base? It's unkillable because it's big? (but so are carriers during mid game) Because there's just a very big timing window where the protoss is weaker right? (during the construction of the mothership)
Firstly, you can half their army by vortexing it, which makes what is technically a better army more manageable to deal with. Secondly, if you vortex their overseer(s) (which is easy, especially if they a-move it with the rest of their army) they are in the dark. Thirdly, even if they keep their overseer out of the vortex, it can't come close enough to decloak everything or you can easily snipe it with stalkers or archons, so at best he can only see part of your army, and at worst, he is in the dark. Plus if you park your mothership over your third, he can't attack it without taking a large risk. Either he has to have enough detection(multiple overseers) to deal with the cloaking, or enough hydras/corruptors to brute force your mothership down while having enough units to deal with your army after sustaining heavy losses from dealing a mothership and a cloaked army. At the time when you are taking your third, it would be nigh impossible for the zerg to have enough anti-air that early in the game, unless he is blind countering you. Basically, what I'm saying is that they can't engage you on your terms while you are taking your third because of the abilities of the mothership. Hence why it is a fantastic defensive (and offensive) unit.
The mothership comes out just after all of the roach/ling all in timings but before hydra/roach play really starts up (Roughly 11 minutes into the game +/- 30 seconds. This build isn't refined yet). However, you will be basically safe from roach/ling all-ins because you have sentries, zealots and a voidray to deal with the attack along with a solid simcity from the 2 gateways you build in front of your nexus. In build-order testing I personally have been experimenting with going stargate before the 2 gates that wall-off for this exact reason (a quicker voidray to deal with the roaches since zealot/sentry is subpar against roaches). I haven't fully figured out the effects but it doesn't seem like a huge difference either way. If they ling pressure with a few lings that stop a wall from being built, I like to throw down the stargate first so I can counter pressure with a faster voidray (see my replay even though I botched it by underestimating the number of hydras out, the idea is there. My execution just sucks).
I was pondering this build a lot while working on math today, and I definitely see the potential for it to be a solid opening in ZvP that can finally solve the issue I, and many other Protosses, have beening struggling with, which is getting a faster third while still being safe from goofy all-ins.
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On October 04 2011 06:08 Whiplash wrote:http://drop.sc/40263A replay vs me and Gerbil (very good NA zerg!) he knows its coming. I'm convinced this is a solid build and playstyle, I didn't even execute the build as well as I could have and so much promise shows. Edit: I also believe that there is a timing toss can do while taking their 4th when they max out (it should be before hive tech) where they can simply run over the zerg.
Hey, I watched the replay and I have some insights on why it wasn't as onesided as it, in my opinion, should have been.
You won the first fight convincingly because you met the 'expected number of archons' (you only used gas on a robo and an observer). However, after that you started to kind of freestyle it up and went into 'standard' PvZ lategame. You spent your gas on a dark shrine, dark templars (to harass, not to transform into archons), air weapons, carriers, graviton catapult, blink research, warp prism speed, additional stargates, ...,
I did some counting (as in I actually counted, I didn't take a glance and estimated how many gas you used) and, although I may have missed something, you had used at least 2875 gas on non-archon/mothership things. This roughly equals 10 archons. In the second fight, you did not meet the expected number of archons and your army was defeated.
I personally think that it is better if you only dump all of your gas into archons. All your harass is a good example of nice play, but I think that with this build and unit composition, it is much better to only warp in zealots (not DTs) if you want to harass, and just make 100.00% sure that your 200/200 will absolutely annihilate his 200/200. Rather then making the fight indirectly in your favor (by doing warp prism harass, base sniping, etc.), you could also make it directly in your favor by simply having much more archons. What do you think?
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On October 04 2011 06:51 the p00n wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2011 06:08 Whiplash wrote:http://drop.sc/40263A replay vs me and Gerbil (very good NA zerg!) he knows its coming. I'm convinced this is a solid build and playstyle, I didn't even execute the build as well as I could have and so much promise shows. Edit: I also believe that there is a timing toss can do while taking their 4th when they max out (it should be before hive tech) where they can simply run over the zerg. Hey, I watched the replay and I have some insights on why it wasn't as onesided as it, in my opinion, should have been. You won the first fight convincingly because you met the 'expected number of archons' (you only used gas on a robo and an observer). However, after that you started to kind of freestyle it up and went into 'standard' PvZ lategame. You spent your gas on a dark shrine, dark templars (to harass, not to transform into archons), air weapons, carriers, graviton catapult, blink research, warp prism speed, additional stargates, ..., I did some counting (as in I actually counted, I didn't take a glance and estimated how many gas you used) and, although I may have missed something, you had used at least 2875 gas on non-archon/mothership things. This roughly equals 10 archons. In the second fight, you did not meet the expected number of archons and your army was defeated. I personally think that it is better if you only dump all of your gas into archons. All your harass is a good example of nice play, but I think that with this build and unit composition, it is much better to only warp in zealots (not DTs) if you want to harass, and just make 100.00% sure that your 200/200 will absolutely annihilate his 200/200. Rather then making the fight indirectly in your favor (by doing warp prism harass, base sniping, etc.), you could also make it directly in your favor by simply having much more archons. What do you think?
True for sure, I just felt like it wasn't necessary to focus on getting even more archons, but I do agree that having a proper 200/200 deathball is important. I've played multiple other games and I've come to the conclusion that late game u can basically go into whatever style you want as long as it can handle what the zerg will produce. A good zerg will get roach/infestor/broodlord and I think if you add in storm and stalkers to your army composition then you'll be set, but mass archons would work just as good as long as they all get into the toilet.
The power of this build is not necessarily vortex (although it plays a key role), but the fact that the mothership allows an easy 3rd and 4th base which the zerg cannot punish.
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Zerg brethren, the dark age is coming again 
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On October 04 2011 07:01 Whiplash wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2011 06:51 the p00n wrote:On October 04 2011 06:08 Whiplash wrote:http://drop.sc/40263A replay vs me and Gerbil (very good NA zerg!) he knows its coming. I'm convinced this is a solid build and playstyle, I didn't even execute the build as well as I could have and so much promise shows. Edit: I also believe that there is a timing toss can do while taking their 4th when they max out (it should be before hive tech) where they can simply run over the zerg. Hey, I watched the replay and I have some insights on why it wasn't as onesided as it, in my opinion, should have been. You won the first fight convincingly because you met the 'expected number of archons' (you only used gas on a robo and an observer). However, after that you started to kind of freestyle it up and went into 'standard' PvZ lategame. You spent your gas on a dark shrine, dark templars (to harass, not to transform into archons), air weapons, carriers, graviton catapult, blink research, warp prism speed, additional stargates, ..., I did some counting (as in I actually counted, I didn't take a glance and estimated how many gas you used) and, although I may have missed something, you had used at least 2875 gas on non-archon/mothership things. This roughly equals 10 archons. In the second fight, you did not meet the expected number of archons and your army was defeated. I personally think that it is better if you only dump all of your gas into archons. All your harass is a good example of nice play, but I think that with this build and unit composition, it is much better to only warp in zealots (not DTs) if you want to harass, and just make 100.00% sure that your 200/200 will absolutely annihilate his 200/200. Rather then making the fight indirectly in your favor (by doing warp prism harass, base sniping, etc.), you could also make it directly in your favor by simply having much more archons. What do you think? True for sure, I just felt like it wasn't necessary to focus on getting even more archons, but I do agree that having a proper 200/200 deathball is important. I've played multiple other games and I've come to the conclusion that late game u can basically go into whatever style you want as long as it can handle what the zerg will produce. A good zerg will get roach/infestor/broodlord and I think if you add in storm and stalkers to your army composition then you'll be set, but mass archons would work just as good as long as they all get into the toilet. The power of this build is not necessarily vortex (although it plays a key role), but the fact that the mothership allows an easy 3rd and 4th base which the zerg cannot punish.
The bold part is very important and I'm happy you realize that. This was my first goal with this build, but then I figured out that the zealot/archon composition, combined with the mothership, absolutely facerolls.
In your replay, the zerg had 5k+ minerals and a 4-figure amount of gas as well while your harass was going on. It was very long-term focused, but I would much rather focus on the next 200/200 vs. 200/200. The harass did no direct damage to his army composition, it would only come into play later in that specific game you provided. I can't help but think of the second battle with 10 more archons in the mix, not trying to be bossy or anything, just my insights  I'm happy you are experimenting with it.
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On October 02 2011 13:05 BuddhaMonk wrote:
Which nexus do you normally make your mothership at?
Would this really matter? If so how?
I mean, he is going to be on 2 bases and he is using it to get his 3rd so it would be made from his natural? =/
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On October 04 2011 07:01 Whiplash wrote:
The power of this build is not necessarily vortex (although it plays a key role), but the fact that the mothership allows an easy 3rd and 4th base which the zerg cannot punish. This is basically what I tried to say but more precisely and less long-winded. The vortex is great but not the key to this build. For the zerg to threaten your third or fourth they HAVE TO commit with either tons of detection that they know will likely die. Anything less than full commitment to taking out the third will lose them the game because to threaten the third they MUST deal with the mothership, which they simply cannot do cost efficiently, especially with the threat of AoE from the archons and the sheer dps of zealots. However, if they don't pressure they are in a tough spot anyway because now they have to face a Protoss on 3-4 bases that will likely either be matching them in upgrades or at better upgrades, and have the vast majority of their tech-tree open to them (A DT harrass transition for example is easily opened, or a robo switch to colossi or immortals, which is much more accessible and easy to stomach on 3-4 bases, than on two where you simply can't afford it). If they try going infestor ling you already have the tech and upgrades to deal with it easily. This is why I like the idea of this build so much. It is a safe build for Protoss, something that hasn't been around for months.
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On October 04 2011 07:56 ODKStevez wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2011 13:05 BuddhaMonk wrote:
Which nexus do you normally make your mothership at? Would this really matter? If so how? I mean, he is going to be on 2 bases and he is using it to get his 3rd so it would be made from his natural? =/ I would build it at the main in the event he manages to scout near your natural and see it building(though it won't make a huge difference. There's nothing he can do that early) If you have been doing a good job with your voidray or phoenix, he will not have any scout overlords available to spot it building in your main. Unless he sees the fleet beacon (again, he won't if you are being attentive with phoenix/voidrays), he won't know if it is just a standard FE stargate build or a mothership play until after the mothership is out, and any opportunity to deny information (and thus, delay a reaction) is worth it in the long run, especially against a reaction-based race like Zerg.
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I've been going over the build and the replays and as a Zerg player I can't really come up with any solid timings, maybe a 2 base nydus hydra all in, or certain early roach burrow timings might work since you skip on detection yourself for so long, but other than those all ins I'm not really sure how I would react, you kill overlords near the base before I could scout mothership and those all ins lose pretty hard to robo openings so it feels like a coin flip.
If you let toss do this build and they get on 4 bases unmolested there is nothing you can do, especially since it already includes a mothership which is amazingly overpowered late game, I am very suprised more protoss haven't started using it before now.
So my thinking is I might be able to macro up to 80-90 drones on 4-5 base and make 20 or so corruptors to snipe the mothership + any collosus void ray or phoenix while mass spining behind it then morphing the leftover corruptors into broodlords with infestors and lings or banes to back it up and try to hit a good timing before another 100 energy mothership is out. It feels really icky though even to think about being in that kind of situation vs toss, especially one that is using late game prisms and dt harass which are very hard to deal with while counter harassing since cannons are so much better vs lings than spines are vs zealots.
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A brilliant idea. Not only are motherships awesome, they also are extremely underused, primarily due to the easy counters. A build like this removes easy counters from the equation, turning what equates to a gg from a protoss to a fair game. Plus, people tend to underestimate mass recall, archon toilet and what the cloaking field means for any major engagement. However, I am not convinced of this build's effectiveness in a tournament environment, where there are extremely high level players who also know what you favor. Zerg is a reactive race that can have its scouting easily denied. Thus, playing stupid against Zerg can actually work, unless of course they know you and expect you to do this. I remain cautiously optimistic about the build's effectiveness though.
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On October 04 2011 05:53 Flonomenalz wrote:
what the...
I don't even know if I'm allowed to criticize masters players but... I watched the game against Xaenor. In the time that your mothership is building... your opponent can do two things:
1 - Double expand.
2- Go absolutely all in and kill you.
You would have to build literally... 6+ cannons to hold a huge all in from what I saw in the game vs Xaenor. He had 2k mins floating, and probably around 30 idle larvae, he never droned up his third... I don't even know what that was...
You basically do a 3 gate expand into 5 minutes of no pressure. Your VR/phoenix cannot deny a third off of 1 SG. what if they go 3 base muta? Your mothership cannot keep up with 20 mutas swinging around back and forth from your just started third - main - natural. Which means even more cannons, meaning less units. I'm sorry, but from what I've seen in both Plexa's reps and yours, I cannot see this working against any good Zerg. I'm in freaking Platinum league and I've never floated 2k mins, build 10 roaches for no reason, suicide them all.... I don't even know what Xeanor was doing. I think motherships should always be used late game, but trying to sneak them in early game is just suicidal... You said you were sick of "Well I hope he doesn't scout what I'm doing builds" but that's exactly what this is! You even try to sneak in a hidden fast third but you admit that if it gets scouted you have to cancel.
I'm just confused. How could this have a 90% win rate? Are masters zergs really that bad?
The main point of the void/pheonix is to force aa (besides being safe from roach ling) - if the zerg does not have creep spread to the 3rd you can usually put on a ton of pressure, or even kill it. At that point in the game zerg pretty much only has queens for mobile AA.
Also, the pheonix lets you pretty much get a 100% scout of your opponents base - he starts going all in you can make the cannons
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This build may be the answer im looking for. That denial of the third has indeed caused me some growth pains.
All in all very well written and thank you for sharing. You have inspired me.
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yep, mothership is good. Zerg hasn't really found a way to deal with them yet. You just can't attack into a mothership. Zergs have been saying this for a long time but no one listened :/
The Protoss Death ball: now comes with 50% more death!
Congrats on your 90% WR.
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As a Zerg, all I can say is that I need more infestors. There's not enough fungals in the world for this.
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At the OP, you would go for high templar right? or would you go DTs to do some harass and delay some bases?(for archons i mean)
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Hello, I'm new here. Saw your thread and is interested to reply. Is this viable against zerg player who goes Muta harrass? Most my opponent saw my voidray/ phoenix they just go muta.
Also have you try this vs terran & protoss ?
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On October 04 2011 17:30 Drewand wrote:
Hello, I'm new here. Saw your thread and is interested to reply. Is this viable against zerg player who goes Muta harrass? Most my opponent saw my voidray/ phoenix they just go muta.
Also have you try this vs terran & protoss ?
When I do this build I always go stargate really fast after a FFE or a 2gate FE with putting a stargate down asap. You should be harassing/scouting enough to see him going for mutas, Once you know mutas are coming get cannons and stalkers with blink everywhere and still get your Mothership and push out with blink and a mothership.
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Btw when attacking the zerg base with a 200/200 ball, would you eat around his mining bases or just head straight to his main? Sorry if this a game sense question as I have not developed it. ><! Also...know what would be cool...we see Killer do a manly mothership build for one of his matches vs Coca. XD
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This makes me such a sad Zergling.
"Hey guys, check it out: we can make the strongest ground army imaginable and then add one unit that forces him to go mass anti-air!"
Calling it now: the answer will be banelings. It's always banelings.
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EPT
