EPT[G]HUARGH's 90+% winrate PvZ mothership build - Page 6
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Psychominded
United Kingdom14 Posts
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d00fuz
Malaysia129 Posts
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
The downsides would be that it would be immediately scouted every game, and it would be the first building killed if Z is ever capable of killing your wall. | ||
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the p00n
Netherlands615 Posts
On October 03 2011 20:16 d00fuz wrote: Just a question on upgrades, it seems this build relies heavily on archons splash to clean up. After +3 atk would it be better to get shield in order to preserve the archons better or armor for your zealots as it is noticeable that getting archons is very gas intensive and zealots are important in remaxing. Does not really matter, roaches and baneling all have high attack (you are not going to face zerglings for very very obvious reasons). I think shields would be marginally better, but once again, it probably does not really matter that much. | ||
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the p00n
Netherlands615 Posts
On October 03 2011 21:22 kcdc wrote: Q: Since (1) a good Z will usually scout the stargate early anyway with an OL sac, (2) you don't really use your gates much, and (3) this part of the build is really short on minerals, have you thought about putting your stargate up front as part of your wall and staying on 2 gates a little longer? I believe it's the minerals that slow down your wall-off and that you have 150 extra gas at this point, and by using the stargate up front, you'd speed up your void ray (which is the key to your defense) by 300 minerals. It could also speed up your phoenix scout and eventually your mothership. The downsides would be that it would be immediately scouted every game, and it would be the first building killed if Z is ever capable of killing your wall. I have not thought about this at all and thus cannot really give insight on it from a practical point of view, only theorycraft. The timing for the earliest pressure I've faced coincides nicely with the spawning of the void ray, I have not found myself in a situation yet where I've wished my void ray was 30ish seconds earlier. That being said, if he does hit a weird mass speedling timing and denies my expo, I have absolutely no tech and am severely behind. If my stargate would be in my base, I at least have the tech advantage and may be able to delay his 3rd to make up for my nexus cancel. I have a replay of early 1.3, where I play against a player named 'Avekatten' on shattered temple, he is currently in the EU grandmaster league. I was not doing this build back then, but I was doing the 1gate expo into 3gate stargate. He forces a cancel on my nexus, but due to my tech advantage (the void ray) I was able to equalize the game and eventually roll him over, as he could not get a 3rd base up as soon as he'd ideally want to. If I would take this game and imagine my stargate at the front, I would have immediately lost it. A way to bypass this would be to perhaps build the stargate in your base first before your last gateway (or even 2nd gateway). This would slow the sim city though, enlarging the zerg timing window. All in all I'm not really sure. What do you think? | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
On October 03 2011 21:39 the p00n wrote: I have not thought about this at all and thus cannot really give insight on it from a practical point of view, only theorycraft. The timing for the earliest pressure I've faced coincides nicely with the spawning of the void ray, I have not found myself in a situation yet where I've wished my void ray was 30ish seconds earlier. That being said, if he does hit a weird mass speedling timing and denies my expo, I have absolutely no tech and am severely behind. If my stargate would be in my base, I at least have the tech advantage and may be able to delay his 3rd to make up for my nexus cancel. I have a replay of early 1.3, where I play against a player named 'Avekatten' on shattered temple, he is currently in the EU grandmaster league. I was not doing this build back then, but I was doing the 1gate expo into 3gate stargate. He forces a cancel on my nexus, but due to my tech advantage (the void ray) I was able to equalize the game and eventually roll him over, as he could not get a 3rd base up as soon as he'd ideally want to. If I would take this game and imagine my stargate at the front, I would have immediately lost it. A way to bypass this would be to perhaps build the stargate in your base first before your last gateway (or even 2nd gateway). This would slow the sim city though, enlarging the zerg timing window. All in all I'm not really sure. What do you think? Just watched another of your replays. Using a stargate as part of your wall wouldn't lengthen the window where you're vulnerable to speedlings at all because that is limited by minerals. You didn't have 150 gas at the time of the first gateway, so using the SG in the wall would speed the SG up only 150 minerals. You might be able to re-work your chronoboost usage (more on WG research, less on sentries) to have more gas at this timing if having the SG even earlier is better. Another note is that you really don't use your gates AT ALL early on, so completing your wall with only 1 gateway would allow you to could delay your third gate by quite a bit. Depending on what you scout, you might be able to delay the third gate until after your templar tech is building, which would basically mean an extra 150 minerals through that whole teching path. In terms of risk/reward, you have to consider the benefits of that 150 extra minerals against the cost of having the stargate scouted as soon as you put it down and the risk that you lose the stargate (instead of a gateway) at your front. It seems like you're not expecting to do damage with the void ray anyway (beyond an OL here and there), but putting the SG up front will eliminate any chance of damage. Is that a big deal? Also, I've only played maybe 20 games of 1 gate FE vs Z, so I don't know how confident you feel with your ability to defend your walling buildings. In my experience, it's decently safe as long as you're sitting over your expo with your sentries selected. Speeding up the stargate might actually make it safer than going 3 gate first. | ||
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Neim
France2 Posts
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habermas
United Kingdom304 Posts
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Umpteen
United Kingdom1570 Posts
On October 03 2011 03:40 the p00n wrote: http://drop.sc/40041 <--- macro game against roach/hydra aggression including a 3-base push. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/yxZif.jpg) So... did you win? That's what ZvP always looks like  | ||
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
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Sanhadrian
Poland33 Posts
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dae
Canada1600 Posts
On October 04 2011 00:45 FabledIntegral wrote: While I'm not so sure about the actual build, and the title irked me for being heavily sensationalist, I must say, a VERY well written OP imo! This build is simply amazing right now. Aside from some tricky to deal with timings (speedling all-in, Roach burrow timings) I simply can't see myself losing with this. It seems like as soon as your mothership is out you are almost invulnerable to attacks - and you can defend harass so easily. I just don't see a way you can lose once you get the mothership out... I could very very easily see how this build can get 90%+ win ratios because any zerg that tries to macro against it just loses. Brood lords are useless vs this. Infesters a bit better but not enough. EVERY single zerg ground unit just evaporates to 10 +3 archons. Instantly. Right now I don't know if the zergs don't know the proper macro response to this, or if there's a way to beat this 200/200 army. | ||
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UltiBahamut
United States102 Posts
 On certain maps like Shakuras. wouldnt the build seem to flow easier from the currently known forge fast expand to the stargate? Or when you do expand down at your natural. why dont you get the forge then as part of your wall? This would in my opinion help against the potential of burrowed roach timings as you would automatically have cannons up. also helping greatly against any pushes the zerg can do. you would be sacrificing a few zealots and you could potentially get your +1 attack sooner. (This is kind of a mention from kcdc comment of "Another note is that you really don't use your gates AT ALL early on") | ||
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Sm3agol
United States2055 Posts
On October 03 2011 21:22 kcdc wrote: Q: Since (1) a good Z will usually scout the stargate early anyway with an OL sac, (2) you don't really use your gates much, and (3) this part of the build is really short on minerals, have you thought about putting your stargate up front as part of your wall and staying on 2 gates a little longer? I believe it's the minerals that slow down your wall-off and that you have 150 extra gas at this point, and by using the stargate up front, you'd speed up your void ray (which is the key to your defense) by 300 minerals. It could also speed up your phoenix scout and eventually your mothership. The downsides would be that it would be immediately scouted every game, and it would be the first building killed if Z is ever capable of killing your wall. Something to say about immediate scouting, and maybe I'm missing something in my terrid zerg play, but warpgates and stargates look exactly the same while warping in, so you'll probably have that window of time for a while because 99% of zergs will assume gateway when they see you drop a gateway sized building as part of your wall-off. I know I've never seen someone use a stargate as a wall. | ||
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the p00n
Netherlands615 Posts
On October 04 2011 02:31 UltiBahamut wrote: So i have a question about the build order since i only got to try this once or twice against zerg, since i keep getting matched up against protoss. On certain maps like Shakuras. wouldnt the build seem to flow easier from the currently known forge fast expand to the stargate? Or when you do expand down at your natural. why dont you get the forge then as part of your wall? This would in my opinion help against the potential of burrowed roach timings as you would automatically have cannons up. also helping greatly against any pushes the zerg can do. you would be sacrificing a few zealots and you could potentially get your +1 attack sooner. (This is kind of a mention from kcdc comment of "Another note is that you really don't use your gates AT ALL early on") If you are doing a forge expansion (no matter how you transition), you are supposed to immediately lose the game on most maps, especially on shakuras plateau and some nerazim crypt spawn locations due to the easily accessible third base. The zerg will immediately grab a 3rd, make only drones and faceroll your forge expanding ass as if you don't belong in the fucking game. Doing a forge expands forces you to rely on gimmicky play, as it puts you in an absolutely unwinnable situation. I am absolutely baffled by the fact that so many players (especially high level pro koreans) go forge expand. It is the absolute worst build you can do. If you still want to do a forge expansion, I would recommend doing a DT/blink-oriented build with a fast 3rd. | ||
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the p00n
Netherlands615 Posts
On October 04 2011 02:41 Sm3agol wrote: Something to say about immediate scouting, and maybe I'm missing something in my terrid zerg play, but warpgates and stargates look exactly the same while warping in, so you'll probably have that window of time for a while because 99% of zergs will assume gateway when they see you drop a gateway sized building as part of your wall-off. I know I've never seen someone use a stargate as a wall. The HP bar of stargates is slightly higher compared to the gateway's HP bar. Someone who always has these on will immediately notice a difference, and everyone I meet in ladder clicks buildings anyway out of habit. | ||
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Sm3agol
United States2055 Posts
On October 04 2011 03:00 the p00n wrote: The HP bar of stargates is slightly higher compared to the gateway's HP bar. Someone who always has these on will immediately notice a difference, and everyone I meet in ladder clicks buildings anyway out of habit. Well, you're playing in GM league, and I'm not, lol. I know I forget to check often, and have been surprised by fast robos and such fairly often. I know watching zerg streams, I rarely see them physically check everything warping in. | ||
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RabidSeagull
United States220 Posts
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Sabin010
United States1892 Posts
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leveller
Sweden1840 Posts
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