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On October 04 2011 03:29 Sm3agol wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2011 03:00 the p00n wrote:On October 04 2011 02:41 Sm3agol wrote:On October 03 2011 21:22 kcdc wrote:
Q: Since (1) a good Z will usually scout the stargate early anyway with an OL sac, (2) you don't really use your gates much, and (3) this part of the build is really short on minerals, have you thought about putting your stargate up front as part of your wall and staying on 2 gates a little longer? I believe it's the minerals that slow down your wall-off and that you have 150 extra gas at this point, and by using the stargate up front, you'd speed up your void ray (which is the key to your defense) by 300 minerals. It could also speed up your phoenix scout and eventually your mothership.
The downsides would be that it would be immediately scouted every game, and it would be the first building killed if Z is ever capable of killing your wall. Something to say about immediate scouting, and maybe I'm missing something in my terrid zerg play, but warpgates and stargates look exactly the same while warping in, so you'll probably have that window of time for a while because 99% of zergs will assume gateway when they see you drop a gateway sized building as part of your wall-off. I know I've never seen someone use a stargate as a wall. The HP bar of stargates is slightly higher compared to the gateway's HP bar. Someone who always has these on will immediately notice a difference, and everyone I meet in ladder clicks buildings anyway out of habit. Well, you're playing in GM league, and I'm not, lol. I know I forget to check often, and have been surprised by fast robos and such fairly often. I know watching zerg streams, I rarely see them physically check everything warping in.
I suspect that for a while, a lot of Z players would just assume it's a gateway or forge until it warps in, but if it turns out that walling off with a stargate is a good, stable build, it will become popular, and then every Z will make sure they know what's warping in. You want to plan your build around what your opponent can do if they play well, and clicking a building is free information. The question is whether giving that information away pays off for the P player who saves 150 minerals on their wall.
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Tried it out vs a GM zerg and he GOT SLAMT (should give u a hint of who I played). It was my first time trying out the build and I did it a bit differently from HUARGH. Feels like with some timing refinements it will be real good. I think by nature this build allows you to take a pretty fast 3rd unless the Zerg is being hyper aggressive or dissects the build pretty well, but your mothership should be out by the time your 3rd finishes anyway so it will be pretty easy to defend.
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On October 04 2011 04:45 Whiplash wrote:
Tried it out vs a GM zerg and he GOT SLAMT (should give u a hint of who I played). It was my first time trying out the build and I did it a bit differently from HUARGH. Feels like with some timing refinements it will be real good. I think by nature this build allows you to take a pretty fast 3rd unless the Zerg is being hyper aggressive or dissects the build pretty well, but your mothership should be out by the time your 3rd finishes anyway so it will be pretty easy to defend.
Could you relay the replay?
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I have a few things to say :
- Thank you for the guide, it's just not only useful, it helps understand the match up. So just for that, thank you OP!
- I fail to see how a mothership is such a great defensive unit Could you please develop? You do overseer sniping while at your base? It's unkillable because it's big? (but so are carriers during mid game) Because there's just a very big timing window where the protoss is weaker right? (during the construction of the mothership)
Anyway, I'll try it as soon as I can!
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I'm freaking out, your line of thinking and the way you express yourself is exactly the way I do. Flippy stuff. I love the build btw, revolutionary. At least at our sub-Korean level.
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Does anyone have a replay of this build that deals with mutas? My apm isn't that good so dealing with the mutas proved to be a huge hassle.
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Anytime someone says "90% winrate" god kills a kitten.
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On October 04 2011 04:44 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2011 03:29 Sm3agol wrote:On October 04 2011 03:00 the p00n wrote:On October 04 2011 02:41 Sm3agol wrote:On October 03 2011 21:22 kcdc wrote:
Q: Since (1) a good Z will usually scout the stargate early anyway with an OL sac, (2) you don't really use your gates much, and (3) this part of the build is really short on minerals, have you thought about putting your stargate up front as part of your wall and staying on 2 gates a little longer? I believe it's the minerals that slow down your wall-off and that you have 150 extra gas at this point, and by using the stargate up front, you'd speed up your void ray (which is the key to your defense) by 300 minerals. It could also speed up your phoenix scout and eventually your mothership.
The downsides would be that it would be immediately scouted every game, and it would be the first building killed if Z is ever capable of killing your wall. Something to say about immediate scouting, and maybe I'm missing something in my terrid zerg play, but warpgates and stargates look exactly the same while warping in, so you'll probably have that window of time for a while because 99% of zergs will assume gateway when they see you drop a gateway sized building as part of your wall-off. I know I've never seen someone use a stargate as a wall. The HP bar of stargates is slightly higher compared to the gateway's HP bar. Someone who always has these on will immediately notice a difference, and everyone I meet in ladder clicks buildings anyway out of habit. Well, you're playing in GM league, and I'm not, lol. I know I forget to check often, and have been surprised by fast robos and such fairly often. I know watching zerg streams, I rarely see them physically check everything warping in. I suspect that for a while, a lot of Z players would just assume it's a gateway or forge until it warps in, but if it turns out that walling off with a stargate is a good, stable build, it will become popular, and then every Z will make sure they know what's warping in. You want to plan your build around what your opponent can do if they play well, and clicking a building is free information. The question is whether giving that information away pays off for the P player who saves 150 minerals on their wall.
The shadow from the Stargate is different I think. It maybe just the hp bar but I can usually tell if my opponent is making a Stargate or Gate/Robo from the look of the warp-in in PvP.
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On October 04 2011 05:07 BDubs wrote:
Does anyone have a replay of this build that deals with mutas? My apm isn't that good so dealing with the mutas proved to be a huge hassle.
Try a 2 base timing attack and just cannon up a lot so he can't base race you, a few archons and a mothership means if he flies close enough to your army and you vortex him then hes finished.
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On October 04 2011 05:11 Whiplash wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2011 05:07 BDubs wrote:
Does anyone have a replay of this build that deals with mutas? My apm isn't that good so dealing with the mutas proved to be a huge hassle. Try a 2 base timing attack and just cannon up a lot so he can't base race you, a few archons and a mothership means if he flies close enough to your army and you vortex him then hes finished.
What patch are you playing in bro? 
Glad to see builds including the mothership, really makes you wonder how much of this game we've actually figured out.
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Weren't you in one of the Day9 dailies? Or someone else with the exact same name 
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This build is awesome!
I maxed out at the 17min mark and he couldnt do anything to me! :D
I'm a high masters zerg and i've been having tons of trouble vs zergs but this build is crazy! And fun too
P.S. zerg raged about imbalance like crazy after this game
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On October 04 2011 05:45 RagePandas2 wrote:This build is awesome! I maxed out at the 17min mark and he couldnt do anything to me! :D I'm a high masters zerg and i've been having tons of trouble vs zergs but this build is crazy! And fun too P.S. zerg raged about imbalance like crazy after this game
Replays!
And thanks to everyone for the compliments.
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How do I upload the replays on to TL?
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what the...
I don't even know if I'm allowed to criticize masters players but... I watched the game against Xaenor. In the time that your mothership is building... your opponent can do two things:
1 - Double expand.
2- Go absolutely all in and kill you.
You would have to build literally... 6+ cannons to hold a huge all in from what I saw in the game vs Xaenor. He had 2k mins floating, and probably around 30 idle larvae, he never droned up his third... I don't even know what that was...
You basically do a 3 gate expand into 5 minutes of no pressure. Your VR/phoenix cannot deny a third off of 1 SG. what if they go 3 base muta? Your mothership cannot keep up with 20 mutas swinging around back and forth from your just started third - main - natural. Which means even more cannons, meaning less units. I'm sorry, but from what I've seen in both Plexa's reps and yours, I cannot see this working against any good Zerg. I'm in freaking Platinum league and I've never floated 2k mins, build 10 roaches for no reason, suicide them all.... I don't even know what Xeanor was doing. I think motherships should always be used late game, but trying to sneak them in early game is just suicidal... You said you were sick of "Well I hope he doesn't scout what I'm doing builds" but that's exactly what this is! You even try to sneak in a hidden fast third but you admit that if it gets scouted you have to cancel.
I'm just confused. How could this have a 90% win rate? Are masters zergs really that bad?
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On October 04 2011 05:53 Flonomenalz wrote:
what the...
I don't even know if I'm allowed to criticize grandmasters players but... I watched the game against Xaenor. In the time that your mothership is building... your opponent can do two things:
1 - Double expand.
2- Go absolutely all in and kill you.
You would have to build literally... 6+ cannons to hold a huge all in from what I saw in the game vs Xaenor. He had 2k mins floating, and probably around 30 idle larvae, he never droned up his third... I don't even know what that was...
You basically do a 3 gate expand into 5 minutes of no pressure. Your VR/phoenix cannot deny a third off of 1 SG. what if they go 3 base muta? Your mothership cannot keep up with 20 mutas swinging around back and forth from your just started third - main - natural. Which means even more cannons, meaning less units. I'm sorry, but from what I've seen in both Plexa's reps and yours, I cannot see this working against any good Zerg. I'm in freaking Platinum league and I've never floated 2k mins, build 10 roaches for no reason, suicide them all.... I don't even know what Xeanor was doing. I think motherships should always be used late game, but trying to sneak them in early game is just suicidal... You said you were sick of "Well I hope he doesn't scout what I'm doing builds" but that's exactly what this is! You even try to sneak in a hidden fast third but you admit that if it gets scouted you have to cancel.
I'm just confused. How could this have a 90% win rate? Are masters zergs really that bad?
If you are on the EU server, I would gladly play you.
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On October 04 2011 05:58 the p00n wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2011 05:53 Flonomenalz wrote:
what the...
I don't even know if I'm allowed to criticize grandmasters players but... I watched the game against Xaenor. In the time that your mothership is building... your opponent can do two things:
1 - Double expand.
2- Go absolutely all in and kill you.
You would have to build literally... 6+ cannons to hold a huge all in from what I saw in the game vs Xaenor. He had 2k mins floating, and probably around 30 idle larvae, he never droned up his third... I don't even know what that was...
You basically do a 3 gate expand into 5 minutes of no pressure. Your VR/phoenix cannot deny a third off of 1 SG. what if they go 3 base muta? Your mothership cannot keep up with 20 mutas swinging around back and forth from your just started third - main - natural. Which means even more cannons, meaning less units. I'm sorry, but from what I've seen in both Plexa's reps and yours, I cannot see this working against any good Zerg. I'm in freaking Platinum league and I've never floated 2k mins, build 10 roaches for no reason, suicide them all.... I don't even know what Xeanor was doing. I think motherships should always be used late game, but trying to sneak them in early game is just suicidal... You said you were sick of "Well I hope he doesn't scout what I'm doing builds" but that's exactly what this is! You even try to sneak in a hidden fast third but you admit that if it gets scouted you have to cancel.
I'm just confused. How could this have a 90% win rate? Are masters zergs really that bad? If you are on the EU server, I would gladly play you.
Unfortunately I'm on NA, I'd love to be wrong about what I've seen. The thing is though, I would know exactly what was coming and all your timings so that would be kind of weird. I'd actually hope for you to beat me because it seems really cool (motherships are always awesome), but I just don't think it's viable.
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http://drop.sc/40263
A replay vs me and Gerbil (very good NA zerg!) he knows its coming. I'm convinced this is a solid build and playstyle, I didn't even execute the build as well as I could have and so much promise shows.
Edit: I also believe that there is a timing toss can do while taking their 4th when they max out (it should be before hive tech) where they can simply run over the zerg.
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EPT
